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VitalSigns posted:Why can we not even tell them that? How do we convince them to support equality if they think they bootstrapped themselves right from the womb into a four-year university? I just don't see where the privilege-checking gets you. It has its uses in graduate-level sociology and cultural anthropology, but the average American is more exposed to the ESPN comment sections than any of that. This is also why I think -- and judging from my anecdotal moments encountering people who constantly check their privilege and the people around them -- that it's largely a form of social competition among incestuous uber-left peer groups. natetimm posted:Human beings love to comisserate and attempt to identify with the plight of others, even if it's done in an insensitive manner. If someone is saying they totally understand your pain or struggle because of their stupid white people problems yes it's annoying, but the bigger, more important issue is that they are trying to internalize and personalize your struggle to identify with it and support it. They don't have to be a lock-step idealist in your army for that to happen. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 04:53 on Jun 20, 2014 |
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Jun 20, 2014 04:34
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on the left posted:Sane people everywhere agree that racism exists and is a bad thing. It's easy to get consensus on this because it costs you nothing to admit, and is pretty obvious. Tumbr is to blame, and they should shut up before they censor good honest White
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Jun 20, 2014 04:36
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natetimm posted:Yes those people are assholes, but they aren't representative of an entire race or even a majority of it. Of course they are not. quote:You would have to be a loving insane person to think that racism doesn't exist in the US, and that isn't some kind of quality globally applicable to all white people. Of course it does not; so for the billionth time, stop getting so upset because somebody included "white" in their description of an rear end in a top hat.
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Jun 20, 2014 04:37
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natetimm posted:Yes those people are assholes, but they aren't representative of an entire race or even a majority of it. You would have to be a loving insane person to think that racism doesn't exist in the US, and that isn't some kind of quality globally applicable to all white people. Why are most Tumblr types or SJW being written off as self-aggrandizing and disingenuous? I thought your entire point was that more folks were speaking in good faith than currently assumed? How does one discern those disagreeing in earnest and those trying to monopolize or interrupt dialogue about potentially upending a status quo that currently benefits them, even if only slightly?
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Jun 20, 2014 04:38
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Popular Thug Drink posted:The only people who literally actually unironically believe this have huge problems with latent racism irl, for real. IF your stance continues to be that people who disagree with being told to shut up because they are white are latent racists, I'm just going to assume you are also a latent racist. because apparently that's the barrier for entry in this debate. Some rear end in a top hat getting upset you disagree with him so he calls you a racist.
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Jun 20, 2014 04:40
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SedanChair posted:Of course it does not; so for the billionth time, stop getting so upset because somebody included "white" in their description of an rear end in a top hat. I never posted anything like that, but feel free to misrepresent my arguments if it makes it easier to use canned responses and meaningless catchphrases.
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Jun 20, 2014 04:41
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on the left posted:I never posted anything like that, but feel free to misrepresent my arguments if it makes it easier to use canned responses and meaningless catchphrases. Was I speaking to you? The sensitivity that accompanies "whiteness" knows no bounds.
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Jun 20, 2014 04:43
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soundnthefury posted:Why are most Tumblr types or SJW being written off as self-aggrandizing and disingenuous? I thought your entire point was that more folks were speaking in good faith than currently assumed? How does one discern those disagreeing in earnest and those trying to monopolize or interrupt dialogue about potentially upending a status quo that currently benefits them, even if only slightly? Because the culture that has grown up around these online movements is a toxic cabal of back-patters and self-aggrandizers for whom the actual pursuit of justice or meaningful change takes a backseat to making themselves feel superior over others. There's nothing of merit being produced by them, it's a giant echo chamber of petty bullies blogging and reblogging each others' narcissistic bullshit.
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Jun 20, 2014 04:44
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SedanChair posted:Was I speaking to you? The sensitivity that accompanies "whiteness" knows no bounds. Sorry, I thought you were quoting me because the post was similar.
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Jun 20, 2014 04:44
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natetimm posted:Because the culture that has grown up around these online movements is a toxic cabal of back-patters and self-aggrandizers for whom the actual pursuit of justice or meaningful change takes a backseat to making themselves feel superior over others. There's nothing of merit being produced by them, it's a giant echo chamber of petty bullies blogging and reblogging each others' narcissistic bullshit.
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Jun 20, 2014 04:50
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natetimm posted:IF your stance continues to be that people who disagree with being told to shut up because they are white are latent racists, I'm just going to assume you are also a latent racist. because apparently that's the barrier for entry in this debate. Some rear end in a top hat getting upset you disagree with him so he calls you a racist. You're the one getting so upset with people that you accuse them of censorship, if you're wigging out about me pointing that out I'm not really responsible for SJW or racist or any other goofy rear end pejorative you dislodge to get rid of your own negative feelings. I'm not disagreeing with people in general, I'm disagreeing with you and your own possible drunkposts because it's clear you have some kind of complex about minorities telling you to pipe down. soundnthefury posted:Why are most Tumblr types or SJW being written off as self-aggrandizing and disingenuous? I thought your entire point was that more folks were speaking in good faith than currently assumed? How does one discern those disagreeing in earnest and those trying to monopolize or interrupt dialogue about potentially upending a status quo that currently benefits them, even if only slightly? natetimm evidently has negative emotions in the past about minorities and leftists criticizing his opinions and enacts retributive justice by raging against internet strawmen, is my guess. boner confessor fucked around with this message at 04:56 on Jun 20, 2014 |
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Jun 20, 2014 04:53
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Omi-Polari posted:If people are going to learn how to deal with those around them, they're going to learn by doing it in messy and complicated ways, and they don't need hectoring schoolmarms to teach them how. That kind of thing is viscerally repulsive to most people. Well if minorities are going to agitate for their rights, they're going to do it in messy, complicated ways, and they don't need hectoring schoolmarms policing their tone. Oh wait no, I forgot, the onus is always on minorities to be sensitive and meekly ask for their rights without ever implying that it might be wrong for a white person to withold them. We mustn't put any onus on the people enabling oppression to recognize what is happening and stop contributing to it. Omi-Polari posted:For example, I would find it very dubious any suggestion the gay rights movement succeeded by reasoning people out of their homophobia and having them check their heterosexual privilege. It succeeded despite that by creating an environment for people to reason themselves out of it. Ah yes, I remember how the Gay Rights movement began when LGBT people created a supportive environment for homophobes to reason themselves out of their bigotry, just as straight white people have always done when minorities kept a respectful silence and didn't confront anyone about the injustice of the status quo.  Whoa dude, don't be so pugnacious, you're setting back the movement! Create that supportive environment to win those cops over!
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Jun 20, 2014 04:54
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VitalSigns posted:Well if minorities are going to agitate for their rights, they're going to do it in messy, complicated ways, and they don't need hectoring schoolmarms policing their tone. If you think for a minute that anything that has ever occurreed on Tumblr has come close to being as politically relevant as the actual political action portrayed in that pic you're very mistaken. If anything, I would have MORE respect for the Tumblr crowd if they engaged the political process and actually agitated for change instead of constantly fellating each other. Your'e mistaking my disdain for their particular brand of vile slacktivism for disdain of activism as a whole. new phone who dis fucked around with this message at 05:19 on Jun 20, 2014 |
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Jun 20, 2014 05:02
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VitalSigns posted:Well if minorities are going to agitate for their rights, they're going to do it in messy, complicated ways, and they don't need hectoring schoolmarms policing their tone. VitalSigns posted:Ah yes, I remember how the Gay Rights movement began when LGBT people created a supportive environment for homophobes to reason themselves out of their bigotry, just as straight white people have always done when minorities kept a respectful silence and didn't confront anyone about the injustice of the status quo. You're making a fundamental mistake that the checking your privilege thing is against homophobes, committed racists, and so on. That's just not how it works. The main people who get attacked over their privilege are other people on the progressive left. Nobody bothers to call out Bill O'Reilly on his privilege. It's other activists in a self-destructive firing squad, mainly.
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Jun 20, 2014 05:03
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natetimm posted:If you think for a minute that anything that has ever occurreed on Tumblr has come close to being as politically relevant as the actual political action portrayed in that pic you're very mistaken. If anything, I would have MORE respect for the Tumblr crowd if they engaged the political process and actually agitated for change instead of constantly fellating each other. Your mistaking my disdain for their particular brand of vile slacktivism for disdain of activism as a whole. I was responding to someone who was talking about the actual, real LGBT rights movement, (something that definitely wasn't slactivism), and characterizing its success as coming from giving straight people space to reason themselves out of homophobia. Of course, straight people had decades and decades and centuries of space to do this yet somehow mysteriously it only happened once gay people started fighting back. If all of your posts are just you raging out about tumblr slactivism, and you're absolutely fine with minorities taking action in real life even if it does hurt white feelings, then what are you even doing here? I don't even know what you're arguing at this point: just that posting on tumblr is not effective activism? Uh, okay champ, agreed then. Edit: Omi-Polari posted:You're making a fundamental mistake that the checking your privilege thing is against homophobes, committed racists, and so on. That's just not how it works. The main people who get attacked over their privilege are other people on the progressive left. Nobody bothers to call out Bill O'Reilly on his privilege. It's other activists in a self-destructive firing squad, mainly. The reason no one tells committed racists to check their privilege is because they are committed racists who are openly discriminating against minorities. It's the guy who says "How is voter ID racist? Everyone has an ID, you need one to drive, and if you don't have one you just run down to the DMV on your lunch and pay a few bucks" that needs to understand that not everyone has circumstances that make it so easy. Does the phrase "check your privilege" specifically just tweak you out? Like, I don't get what you're arguing here. Can we tell people that their experience isn't representative and that they're wrong for assuming it is? Say a straight man tells me, "You gay people want special rights, not equal rights. You have the same rights as me, you have the right to marry a woman too, and neither of us can marry a man", can I tell him that we don't have the same experience because he's not barred from marrying the person he loves but I am, or what? VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 05:28 on Jun 20, 2014 |
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Jun 20, 2014 05:08
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soundnthefury posted:Why are most Tumblr types or SJW being written off as self-aggrandizing and disingenuous? Are you serious here man?
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Jun 20, 2014 05:10
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Hey remember that time when those five innocent white guys were convicted of raping and murdering someone they didn't know on racially motivated charges and woefully insufficient evidence? And then it took decades for them to receive proper compensation because the people who had them arrested tied the whole thing up in court for years. Oh wait. Jesus gently caress Michael Bloomberg. Ogmius815 fucked around with this message at 05:16 on Jun 20, 2014 |
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Jun 20, 2014 05:14
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VitalSigns posted:I was responding to someone who was talking about the actual, real LGBT rights movement, (something that definitely wasn't slactivism), and characterizing its success as coming from giving straight people space to reason themselves out of homophobia. Of course, straight people had decades and decades and centuries of space to do this yet somehow mysteriously it only happened once gay people started fighting back.
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Jun 20, 2014 05:30
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Omi-Polari posted:You're totally going off the rails. The gay movement didn't succeed by creating a supporting environment for homophobes. It didn't care what homophobes thought. But it didn't try to get homophobes to check their hetero privilege. Nobody cared if the cops checked their cop privilege. Did they not? The whole point of freaking out during yet another raid on Stonewall was to say "gently caress this, check your privilege to roust me, cop."
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Jun 20, 2014 05:33
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So what you're saying is, rather than arguing endlessly with every homophobe piping up about the children, gay people ignored the bigots with nothing redeeming to say and took direct action anyway. That sounds kinda anti-straight and anti-Christian to not let everyone contribute to the conversation and have an inclusive dialogue, but if you think it's okay to do, then I'm on board 
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Jun 20, 2014 05:36
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natetimm posted:Yes those people are assholes, but they aren't representative of an entire race or even a majority of it. "Not all White People." Its a bit like the poo poo that happened with #YesAllWomen. No, not all white people are racist, but all black people have, sometime in their life, been the subject of racism and prejudice that has stopped them from doing something they wanted to do, or impacted their life in some way. Congrats, you're making the same arguments as MRAs whenever anything about misogyny is said. natetimm posted:Except that's not "it". It's being told to shut the gently caress up and don't ask questions because you're white. When you ask questions, and don't immediately try and make it all about you, as in "Isn't that racist against me, a white person? Well that's just terrible and just as bad as the racism shown to you your entire life." Then yeah, I can see your point. Unfortunately your questions and everything else seems to be more "B-b-b-but my straight white male privilege doesn't exist, after all bad things happen to me too." and a denial of the fact that yes, You have it much better than black people, and that you and your family has in fact, benefited from racism in some way or another. I'm not saying you have to pay for the sins of your forefathers, just at least stop and loving think: "Is this question or statement I'm making to someone about how they've been oppressed, going to be trying to put myself in the center of attention and marginalizing their experiences?"
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Jun 20, 2014 05:52
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ForeverSmug posted:Are you serious here man? I was just curious what makes these people especially bad compared to fringe sorts found everywhere else. The constant bemoaning of Tumblr sorts and the accusations of white guilt seem like people combining hipster accusations of trying to be cooler than everyone with essentially being a race traitor. The people claiming that minorities shouldn't be excluding people based on gender, race, or sexual preference should be against guilt by association in all forms, right? How do you know what these people are engaging in politically away from the Internet and why are their detractors extended the benefit of doubt in their potential tone arguments and concern-trolling? (I get that there is a lot of navel-gazing going on, but it's getting to be like the bemoaning re:LF in regards to leftist posters here.)
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Jun 20, 2014 05:53
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soundnthefury posted:I was just curious what makes these people especially bad compared to fringe sorts found everywhere else. The constant bemoaning of Tumblr sorts and the accusations of white guilt seem like people combining hipster accusations of trying to be cooler than everyone with essentially being a race traitor. The people claiming that minorities shouldn't be excluding people based on gender, race, or sexual preference should be against guilt by association in all forms, right? How do you know what these people are engaging in politically away from the Internet and why are their detractors extended the benefit of doubt in their potential tone arguments and concern-trolling? 9/10 times, tumblr is not as bad as SA claims. It's just that that 10th time that we get people who claim they're trans-ethnic other/otaku/myth-kin that are also spirits and reincarnations of tragic heros/heroines and if you act like that's not a 'big deal' because seriously, it isn't. They'll tell you to 'check your normal privilege' or some BS and all their friends who are just like them agree and say how terrible a person you are and then get into a 
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Jun 20, 2014 05:57
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E-Tank posted:"Not all White People." It's funny you mention center of attention because I'm pretty sure that's the core of the issue, not race politics or social justice.
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Jun 20, 2014 05:57
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natetimm posted:It's funny you mention center of attention because I'm pretty sure that's the core of the issue, not race politics or social justice. Well at least you're able to admit that you're just after attention, that's a start. E-Tank fucked around with this message at 06:08 on Jun 20, 2014 |
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Jun 20, 2014 05:58
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natetimm posted:It's funny you mention center of attention because I'm pretty sure that's the core of the issue, not race politics or social justice. I should just buy you a stamp with "You're only looking for attention" on it so you don't even need precise finger movements to fall back on your favorite lazy-rear end rejoinder. Because if you accuse the other person of being an attention seeker, you don't need logic or reason on your side! He doesn't "really" care about racism so now it's okay to be racist! Hey wait a minute, if people posting on the internet to get attention without solving any real problems makes you so mad, why do you have so many posts in this thread? This thread isn't going to change the world or get rid of tumblr, so obviously you don't care about real solutions and your presence here is just an opportunity for self-aggrandizing preening by defending the white man and taking tumblr posters down a peg or two (were they even here to read your sick burns)
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Jun 20, 2014 06:02
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VitalSigns posted:I should just buy you a stamp with "You're only looking for attention" on it so you don't even need precise finger movements to fall back on your favorite lazy-rear end rejoinder. Because if you accuse the other person of being an attention seeker, you don't need logic or reason on your side! He doesn't "really" care about racism so now it's okay to be racist! I'm thinking of making a bingo card but it's kind of cliche.
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Jun 20, 2014 06:04
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It always makes me laugh when people emulate the language and tactics of the oppressed without understanding the rationale behind them. It's like a slug trying to salt a human.
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Jun 20, 2014 06:21
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natetimm posted:I'm thinking of making a bingo card but it's kind of cliche. No but seriously, what is your deal with tumblr? How is this such an issue in your life that you feel you have to pull the thread focus over to it? I've met a ton of people in real life who fight against minority rights with some crap about how gay people existing oppresses Christians or whatever; but I've never run into a single otherkin-trans-dragonbaby. Do you seek out crazy blogs with a dozen readers and comment how trans-toasterism isn't a real thing so you can get all offended when they call you a cis-het bigot? Where do you find this stuff, and why do you care? "Oh my heavens I commented on another starfairykin blog and the author called me a fascist, hold me Annabelle I'm going into conniptions!" I mean, if that's your hobby cool, but I don't see what relevance it has to discussions about real things like racism.
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Jun 20, 2014 06:32
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I'm pretty sure that black guy hung himself from a tree for attention.
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Jun 20, 2014 06:42
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VitalSigns posted:No but seriously, what is your deal with tumblr? How is this such an issue in your life that you feel you have to pull the thread over to it? I've met a ton of people in real life who fight against minority rights with some crap about how gay people existing oppresses Christians or whatever; but I've never run into a single otherkin-trans-dragonbaby or whatever. Do you seek out crazy blogs with a dozen readers and comment how trans-toasterism isn't a real thing so you can get all offended when they call you a cis-het bigot? Well first, it's not the trans-species or whatever tumblr blogs I'm referencing when I talk about Tumblr activism in the context of this thread. It's the ugly, slacktivist, echo-chamber bullshit ones that create this giant feedback loop of privilege checking alongside an endless contest of who is the most oppressed and how. It was once a running joke but more and more I see the bullshit mentality leaking into other facets of life and gaining traction and legitimacy. In all honesty I can understand why a black person would want to tell a white idiot like SedanChair describes to shut up, but I don't think trying to shame or force them into doing it, especially somewhere as volatile and anonymous as the internet, is a reasonable expectation. Do I think a feminist or black activist giving a live talk in person on issues that impact them has the right to ask those people to shut the gently caress up while they do so? Absolutely. Do I think that right extends to every idiot on the internet whose opinion happens to coincide with those activists? No. If you're going to bring your opinion into the maelstrom of terrible opinions that is the internet and shout them at people, you don't get to hide behind that barrier of protection anymore. Someone's capability of marginalizing you is already greatly reduced by the relative amount of anonymity and impersonal nature of the net itself, and that's the chance you take when you bring it to such a huge open forum.
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Jun 20, 2014 06:45
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natetimm posted:Well first, it's not the trans-species or whatever tumblr blogs I'm referencing when I talk about Tumblr activism in the context of this thread. It's the ugly, slacktivist, echo-chamber bullshit ones that create this giant feedback loop of privilege checking alongside an endless contest of who is the most oppressed and how. It was once a running joke but more and more I see the bullshit mentality leaking into other facets of life and gaining traction and legitimacy. In all honesty I can understand why a black person would want to tell a white idiot like SedanChair describes to shut up, but I don't think trying to shame or force them into doing it, especially somewhere as volatile and anonymous as the internet, is a reasonable expectation. Do I think a feminist or black activist giving a live talk in person on issues that impact them has the right to ask those people to shut the gently caress up while they do so? Absolutely. Do I think that right extends to every idiot on the internet whose opinion happens to coincide with those activists? No. If you're going to bring your opinion into the maelstrom of terrible opinions that is the internet and shout them at people, you don't get to hide behind that barrier of protection anymore. Someone's capability of marginalizing you is already greatly reduced by the relative amount of anonymity and impersonal nature of the net itself, and that's the chance you take when you bring it to such a huge open forum. Sorry about tumbler.
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Jun 20, 2014 06:49
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Okay I'm sorry, is tumblr blogging impotent slacktivism that has no effect on anything except reinforcing people's opinions of themselves in their isolated social group? Or is it a font of ideas that are breaking out into the real world and gaining traction and legitimacy? You slide back and forth between mocking it as irrelevant and then pronouncing it a danger poisoning discourse in our society whenever anyone asks you why you care so much about irrelevancies. I cannot decipher what exactly you are mad about anymore, and I'm starting to wonder if you even know.
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Jun 20, 2014 06:50
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natetimm posted:Well first, it's not the trans-species or whatever tumblr blogs I'm referencing when I talk about Tumblr activism in the context of this thread. It's the ugly, slacktivist, echo-chamber bullshit ones that create this giant feedback loop of privilege checking alongside an endless contest of who is the most oppressed and how. It was once a running joke but more and more I see the bullshit mentality leaking into other facets of life and gaining traction and legitimacy. In all honesty I can understand why a black person would want to tell a white idiot like SedanChair describes to shut up, but I don't think trying to shame or force them into doing it, especially somewhere as volatile and anonymous as the internet, is a reasonable expectation. Do I think a feminist or black activist giving a live talk in person on issues that impact them has the right to ask those people to shut the gently caress up while they do so? Absolutely. Do I think that right extends to every idiot on the internet whose opinion happens to coincide with those activists? No. If you're going to bring your opinion into the maelstrom of terrible opinions that is the internet and shout them at people, you don't get to hide behind that barrier of protection anymore. Someone's capability of marginalizing you is already greatly reduced by the relative amount of anonymity and impersonal nature of the net itself, and that's the chance you take when you bring it to such a huge open forum. In general, no one is commanding that you shut up. No one has that power over you. They're just asking that if you're a clueless white guy, that you should be quiet and listen (until you are knowledgeable and can contribute to the conversation) when minorities are talking about issues surrounding race. Just like men should be quiet and listen (until you are knowledgeable and can contribute to the conversation) when women are talking about women's issues. Just like non-surgeons should be quiet and listen (until you are knowledgeable and can contribute to the conversation) when doctors are talking about open-heart surgery. So on and so forth. I don't think it's an echo-chamber, or marginalizing, to ask people who are ignorant on a topic to listen, learn, and then eventually speak. That's how...you stop being ignorant.
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Jun 20, 2014 06:50
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What a totally weird meltdown. Generally people have something tangible to freak out about but theoretical opinions in the ether... drat.Zelder posted:That's how...you stop being ignorant. natetimm has the god-given right for nobody to challenge his ability to be ignorant. That seems to be the core of it.
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Jun 20, 2014 06:50
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Who gives a poo poo about what some idiot slacktivists on tumblr say? People on tumblr being utterly useless has no relevance to the very real problems facing minorities in America. Shut the everloving gently caress up you loving cracker rear end honky. edit: Zelder is wrong I'm telling you right now to shut the gently caress up you shitheel. The paleface is a demon.
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Jun 20, 2014 06:51
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vintagepurple posted:Who gives a poo poo about what some idiot slacktivists on tumblr say? Oh no disagreement here. That's why I've literally dedicated my whole life to stealing away white women, and making sure my white friends suffer the onerous weight of WHITE GUILT (which is just as bad as the poo poo that black people have to go through, totally). edit: KILL WHITEY. AVeryLargeRadish, when you get to this, I want you to know, that I unironically mean this and that there is no irony in my statement. Take me at face value! Zelder fucked around with this message at 07:28 on Jun 20, 2014 |
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Jun 20, 2014 06:59
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As a Slav, I'd like for my race to unbecome white, associating with white people has brought nothing but trouble we were much better off as Eurasians. Is it too late?
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Jun 20, 2014 07:33
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vintagepurple posted:Who gives a poo poo about what some idiot slacktivists on tumblr say? 75% chance of being written by a white person.
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Jun 20, 2014 07:33
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natetimm posted:75% chance of being written by a white person. Don't dismiss what he said because he might be white, that's racist. Against white people. The most vicious kind of racism.
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Jun 20, 2014 07:36
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