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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:It lasts at least three minutes so you don't go walking around pranking people with your Orgasm Inducing Handshake Well now I have a completely different problem with the charm. 
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Jun 17, 2014 02:56
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xiw posted:Either that or some charms for playing the cock rampage guy from Oglaf. Do you use Brawl or Martial Arts for that?
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Jun 17, 2014 03:10
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Seriously though, folks, there is no justifiable reason for out-of-combat mote regen to be 5m/hour instead of 5m/round. Edit: Also, since withering attacks on a horse are resolved as though targeting its rider, is there any point in armoring your mount unless you intend to jump off of it and let it fight independently?
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Jun 17, 2014 03:12
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Ferrinus posted:Seriously though, folks, there is no justifiable reason for out-of-combat mote regen to be 5m/hour instead of 5m/round. Let me answer your question with a question: is there any point to riding a tyrant lizard into battle if you don't intend to jump off of it and let it fight independently?
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Jun 17, 2014 03:20
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Ferrinus posted:Seriously though, folks, there is no justifiable reason for out-of-combat mote regen to be 5m/hour instead of 5m/round. Isn't that pretty much how it always worked? EDIT: Never mind, I'm not engaging in discussion about leaked info. Original post saved only to make it clear exactly to what degree I was prepared to do so until I decided not to at all. Stephenls fucked around with this message at 03:23 on Jun 17, 2014 |
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Jun 17, 2014 03:21
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Stephenls posted:Isn't that pretty much how it always worked?
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Jun 17, 2014 03:30
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Stephenls posted:Isn't that pretty much how it always worked? I recognize that you won't be responding to this, but for the benefit of the audience: "4m/hour" is how it always worked, but "5m/round in combat" is new to 3rd edition. Even brief reflection reveals that 5 motes per round universally is far better than 5 motes per round depending on whether you're "in combat" or not, and that long-term, significant charms that you wouldn't want someone to be able to spam out of combat come with Willpower costs or essence commitment requirements anyway. You should get them to let you discuss the leak! Cat's out of the bag, it'll be real hard to participate in discussion at all otherwise.
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Jun 17, 2014 03:31
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Yeah, on this point I agree with Ferrinus. Fundamentally, I don't feel like there's some sick nasty benefit to making mote gain slower out of a fight. It just encourages players to lame out fights they have already conclusively won to recharge their mote stocks, which is utterly pointless. There's no need to make Cults and Manses up mote regen to make them worthwhile at this point.
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Jun 17, 2014 03:34
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The sex-batman post isn't getting nearly enough the love it deserves.
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Jun 17, 2014 03:38
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If you guys think 'faster regen in combat than out' is a new thing, you're wrong de facto even if you're correct de jure. Remember stunts? Remember how you would get motes for them? Remember how you would stunt every action and getting a 2d stunt was blindingly easy?
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Jun 17, 2014 03:40
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The "sex batman" post is really good, and articulates cleanly why charms like Bliss Trick express Exalted's sexual themes in a clumsy, juvenile way compared to charms like Husband-Seducing Demon Dance. As usual, people tend to try to deflect this criticism with "wow, you must want Exalted to contain no sex at all" (the equivalent of "oh, you must want mastering a skill to be easy") because they're unable or unwilling to engage with the actual complaint. Transient People posted:Yeah, on this point I agree with Ferrinus. Fundamentally, I don't feel like there's some sick nasty benefit to making mote gain slower out of a fight. It just encourages players to lame out fights they have already conclusively won to recharge their mote stocks, which is utterly pointless. There's no need to make Cults and Manses up mote regen to make them worthwhile at this point. Iirc Cults used to also give you willpower regen, and there'd be no better way to make Hearthstones a huge deal than to make them give you +(rating)m every turn. Or, if you wanted to be more modest, once per scene you can draw on your hearthstone to instantly gain rating x 2 motes, stuff like that. Edit: In fact, 1/scene or 1/day "draw down a big helping of essence right when you need it" would work well for cults, too. RiotGearEpsilon posted:If you guys think 'faster regen in combat than out' is a new thing, you're wrong de facto even if you're correct de jure. Remember stunts? Remember how you would get motes for them? Remember how you would stunt every action and getting a 2d stunt was blindingly easy? You could stunt out of combat. In effect, Exalted 2e gave you 4 motes/action, which I'm perfectly fine with. In fact, that's why I'm entirely confident that 5m/turn in Exalted 3e would break nothing at all. It just simplifies and formalizes what everyone's expecting to have anyway. Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 03:44 on Jun 17, 2014 |
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Jun 17, 2014 03:40
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Ferrinus posted:Seriously though, folks, there is no justifiable reason for out-of-combat mote regen to be 5m/hour instead of 5m/round. Yep, taking a break to have a fencing match in the middle of an emergency where you're trying to shore up the dam so the city isn't washed away: mechanically the best choice so you can keep spamming your big mote expenditure craft charms! 
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Jun 17, 2014 03:58
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Stephenls posted:Isn't that pretty much how it always worked? RiotGearEpsilon posted:This. It's a bit late to complain about divergent mote regeneration rates. "Because we've always done it that way" is a stupid reason to do anything.
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Jun 17, 2014 03:59
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Zereth posted:Solution: Get in a friendly touch sparring match with a guy, get in a minute or two of practice, don't use any charms, full mote pool again. The leak has a bit of discussion telling you that you're not allowed to spar with your friends to build up Initiative prior to a big battle, or to build up motes. The thing is, when you find yourself writing sidebars like that, you know you've written an imperfect rule in the first place. I'm not sure offhand how to solve the weird things that initiative does when new combatants join fights late and are suddenly incredibly disadvantaged against an enemy who's doing well (it seems like, at the very least, it should be harder to make a Decisive Attack against someone who's got a lot of Initiative of their own), but the mote thing is easy. Incidentally, this is actually something Stephenls can discuss because we've known about the difference between in-combat and out-of-combat mote regen forever. You can find me complaining about it like two threads ago. I think I personally said to Holden, "Give me limitless power!"
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Jun 17, 2014 04:11
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Hey Lea, what kind of effect is the leak having on development?Ego Trip posted:"Because we've always done it that way" is a stupid reason to do anything. This is true.
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Jun 17, 2014 04:36
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Ego Trip posted:"Because we've always done it that way" is a stupid reason to do anything. Well when you say it out loud, sure.
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Jun 17, 2014 04:43
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Also, is "at least three minutes" supposed to be an impressively long duration or just the minimum amount of time required to ride the Sex-Batmobile? Just checking.
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Jun 17, 2014 05:07
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I think it's like casting times in AD&D where if someone hits your character in mid-coitus then the orgasm doesn't go off. Of course you've got perfect defenses so it's kind of pointless.
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Jun 17, 2014 05:15
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Kai Tave posted:I think it's like casting times in AD&D where if someone hits your character in mid-coitus then the orgasm doesn't go off. Of course you've got perfect defenses so it's kind of pointless. I knew I maxed Concentrate for a reason.
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Jun 17, 2014 05:21
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Another unrelated observation: Martial Arts trees should be divided into emerald/sapphire/adamant tiers just like evocation trees and sorcerous spells are. It's the best way to make sure that a Dragon-Blood and Solar can be seen to be practicing the same thing without it being either a must-have for the former or a noob trap for the latter. Right now it looks like there'll be like, one, two charms with "this sucks when a DB does it" attached, but it'd be cooler if, just as with Volcano Cutter, a Solar could do things with Snake Style a Lunar never could, and a Lunar would at least be able to access powers beyond any Dragon-Blood. (sidereals wouldn't be able to perform adamant charms either, but they'd have comparably-powerful-from-the-get-go but vastly weirder sidereal charms)
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Jun 17, 2014 05:25
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Zereth posted:Solution: Get in a friendly touch sparring match with a guy, get in a minute or two of practice, don't use any charms, full mote pool again. It's too bad this DOESN'T work, because that would be honestly kind of amazing.
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Jun 17, 2014 05:46
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reignonyourparade posted:It's too bad this DOESN'T work, because that would be honestly kind of amazing. I'm going to play a dawn that drags his weaker party members into sparing matches whenever they go dry doing other things. Completely unarmed, unarmored, and yelling loudly for them to put their back in it before I hurl them back into whatever they were doing. I will have a badge with "Morale Captain" scribbled in crayon. edit: wait no, poo poo, if we do this dawns may be able to do things other than punch stuff without being bad at punching stuff, back to the drawing board. Ash Rose fucked around with this message at 06:28 on Jun 17, 2014 |
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Jun 17, 2014 06:26
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Ferrinus posted:The leak has a bit of discussion telling you that you're not allowed to spar with your friends to build up Initiative prior to a big battle, or to build up motes. How does it feel about bags of rats...?
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Jun 17, 2014 06:27
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Darksaber posted:How does it feel about bags of rats...? Very, very stern, I imagine. Of course, bags of rats and "friendly sparring matches" aren't where you're going to see this have game effects. As Transient People says, it creates an incentive to drag out the fights you'd already have had. It's sort of like you never want to finish off the enemy army in HoMM until you've cast Resurrect on all of your damaged stacks. I bet if the victim of a Decisive Attack got to use the better of their Defense and their Initiative as their "base" Defense (then penalized normally), and if they got to apply their armor to your damage as normal but your maximum damage pool was equal to your Initiative, I'd feel a lot better about the weirdness inherent in combatants joining fights halfway through.
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Jun 17, 2014 06:32
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Ferrinus posted:Very, very stern, I imagine. Of course, bags of rats and "friendly sparring matches" aren't where you're going to see this have game effects. As Transient People says, it creates an incentive to drag out the fights you'd already have had. It's sort of like you never want to finish off the enemy army in HoMM until you've cast Resurrect on all of your damaged stacks. It's sort of a systemic problem when you have in-combat and out of combat stuff tied to the same resource. See the "having to compare every charm with hungry tiger/HGD because we buy them with the same xp" problem.
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Jun 17, 2014 06:35
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Ettin posted:Also, is "at least three minutes" supposed to be an impressively long duration or just the minimum amount of time required to ride the Sex-Batmobile? Just checking. I think that's just to prevent you from flurrying it.
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Jun 17, 2014 07:41
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:*For the same reason, I give Thousandfold Courtesan Calculation a bit of a pass. Yes, it's silly, but when your game is about the adventures of magical communist golems, you actually do need to spell out the fact that sex and seduction is something they can do. I mentioned that I actually give Thousandfold Courtesan Calculation a pass because it makes a statement about the weirdness of Alchemicals. My thought was imagining that Autochthon was thinking "hey I am making transhuman super-champions who have to be better than humans at things. What is a thing humans do a lot? Sex! They must be better at sex than regular humans. I will give them a special submodule to make them better at sex." It, to me, is a statement of how Autochthon doesn't fundamentally get human interaction, and thinks sex, instead of seduction, is something specific and important to interact with. Meanwhile, Solars have all these Charms that can enhance seduction, and I mean that not in a sexual way. Husband Seducing Demon Dance, for example. This might be very death of the author and the original intent might have just been 'whooo sexy robots!' but I don't know. Like, to me, in a book otherwise with no wacky sex stuff (the 1E Alchemicals book) that showing up and being explicitly "YOU ARE GOOD AT BONING" seemed to be a statement about how Autochthon thought about human processes and actions. If you have a charm that's about sex, I think it should say something other than 'oh man you are good at the sexings', whether it's Husband-Seducing Demon Dance's statements about war or Thousandfold's statements about how Autochthon doesn't get humans on a fundamental level even if he likes them. Or a hypothetical non-juvenile non-rapey Lover charmtree that's about the futility and emptiness of pleasure. Charms that enhance the pleasure someone feels from achieving a goal but leave you feeling empty and depressed inside later. Charms that make you desire something very very badly, but fade when you acquire it, leaving you feeling disappointed. Etc etc.
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Jun 17, 2014 09:10
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MJ12 posted:Or a hypothetical non-juvenile non-rapey Lover charmtree that's about the futility and emptiness of pleasure. Charms that enhance the pleasure someone feels from achieving a goal but leave you feeling empty and depressed inside later. Charms that make you desire something very very badly, but fade when you acquire it, leaving you feeling disappointed. Etc etc. Some kind of Golden Years Tarnished Black-style Charm which imbued you with an incredibly intense Defining Intimacy which consumed your life and withered all your other Intimacies then gradually faded to nothingness and left you an anhedonic husk yearning for lost pleasures would be great.
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Jun 17, 2014 09:54
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Yes. TCC is a spergy, mechanistic sex charm, but, you know what? It's a sex charm for spergy robots. That's valid. It's still a bit silly, mind you. If there were a whole tree of them, that would be too much. But as a one off, especially sitting next to the umpty-charm-long social tree for sticking needles into people's heads to brainwash them? That's a statement about life in Autochthonia.
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Jun 17, 2014 09:56
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I guess TCC could literally be meant to show up how Solar's are insecure and can be a bit childish in overcompensating. Making Solars less boringly boilerplate shiny heroes is a job in itself and making it clear they're still human beings at heart with all the flaws a person with immense power is likely to exhibit would be good, rather than the weird "No they're just perfect and the best at everything" nonsense they ended up becoming. If that's what it is going for. But probably not.
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Jun 17, 2014 11:24
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Ferrinus posted:The thing is, when you find yourself writing sidebars like that, you know you've written an imperfect rule in the first place. Is it? Like, maybe, if you're still following the engine-as-physics approach of 2e. Just sticking a rule in the book that says, "Any fight where the stakes are nil has no systemic impact" is fine, I think.
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Jun 17, 2014 11:32
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To be fair on them any party that is actually seriously going to do something like the Bag of Squirrels trick instead just leaving it as a silly joke on how system mechanics can sometimes work is probably going to need more than a sidebar to stop them doing stupid poo poo.
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Jun 17, 2014 11:37
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Heart Attacks posted:Is it? Like, maybe, if you're still following the engine-as-physics approach of 2e. Engine-as-physics is a sliding scale. It actually is jarring that a Solar can Monkey Leap indefinitely if she's chasing an opponent across the rooftops but not if she's chasing a thief, even if the opponent is fairly easy to defeat but the thief stole something life-threateningly critical. If anything, it's out of combat that you should be able to throw motes around casually.
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Jun 17, 2014 15:52
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One of the reasons restoring motes at the same rate out of combat as in is an issue is because of the charm that allows you to substitute motes for WP to resist social attacks. Obviously this is essentially a false claim due to the ease of stunting, but it is part of the problem. The obvious thing to do is just get rid of that charm.
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Jun 17, 2014 16:07
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Maybe I missed it, but doesn't stunting not restore motes now? Either way, I agree; the ability to substitute essence for willpower when taking an action available to anyone but that has no concrete duration or frequency is goofy at any rate - it's already free if you're having a long conversation, and already relevant/taxing if you're trying to resist influence in combat time. Edit: Actually, you know what, 3e can handle this easily. Literally just say motes spent on that charm don't regenerate until the next scene, or until you regain Willpower, or give the charm itself a reset requirement, or whatever. The devs need more faith in their own mechanics - they don't need the old crutches! Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 16:30 on Jun 17, 2014 |
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Jun 17, 2014 16:17
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They like the old crutches. Also, it's Monk Seducing Demon Dance now. 
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Jun 17, 2014 18:45
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ErichZahn posted:They like the old crutches. "The Solar moves sensually through the eight steps of silken ecstasy, provoking her spellbound audience. This is dance lasting three minutes, ending in an Appearance + Performance roll with (Essence) bonus dice against the group’s Resolve. If successful, it inspires intense lust for the Exalt. Success guarantees that characters who are sexually attracted to the Lawgiver will attempt to seduce her. Characters who are not sexually compatible with the Solar instead experience strong admiration for her, and will be inspired to speak with her at least once." I really don't get here why these Charms have to be so specific. Why do I need to dance (and to dance for exactly three minutes, at that) to make people like me? There's even a somewhat air-breathing mermaid Charm (Penultimate Unity of Form) to allow cross-application of the different too-specific Performance subsets. Also, technically Penultimate Unity of Form could be used with Celestial Bliss Trick to "unleash a torrent of unimaginable ecstasy" via oratory, music, dance, or song, which I find pretty funny. Roadie fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Jun 17, 2014 |
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Jun 17, 2014 19:50
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My question is this - why does Celestial Bliss Trick have to target after sex? Why not change the wording to be usable 'whenever a target is in a state of bliss'. Imply something about sex if you want, but let me take someone out for an awesome date and get bonuses to persuade, or cook an amazeballs magic enhanced meal and get bonuses to persuade them afterwards. And the whole 'defining intimacy of lust' thing is just loving gross. Or like, Rose-Lipped Seduction... why does it have to seduce someone into my bed? Why can't I seduce someone into doing something immoral, seduce them to the darkside, seduce them into being fine with demon summoning. Seduce has a lot of meanings beyond 'get someone ready to shag!'. Sure, imply you can literally seduce people too, but why is that the only purpose the charm has?
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Jun 17, 2014 19:52
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Back on the subject of "dexterity is the God stat" it seems one way to deal with it would be to chop an attribute out of each category. Do we really need strength AND stamina when dexterity includes both fine and gross coordination? One stat representing General prowess would stack up rather better in comparison. Does social really need three stats? Manipulation always seems to come across as "Charisma but only for being evil" while appearance is supposedly in a large part about demeanour not just looks. Why not merge the two so that there is one stat for force of personality and another for social poise? Intelligence is a good stat but having both wits and perception seems redundant, why not merge them into a single stat which represents awareness and reactions?
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Jun 17, 2014 20:01
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KittyEmpress posted:My question is this - why does Celestial Bliss Trick have to target after sex? Why not change the wording to be usable 'whenever a target is in a state of bliss'. Imply something about sex if you want, but let me take someone out for an awesome date and get bonuses to persuade, or cook an amazeballs magic enhanced meal and get bonuses to persuade them afterwards. And the whole 'defining intimacy of lust' thing is just loving gross. I feel like there's two answers here. One is because they wanted to write some sex charms and forgot to try and be broad with them. The other is because if you remove the sex stuff from Bliss Trick it turns into a goofy social combat excellency-replacer. Basically spend 3 minutes talking with the king about bridge abutments, watch him shudder to an unexpected climax, and then launch into your magically assisted argument for land grants or whatever.
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