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I thought mortal basically means can die of old age, in the dresden cosmos. The fae don't age because of the passage of time do they? I was under the impression that the only reason the mothers appear old is because of the mantles.
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Jun 18, 2014 15:37
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Calidus posted:I thought mortal basically means can die of old age, in the dresden cosmos. The fae don't age because of the passage of time do they? I was under the impression that the only reason the mothers appear old is because of the mantles. Mortal is a tradeoff. Free will, but you eventually die. Immortal creatures cannot go against their nature, duty, or role. Mab literally cannot lie. Uriel literally cannot act directly. They can choose how they go about their duties but they cannot choose not to act in their nature. Nemesis fucks that up somehow and essentially gives free will to those who should not have it.
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Jun 18, 2014 15:50
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Well, we don't quite know how "free" the free will it gives people is. For all we know people are just puppets or have their selves pushed deep down inside.
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Jun 18, 2014 15:56
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Reveilled posted:Do the beings other than the knights actually have mantles, as such? A mantle is something that in principle you could take off or be stripped of, but I'm not sure if becomg part of the Fae as Molly did is something you can really give up. In Cold Days Mantles were described as masks, which can be swapped on all hallows eve. Vadderung has two mantles, Odin and Kringle. Possibly more we don't know about. The original Winter Crone "retired" according to the Word of Jim, didn't she?
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Jun 18, 2014 15:57
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Apparently the first Summer one retired while Winter's is still the original. Also I love Marster's Sanya voice.
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Jun 18, 2014 19:50
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Calidus posted:I thought mortal basically means can die of old age, in the dresden cosmos. The fae don't age because of the passage of time do they? I was under the impression that the only reason the mothers appear old is because of the mantles. Things could've really got even more screwy when mantles got thrown around. Murphy the Winter/Summer Lady anyone?  Wait. Better still. Mouse the Winter/Summer... Erm. Lord. He's not 100% mortal either! 
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Jun 18, 2014 20:30
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There's "mortal" and there's "human." "Human" seems to mean "still has free will," i.e., capable of making choices and not purely an instrument or agent of Power. The more power you have, generally, the less choice you have -- vampires are in thrall to their vampire nature, the Fae are bound by Summer and Winter and their word and promises and so forth, Angels and Archangels have very very strict boundaries they can act within, etc. I don't know if "mortal" is synonymous with "human" in the Dresden lexicon but it seems to be pretty close in meaning.
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Jun 18, 2014 20:35
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:There's "mortal" and there's "human." "Human" seems to mean "still has free will," i.e., capable of making choices and not purely an instrument or agent of Power. Other way around. Changelings, for example, are mortals and have free will, but are not human until they make the choice to become one.
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Jun 18, 2014 22:03
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He right about the power though. Power comes with purpose, and going against it has bad consequences. Small scale it is swearing by your power and going against you takes away the power. Writ big, you literally can't do it. The exception being apparently certain very specific ways at very specific places at very specific times, or nemesis I think the comparison that Jim signed off on is like a train vs a car. You can take your car off the road but it is at greatly decreased performance and will probably wreck it in short order. A train cannot leave its tracks of its own volition and can only change at switching stations.
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Jun 18, 2014 22:12
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Yeroc2 posted:No, I don't think Sarissa was aware Maeve was infected by Nemesis. Its definitely Sarissa calling all the Sidhe, and especially Maeve, crazy. quote:“It isn’t too late,” Sarissa said. “You know how she lays her plans. She prepares for everything. But it doesn’t have to happen that way. The Leanansidhe was sick and Mother helped her. But her power alone isn’t enough to heal you. You have to want it, Maeve. You have to want to be healed.” Considering that when she tries to reason with Maeve she specifically mentions the Lenansidhe's 'sickness' (which we know to be nemesis) as the same as Maeve's (and the same as her's) it's pretty clear she's clued in to the overall situation. It would be hard for her not to have noticed it since her own mother was literally too filled with rage to talk for like 3 books. Your suggestion also doesn't add up since Sarissa included herself in the "dementia" condition and she's wasn't Sidhe.
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Jun 18, 2014 23:37
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Sarissa's a changeling.
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Jun 18, 2014 23:44
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Stroth posted:Other way around. Changelings, for example, are mortals and have free will, but are not human until they make the choice to become one. This is an interesting example because yeah, human but have X % fae parents nature and have similar compulsion to act fae, while still maintaining free will (until they choose).
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Jun 19, 2014 00:09
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So I finally got around to trying that Iron Druid series that gets brought up in here every once in a while, and it... wasn't that bad? The dialogue was definitely a bit off, almost stilted, in this kind of 'yeah I'm a cool badass but I'm downplaying it' manner but I'm hoping it's similar to Butcher's first couple of books and just a kind of rocky start.
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Jun 19, 2014 00:14
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WarLocke posted:So I finally got around to trying that Iron Druid series that gets brought up in here every once in a while, and it... wasn't that bad? The dialogue was definitely a bit off, almost stilted, in this kind of 'yeah I'm a cool badass but I'm downplaying it' manner but I'm hoping it's similar to Butcher's first couple of books and just a kind of rocky start. Just don't buy more in the series until you finish each one. Also I hope you have a overdeveloped tolerance for lolcat speech. e: I found the first wordcount post by Captain Capacitor with some more over the next couple pages in the last thread cause I wanted to see if he'd measured how many times 'snarl' appeared, which it has 551 times, more than either Charity or Red Court, and I can believe it (I also saw I hadn't once mentioned Iron Druid without complaining about the lolcat scene, jesus) e2: V hahaha exactly Illuyankas fucked around with this message at 01:07 on Jun 19, 2014 |
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Jun 19, 2014 00:47
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Illuyankas posted:Just don't buy more in the series until you finish each one. Also I hope you have a overdeveloped tolerance for lolcat speech. There's enough in Hearne's work to criticize without blowing something that occupied two whole lines in one book out of proportion.
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Jun 19, 2014 01:00
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You're right, of course - the obnoxiousness of Atticus aside, which book if any did Oberon's gimmick lose its lustre for you guys, anyway?
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Jun 19, 2014 01:09
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Ornamented Death posted:There's enough in Hearne's work to criticize without blowing something that occupied two whole lines in one book out of proportion. I think it's because those two lines were the jarring culmination of Atticus's terribleness - it was always there, but then something just toostupid happens that is the straw that breaks the camel's back and makes you realize that how terrible Atticus is written. I know he's trying to 'fit in' but is in reality a several thousand year old druid, he's not going to think like a mid-20s Redditor.
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Jun 19, 2014 05:10
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WarLocke posted:but I'm hoping it's similar to Butcher's first couple of books and just a kind of rocky start. They never get better. There's promise, but the author ignores it in favor of the stupid crap.
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Jun 19, 2014 05:18
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So, on the topic of mantles... Any theories on what Jesus may have been? Scion? Mantle? Grace?
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Jun 19, 2014 05:37
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ConfusedUs posted:They never get better.
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Jun 19, 2014 09:45
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ZorajitZorajit posted:So, on the topic of mantles... Any theories on what Jesus may have been? Scion? Mantle? Grace?
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Jun 19, 2014 13:09
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ZorajitZorajit posted:So, on the topic of mantles... Any theories on what Jesus may have been? Scion? Mantle? Grace? Mac. And he's out. The carpenter being the other side of the wood would be cool.
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Jun 19, 2014 13:37
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I just realized that Skin Game yells us what Demonreach meant in Cold Days when he saw Bob and went "Another one..." Harry's brain baby is the other one.
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Jun 19, 2014 13:37
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I've been listening to the skin game audiobook and one statement from santa stuck out to me: "There are four oeratives who could play one role Nicodemus needs filled in his venture." "Two of them are currently under contract elsewhere and the third is presently detained/" Could this be the man harry communicates with that is locked up in demonreach? Another naagloshi scion like Gray?
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Jun 19, 2014 14:16
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I confess I skipped a page or two of this thread but I thought the Gate of Blood was explainable! Why didn't he use a mook? Because the Gate demanded more than just a death - it demanded your BLOOD. Aka a family member, and it could sense how the shade died. That was why it had to be Deirdre. Alternatively, she's pretty strong and perhaps it needed a shade of a certain quality to be able to immediately manifest, cross reference that with one Nicodemus trusts and wouldn't make Harry suspicious of.
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Jun 19, 2014 16:26
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Oroborus posted:I've been listening to the skin game audiobook and one statement from santa stuck out to me: My working theory is that the Goodman Gray was indeed the pissed off inmate Dresden spoke with with doing PARKOUR! in the intro. It's been mentioned by word of Jim that Harry may let them out for 'work release' E: covering Skin Game semi-spoilers ZorajitZorajit fucked around with this message at 17:24 on Jun 19, 2014 |
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Jun 19, 2014 16:30
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Lord Twisted posted:I confess I skipped a page or two of this thread but I thought the Gate of Blood was explainable! I think it probably needed a willing shade that would actually open the gate after death.
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Jun 19, 2014 16:31
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ZorajitZorajit posted:[quote]My working theory is that the Goodman Gray was indeed the pissed off inmate Dresden spoke with with doing PARKOUR! in the intro. It's been mentioned by word of Jim that Harry may let them out for 'work release'[/spoiler] That doesn't really fly since he was free for what's implied to be a long time before Kringle told Harry about him, certainly long enough to build up a sizable reputation doing jobs.
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Jun 19, 2014 16:34
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limited posted:Ditto. I don't mind them too much, expecting how they tend to go. But it's definitely wince-worthy in plenty of places. I'd recommend the Alex Verus books by Benedict Jacka. They can get a bit angsty and drawn out in places, but they're not bad. Having blown through the first 3 in the last week I have to agree. The Verus books are quite a bit of fun.
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Jun 19, 2014 16:51
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ZorajitZorajit posted:It's been mentioned by word of Jim that Harry may let <Demonreach's prisoners> out for 'work release' If it happens that will be a big, friggin deal and I reckon apocalyptic trilogy stuff. Skin Game: Lord Twisted posted:Why didn't he use a mook? Because the Gate demanded more than just a death - it demanded your BLOOD. Aka a family member, and it could sense how the shade died. That was why it had to be Deirdre. It's why Nicodemus had to engineer a hostage situation at that gate to distract Michael, so that he wouldn't say or do something that would make Deirdre's devotion to her father falter. Raygereio fucked around with this message at 17:44 on Jun 19, 2014 |
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Jun 19, 2014 17:30
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I figure ultimately he will do the "consume your magical power" thing of the dark hallow to the prisoners in demo reach. He's far away so no one else will die and he destroys a bunch if evil things to boost himself/replenish the areas energy
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Jun 19, 2014 18:40
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Fried Chicken posted:I figure ultimately he will do the "consume your magical power" thing of the dark hallow to the prisoners in demo reach. He's far away so no one else will die and he destroys a bunch if evil things to boost himself/replenish the areas energy That might be how he goes out at the very, very end of the series.
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Jun 19, 2014 18:55
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ConfusedUs posted:Mortal is a tradeoff. Free will, but you eventually die. I'm not so sure Uriel is as restricted as that otherwise why would he need to worry about his grace falling? Lucifer made the choice I think the archangels have the choice but, the consequence is something they've experienced in their life times and have no desire to undergo themselves. Also with the gates Nick mentions that Dierdre loving him is a problem so maybe the gate of blood demands you must sacrifice someone that loved you for it to open. It makes the cost of getting into the vault that much greater and explains why a random mook couldn't be used.
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Jun 19, 2014 19:54
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Azuth0667 posted:I'm not so sure Uriel is as restricted as that otherwise why would he need to worry about his grace falling? Lucifer made the choice I think the archangels have the choice but, the consequence is something they've experienced in their life times and have no desire to undergo themselves. Also with the gates Nick mentions that Dierdre loving him is a problem so maybe the gate of blood demands you must sacrifice someone that loved you for it to open. It makes the cost of getting into the vault that much greater and explains why a random mook couldn't be used. Uriel took a massive risk. We've seen several times how easy it is to unmake one of the swords, something tells me restoring Uriel's Grace would be all but impossible and the aftermath could be downright Apocalyptic.
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Jun 19, 2014 21:53
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Taratang posted:Frankly Dresden is very lucky to have regained the Winter mantle after breaking Winter Law. I'm not sure Dresden ever actually did break Winter Law. He just declared an intention to break Winter Law, and he is still mortal (that being the whole point of the Knights) so still does technically have choice.
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Jun 19, 2014 22:05
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ConfusedUs posted:They never get better. I think something in my brain is broken, because I am on the second book and I can see how the author tries way too hard to fit in all the pop culture stuff, but I still chuckled at Atticus prepping a vampire on how to be cool while they're storming a witches coven via tossing the head of a basalt elemental through the floor/ceiling. Or his response to getting his newly-regenerated ear shot off again. Spoiled that in case anyone else is so hard-up for urban fantasy they might read this drek.
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Jun 20, 2014 01:44
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WarLocke posted:I think something in my brain is broken, because I am on the second book and I can see how the author tries way too hard to fit in all the pop culture stuff, but I still chuckled at Atticus prepping a vampire on how to be cool while they're storming a witches coven via tossing the head of a basalt elemental through the floor/ceiling. Or his response to getting his newly-regenerated ear shot off again. Spoiled that in case anyone else is so hard-up for urban fantasy they might read this drek. The vampire scene was hilarious. Thing is Atticus' schtick is funny the first time. And the second. Maybe even the third. Hell I still chuckled at Oberon in the last book a couple times. They never get better. Like a car that runs out of gas, it eventually stops. Eventually he starts scraping the bottom of the barrel, and it just falls flat.
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Jun 20, 2014 04:20
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The Iron Druid series starts out pretty strong, but then craters in the fourth and fifth books. I mean, really craters; they are just bad books. The sixth book is an upturn in quality, and the seventh book seems to be continuing that trend, though I'm not very far in it so Hearne could still gently caress it up. The issue, though, is that Hearne dug himself into such a deep hole, quality-wise, that he's probably going to spend the remainder of the series getting back to the quality of the first two books, and that's assuming he doesn't screw up along the way. The sad thing is that Hearne is capable of writing good stories with these characters, as demonstrated by the two novellas. I think he just gets lost with the relative freedom of space in novels; he works better when there's no room for him to bother with irritating pop culture references.
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Jun 20, 2014 04:32
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Ornamented Death posted:The Iron Druid series starts out pretty strong, but then craters in the fourth and fifth books. I mean, really craters; they are just bad books. The sixth book is an upturn in quality, and the seventh book seems to be continuing that trend, though I'm not very far in it so Hearne could still gently caress it up. The issue, though, is that Hearne dug himself into such a deep hole, quality-wise, that he's probably going to spend the remainder of the series getting back to the quality of the first two books, and that's assuming he doesn't screw up along the way. Goddamnit am I going to have to buy the most recent Iron Druid book? I felt #6 was getting better after the awfulness that was #4 and #5, but not good enough to buy another.
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Jun 20, 2014 04:40
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ConfusedUs posted:Goddamnit am I going to have to buy the most recent Iron Druid book? I felt #6 was getting better after the awfulness that was #4 and #5, but not good enough to buy another. Well like I said, I'm not very far in, but nothing in the first 50 pages has made me cringe. He's even toned down Granuaile's voice, which I thought was purple to the point of being painful to read in the last book.
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Jun 20, 2014 04:49
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