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head58 posted:How's that? Strange isn't in 30 at all? This page  It's overwhelming-- all-consuming-- and I can't shut it off. That isn't a very Captain America idea. That sounds much more like Stark or Reed who can't get an idea out of their head until they work through it. Senor Candle fucked around with this message at 14:34 on Jun 18, 2014 |
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Jun 18, 2014 14:12
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Hawkeye eloquently asks the same as me: what the hell is going on?
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Jun 18, 2014 14:26
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Senor Candle posted:This page He's quoting what Tony said to him in issue 1.
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Jun 18, 2014 15:00
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Thurm posted:He's quoting what Tony said to him in issue 1. You're right! I was thinking it was Steve who had said that. Nevermind then.
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Jun 18, 2014 15:17
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Senor Candle posted:You're right! I was thinking it was Steve who had said that. Nevermind then. Except, and this is something I hadn't thought of until Senor Candle posted it. Suppose New Avengers #2 or 3 (whichever issue featured the mind wipe) even though it was published AFTER Avengers #1, was actually set before it. IE the Illumaniti meet, assemble the Gauntlet, break it and mindwipe Cap. Then after the mindwipe, Cap decides to put together a bigger, better Avengers. One that confirms to a Tony Stark/ Reed Richards design. Maybe it was Cap's subconcious defence to the Illumanti by creating a super-sized Avengers team. Or, more worryingly, what if it was an idea implanted by Tony/Stephen/Reed to create a team of super-muscle that they will need in the future.
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Jun 18, 2014 17:03
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The Question IRL posted:Except, and this is something I hadn't thought of until Senor Candle posted it. It was set before Avengers 1. Avengers 1 has him waking up from a dream of the mind wipe.
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Jun 18, 2014 17:09
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I thought that Stark had the idea of the huge, powerful Avengers team in placed Steve's mind so that Steve could put together this powerful team which could deal with almost any threat that came their way giving the Illumanti the opportiunity to make their sole focus the threat of the incursions.
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Jun 18, 2014 17:22
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Starsnostars posted:I thought that Stark had the idea of the huge, powerful Avengers team in placed Steve's mind so that Steve could put together this powerful team which could deal with almost any threat that came their way giving the Illumanti the opportunity to make their sole focus the threat of the incursions. Banner said as much during his meeting in Avengers #29   This is also what made me think that Tony implanted the idea into Cap's head. Senor Candle fucked around with this message at 17:30 on Jun 18, 2014 |
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Jun 18, 2014 17:25
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The Question IRL posted:Except, and this is something I hadn't thought of until Senor Candle posted it. Banner basically lays this all out in Avengers 28, saying the roster and the wheel are all Tony's designs and Tony's ideas, he just somehow tricked Cap into taking the lead on it.
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Jun 18, 2014 17:25
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Senor Candle posted:Banner said as much during his meeting in Avengers #29 True these pages do make it clear. It's my own fault, the first time I read them I was convinced that the Bruce was the evil impersonator, that I spent all my time trying to find proof of that instead of focusing on what he was saying. Well this just makes what the Illumanti all the worse. And I suppose a wee bit ironic when they get their heads busted by a super powered Avenger's team that is too powerful for their super brains to work against. That's something that even Alanis Morissette would contend as being ironic.
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Jun 18, 2014 17:59
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Today's Avengers is probably the first time in Hickman's run where I figuratively threw my hands up in the air and asked myself "what the gently caress did I just read?"
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Jun 18, 2014 19:06
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Senor Candle posted:This page This man has learned nothing from Civil war.
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Jun 18, 2014 19:22
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CharlestheHammer posted:This man has learned nothing from Civil war. This is a bit of a different situation.
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Jun 18, 2014 19:31
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Senor Candle posted:This is a bit of a different situation. Talking about Tony.
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Jun 18, 2014 19:40
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CharlestheHammer posted:Talking about Tony. Well he only know of his actions during Civil War. He no longer remembers what he did.
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Jun 18, 2014 19:43
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Actually, in that context, it sort of makes sense that he'd just do it all over again. With the benefit of his partial hindsight, it does seem like it worked out better than the first time.
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Jun 18, 2014 19:54
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Hakkesshu posted:Today's Avengers is probably the first time in Hickman's run where I figuratively threw my hands up in the air and asked myself "what the gently caress did I just read?" -It is not known if these future events are destined to occur or are part of a branching time-line that is avoidable. -Future Thor is no longer worthy to wield Mjolnir. -Cap has self doubts about how to face the Illuminati, being of a level of intelligence not even close to the them combined. -Ultron-Avengers were built as symbols of a communal memory for the remaining humans on earth. Being "of the past," they struggle to reconcile the ideals of the former age in a time where ideals no longer exist. Ultron-Natasha understanding the resourcefulness of her human counterpart, wishes to free herself from the Ultron hive-mind. Natasha has directives now for the next future jump and present Stark (See this wiki page on a forest that is one intertwined root system) -Cap is now a bomb (for the future? the past?) Something else is going on also. The drones they first encounter are spouting some sort of numerical code, and Ultron-Cap says, "Break the code, you get the box." At first I thought it referred to their enclosure but I'm thinking it's something else entirely. The time jumps are happening because it seems the Time Gem is trying to prevent itself from shattering, perhaps this is something they need to do to fix it and prevent more jumps? Perhaps all of this is some kind of metaphor, the shattering gem and the people of the future becoming more and more broken as time moves forward? hope and vaseline fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Jun 18, 2014 |
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Jun 18, 2014 20:04
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notthegoatseguy posted:The Illuminati proper fails. During the FF Dark Reign mini, Reed used the bridge to see successful Illuminatis and they are all successful only because he either blackmails or kills the other members. He only kills them the once I think. The focus more was that it was about Reed Richards acting alone, which then bridged heh us into the various Reeds acting in concert and our Reed being the only one with his family etc. I'd be interested in seeing a gathering of living Reeds after all this is over.
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Jun 19, 2014 04:13
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I think the reason that the Avengers has been built this way is to stop the Illuminati after they succeed. It's a failsafe for the Illuminati which is doing what's neccessary but Tony doesn't think that he'll be able to stop after they succeed and they need that team to stop them from basically well, saying if we were willing to destroy a living world, why can't we change our own world and they'd all justify it.
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Jun 20, 2014 01:30
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hope and vaseline posted:-It is not known if these future events are destined to occur or are part of a branching time-line that is avoidable. To be fair I'm pretty sure nobody involved with the comic knows either. Time Travel is always the worst plot device and unless it's really well thought-out or fun time adventures it's basically always just the biggest mess. The "sprinkle-plot-points and then just make crap up to justify it then explain it all away with fatalism" is already lame, but in comics it's even worse since it's basically "It makes no sense? haha that's my replacement's problem later nerds" My hateboner for time travel aside, I'm still enjoying this storyline, especially since the overall feel seems to be "gently caress self-absorbed pragmatism" which I can always get behind. The Avengers' greatest challenge will be convincing Tony Stark he's wrong ever. I remember some point in World War Hulk when he and everything were getting the absolute dogshit beat out of them by a pissed-off Hulk and he was like "This was a good decision and I was a smart person for making it." Yinlock fucked around with this message at 06:37 on Jun 20, 2014 |
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Jun 20, 2014 04:43
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I feel like the exact same thing happened after Civil War, when he'd rebooted his brain and Thor came to confront him, at which point he was all "Everything I did, I did because I thought it was the best thing to do and would save the most amount of lives, I'm not sorry and I would do it all again", and instead of bringing Mjolnir down on his head like a tent peg, Thor shook his hand and flew away. Tony is 'the ends justify the means' given flesh, and the problem is he's not capable of actually making sure that the ends turn out spiffy. The dude orchestrated an incredibly morally reprehensible chain of events that resulted in supervillains on the government dime hunting down and detaining heroes, and a literal clone of Thor murdering Bill Foster, and he's not sorry? What an unrepentant cocknugget.
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Jun 20, 2014 05:51
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Vindicator posted:The dude orchestrated an incredibly morally reprehensible chain of events that resulted in supervillains on the government dime hunting down and detaining heroes, and a literal clone of Thor murdering Bill Foster, and he's not sorry? What an unrepentant cocknugget. Despite everything else, the death of Bill Foster is the one thing in the main Civil War series that shatters my suspension of disbelief like the second Amazing Man. That should of been the point of no return but everyone is just kind of cool with it after the series is over,
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Jun 20, 2014 06:02
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Bill is still dead and completely forgotten, right?
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Jun 20, 2014 10:27
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This one time his kid was mad and showed up in a bad and confusing Bendis Avengers story that everyone already forgot. That's about it.
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Jun 20, 2014 12:08
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Didn't his kid join Damage Control or something like that?
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Jun 20, 2014 14:36
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The only Marvel time travel story I ever really liked was the one where Arno Stark Iron Man travels back to the present to get the DNA of a future terrorist with a grudge against Stark Industries whose threatening to nuke New York. He finds said terrorist as a kid, gets into a fight with a passing Spidey who objects to his heavy-handedness, cripples the kid in the process, causing Spidey to go apeshit and kick seventy shades of poo poo out of him before he flees back to the future and finds the bomb's gone off in his absence. Nice, simple causality loop with some hot angry Spider-Man action for good measure. Everything else just turns into a stupidly complicated paradoxical bag of bobbins.
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Jun 20, 2014 14:59
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He also kills the Blizzard, for some reason I can't be bothered to remember. That latest issue of Avengers was really good.
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Jun 20, 2014 16:29
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Sentinel Red posted:The only Marvel time travel story I ever really liked was the one where Arno Stark Iron Man travels back to the present to get the DNA of a future terrorist with a grudge against Stark Industries whose threatening to nuke New York. He finds said terrorist as a kid, gets into a fight with a passing Spidey who objects to his heavy-handedness, cripples the kid in the process, causing Spidey to go apeshit and kick seventy shades of poo poo out of him before he flees back to the future and finds the bomb's gone off in his absence. Speaking of a completely different Arno Stark, I kind of want to see him on the Illuminati. A genetically engineered supergenius meant to uplift mankind while operating on a different paradigm of thought as the likes of Richards or T'Challa? Better him than Namor: they've got the Hulk now, so they have they're super-strength quota filled (strongest there is, in fact) with one of the smartest people on Earth to boot. Let's just pack that roster full of nerds. Anyways, I've seen panels floating around that elaborate more on the Great Society (their name for one), and also somewhere the Illuminati of alternate Earths with alternate Mr. Fantastics giving the same speech as well as an errant Sun God going off-script; is that NA #20, or am I missing something?
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Jun 20, 2014 17:32
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First Bass posted:Anyways, I've seen panels floating around that elaborate more on the Great Society (their name for one), and also somewhere the Illuminati of alternate Earths with alternate Mr. Fantastics giving the same speech as well as an errant Sun God going off-script; is that NA #20, or am I missing something? The Sun God speech is from #16.
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Jun 20, 2014 17:58
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So maybe I missed something at the beginning, but the whole business with the incursions was that all the Earths are in roughly the same place in their own universes, right? So when incursions start incursing, two Earths physically crash into each other and because Earth is a multiversal whatsit point that destroys both universes involved. Is there a reason the Illuminati couldn't have, instead of using the omnipotent Infinity Gauntlet to push a different Earth away from ours (which was dangerous since Infinities Gauntlet only work correctly in their home universe), just used it to move the solar system a bit to the left or something? Or if not the Infinity Gauntlet, one of the shitloads of other cosmic power artifacts? Sure it's a huge deal, but if you're already committing to pushing planets around or blowing them up and killing all the people on them...
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Jun 22, 2014 06:45
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I think Swan mentioned that while that is an option it basically puts the universe out of the incursion game meaning the Illiminati's goal of stopping the entire thing from continuing goes nowhere. Same as just evacuating and blowing up Earth. It just gives you a bit more time as the incursions cause ALL universe to end sooner.
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Jun 22, 2014 07:04
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:I think Swan mentioned that while that is an option it basically puts the universe out of the incursion game meaning the Illiminati's goal of stopping the entire thing from continuing goes nowhere. Well, it gives you more time, and critically the time it gives you isn't spent preparing to blow up another planet to save your own, letting you focus on the bigger picture from a position of relative safety. Speaking of Black Swan, is her mind unreadable or something? Serious question. It strikes me that if you're dead set on being Pragmatism Crew and time is of the essence you're going to put your prisoner's brain through a fine sieve rather than let her hand you gnomic utterances forever. I dunno, it just makes me think the Illuminati are jerks more concerned with coming off as being grim, steely-eyed invokers of moral austerity than solving the problem. Which may actually be the point of the book, mind.
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Jun 22, 2014 07:14
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Hickman has covered that base, relocate the earth and you are stranded in your own universe after the incursion passes until the whole multiverse comes crashing down. Incursions are not natural, whatever is causing them has rigged the game well enough that opting out still gets you destroyed just a little later.
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Jun 22, 2014 07:32
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Maybe it has something to do with this?
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Jun 22, 2014 08:00
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Heheheh, lookit' Uatu's stubby lil' arms. Moreso than normal anyway... Oh, and the dead cosmic arbiter of justice I guess. VVVVV - Agreed Madrox fucked around with this message at 11:57 on Jun 22, 2014 |
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Jun 22, 2014 11:30
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It's going to take some drat fancy payoff to make that page any less stupid than the time Galactus' skull fell out of the sky in the 90s.
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Jun 22, 2014 11:55
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The Watcher's murder gets a whole event, but Eternity's a single page.
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Jun 22, 2014 12:54
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WickedHate posted:The Watcher's murder gets a whole event, but Eternity's a single page. That's the Living Tribunal, I'm pretty sure the Marvel universe wouldn't exist if Eternity got killed.
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Jun 22, 2014 16:19
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I'm not really sad about the Living Tribunal being dead right now since it's not like they were anything other than a boring plot device anyway. I'm sure Hickman will talk about it by the end of his run, but for now it comes off as letting readers know why the boring all powerful cosmic being hasn't been doing their job to stop the universes from killing each other.
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Jun 22, 2014 16:45
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Dammit Who? posted:So maybe I missed something at the beginning, but the whole business with the incursions was that all the Earths are in roughly the same place in their own universes, right? redbackground fucked around with this message at 04:54 on Jun 23, 2014 |
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Jun 23, 2014 04:49
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