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TildeATH posted:I think people are underestimating how radically the living world is going to change the experience of the game. I'm still not sure if you're kidding or not.
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Jun 18, 2014 14:42
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I'm still not sure if you're kidding or not. Oh, I don't know. Some of these will be neat. Megabeasts occupying civ sites. Reclaiming sites from them with your adventurer. Civs building sites after worldgen. Site claiming. Fleeing commanders try to return to their camps. Patrols that raise alarms. Anything Entity Group or Heritage related. That's just stuff related to the living world. There's lots of neat poo poo. Though I'm not so keen that it took two years for this update. Makes me worry about future releases. Zesty fucked around with this message at 15:50 on Jun 18, 2014 |
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Jun 18, 2014 15:48
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Dude, he took over two years to pull off the .40d -> 0.31 release too. It's not like he's winding down for retirement.
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Jun 18, 2014 16:03
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Long intervals are probably inevitable with how the size and complexity of the game's codebase has developed. Wasn't it Toady himself who mentioned that making changes always takes more time than he anticipates, mostly because of unpredicted links in the program?
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Jun 18, 2014 20:06
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He's also said that he has been cleaning up the codebase steadily as he's been going. Apparently, it's getting more organized. There's still tangled messes deep in the code, but more and more he's both adding features and detangling it. I suppose that coding constantly on a single program for years (decades?) will improve your coding standards eventually.
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Jun 18, 2014 20:35
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Absolutely. It's the big stuff that has me worried, like multithreading. If that change ever is made, it will take a pretty big overhaul, and every update between now and that hypothetical transition only makes the task larger. Hopefully the user who helped Toady with graphics optimization will get SHADER working sometime soon.
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Jun 18, 2014 20:37
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I'm still not sure if you're kidding or not. Yeah, honestly I'm not sure how much most of the changes will impact on Fortress mode. Lots of stuff in there for the Adventurers, but otherwise, it seems to be mainly having to build taller walls, and seeing some chunkier trees.
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Jun 18, 2014 20:58
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Ghostwoods posted:Yeah, honestly I'm not sure how much most of the changes will impact on Fortress mode. Lots of stuff in there for the Adventurers, but otherwise, it seems to be mainly having to build taller walls, and seeing some chunkier trees. The living world will become extremely relevant to Fortress Mode once you can send out armies.
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Jun 18, 2014 21:12
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I haven't played in a long time (3 years?) but I truly do love this game and sometimes I get The Cravings. I was wondering if anything has changed with the following situations: a: Pathing for picking stuff up. A dwarf working in a shop would rather path down 100 z-levels to get to a piece of stone directly below them than walk 10 steps over to get a stone beside them. Even if it means the dwarf also has to path over a bunch of units to get to the downward stairs. Last I checked, Toady just couldn't comprehend what everyone was talking about with this one but it was a super obvious problem. Has this been fixed? b: the military system being complete poo poo since he made it more complicated. Dwarves not training unless the stars aligned. The impossibility of getting military to deal with loving anything, when before he screwed it up it was unwieldy but still simple to get your dwarves geared and stationed where you wanted them. Has the military shittiness changed at all? Thanks!
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Jun 18, 2014 22:01
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The new military system actually offers a much greater degree of control and usefulness than the old one, at least ever since the initial bugs got squished. It's a pain in the rear end to learn for the first time, and every problem you describe could just as easily be caused by ignorance (or just forgetfulness) as by actual bugs, but once you get a handle on it it's a powerful tool. I don't think pathfinding has been seriously revisited since the move to 3D.
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Jun 18, 2014 22:08
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I've been playing for years and I've never used workflow in DFHack until today and my god it's beautiful. It really cuts down on so much micromanagement of my forts resources.
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Jun 18, 2014 22:08
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Neurion posted:I've been playing for years and I've never used workflow in DFHack until today and my god it's beautiful. It really cuts down on so much micromanagement of my forts resources. I would love to see a handful of bog-standard workflow scripts all together somewhere. There was a thread for them on the bay12 forums but last time I checked I think it was dead.
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Jun 18, 2014 22:11
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:The new military system actually offers a much greater degree of control and usefulness than the old one, at least ever since the initial bugs got squished. It's a pain in the rear end to learn for the first time, and every problem you describe could just as easily be caused by ignorance (or just forgetfulness) as by actual bugs, but once you get a handle on it it's a powerful tool. Thanks for the reply. Half my frustrations with the Military were probably my own lack of patience, and I have gotten around all the other obtuseness in Fortress Mode so I can probably figure the military out if I try a bit more. The pathing thing is extremely disappointing to me. When it was brought up to Toady on more than one occasion he simply seemed unable to understand the issue which leads me to believe he doesn't even play fortress mode. Has it truly not been fixed in all these years? Sorry for being incredulous. So if there is going to be a patch soon, can we maybe get Toady to fix the pathing thing immediately after? It's pretty simple, dwarves are (were?) just not taking Z-levels into account when calculating distances for priorities of actions. Still find it hard to believe that that has never been fixed 
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Jun 18, 2014 23:45
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I think for some things (like choosing which of the available rocks to grab when building a wall), the game just picks whichever is closest in a straight line rather than choosing the one with the shortest path (probably because the actual pathfinding is terribly slow and needs to be used as little as possible). So a rock 10 levels directly below would be preferred over one 11 tiles away on the same level, but not over one 9 tiles away. The only problem I've had with pathfinding is that it gets slow after a while (leading to low FPS), with a big fort and lots of items. If Toady doesn't play fortress mode much, that wouldn't be noticeable or a problem for him... As for the military system, it's needlessly complex and yet doesn't give you enough control. You can control pretty much every detail of someone's uniform, but you can't give orders beyond "attack this guy" and "go here". You can force someone to wear a specific sock, but you can't make your squads fight in formation (so they'll charge one by one into a storm of goblin arrows). It's generally easier to just build elaborate traps to kill any invaders.
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Jun 19, 2014 00:29
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Apoffys posted:As for the military system, it's needlessly complex and yet doesn't give you enough control. You can control pretty much every detail of someone's uniform, but you can't give orders beyond "attack this guy" and "go here". Not strictly true. You can set up patrol routes, you can make dwarves fight, work, and train in shifts, and uniform control is actually a huge upgrade over how it used to work. Formations might be useful if a properly trained dwarf weren't capable of slaughtering whole armies by themselves, but, well, they are. 
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Jun 19, 2014 01:04
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Turpitude posted:Thanks for the reply. Half my frustrations with the Military were probably my own lack of patience, and I have gotten around all the other obtuseness in Fortress Mode so I can probably figure the military out if I try a bit more. He obviously plays fortress mode, it would be impossible to test the game otherwise. As for not fixing it, it's only really a big deal if you dig a lot of z-levels below workshops and only place stairs far away from the workshop. Not everyone is going to design fortresses that way. There are workarounds to the problem using burrows or stockpile feeding: dwarfs will only consider resources within their burrow. Likewise if any stockpile is giving to a workshop, dwarfs will never get resources from anywhere except stockpiles feeding that workshop.
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Jun 19, 2014 01:15
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Apoffys posted:As for the military system, it's needlessly complex and yet doesn't give you enough control. You can control pretty much every detail of someone's uniform, but you can't give orders beyond "attack this guy" and "go here". You can force someone to wear a specific sock, but you can't make your squads fight in formation (so they'll charge one by one into a storm of goblin arrows). It's generally easier to just build elaborate traps to kill any invaders. Archers are still hilariously hosed in terms of intuitiveness and usability. In order to get them to train you have to: 1. Create the training room. 2. Assign a weapon manually, since if it does it automatically it can gently caress up shooting if they randomly decide to pick up the wrong ammo type. 3. Manually check the ammo in the quiver if you have more than one type assigned. Since dwarves apparently can't always differentiate types. 4. Ensure that all ranger related labors are toggled off. Since they keep them from training due to a gear assignment conflict within the labors. 5. Have 25 stacked or more type arrows. Apparently archers don't use the cheap 5 stack type that are actually easy to make. They also will randomly skip over collected stacks of arrows in vanilla. 6. Configure ammo material type manually for the squad. This means going through each ammo type and creating separated ammo types according to material and type for training. Doing this in any mod can also be excruciatingly boring if you have a large number of squads. Or just if you have a large number of squads in vanilla. 7. Set up a barracks and assign sleeping designations to both it and the target. Since they sometimes glitch out and don't train otherwise. No clue why they need a barracks to train. Another programming fluke that's tied to melee troops probably. 8. Have the squad "off duty" at all times, since active/training is actually code for "train constantly in melee", with inactive having the training settings for archery bound to it. This by no means means they will train. It just means they prioritize it very highly. And probably some other stuff i'm forgetting. Doing any of those things wrong will most likely lead to a failure you cannot immediately identify unless you've muddled through and memorized the process of getting a proper ranged force going. And even if you do all of that, somehow get a proper industry set up to accommodate the constant arrow use (That will probably be expensive for training, since they can't handle small stacks for it.), and manage to muddle through the completely counter-intuitive (to the fact where the training mode actually does the opposite) system, they're still not good as a snap reaction force. Why? Because it takes them a fair amount of time to gear up with combat arrows once you set them to active. Otherwise they roll into combat with melee attacks and get killed. Most of the uniform system completely screwed up how they worked. I actually had to go out of game and find a random post that explained that training mode borks their AI. There's definitely some room for improvements still. Archonex fucked around with this message at 02:26 on Jun 19, 2014 |
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Jun 19, 2014 01:16
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Splode posted:Living world + retiring forts. next patch, it'll be less dwarf fortress and more dwarf empire. For some reason I want to see if it is possible to build a road across the world by starting and retiring forts all along it. Each fort builds a patch of the road as far as they can and is then retired, the new fort starting up right next to them to continue it.
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Jun 19, 2014 02:10
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Archonex posted:Archers are still hilariously hosed in terms of intuitiveness and usability. In order to get them to train you have to: Create squad, archer uniform, make sure they can only use metal bolts for combat and wooden bolts for training in the ammo screen. Set the squad to active/training, go to the orders screen and change the default 10 on duty to 7 or 8 for all months. Works for me every time. It's pretty simple to set up the ammo types, the thing that sucks is that when they become master hammermen they don't like to pick up bolts anymore. e: you have to use DFhack at least for the bug fixes in the background for it to be that smooth I guess Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 04:15 on Jun 19, 2014 |
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Jun 19, 2014 04:02
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Archonex posted:Archers are still hilariously hosed in terms of intuitiveness and usability. In order to get them to train you have to: Ah hah! Yes, my frustrations from years ago are all coming back now. I remember now that no matter what I did I couldn't get archers to train at my beautiful archery targets on the ramparts, and instead had to train them all as Hunters, which was amusing because they would always stumble into goblin ambushes and get injured causing a chain reaction of dwarves charging out to save them (steal their stuff). And when I assigned like 30 hunters they eventually killed every animal in the world, I think.
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Jun 19, 2014 04:04
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Archonex posted:8. Have the squad "off duty" at all times, since active/training is actually code for "train constantly in melee", with inactive having the training settings for archery bound to it. This by no means means they will train. It just means they prioritize it very highly. Mmm, I found that they'll eventually get back to actual range drills when they've had the chance to get those armor lectures and punching demonstrations out of their system. Your way works much faster, but they'll interrupt their shooting for every little thing.
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Jun 19, 2014 06:56
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chiefnewo posted:For some reason I want to see if it is possible to build a road across the world by starting and retiring forts all along it. Each fort builds a patch of the road as far as they can and is then retired, the new fort starting up right next to them to continue it. It won't appear as a road on the map, nor would it be perfect because you can't build on the map edge, so there will be a blank couple tiles along the road every map site distance. It sounds amazingly  to have wanted to do that at all considering the size of the world and how long dwarves take to actually build poo poo.
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Jun 19, 2014 07:19
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Met posted:It won't appear as a road on the map, nor would it be perfect because you can't build on the map edge, so there will be a blank couple tiles along the road every map site distance. No don't! The very moment we are able to send out road crews to build roads outside our settlement, Toady will code it so that wagons require roads to travel. It will be some 12 year quest to build roads out of the mountains and all the way to the nearest human town to get proper wagon trains to visit. The worst megaproject.
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Jun 19, 2014 07:55
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Met posted:It won't appear as a road on the map, nor would it be perfect because you can't build on the map edge, so there will be a blank couple tiles along the road every map site distance.
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Jun 19, 2014 08:12
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chiefnewo posted:For some reason I want to see if it is possible to build a road across the world by starting and retiring forts all along it. Each fort builds a patch of the road as far as they can and is then retired, the new fort starting up right next to them to continue it. Go big, make a minecart track. You'll have to put in jumps to handle site boundaries.
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Jun 19, 2014 08:18
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Angela Christine posted:No don't! That would depend on how well automated it was. I assume that the next step for the release two years hence will be off site command - sending out armies and work parties - it may be that you will be able to set work parties to build a road from your fort to the town of Unreliable Breaches nearby, twenty of your dwarves will go off map, and you won't hear from them for three years until they pop back saying the road is complete. Unless they get ambushed, at which point you get moved to that location to fight out the battle. This being DF of course, it will take 20 key presses to order this, and half the time the builders will decide that the quickest way to get to a place is right through the necromancers fortress, giving him a nice easy route to attack you from.
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Jun 19, 2014 08:18
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Zereth posted:You can build roads on the map edge, I think. Maybe also floors. Hm. I was extrapolating from a question I had years ago about using two forts to create a bridge across a sea that was narrow enough to only cover two map sites. Maybe that would make a viable bridge now that we can jump.
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Jun 19, 2014 08:27
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My solution for archer training is to set them all as hunters and ignore all the military training options. They practice by shooting the living poo poo out of the wildlife instead of targets, and when invaders arrive, they tend to already be carrying a crossbow and bolts, and tend to already be outside where they can shoot. Usually lets a bunch of civilians escape back to the fortress.
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Jun 19, 2014 13:40
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Splode posted:My solution for archer training is to set them all as hunters and ignore all the military training options. They practice by shooting the living poo poo out of the wildlife instead of targets, and when invaders arrive, they tend to already be carrying a crossbow and bolts, and tend to already be outside where they can shoot. Usually lets a bunch of civilians escape back to the fortress. This is my approach as well. It's way easier than trying to figure out what arcane sequence of actions will get them to use the practice targets, and cheap bone/wood bolts are still perfectly useful for hunting so it doesn't use up any more of your good ammo than training would.
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Jun 19, 2014 13:56
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scamtank posted:Mmm, I found that they'll eventually get back to actual range drills when they've had the chance to get those armor lectures and punching demonstrations out of their system. Your way works much faster, but they'll interrupt their shooting for every little thing. It actually prioritizes it as the only thing to do so long as you have large stacks of ammo available. Their spouse can be dying of thirst in the hospital wing, half the fort can be burning down, and a megabeast can be rampaging through the halls, and they'll still be obsessed about training. It's also the most efficient system for getting their skill levels up to the point where a single bolt from a high end crossbow will decapitate a megabeast too. Since projectiles are still incredibly powerful with a bit of training. They're just a pain in the rear end to get trained up in fortress mode. The problem comes from keeping track of them. If you prefer to use the colored system for job names it completely screws it up. Along with the fact that military usually places towards the end of the list, which it also screws up. Which in turn makes it hard to tell what to select for a job/whatever if you aren't familiar with the names of your dwarves. If there was a workaround for the "they never use small stacks of bolts" thing it'd be pretty tolerable. As it is I have to set up like 1-2 forges that have ammo production on repeat. Or just use guns in Masterwork, since you can produce stacks of 100 bullets per bar. That being said, since the new ammo types were added a few updates ago though i've taken to using bolts early on. The broadhead type bolts are hilariously powerful if you attack unarmored targets. We're talking, one gets fired, and something gets straight up cleaved in half. Really, the new ammo types could be reckoned as the equivalent of hollow point and armor piercing bullets. Which is a nice counter to the hand cannons that you can get from humans and bandits. For a long time getting a stock of decently made hand cannons and cannonballs meant you could do horrifyingly gory things to anything that wanted to assault your fort. We're talking, things straight up detonating into their component parts if it hit their chest. The only problem was that most of the supplies had to be taken from trade only, which meant training up on proxy muskets so your rifle dwarves could do appropriate damage with what's basically a freaking hand held mortar. Archonex fucked around with this message at 14:08 on Jun 19, 2014 |
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Jun 19, 2014 14:00
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The piercing bolts are also comically overpowered in Masterwork. The copper ones would go straight through elven mithril root armor like it was nothing.
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Jun 19, 2014 16:15
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Dmaonk posted:The piercing bolts are also comically overpowered in Masterwork. The copper ones would go straight through elven mithril root armor like it was nothing. They're not so much comically overpowered as much as hyper specialized. I tried bringing out the wrong type in a fight against a colossus and the results were amazingly gory. The bolts just kept plinking off of the colossus up until I brought out a guy with a cannon to blow its head off. It's definitely a gameplay feature that rewards thinking about the situation. Are you surrounded by hostile nations that like to launch five sieges each season? If so, crafting the armor piercing variant is probably better. But if you're in an area with not much civilization or lots of unarmored targets and lots of huntable wildlife then the broadheads are better. Especially during zombie apocalypse style sieges, since they drop their equipment on death. There's a third type, but I think it's designed for enemies like the colussus. Never used it so I don't know how it works. Though I know it's basically a hammer type projectile. Which I assume means it can send enemies flying like with cannon shots provided the shooter is strong enough/the weapon is well designed enough.
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Jun 19, 2014 16:51
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Zereth posted:You can build roads on the map edge, I think. Maybe also floors. This is correct about roads. Not sure about floors, but I know you can't build walls at the map's edge. I vaguely remember the story of a guy from Bay12Forums who wanted to do a Great Wall of China type megaproject, and created a bunch of 1x16 fortresses across a continent to make it happen. I think he used only marble blocks. And since the game doesn't allow you to build walls within something like 5 squares of the map's edge, he decided to pretend that the wall was ruins from an ancient civilization, and thus designed the required gaps in the wall in such a way that it appeared to have collapsed and crumbled at those points.
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Jun 19, 2014 22:21
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Good god. If you think the megaprojects some people have made now are insane, then that's nothing compared to what people will be able to do when they can work outside the map square.
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Jun 20, 2014 00:22
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Jazzimus Prime posted:This is correct about roads. Not sure about floors, but I know you can't build walls at the map's edge.
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Jun 20, 2014 01:30
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what stops you from just doing overlapping embarks, the last column of the first embark is the first column of the next and so on. I think you can get it perfectly lined up like that. Otherwise in the latest version I'm pretty sure only paved roads can be built right up to the map edge. What you should do instead of a long wall or road is a really long rollercoaster thing out of minecart track and then ride it in adventure mode. Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 02:17 on Jun 20, 2014 |
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Jun 20, 2014 02:14
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Moridin920 posted:What you should do instead of a long wall or road is a really long rollercoaster thing out of minecart track and then ride it in adventure mode. Culminating in a huge jump over a section of 
Dungeon Ecology fucked around with this message at 05:54 on Jun 20, 2014 |
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Jun 20, 2014 02:20
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 The new version of the Dwarf Fortress devlog has been released Toady One posted:I appeared as the guest on the Red Pages Podcast (Episode 19).
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Jun 20, 2014 02:32
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sum posted:
 The last couple didn't get me, either!
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Jun 20, 2014 02:33
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It's been so long since the last version that I completely forgot that ^ was even a thing.
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Jun 20, 2014 02:37
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