|
Motronic posted:Yeah..........whether there is a breaker outside or not you need a qualified and licensed electrician + a permit pronto. That's a poo poo show. I don't even want to know where those red wires that are illegally double tapped into the main lugs are going. The most horrifying part is that it looks like one of them is going to a lug in the box, or at least a really really shady splice. It's a shady splice-- They go to a "lightning protector" knobby looking thing. I don't know how that would even work (it wouldn't).
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2014 03:46
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 8, 2024 07:24 |
|
|
How would one go about cleaning a corroded bus inside an outdoor breaker box? (step one, turn off power, step two...? sandpaper, then brush clean, then dielectric grease?) I have a feeling that's what's loving with my GFCI outlet that keeps my beer fridge going (or not going as I found out as I threw away sack after sack of now-inedible meat from the freezer  ). I've used three different GFCI outlets and none of them are working and I trust the wiring far more than I trust the box that had a corrosion issue loving with the main breaker to the house a few months ago.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2014 03:59
|
|
|
Or there's a ground fault in your fridge, and that's tripping the gfci.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2014 04:01
|
|
|
kid sinister posted:I don't think I've ever seen quad breakers at a big box store. they sell them at both home depot and lowe's in my area but only the more common 40/30 or 40/20 ones, depending on the brand. at least where i'm at home depot carries eaton BR, siemens and square D homeline quads.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2014 06:44
|
|
|
Motronic posted:Seriously.....put the cover back on right now. Do not leave that open so if it goes it might burn itself out before extending beyond the box. Most of the guys I work with, jumped straight into the utility side, so frankly they're not familiar with parts of the NEC that don't directly relate to us. Qwijib0 posted:It's a shady splice-- They go to a "lightning protector" knobby looking thing. I don't know how that would even work (it wouldn't). We used to install those for a fee (well, still do but now it's a collar device that goes between the meter and meter lugs). I find them occasionally, installed under the lugs in the meter can. =/ angryrobots fucked around with this message at 13:09 on Jun 18, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2014 12:59
|
|
|
Bad Munki posted:Or there's a ground fault in your fridge, and that's tripping the gfci. I tried swapping out the outlet itself & can't get any of my new GFCI outlets to work, so it isn't the fridge.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2014 13:18
|
|
|
oldskool posted:I tried swapping out the outlet itself & can't get any of my new GFCI outlets to work, so it isn't the fridge. The constant here seems like it could be the fridge. I am not an electrician but... GFCI's protect against things UP stream from it.. In the cases of using a GFCI as the outlet closest to the panel on a circuit protecting all the other outlets that feed through it. The corroded panel isn't feeding into the GFCI. How old is the fridge? If I recall older appliances cause GFCI's to trip when spinning up their motors Have you tried other things on the outlet that aren't the fridge? tater_salad fucked around with this message at 13:56 on Jun 18, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2014 13:46
|
|
|
I've tried a lamp, a small fan and an outlet tester and none of them function when plugged in. If I put the tester against the wires it lights up; hence my thought that the corrosion in the panel is creating enough resistance to cause a differential between hot & neutral that's preventing the GFCI from resetting. There's a 20A breaker in said panel that feeds only this GFCI outlet so my options for why this isn't working are panel, breaker, wire or outlet & I doubt I've got 3 new non-functional GFCI outlets on my hands.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2014 14:28
|
|
|
You need a multimeter
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2014 14:40
|
|
|
Qwijib0 posted:It's a shady splice-- They go to a "lightning protector" knobby looking thing. I don't know how that would even work (it wouldn't). If it's like any of the whole house surge protectors I've seen and installed that one is installed totally incorrectly. And I'm not just talking about the shady splice. Like, "they don't go there" kinda wrong. Those lugs aren't designed to have more than one conductor in them, especially when one of the conductors is aluminum and the other is copper. oldskool posted:How would one go about cleaning a corroded bus inside an outdoor breaker box? (step one, turn off power, step two...? sandpaper, then brush clean, then dielectric grease?) One would replace the load center, not clean it. A good load center has a copper bus bar that is plated with silver or tin (so it doesn't oxidize). This is the cheap part. The breakers are the expensive part.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2014 14:49
|
|
|
What's the best way to childproof an unused 240v outlet? I have one in my living room, presumably from an air conditioner, and it will never be used. It looks like they don't make childproof plugs and I'm a bit worried about just capping the wires and putting a blank wall plate on it. I don't have a kid, but we painted and and figured if I'm changing outlets for color I may as well just out the TR outlets in now. The 240v would be the only one at child-level that isn't protected.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2014 15:15
|
|
|
WeaselWeaz posted:What's the best way to childproof an unused 240v outlet? I have one in my living room, presumably from an air conditioner, and it will never be used. It looks like they don't make childproof plugs and I'm a bit worried about just capping the wires and putting a blank wall plate on it. Unless there is something else on the circuit, just turn off the breaker.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2014 19:41
|
|
|
oldskool posted:How would one go about cleaning a corroded bus inside an outdoor breaker box? (step one, turn off power, step two...? sandpaper, then brush clean, then dielectric grease?) I have a feeling that's what's loving with my GFCI outlet that keeps my beer fridge going (or not going as I found out as I threw away sack after sack of now-inedible meat from the freezer The motors in older major appliances tend to act like false positives to GFCIs and cause them to trip. Have you tried switching GFCI manufacturers yet? I had that same problem with my washing machine and that fixed it. Another thing to try is switching to a commercial grade GFCI from your local electrical supplier.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2014 20:07
|
|
|
kid sinister posted:The motors in older major appliances tend to act like false positives to GFCIs and cause them to trip. Have you tried switching GFCI manufacturers yet? I had that same problem with my washing machine and that fixed it. Another thing to try is switching to a commercial grade GFCI from your local electrical supplier. From above I think that the GFCI isn't the issue, hes saying that lights etc weren't' working in the outlet either. Tester directly to the wires show power (. I read it as the GFCI's were causing it to trip.. but I think he's got a bad connection somewhere. Did you reset the GFCI when you put it in Does the button click in If not is it possible you wired wrong? Usually you need to press the reset button when it's first put in in.. if the reset won't go in it's seeing a ground fault somewhere, or it's wired wrong. They also won't reset if they aren't getting power.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2014 20:50
|
|
|
Cat Hatter posted:Unless there is something else on the circuit, just turn off the breaker. I'm pretty sure there is. Its an older home to there aren't a lot of breakers.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2014 21:09
|
|
|
If correctly wired the 240 wouldn't be co-mingling with 120 lines, are there other 240's in the house? edit: and are you using them? Electric dryer/stove are going to be the most common. tater_salad fucked around with this message at 21:27 on Jun 18, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2014 21:25
|
|
|
tater_salad posted:From above I think that the GFCI isn't the issue, hes saying that lights etc weren't' working in the outlet either. Tester directly to the wires show power (. I read it as the GFCI's were causing it to trip.. but I think he's got a bad connection somewhere. He used the lights to test if the outlet worked. He said that outlet normally powers only his beer fridge. GFCIs will do that when they go bad, refusing to reset even when receiving proper power. oldskool posted:There's a 20A breaker in said panel that feeds only this GFCI outlet FYI, if it's the case that there's only one outlet on that circuit and it's for a major appliance like your fridge, then that outlet would meet the "dedicated circuit" exception for GFCIs and you could install a regular outlet there. I would also pop out that 20A breaker for this circuit and just check for any corrosion or arcing on either it or the busbar. kid sinister fucked around with this message at 22:42 on Jun 18, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2014 22:37
|
|
|
WeaselWeaz posted:What's the best way to childproof an unused 240v outlet? I have one in my living room, presumably from an air conditioner, and it will never be used. It looks like they don't make childproof plugs and I'm a bit worried about just capping the wires and putting a blank wall plate on it. why are you worried about capping them off and blanking the box? that's a perfectly acceptable way of doing it if the receptacle isn't in use. if you go this route i'd go the extra step of labeling the back side of the blank plate (or the front if you don't mind looking at it) stating that it's 240v for whoever may come upon it in the future. if you don't want to take the time to trace out the circuit this is probably your best bet and there's no reason to be worried about doing it this way.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2014 05:36
|
|
|
sbyers77 posted:I bought my house last August and in the inspection the electrical panel was called out because it was an old Federal Pacific stab-lok style panel. In the week between when we took possession and when we actually moved in I replaced the panel with a 200 Amp Eaton CH panel. This was happening recently at my house, and it ended up being #3. I called the power company at 9pm on a Sunday night to see about them sending someone out on Monday to check the connections at the pole/meter, and they sent someone out within 20 minutes. Ended up being a bad crimp connection at the transformer, causing one phase to get fluctuating voltage (100-120v). The AC kicking on was enough to cause everything to flicker quite a bit.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 17:50
|
|
|
I work from home, and hurricane season is approaching. Right now we have a mild thunderstorm outside and the power has flickered and cut out once already. I am worried that if we lose power for more than a couple days in a hurricane I'll have an issue with work. I could get internet through my cell phone (assuming that is even possible after a hurricane) even if the cable went out. To that end, I'm thinking about getting a generator. I don't have a ton of money for it right now, so I am thinking a portable unit that would power my workstation (some laptops, monitors etc) and some essential house stuff like the fridge. Nothing big enough to run the AC. How safe would it be to run a really long extension cord from outside, to a UPS and from there plug in computer equipment/whatever? Should I be looking at getting an electrician in to wire up a transfer switch and use the house wiring? I have a metal shed with plywood floor outside that I could build up a brick platform (flooding) in and vent the exhaust outside through a motorcycle muffler so neighbours don't hate me. Is this going to burn down my house?
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 20:55
|
|
|
GanjamonII posted:I work from home, and hurricane season is approaching. Right now we have a mild thunderstorm outside and the power has flickered and cut out once already. I am worried that if we lose power for more than a couple days in a hurricane I'll have an issue with work. I could get internet through my cell phone (assuming that is even possible after a hurricane) even if the cable went out. So let me get this straight.....you want to rig up an outside unit for inside use and then use extension cords? Can it be done moderately safely? With the proper materials, maybe. But I wouldn't suggest it and if something goes wrong your insurance isn't going to pay out on the damage. If you genuinely need a generator for long term use then get a proper one with an appropriate transfer switch. If you just need something occasionally then get a portable unit, use it as intended (outside) and buy a sufficient number of appropriate gauge extension cords to run your loads.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 21:05
|
|
|
I am going to hit the most important thing first: running a generator in an enclosed or even semi-enclosed space can result in dangerous or lethal CO2 buildup! If you do something like this, you'll need to be extremely careful and make sure you have a way to get intake air in, and exhaust out. This cannot be something you throw together on your own with duct tape and tie wraps. While we're at it, don't even think about backfeeding (using a male/male plug) an outlet to energize part of your house either. The transformer on the pole that goes from 4160 or 7200V down to 240/120V works backwards and forwards, so by putting electricity back into the damaged line you can shock or electrocute a line worker. Or if you're lucky you'll have a couple of pissed off linemen banging on your door and popping off your meter. Some people get away with this by throwing their main, but it's still way too dangerous to do. You can run long extension cords, but they need to be thick enough so voltage drop isn't a problem. Also, you mentioned running the generator into a UPS. My concern there is how sensitive the UPS is. Even though you get a sinusoidal 120V input coming into the UPS, it may not be as clean and well-regulated as the utility. So you may see events where the UPS keeps switching onto battery because it is detecting power quality problems with the power line. Three-Phase fucked around with this message at 21:30 on Jun 20, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 21:28
|
|
|
I appreciate the feedback. I definitely don't want to do anything dangerous, or stupid like backfeeding. Guess its safer to leave it out in the open. I have a canopy I could use to keep the worst of the rain off it. I guess after a hurricane the noise wouldn't be an issue since we wouldn't be the only ones running a generator and it wouldn't run at night. I would get a proper generator cord instead of the extensions I have now since I don't think they're of sufficient thickness, probably 50ft would be enough. The UPS may be an issue, would have to test it I guess. Thanks for the input, glad I asked.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 23:01
|
|
|
n0tqu1tesane posted:This was happening recently at my house, and it ended up being #3. I called the power company at 9pm on a Sunday night to see about them sending someone out on Monday to check the connections at the pole/meter, and they sent someone out within 20 minutes. Ended up being a bad crimp connection at the transformer, causing one phase to get fluctuating voltage (100-120v). The AC kicking on was enough to cause everything to flicker quite a bit. *except during a local lightning storm, which will cause your power companies protective device to operate. If it happens constantly in even good weather, your utility needs to know about it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2014 01:40
|
|
|
I wouldn't bet on getting clean enough power from a generator for a UPS to work properly. Generators can be installed to safely run in enclosed spaces, but it you're asking a DIY thread if you can do it safely you're going to kill yourself or others if you try.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2014 02:05
|
|
|
Not that it's a good idea in his case (it's an awful idea!), but is that really true that UPSes need clean power? I ask because my company has a number of customers in places where the power straight up sucks, and without a UPS or PVR or noise-cut transformer, some of the faster comms links go to poo poo. I understand there's a limit to that, like in Korea where a couple large producers of semiconductors just straight up switch power grids daily and expect 135kVA machinery to not give a poo poo for 50 cycles, but otherwise, I don't understand why lovely power would matter to a rectified cap bank and inverter. fake edit: is this an on-line vs off-line UPS thing that I'm missing?
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2014 02:28
|
|
|
Tim Thomas posted:fake edit: is this an on-line vs off-line UPS thing that I'm missing? Yes. As well as the configurability of an off-line UPS to pass "welp, that's kinda good enough" power which you won't find in many consumer units.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2014 02:43
|
|
|
Are 3-way occupancy sensor switches "smart enough" that if I turn on the lights with one switch (a standard 3-way toggle) and then walk past an occupancy sensor on the same circuit, the occupancy sensor won't toggle the lights off? This is the specific switch I'm looking at getting: http://www.amazon.com/Lutron-MS-OPS5M-WH-Maestro-Single-Occupancy/dp/B005WM3C42
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2014 06:06
|
|
|
rekamso posted:Are 3-way occupancy sensor switches "smart enough" that if I turn on the lights with one switch (a standard 3-way toggle) and then walk past an occupancy sensor on the same circuit, the occupancy sensor won't toggle the lights off? The ones I've looked at don't get wired like a standard 3-way with a traveller. The switch in the box with the load always does the actual switching. The other switch just sends a signal to the master. In this case, I assume that signal would be "Hey, I see motion" not, "Hey, toggle light states." I guess look for a wiring diagram for the switch you want and see if that's the case?
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2014 06:19
|
|
|
Are tamper resistant outlets a huge pain or do they work alright/last? Also, does adding them mean I don't have to put those annoying loving outlet covers everywhere?
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2014 09:07
|
|
|
This is more academic, to satisfy my own curiousity, since I haven't lived at this place in over 10 years, but.. I was renting a room from a friend that owned a 70s single family home. For the most part, the electrical worked decent enough, and it was all copper. There were a lot of missing grounds in one room, and the ceiling fan didn't even have a junction box, but she got the house dirt cheap (foreclosure). The only downright dangerous thing I found was a flying splice in the attic leading to the hall bathroom - you'd have to slam the door to get the lights in there to turn on.  (it was fixed pretty quickly, in a proper junction box)That said.. whenever the clothes washer was agitating, the lights through the entire house would strobe brightly, and the UPS for my PC would bitch constantly until the washer switched over to spin. There was still flickering while it was spinning, but not anywhere near as bad. That was the only thing that would make the lights do more than a brief flicker - the 3 ton a/c kicking on made them flicker for a split second, the clothes dryer didn't make them flinch. I think the washer was probably the highest draw 120V appliance in the house; the microwave would be up there with it, but it didn't make the lights do anything odd. Clothes dryer and range were both 240V electric, water heater was gas. Loose neutral? Something else?
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2014 10:18
|
|
|
One of the things you guys need to consider: with a power grid connection you may have intermittently bad power. The smaller (like islands) or more poorly designed the grid, the more problems you may have. If you have a tiny generator, you might have consistantly bad power. Motronic posted:Yes. Tim Thomas posted:I don't understand why lovely power would matter to a rectified cap bank and inverter. The problem is that a cheap UPS has two or three modes: 1. On the power line, sending the power line to the load and charging the battery 2. Using an internal buck/boost autotransformer to improve voltage regulation when the line sags (120V to 100V) or surges (120V to 140V) 3. Isolating the load from the power line, and using the battery to run an inverter This sort of UPS doesn't isolate the load from the line when it is running normally, only when the UPS goes into battery mode. I had a cheaper UPS that did have a low/medium/high sensitivity setting. If your area had poor power quality, low sensitivity might help. I always kept mine set to "high". A better UPS uses double conversion - it always transforms AC to DC then back to AC (many variable speed drives do that too). Because of that, you can have much shittier AC coming in that will never reach the load. As long as the AC voltage coming to the rectifier stage (AC to DC) in is consistent enough to keep the DC link at a voltage high enough to run the inverter (DC to AC), you don't need to switch to battery to protect yourself from some power quality problems that would freak out other UPS units. Double-conversion UPS units, even smaller ones, are way more expensive. I think Eaton sells some deskside ones starting maybe around $400. The ones I've used are commercial 480/277V units that cost like $150,000 and needs a room full of batteries. (Plus the output on those were extremely clean, like less THD than the incoming power line, and the output was a very clean sinusoid.) Three-Phase fucked around with this message at 14:38 on Jun 21, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2014 14:27
|
|
|
PuTTY riot posted:Are tamper resistant outlets a huge pain or do they work alright/last? Also, does adding them mean I don't have to put those annoying loving outlet covers everywhere? I'm not sure why you would HAVE to put covers on outlets, but if you mean because of a non code reason like you have small children around then no, you wouldn't need to to TR outlets. That's the point of them. They work fine, but may take some getting used to. Some plugs needs to be wiggled a bit before the blade slots "open" in the outlet. It hasn't been a big deal for me......I accidentally bought a box and have been living with them in my kitchen for several months now. I don't even really notice anymore.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2014 15:19
|
|
|
PuTTY riot posted:Are tamper resistant outlets a huge pain or do they work alright/last? Also, does adding them mean I don't have to put those annoying loving outlet covers everywhere? You have to insert both sides of the plug at the same time, some people apparently have tremendous difficulty doing this but so long as you're not stupid they should work great. You don't need an outlet cover because the covers won't open unless your kid stabs a key into both sides of the outlet at the same time. Your kid can still shove a foreign object into the ground hole, but that
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2014 15:41
|
|
|
angryrobots posted:Split second dimming on large load startup is normal. Persistent flickering/blinking is not ever normal*, neither is lights getting very bright when other loads are switched on. Glad you had it checked before it caused equipment damage. It actually got worse after a lightning storm that fried my TV, Xbox 360, Wii, and cable box.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2014 18:31
|
|
|
n0tqu1tesane posted:It actually got worse after a lightning storm that fried my TV, Xbox 360, Wii, and cable box. The service entrance all the way from the pole to the lugs in your main (or only) breaker panel need to be inspected. This includes the meter base. Some of this is on you, some of this will likely be handled by your power company. This is something you should do sooner rather than later.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2014 18:55
|
|
|
Crotch Fruit posted:You have to insert both sides of the plug at the same time, some people apparently have tremendous difficulty doing this but so long as you're not stupid they should work great. As I child I shocked myself once by sticking my finger in between the blades of a partially plugged in plug. I think the anti-tamper shutters are a great idea that will save lives, but ultimately NEMA outlets and plugs are still pretty much unsafe by design.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2014 19:14
|
|
|
Motronic posted:Some plugs needs to be wiggled a bit before the blade slots "open" in the outlet. That was a problem with the first couple generations of TR outlets. Modern ones seem to be a lot better at that. Three-Phase posted:I think the anti-tamper shutters are a great idea that will save lives, but ultimately NEMA outlets and plugs are still pretty much unsafe by design. And there's the problem with updates, you can't update a design too drastically without making old devices incompatible. Personally, I like what they did with the UK and Euro plugs: plastic dip the hot prongs except for the tips where they make contact.
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2014 21:38
|
|
|
kid sinister posted:That was a problem with the first couple generations of TR outlets. Modern ones seem to be a lot better at that. I bought these 2 or 3 months ago  They are as modern as you can get unless I'm missing a bleeding edge here.Most things work just fine. But if you have a plug that's been bent at all......you're wiggling. I'm not at all trying to say anything against TR. I think they are very good so far. But I'm being realistic. I don't even have young children anymore and I'm still going to continue through the rest of my house with them as I'm remodeling or just painting as appropriate. They are good enough that I don't see a reason not to, even just for the fact that they are (at least lightly but not rated as) splash proof (not by design, but in a kitchen or a bathroom downstream of the GFCI.....WHY NOT?). And seriously...what's the fall out if or when one fails.......it's an outlet replacement. It's $2 and 5 minutes.
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2014 23:05
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 8, 2024 07:24 |
|
|
Yeah, I've got a curious 2 year old. So here's another outlet question. As far as I can tell, I have to have GFCI everywhere on the kitchen counter, right? Even if it's a 'galley' style kitchen where the stove is on one side and the 'wet' stuff on the other. So is there ever a time where those USB wall outlets installed on a kitchen counter are code compliant? As far as I can tell GFCI & USB outlets just don't exist.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2014 15:11
|
|