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Dalrain posted:To answer the simple part of your question: yes, the wire has to be screwed in/attached to do anything useful. Depending on the wire type, not necessarily... That's a steel box. The outlet could still be grounded through the box, assuming (however unlikely) that it's a self grounding outlet and the box was grounded through some type of metal clad cable. Still, I would double ground it anyway just to be safe. Summit, do what Dalrain said and attach a pigtail to it. Just get a long, bare wire as thick as the existing ones, twist one end of it to the existing twisted ground wires, about halfway up make a hairpin loop and screw it down to the box, then use the last section of the cable to ground the outlet. DaveSauce posted:So forgive me if this has been brought up before, but I was wondering about this. Is this naming scheme only for residental or certain types of cable? I'm not an electrician, but I work with industrial controls, and whenever I use X/4 SOOW/etc. cable it has 4 wires: black, white, red, and green. I suppose that's a little unclear. The /number indicates the number of insulated conductors bundled inside. Even though a ground can either be green or bare, if it's green then it's counted and if it's bare, then it's included after the numbers using "with ground". Of course, ground wires have been standard for so long now that hardly anyone says the "with ground" anymore, it's just assumed to be included. Confused yet? You can always run more cable than you need, as long as it's properly capped off and protected. Most residential 240v devices today like dryers and ranges require 4 conductor cable already: hot 1, hot 2, neutral and ground, although technically they need that neutral for running 120v features like clocks, timers, etc.
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Jun 8, 2014 21:38
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Can someone help me make sense of this? I'm trying to install a Zwave dimmer that requires a neutral, but it looks as though the white wire has been relabeled as a hot. The two switches control a ceiling fan and the fan's overhead light.  There's a cut off nub of a white wire in the romex that goes up to the fan/light. I'm assuming its also not connected up in the ceiling. Can I use that to "backfeed" a neutral into the switch box? edit: I kind of figured it out. Looks like I've got some zwave switches to return. Glanced in and saw white wires and assumed I was good to go. eddiewalker fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Jun 10, 2014 |
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Jun 10, 2014 18:26
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eddiewalker posted:Can someone help me make sense of this? I'm trying to install a Zwave dimmer that requires a neutral, but it looks as though the white wire has been relabeled as a hot. You've got yourself some wiring problems. First off, that's a plastic box and those switch frames aren't grounded. Second, how the hell does your ceiling fan even work if there's no neutral going to it? You might need to take that fan down. I got a feeling they connected neutral to ground there, which is a no no. Also, look closer at that taped-off white wire. Is it twisted together with the 3 black wires, or is it just taped off and the tip is caught under the wire nut? Don't return anything yet, you might still be able to correct this and have the dimmer you want.
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Jun 10, 2014 21:23
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Apparently code didn't require a neutral to light switch boxes until like 2011. It looks like in most places in the house they basically ran romex from the breaker box to the load, then ran 14-2 (or 14-3 where there's a light and fan) just to interrupt the hot. I see example diagrams like that all over the Internet, and it seems to be legal pre-2011. Just a pain, and I'd have to pull new 14-4 from my light/fan to my switch boxes to do this zwave thing right. In this particular box I guess I can put a line toner on the white-labelled-black and hope it runs to an outlet where neutral is present, but this is the only place where that will be possible. eddiewalker fucked around with this message at 21:45 on Jun 10, 2014 |
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Jun 10, 2014 21:38
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Even so, your house seems to be wired strangely. Usually a switch leg will use one run of 14/2 for the light (black for hot and white for switched) and then a second run of 14/2 for the fan. As far as I can tell yours has one run of 14/2 carrying two hots and a run of 14/3 carrying both switched wires. But the 14/3 should still have a white wire somewhere (I'm assuming its 14/3 because while I'm sure that you can buy romex that just has black, red, and ground; its rare to the point that I've never seen it). At the very least you should add a pigtail to the ground so that your switches are grounded.
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Jun 10, 2014 22:02
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The romex with the red and black leaving the top of the box toward the ceiling also has a white, but it's snipped back too far to be usable. I'm assuming that there's a full circuit run from the breaker to a junction in the attic near the lights, then from there they branched down to an outlet on the wall. From that outlet they took the hots to the switch box. They didn't need to continue the neutral from the outlet to the switch so for some reason, they doubled up the hot run rather than snipping it back or capping the wire. That's the theory I plan to run with once I get home from work, at least. The rest of my bedroom switches seem much more straightforward, though still lack neutrals.
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Jun 10, 2014 22:26
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eddiewalker posted:It looks like in most places in the house they basically ran romex from the breaker box to the load, then ran 14-2 (or 14-3 where there's a light and fan) just to interrupt the hot. You're assuming. What happens when you assume? Take down your ceiling fan! If those 2 switches weren't grounded, that means that your previous electrician wasn't very good and there's an excellent chance that you could rewire the existing cables to have your dimmers. Also at the very least, there might be a neutral-ground issue there. eddiewalker posted:The romex with the red and black leaving the top of the box toward the ceiling also has a white, but it's snipped back too far to be usable. Try pulling that whole cable bundle out farther. You might be able to tug enough out that you can cut the outer sheath away for more cable to work with. You only need an inch or so to strip back and use a push-on connector to attach an extension onto. eddiewalker posted:From that outlet they took the hots to the switch box. They didn't need to continue the neutral from the outlet to the switch so for some reason, they doubled up the hot run rather than snipping it back or capping the wire. That's just it: how would your ceiling fan work without a neutral going to it? kid sinister fucked around with this message at 22:42 on Jun 10, 2014 |
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Jun 10, 2014 22:35
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I did pull the fan. It's grounded. It's getting a good neutral that has no continuity to the snipped back white wire in my switch box. It's got two switched hots. The "round trip from an attic junction to through an outlet, to the switches, back to the fan" makes sense to me, and just seems to be an outdated, possibly lazy technique. Again, I can't investigate further while I'm at work.
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Jun 10, 2014 22:41
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eddiewalker posted:I did pull the fan. It's grounded. It's getting a good neutral that has no continuity to the snipped back white wire in my switch box. It's got two switched hots. It's not just lazy, that's a waste of cable. Back when no-neutrals was legal, such a double switch leg could have been accomplished with just the run of 14-3 from the attic junction to that wall box by repurposing that snipped off neutral to be the supplying hot. The 14-2 run was superfluous. Is that taped white twisted together with the other blacks?
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Jun 10, 2014 22:53
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eddiewalker, how old is your house? have you actually confirmed there's a junction box feeding all of this in the attic or is it just speculation? i can't really tell from your wording. the re-identified white wire is what's throwing me off, too. that two gang box looks like it was remodeled in (based on the screws through the side of what looks like it should be a nail-on box). if the rest of the house is switch looped it's possible that whoever added that switch box/the fan box used the existing light location (which would have had a hot and a neutral) and fed the new light box with the neutral, dropped down into a plug from that same j-box, then ran to the switch location to power the switches. inefficient and round-about way of doing it but it would work..i just don't have any idea why that white wire would ALSO be tied in with all of it. anyway that's all speculation without seeing the insides of all of the boxes involved/how many wires are in each location. can you get pictures, eddiewalker? even if you gave up on those dimmers i'm still curious what Mr. Jankovich did this time around :-)
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Jun 12, 2014 02:18
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That relabeled white wire ended up being this one tied in with the hots on this outlet.  It was unnecessary, because one of those blacks was making the same trip to the switch box. Looks like an electrician in the 70s wasn't required to drop a neutral at the switch, but the cable was there, so rather than nut off the white, he made it a hot. Dumb. My attic>outlet>switch theory for the path of the hots was correct, so I just reassigned the white to neutral duties at that outlet. Once I had a neutral in the switchbox, stuff got crazy.  Black box is a dual-relay Zwave switch. The wall switches are now just controlling those relays, which can also be Internet-controlled. End result: We also added a 7-button scene controller since this is the master bedroom.  Every other switch I've checked is a much more simple case of switched-hot, no neutral, so I'll have to run cable if I do those. (Oh, and for those concerned: I grounded the switch) eddiewalker fucked around with this message at 03:10 on Jun 12, 2014 |
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Jun 12, 2014 03:07
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eddiewalker posted:My attic>outlet>switch theory for the path of the hots was correct, so I just reassigned the white to neutral duties at that outlet. Excellent! I'm glad everything worked out for you. All things considered, you're at least lucky that 70's electrician didn't wire the place with aluminum. Was your place built in the 70's, or remodeled then? If that was new wiring then, then it's also incredibly odd that he would do attic boxes like that. Time is money after all: it's always cheaper for an electrician to make a straighter branch than to make sub-branches, simply because it's faster (and thus cheaper) to run wire than to wire extra junction boxes. You only find attic boxes like that now for retrofits. edit: For the record, your shared-neutrals-wherever wiring situation is extremely similar how they used to do knob-and-tube wiring. However, judging by how easily you were able to correct your dimmer box, then I bet that most of your maze-like wiring could be corrected without running new cable if anyone took the time to do it. edit2: At the very, very least, I'd make sure that all your other switches and devices are grounded in their boxes, judging from that original switch box. kid sinister fucked around with this message at 04:41 on Jun 12, 2014 |
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Jun 12, 2014 04:25
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Has anyone used Leviton's 4-port USB charging outlets? I really like the idea of being able to put a bunch of USB adapters in a junk drawer and never having to deal with them again.
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Jun 12, 2014 16:28
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I haven't used the 4-port one, but I have this combo outlet/2-port USB in my kitchen and its awesome. http://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-15-Amp-Tamper-Resistant-Combo-Outlet-USB-Charger-White-R02-T5630-00W/203392187 Charges the iPad or any other device just fine.
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Jun 12, 2014 16:51
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PuTTY riot posted:I bought a house with a pool, and I'm a little worried that I don't see GCFI anywhere inline with the lights or pumps or outlets by the deck, or at the breakers. The run for the pumps is 220v. Is my best option replacing the breaker(s) (it looks like they used 4 110 breakers to give me 2 220 runs) with GFCI? Is this something I should really hire an electrician for? Still wondering about this... mainly the replacing the breaker with a GFCI-complaint breaker, I'll get an electrician out for the saltwater generator stuff. Is there a less-expensive choice for 220 GFCI than replacing the breaker?
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Jun 12, 2014 17:16
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Phanatic posted:Has anyone used Leviton's 4-port USB charging outlets? I really like the idea of being able to put a bunch of USB adapters in a junk drawer and never having to deal with them again. Huh. I just realized how those things could actually be against code... Phanatic, there's actually rules about outlet spacing. In most rooms, one is required every 12 feet at most; for kitchen counters, one every 4 feet at most and at least one at every island. I suppose if you swapped one of your existing duplexes out for a 4 port USB outlet, then you would technically be violating outlet spacing rules. However, the 2 port USB/single outlet ones would be fine. If you want a 4 port charger but would be violating outlet spacing to put it in, that still isn't the end of the world. You could always cut an old single gang box out of the wall, enlarge the opening a bit, put in a 2 gang old work box and be up to code. PuTTY riot posted:Still wondering about this... mainly the replacing the breaker with a GFCI-complaint breaker, I'll get an electrician out for the saltwater generator stuff. Is there a less-expensive choice for 220 GFCI than replacing the breaker? Nope, not for 240v. kid sinister fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Jun 12, 2014 |
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Jun 12, 2014 18:11
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I made a post in business, finance and careers forum asking questions about becoming an electrician as a career. If anyone has advice for me I would really appreciate it. Here's a link to the post - http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3642636&pagenumber=1.
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Jun 12, 2014 19:13
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   No matter what combo I try, I can't get my wiggy or whatever to light up at the fixture. I can go black to ground, or red to ground if I flip the switch and light up the wiggy at the switch. This doesn't seem right and if I'm not mistaken the neutral and ground aren't being used at all? I thought I just had a bad fan. This is a foreclosure built in ~93. Am I doing something wrong here? I assumed id have one switch with red and white and the other with black and white and grounds I guess.
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Jun 16, 2014 17:22
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PuTTY riot posted:
The switch box looks like it's wired correctly. So if you're not getting anything on the wires coming out of the ceiling, they're not connected to the wires in the box.
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Jun 16, 2014 18:18
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It was a bad outlet that I guess was feeding the fan/switches. It's all good now.
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Jun 16, 2014 19:27
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Howdy, handy goons. I'm curious about whether or not I can take my existing 50amp breaker in my breaker box and "split" it, somehow. Let me explain. I would like to be able to run an new 50amp, 240V dryer plug into a back room for a home brewery, but my breaker box is full, as it is, but I don't have the $2,000 which would be needed to upgrade it. Would it be possible to take the existing 50amp fuse and run it to a "A/B" box, where I can switch power to either the dryer or the back room? That way, I can reuse the existing fuse for two purposes, ensure that I won't ever overload the box by running both the brewery and the dryer, and not have to shell out the bucks to upgrade the entire panel?
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Jun 17, 2014 01:42
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null_pointer posted:Howdy, handy goons. I'm curious about whether or not I can take my existing 50amp breaker in my breaker box and "split" it, somehow. Let me explain. DPDT 50A switches don't exist outside of industrial use. How about you just offload some of your existing breakers onto tandem breakers until you have enough room for a 2-pole breaker? Also, dryer plugs are 30A, range plugs are 50A. Zhentar posted:The switch box looks like it's wired correctly. So if you're not getting anything on the wires coming out of the ceiling, they're not connected to the wires in the box. No it's not, the switch frames aren't grounded. kid sinister fucked around with this message at 02:45 on Jun 17, 2014 |
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Jun 17, 2014 02:18
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kid sinister posted:DPDT 50A switches don't exist outside of industrial use. How about you just offload some of your existing breakers onto tandem breakers until you have enough room for a 2-pole breaker? Whatever Mr. Smarty Pants!  Unfortunately, the panel is *full* (and I do mean full) of tandem breakers, already, so doubling up is out of the question. I take it that your answer means that switching is out of the question, whether 30a or 50a?
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Jun 17, 2014 03:08
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null_pointer posted:Whatever Mr. Smarty Pants! The other option here is to run a subpanel. Relocate the 50A into a subpanel and install an appropriate (100A or whatever the subpanel is rated for/you want) breaker in the original to feed the new one.
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Jun 17, 2014 03:12
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Motronic posted:The other option here is to run a subpanel. Relocate the 50A into a subpanel and install an appropriate (100A or whatever the subpanel is rated for/you want) breaker in the original to feed the new one. My apologies for being dumb, but I'm not getting this. Assume the panel is already maxed out in terms of amperage. How can I possibly have the subpanel rated for anything higher than what the original breaker was?
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Jun 17, 2014 03:31
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null_pointer posted:My apologies for being dumb, but I'm not getting this. Assume the panel is already maxed out in terms of amperage. How can I possibly have the subpanel rated for anything higher than what the original breaker was? What do you mean "maxed out in terms of amperage"? Surely if you total all of your load breakers it is already more than the main breaker/service size. Panels are typically oversubscribed. A subpanel is no different. There are limits, and your local codes will tell you exactly what those limits are. But it is quite common to have a 200 amp panel with 300+ amps of breakers in it, and that's they way I'd rather run things. Obviously you'll never be able to draw more than 200 amps because the main would trip, but I'd always prefer having more circuits individually on breakers rather than long runs of 8 and 12 outlets on a single breaker. As long as your peak load is below that of your service everything is fine (this is why you do load calculations rather than guessing).
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Jun 17, 2014 04:29
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Motronic posted:What do you mean "maxed out in terms of amperage"? Surely if you total all of your load breakers it is already more than the main breaker/service size. Panels are typically oversubscribed. A subpanel is no different. This is tangentially related-- I've got 200A service, but there is no main breaker in my panel, the only disconnect being pulling the meter. In this case I presume the total nominal value of all the breakers can't exceed 200A, or does a load calculation still apply? I can't fathom how I'd pull 200A anyway.
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Jun 17, 2014 04:32
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Qwijib0 posted:This is tangentially related-- I've got 200A service, but there is no main breaker in my panel, the only disconnect being pulling the meter. In this case I presume the total nominal value of all the breakers can't exceed 200A? There are two types of panels, main breaker and main lug. If you have a main lug panel as your primary (or only panel) you should have a main breaker outside at the meter (which feeds the bus bar of your panel), or one of the breakers on the panel should be the main (you "back feed" the bus bar through that breaker). If you have neither of those things you need to have it corrected immediately as there is nothing preventing you from exceeding your service entrance rating as well as no reasonable way to cut power to the entire house. Motronic fucked around with this message at 04:37 on Jun 17, 2014 |
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Jun 17, 2014 04:34
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null_pointer posted:Whatever Mr. Smarty Pants! But is it full of quad breakers yet? From the last page: crocodile posted:it fits in two spots like a regular 240v breaker but has disconnect handles for two separate 240 circuits. Your switch idea is only out of the question if you don't feel like spending a few hundred bucks for that switch. kid sinister fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Jun 17, 2014 |
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Jun 17, 2014 19:05
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I bought my house last August and in the inspection the electrical panel was called out because it was an old Federal Pacific stab-lok style panel. In the week between when we took possession and when we actually moved in I replaced the panel with a 200 Amp Eaton CH panel. I've noticed that when the A/C unit (2.5 ton) kicks on the lights on other circuits dim. This also happens when the vacuum or other high inrush current load is turned on. It's a momentary dimming, but it is noticeable, and the fact that it is cross circuits leads to some concern. Unfortunately I couldn't tell you if this condition existed before swapping out the panel because I did it before we moved in. The internet tells me this can be anything from: 1) Completely normal and I shouldn't worry about it. 2) A consequence of how the utility has distributed it's network, and momentary dimming could be the result of being at the end of the distribution grid circuit. 3) A problem on the utility side (transformer or wiring bad or not balanced). 4) My house is about to burn down. #1 or 2 seem most likely. Our house is at the very back of our neighborhood development and there is a creek/nature area that separates us from the next nearest development. It's very likely we are on the very far end of the distribution network for our area. I doubt #4 because - at least in regards to the panel - I am confident in my wiring job. I torqued down the mains to the listed value using a torque wrench, and I did have a permit/inspection before power was turned back on. My only concern would be the other connections at the meter or transformer which I didn't touch. Based on what I have described is this something I should follow up with the utility about or should I not worry about?
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Jun 17, 2014 20:17
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I decided to assume it was #1 & #2 and my house hasn't burned down yet. If you're more motivated than I am, you could measure the inrush current and the voltage drop and see if the drop is unreasonable.
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Jun 17, 2014 20:47
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Motronic posted:There are two types of panels, main breaker and main lug. If you have a main lug panel as your primary (or only panel) you should have a main breaker outside at the meter (which feeds the bus bar of your panel), or one of the breakers on the panel should be the main (you "back feed" the bus bar through that breaker). (this looks way more shameful as a photo,  The feed is from the meter box right above it, which is sealed with the utility company's tamper-thing. All the double-pole breakers feed subpanels, the two singles feed other outlets outside-- so it's only a few flips to kill the house. Qwijib0 fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Jun 17, 2014 |
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Jun 17, 2014 23:48
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You've got bigger problems. Those two red wires connected to the input lugs have no current protection and are feeding a 240V somewhere. And stuffing them into the input lugs is guaranteed a big no-no. And not that it matters much with those unprotected wires being your A1 priority, but it looks to me like you have 4 (or maybe 2) more spaces available in the bottom of that panel.
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Jun 18, 2014 00:56
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kid sinister posted:But is it full of quad breakers yet? From the last page: My apologies for bombarding you guys with dumb questions, but household electrical might as well be thaumaturgy, for all that I know about it. Can I use quad or tandem breakers in my panel? What would allow me/prevent me from doing so? Is it really kosher for me to be taking an existing 50a breaker, running it to a subpanel, and putting more than 50a worth of fuses in it? Is this cool, so long as I don't try to run my brewery and run the range/dryer at the same time? What would be the cheapest way for me to be able to take my crammed-to-the-gills panel and free up some space so that I can wire my brewery for a 240V plug?
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Jun 18, 2014 01:58
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null_pointer posted:My apologies for bombarding you guys with dumb questions, but household electrical might as well be thaumaturgy, for all that I know about it. Quad breakers are just tandem breakers riveted together with bars joining the matching amperage breakers so that you would get 120V off either busbar, 240v in total. The 2 pairs of 2-pole breakers made up by a tandem breaker don't even have to be matching amperages. As long as they make quad breakers for your panel, you can use them. They would most likely be your cheapest option, but you might have to get one from your local electrical supplier. I don't think I've ever seen quad breakers at a big box store. Yes, it's very common to have multiple breakers in any panel whose combined amperages would outstrip the amperage of the breaker feeding that panel. You're forgetting that not all of those breakers will be used at capacity all the time.
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Jun 18, 2014 02:10
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 There was a ceiling fan there this morning. I guess I need to cut a hole and use a pancake box? Can I not cut a hole and just drill through the ceiling into a joist?
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Jun 18, 2014 02:13
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Qwijib0 posted:(this looks way more shameful as a photo, Yeah..........whether there is a breaker outside or not you need a qualified and licensed electrician + a permit pronto. That's a poo poo show. I don't even want to know where those red wires that are illegally double tapped into the main lugs are going. The most horrifying part is that it looks like one of them is going to a lug in the box, or at least a really really shady splice. Seriously.....put the cover back on right now. Do not leave that open so if it goes it might burn itself out before extending beyond the box. Motronic fucked around with this message at 02:40 on Jun 18, 2014 |
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Jun 18, 2014 02:37
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Bad Munki posted:My advanced math skills tells me that means it only takes 1 wrap for typical household wiring. And 200 wraps for 40kV! Seems legit. We used this different "packing" tape for higher voltages, it's like this stuff that's really thick non-sticky and elastic electrical tape. Not sure how many volts per turn that is but once that's applied, you seal it up with I think Super 88. We did that for insulating cable-to-bus connections at voltages as high as 13800V at a couple hundred amps. (Touching any medium voltage connection or cable, insulated or not, while live is never recommended.) Three-Phase fucked around with this message at 02:55 on Jun 18, 2014 |
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Jun 18, 2014 02:52
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kid sinister posted:Quad breakers are just tandem breakers riveted together with bars joining the matching amperage breakers so that you would get 120V off either busbar, 240v in total. The 2 pairs of 2-pole breakers made up by a tandem breaker don't even have to be matching amperages. As long as they make quad breakers for your panel, you can use them. They would most likely be your cheapest option, but you might have to get one from your local electrical supplier. I don't think I've ever seen quad breakers at a big box store. Thank you! Last question before I take a break from beating this poo poo to death: would an electrician be willing to rejigger my panel with some quad breakers (if they are available) and wire up a subpanel? Or are they likely to take a look at my jam-packed panel and say "nope. not gonna touch it unless you upgrade to a bigger panel" ...?
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Jun 18, 2014 03:09
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null_pointer posted:Thank you! Last question before I take a break from beating this poo poo to death: would an electrician be willing to rejigger my panel with some quad breakers (if they are available) and wire up a subpanel? Or are they likely to take a look at my jam-packed panel and say "nope. not gonna touch it unless you upgrade to a bigger panel" ...? If things are poo poo show you'll need to find one who need some side money bad. If everything was done properly it's not a problem at all. But often when a panel is full of tandems its an indication that things have been pushed too far for too long. Without a look inside you panel and at the rest of your house no one will know. Hint: hire a qualified and licensed electrician who pulls a permit. Whatever is wrong should be fixed anyway.
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Jun 18, 2014 03:19
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