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Business Gorillas posted:Is a CSM Tzeentch/Tzeentch Daemons army gonna be any good if I actually do this terrible hobby? If you abuse the 7th Edition Daemon Summoning rules, which Tzeentch can do better than anyone, your army will be terrifying. Both in its effectiveness on the battlefield and how much it will cost you to buy all the models you'll be able to summon. Even if you don't abuse the rules and just go for a moderate number of summoned daemons you'll still dominate the Psyker phase and be able to use your powers more or less at will while mostly being able to neuter your opponent's Psykers. So yeah, it's a very competitive army if played with restraint. It can break the game if pushed to its logical extreme. It's good. EDIT: Top of the page. We'll make it topical: 
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Jun 15, 2014 17:49
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Business Gorillas posted:Is a CSM Tzeentch/Tzeentch Daemons army gonna be any good if I actually do this terrible hobby? While Tzeentch demons can break the game through summoning spam, Tzeentch CSM are a little gimped on their own. Most units don't benefit from the Mark of Tzeentch much so it's not worth applying to things like basic marines, bikers, raptors, chosen, etc. Terminators and Obliterators (and Warp Talons  ) get a decent invulnerable save out of it though the Mark of Nurgle is probably better for them. I'm not really sure how Thousand Sons perform at the moment since it's pretty rare to see people take them. They're pricy and slow, but they do have a baby sorcerer, AP3 bolters, and a 4+ invulnerable. Unfortunately, they die just as easily as regular marines to bolters. I kind of miss when they had 2 wounds each.Trying to run Grey Knights as counts-as Thousand Sons with demon allies would be difficult. While it's technically possible, they'd be the worst level of allies and don't synergize well. Grey Knights have a bunch of wargear that messes up demons and now they generate powers from the Sanctic table which is intended as the polar opposite of the summoning one. Edit: And even if it is counts-as, that'd just be plain wrong. 
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Jun 15, 2014 18:16
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There's nothing quite like watching Asdrubael Vect punch himself to death while your Necron Overlord bops him with a stick.
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Jun 15, 2014 18:37
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panascope posted:There's nothing quite like watching Asdrubael Vect punch himself to death while your Necron Overlord bops him with a stick. As much as I love Mindshackle Scarabs, I look forward to the wailing and gnashing of teeth when it is eventually nerfed (it will be). All Necron players tack on the 15pt upgrade and call it a day. It's fantastic how long the Necron codex has translated between editions, but I can't imagine it sticking around in the next book (or at least not being 25-30pts).
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Jun 15, 2014 18:51
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PierreTheMime posted:As much as I love Mindshackle Scarabs, I look forward to the wailing and gnashing of teeth when it is eventually nerfed (it will be). All Necron players tack on the 15pt upgrade and call it a day. It's fantastic how long the Necron codex has translated between editions, but I can't imagine it sticking around in the next book (or at least not being 25-30pts). Never underestimate GW
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Jun 15, 2014 19:06
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I am on the fence regarding a new necron codex. The current one is so full of cheesy crap that makes the people you play furious. Crap like almost free mindshackle scarabs, annihilation barges, wraiths and night scythes will most likely have to go. On the other hand if you make the cheap/unfair stuff really expensive or make it go away you are left with a pretty lovely codex. There is a reason the almost never used units are almost never used. A lot of it is bad, it is just not that the really good stuff is a little better. Cheesy crap will most lilekely get axed, I am just a bit worried that I will be left with nothing but turds when the good stuff gets removed.
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Jun 15, 2014 19:19
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Yeah , I'm not looking forward to a new Necron Codex at all, but thankfully they still have at least 3 more codexes before Necrons. Orks, then probably Blood Angels, then probably Dark Eldar or Necrons is pretty much the choice or Space Wolves.
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Jun 15, 2014 19:48
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Hollismason posted:I think that the main problem with the rules of 40k are that people do not actually understand the rules of grammar at all. As I understand, lots of Greek statues of their gods exhibited both male and female characteristics, like breasts with a beard--some of these models (except that Nurgle-y looking omnivorous vagina atrocity  ) that could serve as Slaanesh daemon princes and what not would be great if they possessed a similar aesthetic--a little bit unnerving to all. I recall one of my friends has one with distinctly male and female physiques on the model, and she loves the hell out of it: the chest has one well-defined breast of each gender, but the shoulders are bulkier and stuff. Androgynous Slaaneshi demons are the way to go, IMO. Of course, her daemonette she made look like a blue-skinned, wicked "male gaze"-inspired clone of her girlfriend with daemon wings, so take that as you will.Bonus: include all the drug and punk-rock paraphernalia on the androgynous models. If it looks like it's just "too much," then so be it as it contributes to the theme.
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Jun 15, 2014 20:02
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Ratflinger posted:I am on the fence regarding a new necron codex. The current one is so full of cheesy crap that makes the people you play furious. Crap like almost free mindshackle scarabs, annihilation barges, wraiths and night scythes will most likely have to go. On the other hand if you make the cheap/unfair stuff really expensive or make it go away you are left with a pretty lovely codex. There is a reason the almost never used units are almost never used. A lot of it is bad, it is just not that the really good stuff is a little better. All of those models have recent, great looking, plastic kits. They aren't going to just vanish. They all need a points increase though. Shackles can only get a points increase, if they made them worse like going to a normal LD test, they wouldn't be worth taking. They were clearly written with challenges in mind but they are too good for 15 points. They probably also need to be restricted to Overlords and D. Lords as well. Business Gorillas posted:Is a CSM Tzeentch/Tzeentch Daemons army gonna be any good if I actually do this terrible hobby? I play a balanced all gods Daemons army and I would really suggest not jumping in all the way with them right away. If you really wanted to, I would suggest CSM main with a Tzeentch ally or do a 50/50 split. Daemons can be really drat good depending on if you want to push Daemon Summoning to the point of game breaking. They are also a serious nightmare to play sometimes, trying to remember everything you have to do, everything you have to roll, depending on entirely random rolls for psyker powers and rewards, balancing your warp charges (which will disappear faster than people think) and also trying to remember and learn the main rules of the game can get a bit overwhelming and frustrating sometimes. Also even though they can be a really powerful army supported by psyker powers, they are still an assault based army with very little non-psyker shooting and shooting is still king of the hill. 7e didn't really change anything to make assault any better than it was in 6e. Pacheeco fucked around with this message at 20:31 on Jun 15, 2014 |
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Jun 15, 2014 20:18
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Pacheeco posted:All of those models have recent, great looking, plastic kits. They aren't going to just vanish. They all need a points increase though. Shackles can only get a points increase, if they made them worse like going to a normal LD test, they wouldn't be worth taking. They were clearly written with challenges in mind but they are too good for 15 points. They probably also need to be restricted to Overlords and D. Lords. (may have messed up quote on phone) Sure, mindshackle could be more expensive and kits will not disappear. My point is that if make the good stuff worse or more expensive the codex will be bad. Currently 6 lychguards/praetorians cost as much as 6 wraiths with three whipcoils. Yet they are nowhere equal in how effective they are. The necron codex is in my opinion filled with cheesy and underpriced crap, but if you remove that you are left with just crap.
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Jun 15, 2014 20:28
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Hey gang, here are some lovely out of focus pics of some of the stuff I'm working on. I'm really digging the Battle for Armageddon thing I've got going on with my armies now. I'm thinking about having the Blood Angels allies for my Steel Legion being an all drop pod army. I've got an old metal dread, two plasma tac squads and a melta toting assault squad. All I need is 3 pods and I'll have a pretty slick army.  
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Jun 15, 2014 20:35
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God this thread moves fast. You're right. Its the sci-fi stuff I was interested in (having played Dawn of War), I didn't realise there was a different line. That much of a beginner. Thanks for the heads up 
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Jun 15, 2014 20:42
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Business Gorillas posted:Is a CSM Tzeentch/Tzeentch Daemons army gonna be any good if I actually do this terrible hobby? My CSM army is Tzeentch-based with allied Tzeentch daemons. It works in 7th, but it's mainly the demons that do the heavy lifting since Tzeentch units from CSM aren't all that hot. Ahriman and Thousand Sons are way too expensive for what they do. Mark of Tzeentch is pretty awful on anything that doesn't already have an invulnerable save and even on units that do have an invulnerable save Mark of Nurgle is usually better. Meanwhile Tzeentch daemons are all pretty good (except the Burning Chariot) and can be absolutely ridiculous if you go whole hog on daemon summoning. I find it makes for a pretty decent friendly list since the powerful Daemons are balanced by the CSM side not being all that hot. If you're looking for a competitive list you might as well go all out on Daemons.
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Jun 15, 2014 20:57
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Ojetor posted:My CSM army is Tzeentch-based with allied Tzeentch daemons. It works in 7th, but it's mainly the demons that do the heavy lifting since Tzeentch units from CSM aren't all that hot. Ahriman and Thousand Sons are way too expensive for what they do. Mark of Tzeentch is pretty awful on anything that doesn't already have an invulnerable save and even on units that do have an invulnerable save Mark of Nurgle is usually better. Meanwhile Tzeentch daemons are all pretty good (except the Burning Chariot) and can be absolutely ridiculous if you go whole hog on daemon summoning. The Burning Chariot is actually pretty solid now, as Chariots allow the rider to fire as if they haven't moved. The Exalted Flamer as an HQ choice is way better/cheaper, but he Chariot is a decent choice for 100pts.
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Jun 15, 2014 21:04
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Had a 3-person mini-tournament at Warhammer World today, came in second but got to see Mechanicum (the winning army) in person for the first time. There's a new City Fight table there, too:    Yep, the doors swing open and shut    Don't know if the top comes off but it looks like it might Also picked up the Daemons codex to use with my CSM summoning stuff, munitorum dice to use as objective markers/hull points on a whim and a couple more technical paints to try out. There was a Throne of Skulls tournament going on, some really nicely painted models and armies. Also, Bugman's got rid of the Belly Buster!! BOOO!!! Had to have the Fat Bloke with curly fries and a bucket of onion rings to make my own Bellybuster combo.
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Jun 15, 2014 21:23
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PierreTheMime posted:The Burning Chariot is actually pretty solid now, as Chariots allow the rider to fire as if they haven't moved. The Exalted Flamer as an HQ choice is way better/cheaper, but he Chariot is a decent choice for 100pts. It's still an open-topped 10/10/10 vehicle with an 18" range gun. It will get blown up as soon as it moves into firing range. I'd much rather bring a predator with 3 reliable lascannons, 13 front armor and 30" extra range for 40 more points.
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Jun 15, 2014 21:27
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e. Forums wonkiness double post
Ojetor fucked around with this message at 22:41 on Jun 15, 2014 |
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Jun 15, 2014 21:27
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krushgroove posted:Had a 3-person mini-tournament at Warhammer World today, came in second but got to see Mechanicum (the winning army) in person for the first time. I have played apocalypse on that table, and honestly we found it quite hard to manage. In retrospect I should have booked one of the flatter ones. That density of buildings is actually really hard to play on in a game as crowded with models as warhammer.
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Jun 15, 2014 21:51
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It gets jink now and can gain a 4+ rerollable on 1 save if its near Cursed Earth. Also, it has a ST5 AP3 Torrent. That's not bad for a 100 points. I use my Necron on a CCB now as one and it works pretty well. (sup proxy people). Also since we've played Maelstrom I've released that no in fact while it's awesome in principle someone getting 7 VPs on the first turn before doing anything sucks dick. My friends and I were playing with 3, now it's down to two, and now it's looking like it'll go down to one but your able to discard at the beginning of the phase. Hollismason fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Jun 15, 2014 |
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Jun 15, 2014 21:51
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Ratflinger posted:(may have messed up quote on phone) Well theoretically they'll try to improve the bad stuff at the same time so that everything is priced appropriately, creating a balanced book where all choices are worth considering. I've never seen a book where they just upped the prices on all the previously good units and called it a day. And necrons having a bunch of cheap tricks up their sleeves is both iconic of their race and how they're compensated for not having psykers. If anything they'll probably get more wacky arcane technology.
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Jun 15, 2014 22:23
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ghetto wormhole posted:Well theoretically they'll try to improve the bad stuff at the same time so that everything is priced appropriately, creating a balanced book where all choices are worth considering. I've never seen a book where they just upped the prices on all the previously good units and called it a day. Are we talking about the same company? I seriously suspect Nighscythes to go up in price to the 120 to 150 range. Tomb Spyders losing the ability to be in squads, Tesla rules completely changed.
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Jun 15, 2014 22:37
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krushgroove posted:There's a new City Fight table there, too: Why yes my gaming table did cost one billion dollars why do you ask?
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Jun 15, 2014 22:57
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My first thought on seeing that game table was, "Is it finished?" It's very grey.
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Jun 15, 2014 23:04
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Boon posted:My first thought on seeing that game table was, "Is it finished?" Yeah I just went through this with my table and I ended up painting the roads black, which dramatically improved the visual quality of the table.
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Jun 15, 2014 23:47
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Cooked Auto posted:What is it with French Bitz stores being awesome? Because now I've found another store that has a separate Demolisher turret in stock so I can magnetize that for my Punisher and Executioner guns that I've got left over from my previous one. The punisher bits wont go onto a demolisher turret without a fair bit of effort, especially if you want to magnetise both sets of guns. You'll probably be doing interior complete with hello kitty seat covers and breasts hanging off the hull so it won't be too much effort to do it while you have the putty out. I kid, I kid.
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Jun 16, 2014 00:37
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Ojetor posted:My CSM army is Tzeentch-based with allied Tzeentch daemons. It works in 7th, but it's mainly the demons that do the heavy lifting since Tzeentch units from CSM aren't all that hot. Ahriman and Thousand Sons are way too expensive for what they do. Mark of Tzeentch is pretty awful on anything that doesn't already have an invulnerable save and even on units that do have an invulnerable save Mark of Nurgle is usually better. Meanwhile Tzeentch daemons are all pretty good (except the Burning Chariot) and can be absolutely ridiculous if you go whole hog on daemon summoning. I was gonna do mostly CSM with Daemons. I lurk the thread pretty hard and I know that Tzeentch Daemons are bananas and that Thousand Sons aren't great, so they'd sort of even themselves out. I'll mostly be doing casual games and if I get some neckbeard I can just start summoning hardcore. What would be the best way to play 1k Sons, in Rhinos or something? I don't know anything about 40k but I'm pretty familiar with Fantasy, so I imagine that I'll pick up 40k pretty quick.
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Jun 16, 2014 00:57
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Fat Turkey posted:God this thread moves fast. The problem now becomes there is no cheap (relatively) start set out for 7th edition. The Dark Vengance is still being sold but it still have 6th ed rules in it. The models are still excellent, and if you want to play Dark Angels or Chaos Marine can give you a decent core of an army. I have been told directly from friends who still work for GW is that Dark Vegances will be repackaged with the new rules, but I have no reason to doubt them, not taking it as an opportunity to make a new starter set with new, cool models that will sell seems very unGW like. For now, if money is no object, the way to go is get the rules box, comes with a rulebook and 2 books of background and hobby stuff. After that, figure out what army you want to start out with. Honestly, as long as you are an adult with an ability to comprehend rules, no army is a bad starter army, just some that take more effort than others to figure out. Though I'd say stick to the ones that have newer, hardcover codexes. Lots of people start with a flavor of marines, but there's nothing stopping someone from starting with guard, or tau or eldar, basically, choose what you like. There's nothing worse than having to spend hours painting models you don't like because some internet min maxer said they were the best. Once you choose a codex, you need to start your force. With Unbound, you can literally buy whatever you want, but its probably best to buy a bound army, that is an army that follows a force organization chart. The basic of that is an HQ and 2 troops. From there you can add assault troops, elite troops, heavy support guys, tanks, aircraft, giant robots and monsters. That's the basics of collecting right now. Unless you want to start playing ASAP, i'd recommend waiting a little while before jumping whole hog and waiting for the next starter set.
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Jun 16, 2014 01:21
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Drythe posted:What can I use Valkyies for? I see some for cheap and don't know if I want them The Valkyrie is actually a pretty respectable flyer these days- with a good transport capacity and good anti-infantry guns, it can be very versatile in its duties and the ability to go into hover mode means it can keep in the action longer than other flyers in a pinch. The Multiple Rocket Pods option is the only realistic choice for the hardpoints on the wings, though with the price bump on the Heavy Bolter sponsons they are arguable whether or not you need to take them as well. (I prefer having maximum guns available, so I say go for it.) If you have some Lascannons laying around from other projects- such as Heavy Weapons Teams, Razorbacks, etc- magnetizing one into a Vendetta is also quite easy to do. They Valkyrie/Vendetta aren't nearly as unfair as they were previously, but they are still very good vehicles. I think most IG armies can make good use of them if they want to. Business Gorillas posted:Is a CSM Tzeentch/Tzeentch Daemons army gonna be any good if I actually do this terrible hobby? CSM Tzeentch don't have a lot of hugely strong options, but they do get a few nice tricks to play around with, especially if you make use of the Black Legion or Crimson Slaughter supplements. Depending on how competitive you actually want to be, they can do some neat stuff. And everyone loves Cultists standing on a Skyshield for a 3++. Tzeentch Daemons are still pretty solid, even if you don't use them (too much) for summoning shenanigans. Spamming out Flickering Fire in huge numbers isn't nearly as strong (or possible) now, but Chaos Psychic Focus means that your Horror squads will not only have Flickering Fire but also another potentially-useful power as well, which is a big boon. Pretty much all of the Tzeentch daemons are very solid units, though Flamers and the Chariot could stand to be better (even if they aren't horrible.) Bringing in Grey Knights for counts-as is certainly a viable option and even relatively strong from a mechanical perspective; you would lose out on some of the tricks that CSM can do, but overall it will be a more effective way to generate warp charge if that's something you're worried about. I would recommend browsing the CSM and GK books to see if there are anything in either of them that strike your fancy in terms of cool mechanical effects; both of them can be useful in a pairing, but they will work in very different ways when combined with Daemons. PierreTheMime posted:As much as I love Mindshackle Scarabs, I look forward to the wailing and gnashing of teeth when it is eventually nerfed (it will be). All Necron players tack on the 15pt upgrade and call it a day. It's fantastic how long the Necron codex has translated between editions, but I can't imagine it sticking around in the next book (or at least not being 25-30pts). On the other hand, Wave Serpents, just about the only useable thing from the last Eldar book, got waaaaaaaaaay better, as did Farseers and Jetbikes. Never underestimate GW's ability to make a bad situation worse. Business Gorillas posted:What would be the best way to play 1k Sons, in Rhinos or something? I don't know anything about 40k but I'm pretty familiar with Fantasy, so I imagine that I'll pick up 40k pretty quick. 40K and Fantasy, although pretty similar on the surface, actually play very differently. Fantasy is a game of melee combat, magic bombs, and maneuvering for position to sweep the other guy; 40K is a game of shooting, special rules interactions, and holding objectives on the final turn. Experience with one will certainly aid in the other, but I think you'll find they are much more different than they seem. Thousand Sons are... they're tough. Obviously their AP3 Bolters are their big advantage, so using that is how you wanna go- Ahriman himself is actually kinda a badass now, so he can be one option; Infiltrating d3 units onto the enemy can be pretty solid if done right, but you would need to back it up with melee units to make sure you don't just get stomped on. (Thousand Sons are awful in melee.) Rhinos are not a terrible idea, either, and can actually be combined with the above- if a unit Infiltrates, they can take their dedicated transport with them. Making use of the Crimson Slaughter supplement can also help, as you get some pretty good relics from that book. To be completely honest, building a Thousand Sons list is gonna be a balancing act between including fluffy, in-theme units and including units that actually do their job. How you strike that balance will probably depend a lot on who you are playing against for the most part, but in most cases you are going to have to compromise a little bit in the name of functionality.
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Jun 16, 2014 01:25
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Big Willy Style posted:The punisher bits wont go onto a demolisher turret without a fair bit of effort, especially if you want to magnetise both sets of guns. Hardee har har har. I know I've discussed magnetizing a Demolisher turret before and I think the suggestion given was to put one magnet on the inside of the gun mount and then just drill a hole in punisher gun. Especially with 4mm magnets which should fit just fine in the diamond shaped hole. If not I'll just make it a Punisher turret and leave it at that.
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Jun 16, 2014 01:39
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I have come up with the greatest idea for a 2000 point unbound army. The Imperial School of Artillery! 80 Masters of Ordnance, dropping the equivalent of a tactical nuke every turn.
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Jun 16, 2014 06:09
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Cooked Auto posted:Hardee har har har. I magnetized my Leman Russ by putting magnets between the top and bottom halves of the turret. It lets me take the whole turret apart and slot in any gun I want, without additional magnets or drilling of anything.
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Jun 16, 2014 06:21
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Squifferific posted:I magnetized my Leman Russ by putting magnets between the top and bottom halves of the turret. It lets me take the whole turret apart and slot in any gun I want, without additional magnets or drilling of anything. I've done this too, it's really easy on the LRBT kit, haven't done it on the Demolisher but I'm sure it's similar, maybe a little bit more complicated.
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Jun 16, 2014 06:27
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DJ Dizzy posted:I have come up with the greatest idea for a 2000 point unbound army. The Imperial School of Artillery! 80 Masters of Ordnance, dropping the equivalent of a tactical nuke every turn. You still have to form legal squads in Unbound, so this wouldn't work. You can't just take the Master by himself. AbusePuppy fucked around with this message at 07:16 on Jun 16, 2014 |
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Jun 16, 2014 07:14
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Squifferific posted:I magnetized my Leman Russ by putting magnets between the top and bottom halves of the turret. It lets me take the whole turret apart and slot in any gun I want, without additional magnets or drilling of anything. Yeah I think either you or someone else mentioned that last time and as ghetto wormhole says its easy with the normal Leman Russ but the demolisher turret is built differently to that turret.  But how I get around doing it I'll have to see once it arrives in the mail.
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Jun 16, 2014 08:59
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Genghis Cohen posted:I have played apocalypse on that table, and honestly we found it quite hard to manage. In retrospect I should have booked one of the flatter ones. That density of buildings is actually really hard to play on in a game as crowded with models as warhammer. I can't imagine playing Apoc on that, it's way too tight and to me is made purely for normal-size city fight battles. I'm hoping to do a 4- or 6-player Apocalypse game on the huge snowy table that has the big defensive wall and the earthmovers digging out the Xenos artifacts at one end:   breach #1  the road leading to the gates   the back side of breach #2   the Xenos artefacts  the back side of breach #1 The table in action (not our game, the table was in use the last time we visited)  
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Jun 16, 2014 09:18
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Holy poo poo what a great table. Clear those books and dice off there and stop posting like savages. If it looks that good you basically have to decide combat by what makes the story best.
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Jun 16, 2014 09:19
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Wow.  Now that's a table I would love to play on.
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Jun 16, 2014 09:57
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tbh I think the 'premiere' tables at WHW are definitely worth the trip - one of the guys I played with was from my local group, the other was his friend from 5 hours away who'd placed an order with Forgeworld to pick up at the store there. He places an order a couple of times a year and has a game day while he's there. I should post some of the other major game tables they have, these are 8' across on the short edge, I think:      and on the trash cans/rubbish bins:  Here's the rest of the Warhammer World pictures I've got: https://plus.google.com/photos/101792256154658567736/albums/5936205578977392769
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Jun 16, 2014 12:34
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Oh man, my dad doesn't want his old model kits*. Some are fairly beat up, but they should be good for parts, and he gave me the go-ahead to scavenge. One of them is a barely started USS Constitution. I'm not sure how much of it will be useful, but it has a bunch of cannons. Those'll be EXCELLENT for Ork conversions! I am pretty excited about this. *I live in what was my grandparents' house. We've not finished clearing out their junk yet!
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Jun 16, 2014 12:36
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I cruise ebay from time to time looking for old model tanks people sell off in lots of a few or more. They'd make great terrain features (scatter, wrecked vehicles, whatever) but I haven't been able to get any yet at a dirt-cheap price.
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Jun 16, 2014 12:51
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