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BrianWilly posted:That's a little naive. There's plenty of evidence to suggest that even a whole mess of people working en masse to solve the issue wouldn't actually solve the issue. Like they've said (repeatedly, ad nasaeum, to the point of irritation), if it were that easy to solve, many of their counterparts on other Earths would've done so by now. What's been drilled into us again and again is that the Illumanati consistently fail to save the world. We've seen that there are different line-ups and different ends, but the secret group meeting for the same reasons and with the same mindset always and consistently fails. Maybe it's just another case of the 616 universe being super special and their Illuminati will succeed where all the others fail, but I think that would cheapen the themes that Hickman is building.
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Jun 15, 2014 00:09
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I didn't get the impression that Black Swan was only referring to Illuminati members when she was talking about the multitudes of failed attempts she's seen before, I assumed she was referring to all kinds of different groups attempting all kinds of different methods. We saw several of these attempts ourselves, didn't we? When different groups of Marvel heroes fought against the Mapmakers or whatever? Not all the destroyed universes even had Illuminatis of their own in the first place, and it'd be a little weird if there's so many potential universes out there and none of them ever simply gathered all their heroes together to try to solve this issue.Codependent Poster posted:This happened! In A+X, he worked with Scott. 
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Jun 15, 2014 00:18
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team overhead smash posted:What's been drilled into us again and again is that the Illumanati consistently fail to save the world. We've seen that there are different line-ups and different ends, but the secret group meeting for the same reasons and with the same mindset always and consistently fails. Yeah, the one constant is that it's always the Illuminati holed up in a basement trying to fix the problem by themselves. Of course, if you were cynical you could point out that The Great Society doesn't exactly seem to be overflowing with members either, they're just a lot more optimistic about the odds of stopping incursions non-violently. But then, we don't know a lot about their stupid fake Earth, maybe it just doesn't have a lot of heroes.
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Jun 15, 2014 00:27
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TwoPair posted:Yeah, the one constant is that it's always the Illuminati holed up in a basement trying to fix the problem by themselves. Of course, if you were cynical you could point out that The Great Society doesn't exactly seem to be overflowing with members either, they're just a lot more optimistic about the odds of stopping incursions non-violently. But then, we don't know a lot about their stupid fake Earth, maybe it just doesn't have a lot of heroes. In the 16.now issue, it states the Great Society came together when their world's previous super-group fell to an invasion (with what appeared to be Kree and Skrull shown). The page showed that Earth's Psylocke, Wolverine, Namor etc getting attacked. It described the Society as outcasts that banded together to save the day. So there at least were other heroes once. One thing I am curious about, is the lack of a Wonder Woman analog among all the big JLA equivalents. We do now know there was a 3rd incursion the Illuminati didn't see, and the Society sure didn't want to talk about it. Madrox fucked around with this message at 00:47 on Jun 15, 2014 |
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Jun 15, 2014 00:39
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Dammit Who? posted:This may be a caaa-raaaazay opinion, but I'm going to say gathering your richest friends together to rule the world in secret because no one else, certainly not the people being ruled, can be trusted to do it is actually evil. I'm... not entirely certain where any incarnation of the Illuminati, much less the current set-up, has done anything one might call "rule the world in secret." Have they done poo poo in secret that maybe other people might have wanted to have an opinion about? Absolutely! But "rule the world?" Seriously? At what point did we start confusing the Marvel Comics Illuminati with the Bavarian Illuminati?
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Jun 15, 2014 04:14
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DivineCoffeeBinge posted:I'm... not entirely certain where any incarnation of the Illuminati, much less the current set-up, has done anything one might call "rule the world in secret." Have they done poo poo in secret that maybe other people might have wanted to have an opinion about? Absolutely! But "rule the world?" Seriously? Yeah, if we already are reading comic books where we accept that vigilantes acting autonomously is alright, then the Illuminati are just a little further down the road from that. They just aren't letting the rest of the vigilantes know about their vigilantism.
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Jun 15, 2014 04:20
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Buddington posted:Yeah, if we already are reading comic books where we accept that vigilantes acting autonomously is alright, then the Illuminati are just a little further down the road from that. They just aren't letting the rest of the vigilantes know about their vigilantism. Well, I mean, I don't want to whitewash what the Illuminati is doing here. There's a very real, very valid argument to be made that that poo poo ain't okay. It's just a far cry from ruling the loving world.
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Jun 15, 2014 04:23
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DivineCoffeeBinge posted:I'm... not entirely certain where any incarnation of the Illuminati, much less the current set-up, has done anything one might call "rule the world in secret." Have they done poo poo in secret that maybe other people might have wanted to have an opinion about? Absolutely! But "rule the world?" Seriously? I actually don't know much about their initial efforts but aside from trying to get rid of the Hulk (which kinda backfired), being guards of the Infinity Gauntlet (a good thing), and now saving Earth and the universe itself from incursions, what else have they done? Like I can kinda get why Cap would be pissed but given the incursions, even if the Avengers were aware of it what could they have done different? At the very best, you'd have Clint applying for Illuminati membership. Widow agreeing 100% with what's going on. Thor may have some issues with it (as shown), but Hyperion loving survived an incursion so he knows what's t stake. Happy Noodle Boy fucked around with this message at 04:27 on Jun 15, 2014 |
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Jun 15, 2014 04:24
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DivineCoffeeBinge posted:Well, I mean, I don't want to whitewash what the Illuminati is doing here. There's a very real, very valid argument to be made that that poo poo ain't okay. I was mostly agreeing with you, I'm not saying it's two thumbs up.
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Jun 15, 2014 04:25
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:I actually don't know much about their initial efforts but aside from trying to get rid of the Hulk (which kinda backfired), being guards of the Infinity Gauntlet (a good thing), and now saving Earth and the universe itself from incursions, what else have they done? Like I can kinda get why Cap would be pissed but given the incursions, even if the Avengers were aware of it what could they have done different? At the very best, you'd have Clint applying for Illuminati membership. Widow agreeing 100% with what's going on. Thor may have some issues with it (as shown), but Hyperion loving survived an incursion so he knows what's t stake. Clint Barton would HATE what the Illuminati was doing. Which I think is evidenced by Old Clint hating the poo poo out of Tony Stark.
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Jun 15, 2014 04:36
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:I actually don't know much about their initial efforts but aside from trying to get rid of the Hulk (which kinda backfired), being guards of the Infinity Gauntlet (a good thing), and now saving Earth and the universe itself from incursions, what else have they done? Like I can kinda get why Cap would be pissed but given the incursions, even if the Avengers were aware of it what could they have done different? At the very best, you'd have Clint applying for Illuminati membership. Widow agreeing 100% with what's going on. Thor may have some issues with it (as shown), but Hyperion loving survived an incursion so he knows what's t stake. I don't think the rest of the Avengers would sign right on - I think many of them, honestly, would start sounding a lot more like Sun God up there. They have hope. Remember that almost every member of the current Illuminati has been driven to cynicism by recent events: --Tony Stark had to erase his own brain and then while he was still coming to grips with what a dick he'd been, he had basically his whole life torn down by Ezekiel Stane and oh yeah he recently found out his own backstory is bullshit. --Beast watched the man he idolized, Charles Xavier, get murdered by a Phoenix-possessed Cyclops, then he tried to make things better by loving with the timeline of the original five X-Men and only made things worse and more dangerous. --Black Panther had to abdicate his throne to become King of the Dead, and from that position has watched Wakanda's vibranium reserves - the thing that has allowed them to remain a viable world power - go away. --Namor was possessed by the Phoenix and sort of murdered a lot of Wakandans, and before he could really manage to come to grips with what he'd done as one of the Phoenix Five, Wakandan strike teams massacred basically every Atlantean they could find. --Doctor Strange's recent history has (tragically, and often as a result of poor writing) been an endless cavalcade of fuckups, things he should have stopped but didn't, things he should have done but couldn't. He lost the mantle of Sorcerer Supreme for a long while and only regained it after being willing to use black magic. --Black Bolt has never been a hero, only a King - and he's laying low after deliberately loving up the entire Inhuman social structure and causing a worldwide eruption of new superhumans, and his place has basically been taken by Maximus the loving Mad. Hell, the only one of the group you could plausibly claim hasn't had reason to be cynical lately is Reed Richards - and Richards has always been the guy who will let his intellectual conclusions get in the way of what he knows to be right. In essence, all of the Illuminati (with the potential exception of Banner, who only just now showed up) are trying the "hard men making hard choices" act because they've lost faith in traditional superheroics. They no longer believe, as Sun God does, that hope is enough, that doing the right thing no matter the cost is the way to go. Cap believed that, so they had to mindwipe him and kick him out of the group - not because he would have stopped them, but because he would have shown them all what they had forgotten - namely faith. The Illuminati aren't 'evil' - they're broken. And I would bet, from what I've seen of Hickman's work thus far, that he wouldn't be doing such a damned fine job of showing us how broken they are if he didn't intend for a redemption arc down the line. The payoff is going to be that the Illuminati stop being such dicks, I'm betting, and knowing Hickman it'll be told so well that it may even stick for a bit.
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Jun 15, 2014 04:58
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I can't wait until the two series dovetail, and we see Captain Universe and Starbrand in an issue of New Avengers.
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Jun 15, 2014 05:03
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My fear is that while he may play towards redemption, not everyone is going to reach it. Namor, T'Challa, Black Bolt (who has been surprisingly absent in this incursion), and Strange are playing waaaaaay too close for comfort. 616-Reed is hanging on thanks to his family which is the one thing that makes him Special. Tony is Tony no matter where (there's a reason there's ALWAYS an Iron Man in every variant Illuminati). Beast I don't know enough to comment but he's hosed up plenty of things. Banner got played a bad hand and is doing what he can with it. Assuming the story is leading towards a merger between Avengers/New Avengers (how could it not), I'm excited to see how the world of the world comes to terms with what the Illuminati have done for the sake of saving everything. Like how do you condemn those that have done horrible things when those horrible things are the reason you still exist?
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Jun 15, 2014 05:16
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DivineCoffeeBinge posted:The Illuminati aren't 'evil' - they're broken. And I would bet, from what I've seen of Hickman's work thus far, that he wouldn't be doing such a damned fine job of showing us how broken they are if he didn't intend for a redemption arc down the line. The payoff is going to be that the Illuminati stop being such dicks, I'm betting, and knowing Hickman it'll be told so well that it may even stick for a bit. Not for nothing, but there are a few issues here 1. Doc Strange became Sorcerer Supreme again during the last arc of Bendis's New Avengers, not in this one; it had nothing to do with him selling his soul for the Words of Power. 2. Beast joined the Illuminati _before_ his time travel gambit, since he was pre-new-form in the first arc of NA. 3. Panther stated in Hickman's F4 arc that they'd actually quickly recovered from the loss of vibranium. He said this to Reed Richards pre-Incursions; he has no reason to lie. 4. Maximus hasn't taken control of Inhuman society; he's presumed dead as much as Black Bolt is. Medusa's running that show. 5. Saying Tony's "backstory is bullshit" is pretty disingenuous; he found out he was adopted. He's still Tony Stark, raised the same way with the same parents etc. Saying otherwise is some weird nature>nurture poo poo I can't get down with, and can't imagine Gillen or Hickman would be down with either. Namor and T'Challa, sure, they are hosed UP, but everyone else was actually in a pretty healthy place at the beginning of New Avengers.
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Jun 15, 2014 06:52
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d00gZ posted:Not for nothing, but there are a few issues here Doc became SS again in Bendis' final run, yes - after he utilized black magic while unafraid and accepting of the consequences. The Ancient One's shade/vision/avatar/whatever explicitly said that he was not ready to regain the mantle of the Sorcerer Supreme until he was ready to overcome this final hurdle within himself (or something along those lines; I don't have the issue in front of me). Maximus hasn't taken Bolt's place in Inhuman society, but he's taken it in the Illuminati. Tony's finding out he was adopted doesn't change who he is, no - but if you don't think "found out he was adopted" is the kind of thing that has severe psychological repercussions, questioning of one's self-identity, et cetera... well, suffice it to say that that's the sort of thing that most of the people I know who discovered their adoption later in life (as opposed to having parents who were open about it from day one) have had to deal with. But yeah, you're right - a lot of the Illuminati were in a healthy place at the beginning of NA's current volume. None of them - some as a result of things happening in their own books, some as a result of things happening in NA itself - have stayed there, which is sort of my point; being in the Illuminati is slowly but surely breaking these people, it's grinding them down. This, I suspect, is a part of what Hickman means when he says that the theme of Avengers is Life and the theme of New Avengers is Death - there are metaphorical deaths, too, and the Illuminati are experiencing several of them as we watch. ...alternatively, I may be overthinking it a bit; Hickman's plotting and writing style is the kind of story I love, and I enjoy reading into the psychological ramifications perhaps a bit overmuch, it must be admitted. Still, I think it bears noting that 'being in the Illuminati is doing Bad Things to these characters' is a fairly significant plot point that's going to pay off in the end. At least, I hope so.
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Jun 15, 2014 07:23
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The whole reason the Illuminati are keeping things hush-hush was pretty much directly outlined when they brought Cap in (and being re-lampshaded with Sun God). When you have no other option but commit planetary genocide to save the Earth, a lot of people are going to go with the 'hope' plan and it's a pretty big ask to have the entire thing rest on optimism. The Illuminati are basically an organization that is set up to perform what they see as a necessary evil for what they see as a greater good, avoiding dragging anyone else down (hence the secrecy) or leaving anything up to chance and optimism (hence this particular collection of dour moral relativists). Cabbit fucked around with this message at 07:56 on Jun 15, 2014 |
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Jun 15, 2014 07:54
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Necessary evil is still evil.
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Jun 15, 2014 09:14
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Yes, I think it's already been laid out that Cap's way is superior. There is really no way that the Avengers should have had an impact in Infinity, the logical rational approach says they shouldn't because they were a dozen or so people in a massive galactic conflict and they had struggled to beat even two servants of the builders. Despite this they turned their enemies into allies (while the Illuminati can't trust Swan and are being betrayed by Maximus), had the key role in saving the Earth and the entire galaxy and once that danger had been resolved their approach had in turn left them stronger and in a better position to fight back effectively against Thanos as they now had a massive alien armada on their side (While the Illuminati's actions endangered earth as Thanos' servants almost detonated the planet killers). The Illuminati got rid of Steve because they couldn't share his hope that by doing their best (in terms of effort and morality) they could win the day, but that belief is exactly what won the day in Infinity.
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Jun 15, 2014 09:51
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If only the Skrulls had won the Secret Invasion because even those evangelical douchebags would've just evacuated Earth, blew it up and moved everybody to Mars.
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Jun 15, 2014 10:57
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Fuckstick Electric posted:If only the Skrulls had won the Secret Invasion because even those evangelical douchebags would've just evacuated Earth, blew it up and moved everybody to Mars. And even then if only it had been established in Fantastic Four that Reed/Earth scientists had the ability to great a whole other new Earth and move people on to it.
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Jun 15, 2014 11:07
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Waterhaul posted:And even then if only it had been established in Fantastic Four that Reed/Earth scientists had the ability to great a whole other new Earth and move people on to it. Reed only has time for a costume change.
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Jun 15, 2014 11:32
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I'm having a bit of trouble getting the current timeline of Avengers stuff and tie-ins straight. Is it Cap and the Illuminati stop an Incursion but break the Infinity Gauntlet in the process, then they mind-wipe Cap > Uatu gets ganked, Orb uses the Watcher's eye like a flashbang and then Cap realizes that Tony had Strange clean his clock > Cap goes to confront Tony with a bunch of Avengers, then the Time Gem that Cap broke/disappeared reappears and whisks them off to the future and finally > the Illuminati is now confronting the not-JLA at an Incursion point? I look at it and it doesn't seem right. I am so confused.
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Jun 15, 2014 13:51
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First Bass posted:I'm having a bit of trouble getting the current timeline of Avengers stuff and tie-ins straight. Is it Cap and the Illuminati stop an Incursion but break the Infinity Gauntlet in the process, then they mind-wipe Cap > Uatu gets ganked, Orb uses the Watcher's eye like a flashbang and then Cap realizes that Tony had Strange clean his clock > Cap goes to confront Tony with a bunch of Avengers, then the Time Gem that Cap broke/disappeared reappears and whisks them off to the future and finally > the Illuminati is now confronting the not-JLA at an Incursion point? I look at it and it doesn't seem right. I am so confused. Yeah, other stuff has happened as well but everything you put there is in the right chronological order.
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Jun 15, 2014 14:53
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Someone mentioning the Cancerverse in the Badass Panels thread made me think- has it been shown what Shuma-Gorath and company are doing during this whole event? I know Shuma himself showed up in Mighty Avengers, but that was like the usual kinda invasion. Like do Shuma-Gorath and company just not give a gently caress if a universe gets blown up because they own so drat many and can hop universes easily? Being in the dark about the state of the rest of the multiverse is a core part of the New Avengers arc so I'm assuming the answer is no but I'm really wondering what the heck some of the most powerful dudes in the multiverse are doing during this event. What I'm saying here is show me the Avengers and Shuma-Gorath teamup show!
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Jun 15, 2014 15:09
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He's over in the Capcom universe.
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Jun 15, 2014 16:13
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Fereydun posted:Someone mentioning the Cancerverse in the Badass Panels thread made me think- has it been shown what Shuma-Gorath and company are doing during this whole event? I wouldn't be surprised to see the Map Makers get introduced as the next thing they have to deal with at some point in the near future. Doom has a piece of the world they annihilated and I could see Hickman doing a "Doom reforms The Cabal" with the intent of figuring out what has gone wrong, they build a bridge using the piece of the destroyed Earth which accidentally unleashes the Map Makers on Earth.
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Jun 15, 2014 16:39
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I think you mean Doom defeats and eliminates the Map Makers 
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Jun 15, 2014 16:48
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:I think you mean Doom defeats and eliminates the Map Makers I was trying not to spoil the ending for people, but Doom has the situation well in hand until Richards shows up and steals all the glory like he always does.
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Jun 15, 2014 18:39
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First Bass posted:I'm having a bit of trouble getting the current timeline of Avengers stuff and tie-ins straight. Is it Cap and the Illuminati stop an Incursion but break the Infinity Gauntlet in the process, then they mind-wipe Cap > Uatu gets ganked, Orb uses the Watcher's eye like a flashbang and then Cap realizes that Tony had Strange clean his clock > Cap goes to confront Tony with a bunch of Avengers, then the Time Gem that Cap broke/disappeared reappears and whisks them off to the future and finally > the Illuminati is now confronting the not-JLA at an Incursion point? I look at it and it doesn't seem right. I am so confused.
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Jun 15, 2014 19:33
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team overhead smash posted:What's been drilled into us again and again is that the Illumanati consistently fail to save the world. We've seen that there are different line-ups and different ends, but the secret group meeting for the same reasons and with the same mindset always and consistently fails. The Illuminati proper fails. During the FF Dark Reign mini, Reed used the bridge to see successful Illuminatis and they are all successful only because he either blackmails or kills the other members.
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Jun 16, 2014 17:25
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Mr Impossible on the Venture Bros is really closer to Reed than it looks.
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Jun 16, 2014 18:55
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team overhead smash posted:Yes, I think it's already been laid out that Cap's way is superior. There is really no way that the Avengers should have had an impact in Infinity, the logical rational approach says they shouldn't because they were a dozen or so people in a massive galactic conflict and they had struggled to beat even two servants of the builders. I so agree with this post. The only thing I would like to add to this is that the Builders entire plot, was essentially the same goal/methods as the Illuminati. They knew that the Universes were breaking, and decided that they had to be HARD Only rather than blow up other Earths to save the 616 Earth, the Builders wanted to blow up 616 Earth to save the 616 Universe. Incidentally, one discussion I haven't seen. The interplay between Avengers 30 and New Avengers 19. My understanding of the events are
Anything else I missed?
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Jun 16, 2014 21:22
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So here's the thing I'm wondering: Maximus seems to be cool with the Illuminati but really isn't doing any work for them. Every time he speaks during a group conversation they seem to dismiss him or ignore him. He seems to be more apart of Black Bolt's plan to both be "dead" as part of the fallout of Inhumanity. So why would the Illuminati not like, lock him up or put him in a coma or something, when they all leave? Don't they know leaving him with Thanos, Swan, and a former Galactus herald probably isn't a good idea?
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Jun 17, 2014 18:05
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notthegoatseguy posted:So here's the thing I'm wondering: Maximus seems to be cool with the Illuminati but really isn't doing any work for them. Every time he speaks during a group conversation they seem to dismiss him or ignore him. He seems to be more apart of Black Bolt's plan to both be "dead" as part of the fallout of Inhumanity. So why would the Illuminati not like, lock him up or put him in a coma or something, when they all leave? Don't they know leaving him with Thanos, Swan, and a former Galactus herald probably isn't a good idea? I think he proved himself as reliable in Infinity and in the run up to it, as well as having Black Bolt vouching for him (Which is just something Black Bolt seems to do because... whatever).
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Jun 17, 2014 18:48
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team overhead smash posted:I think he proved himself as reliable in Infinity and in the run up to it, as well as having Black Bolt vouching for him (Which is just something Black Bolt seems to do because... whatever). I seem to remember Maximus being important and helpful to Black Bolt in War of Kings, but I can't actually think of why that is. Most of that event has disappeared from my brain. Oh yeah, he also stopped the destruction of the world, via one of the horrible things the Illuminati built. Air Skwirl fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Jun 17, 2014 |
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Jun 17, 2014 19:07
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From NA#2 Could this be the upcoming battle? That sure looks like Superman and Wonder Woman in the background.
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Jun 17, 2014 19:35
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That looks like Hyperion and a random negative zone bug? That short sequence in NA still confuses me. Was it a flash forward or other incursions from other universes? I'm guessing the latter.
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Jun 17, 2014 20:21
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:That looks like Hyperion and a random negative zone bug? That short sequence in NA still confuses me. Was it a flash forward or other incursions from other universes? I'm guessing the latter. I think it was a flash forward but some of the designs might have not been finalized yet. Also rereading Avengers #30 I just realized that Tony had Strange implant the idea of how the new Avengers team was going to work. Missed that the first time.
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Jun 17, 2014 20:37
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Senor Candle posted:I think it was a flash forward but some of the designs might have not been finalized yet. redbackground fucked around with this message at 21:27 on Jun 17, 2014 |
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Jun 17, 2014 21:25
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Senor Candle posted:I think it was a flash forward but some of the designs might have not been finalized yet. How's that? Strange isn't in 30 at all?
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Jun 18, 2014 11:33
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