|
The problem here is that we don't get Holden's thoughts on it, because that would require him to tell us which closet he buried the presents in, like a less funny and more literal Bad Santa
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 06:20
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 19:29 |
|
|
Stephenls posted:Leaked playtest Craft is first draft with no playtesting. So it's the perfect time to make criticisms about it that can lead to improvements!
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 06:22
|
|
|
Plague of Hats posted:Certainly John and Holden don't think that, and neither does Lea. But they are still the ones managing and putting together the whole thing, while I think Lea is avoiding reading drafts that aren't ready for final editing. Even just the "you can only use Supplementals with other Charms of the same Ability" rule still being in there is all kinds of annoying in a "why even have that?" kind of way. It feels like there was no real reflection on any of the miscellaneous rules baggage beyond the specific set of subsystems the devs decided to revise, starting with the absolute determination to use the same 25 Abilities as 2e, instead of thinking through the implications of stuff like trying to make Dodge worth actually taking as your primary defensive Ability compared to Resistance (which gives you combat defense plus combat offense plus all that other stuff). Well, actually, they did think about the Abilities... and decide to make them even more redundant by having Brawl and Martial Arts have separate dot ratings. Roadie fucked around with this message at 06:29 on Jun 20, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 06:23
|
|
|
I actually really like the Dodge charms we got, although you're right that they're pretty narrow in scope compared to those of the other defense abilities. In general, it's really neat how almost every combat cascade has its own built-in gimmick or minigame, so with Dodge you're constantly spending, regenerating, and stealing initiative and taking the risk of dodging without Charms in order to get to use your big Charms later. Fighting a Solar evasion specialist is probably the most infuriating thing in the world and I love it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 06:25
|
|
|
Ferrinus posted:I actually really like the Dodge charms we got, although you're right that they're pretty narrow in scope compared to those of the other defense abilities. In general, it's really neat how almost every combat cascade has its own built-in gimmick or minigame, so with Dodge you're constantly spending, regenerating, and stealing initiative and taking the risk of dodging without Charms in order to get to use your big Charms later. Fighting a Solar evasion specialist is probably the most infuriating thing in the world and I love it. And none of that even intrinsically requires a Dodge Ability to exist! 
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 06:26
|
|
|
Roadie posted:No, no, not surfboards, flying kiteboards like that bear kid on TaleSpin. No, not flying Kiteboards. Flying Daiklaves that have the shape of a surfboard and can be used in combat while ridden
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 06:27
|
|
|
Plague of Hats posted:And none of that even intrinsically requires a Dodge Ability to exist! Cheers! Seriously, though. Seriously. Exalted needs more words like crash, crash, fuse, break, strike, burst, gauge, slam, buster. It needs fewer words like strength, charisma, dodge, and ride.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 06:30
|
|
|
Ferrinus posted:charisma But where would the game be if you couldn't have separate yet 90% interchangeable ratings in Convince People Real Good By Being Like Aladdin and Convince People Real Good By Being Like Jafar?
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 06:34
|
|
|
Attorney at Funk posted:"The developers are too smart and busy to explain any of their visibly stupid decisions" pablum has been you guys' PR policy for over a year now. You've playtested it quite a lot. The best part of the Christmas Day strategy is their rigid avoidance of serious criticism means it'll be far too late to fix many issues once they do start accepting criticism. Everybody loses! 
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 06:35
|
|
|
Plague of Hats posted:And none of that even intrinsically requires a Dodge Ability to exist! I've always wondered why Dodge charms let you move out of the way of things really fast, and athletics charms make you move really fast.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 06:35
|
|
|
Ferrinus posted:I actually really like the Dodge charms we got, although you're right that they're pretty narrow in scope compared to those of the other defense abilities. In general, it's really neat how almost every combat cascade has its own built-in gimmick or minigame, so with Dodge you're constantly spending, regenerating, and stealing initiative and taking the risk of dodging without Charms in order to get to use your big Charms later. Fighting a Solar evasion specialist is probably the most infuriating thing in the world and I love it. At this point I'd like to say something like "Then you should be reassured that the first playtest packet Dodge Charms looked way different, and a lot more like Craft does now," but I can't because I haven't bothered to read the leaked Craft material (it's just gonna change before I have to edit it) and also i don't really remember what the first playtest packet Dodge stuff looked like. So. Shrug!
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 06:36
|
|
|
Stephenls posted:At this point I'd like to say something like "Then you should be reassured that the first playtest packet Dodge Charms looked way different, and a lot more like Craft does now," but I can't because I haven't bothered to read the leaked Craft material (it's just gonna change before I have to edit it) and also i don't really remember what the first playtest packet Dodge stuff looked like. So. Shrug! This is missing the greater point of "why is there even Dodge?", though.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 06:37
|
|
|
Stephenls posted:At this point I'd like to say something like "Then you should be reassured that the first playtest packet Dodge Charms looked way different, and a lot more like Craft does now," but I can't because I haven't bothered to read the leaked Craft material (it's just gonna change before I have to edit it) and also i don't really remember what the first playtest packet Dodge stuff looked like. So. Shrug! I'm actually not worried about Craft, in particular, being bad because of Charm clutter or whatever. Like I said, I'm already ambivalent about it since I understand the need for there to be some sort of objectively really high hurdle for artifact makers to have to jump over, so that the game can illustrate why Solars can and Dragon-Bloods largely can't. I am worried about Craft, in particular, being bad because it has a bunch of Charms that do nothing but give the user or some beneficiary free XP. Do you think those are going to go by the wayside? I'm pessimistic!
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 06:39
|
|
|
Ferrinus posted:When Morke sold me on his vision of Martial Arts in the Exalted setting on the WW forums a while ago, he went on a bit about the difference between martial arts and "native" charm cascades, and specifically between something like Snake Style with hookswords and Solar Melee. Martial arts were specific, proscribed, and means-based; Solar melee was broad, improvisational, and effects-based. It's why Melee charms don't care if you're using a dagger or a goremaul. It's about being amazing, not about being amazing at going through a specific set of motions. I agree that rolling to overcome someone's resistance can seem kind of sketchy, but I think it's a misleading impression. Social systems aren't social physics. In-character, you're not destroying their brain, you're showing them something they want. So if they kept the general idea of a sexualized seduction branch to the Performance tree (or moved it into another ability, or whatever), but made it less narrow, would you be more impressed? That'd be my preferred progress - not moving sex and seduction over into another more general tree, but making the seduction tree better. Like, I hope these charms don't stay as written written right now. I think the Monk-Seducing thing should be made a step more interpretive - something like passing out a minor intimacy to all targets and they have to take some kind of action because of it, not everyone attracted to you will specifically try to seduce you. Maybe it just leads to a bunch of job offers. I'd prefer the explicit mention of climax not to be in CBT.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 06:41
|
|
|
Ferrinus posted:I actually like Rose-Lipped Seduction Style for that reason, because it's a charm that uses the Solar's Presence to produce lust and attraction. Well, I mean, I think there's something questionable in the game portraying seduction as a matter of rolling high enough to overcome someone's resistance to start with, but that aside a Presence charm whose effect is that you're simply ravishing and irresistible is just as legit as one whose effect is that you're terrifying or what have you. Celestial Bliss Trick, and I would claim the design of the Performance tree in general, fails by these lights. It's definitely the last sentence (the one that bypasses "unacceptable influences") that tanks the charm.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 06:43
|
|
|
NiciasTSOF posted:I agree that rolling to overcome someone's resistance can seem kind of sketchy, but I think it's a misleading impression. Social systems aren't social physics. In-character, you're not destroying their brain, you're showing them something they want. I don't think it's that simple, and the very existence of the Red Rule is a tipoff that there's something questionable going on in the rules. I'm willing to leave aside the rhetorical effect of rolling against a trait called "Resolve", rules that say the subject has to assent unless they spend a Willpower or whatever, etc in my attack here - I think there's a subtler but more important problem in the basic assumption that anyone whose sexual orientation can hypothetically include the seducer can, with enough skill or cunning, be seduced. It's akin to The Game or pick up art or whatever it's called, a world in which bedding someone is basically a matter of displaying enough #value and pushing the right buttons in the right order. Put another way, why doesn't The Red Rule protect NPCs as surely as PCs? quote:So if they kept the general idea of a sexualized seduction branch to the Performance tree (or moved it into another ability, or whatever), but made it less narrow, would you be more impressed? That'd be my preferred progress - not moving sex and seduction over into another more general tree, but making the seduction tree better. Yeah, I think that'd be fine. Presence or Performance charms which lend an intimate or erotic charge to anything you're doing would be entirely appropriate, and at the same time you could probably produce the as-written Celestial Bliss Trick with a Performance charm that's formally for performing with, specifically, incredible skill and/or tailoring a particular performance to particularly impress and speak to a specific person. Sexual content's perfectly appropriate to Exalted, I just don't want to see Charms that let me reroll 5s and 6s until 5s and 6s fail to appear on my "cause orgasm" action (see page XXX).
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 06:59
|
|
|
The better question about dodge that I think merits an answer is this: Why is there still no Charm that lets you use it to make enemies kill themselves like they're videogame bosses following a Lemming pattern? There's totally precedent for making Dodge have offensive functionalities. I think that'd give the charmset a breath of fresh air, and serve to *finally* distinguish it from Athletics and Melee/Brawl.
Transient People fucked around with this message at 07:07 on Jun 20, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 07:04
|
|
|
Transient People posted:The better question about dodge that I think merits an answer is this: Why is there still no Charm that lets you use it to make enemies kill themselves like they're videogame bosses hitting themselves? There's totally precedent for making Dodge have offensive functionalities. I think that'd give the charmset a breath of fresh air, and serve to *finally* distinguish it from Athletics and Melee/Brawl.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 07:06
|
|
|
You know, I don't remember seeing a "your enemy just runs straight into a wall" or "your enemy ends up stabbing his friend, who was right behind you before you moved" Charm. Obvious oversight, if you ask me.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 07:08
|
|
|
Transient People posted:The better question about dodge that I think merits an answer is this: Why is there still no Charm that lets you use it to make enemies kill themselves like they're videogame bosses hitting themselves? There's totally precedent for making Dodge have offensive functionalities. I think that'd give the charmset a breath of fresh air, and serve to *finally* distinguish it from Athletics and Melee/Brawl. I still don't like Dodge as a separate thing, but having judo matador Charms and pretty much anything interesting out of the Setting Sun school from D&D 3.5's Tome of Battle would go a long way towards at least pretending to make it worth it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 07:08
|
|
|
Ferrinus posted:I don't think it's that simple, and the very existence of the Red Rule is a tipoff that there's something questionable going on in the rules. I'm willing to leave aside the rhetorical effect of rolling against a trait called "Resolve", rules that say the subject has to assent unless they spend a Willpower or whatever, etc in my attack here - I think there's a subtler but more important problem in the basic assumption that anyone whose sexual orientation can hypothetically include the seducer can, with enough skill or cunning, be seduced. It's akin to The Game or pick up art or whatever it's called, a world in which bedding someone is basically a matter of displaying enough #value and pushing the right buttons in the right order. Yeah, it takes some finesse on all parts - writer, player, or storyteller, you've got to handle it carefully. I'm just not sure there's really any way to model social mechanics that doesn't brush against that. The end-result of the social maneuvering rules for NWOD have a better capstone then ignore-with-WP or a red rule, I think; the idea is that if you've won the social interaction and the persuadee doesn't want to roll with it, the persuadee has to offer an alternative to what you were trying to get them to do which is acceptable to all parties. So you seduce the guy with HIV and he refuses on ethical grounds to hook up with you, say, but he still ends up giving you the equivalent of pillow talk, or he introduces you to someone more interested who's as relevant to your plans. That's the balance you're ultimately trying to strike: let seduction be useful and empowering without being a button-mash right through someone's values and interests. EDIT: TL;DR I think the Red Rule can and even should protect NPCs too, that just can't cockblock any result from seduction.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 07:36
|
|
|
I've been up late working for my job and feel like poo poo but am going to keep on going because I like my job and care about the work I am producing. No idea what it is like working on a game with so much turbulence and other things around it Stephenls but I think you are probably working hard and have been for.. months? You deserve a break and a cool refreshing class of Coke.Stephenls posted:(I should note at this point that even I have completely stopped suggesting things to Holden and John, because every time I think I have a good solution to some design problem they're working through, their response is like "Yes, that's a good idea, we had it six weeks ago and tried to make it work about eleven different ways, and in the end we had to abandon it because of the other factors X, Y, Z, and Q that you're not aware of or are not considering." And I go "Oh. Right, I'll shut up.") When I read that above I got frustrated. You are not stupid or rude and the way it sounds, or maybe just the way it sounds like you are feeling, seems to be that your input is not appreciated or acknowledged as valuable. I wanted to read a next section where you say "Hey, don't be a dick bro- I know you tried to fix it but I really think this could work." and then you all bro fist and take a short break before going over mechanics or fluff or jade but saw nothing and got sad. I would start to get snappy after the third time. The reason I bring this up is that when you post that it gives off the vibe you don't even like working on the game at this point which sucks on a personal level and on a PR level is not good. Then we have posts like these which, and I realize you probably feel under attack since you are the only person I see who really talks to fans, read sort of like a gently caress You statement to fans. Stephenls posted:There are many different ways to mitigate this problem, that we could use. For example, we could abandon 1, and make all the different character types run on the same power set. Obviously that's not on the table for us but, hey, people run Exalted using Fate or Quixalted or D&D or whatever, it works for some people. It just doesn't work for our purposes. As someone who does not know all the mechanics off the top of my head and can only understand the above post as a simple new player (a market for selling books) the general vibe given is that I am either stupid for wanting the game to be one way and that the game is no longer being made "the way that will make fans happy" but instead "the way [we the developers] want it to be" which just kind of leaves me put off and confused. I know the message is that game development, design, and balance is very difficult but it easily comes off a bit more "you just don't get it" than "it is a complicated situation, here is my side of it" which is an easy thing to do when you've been working for hours and hours and then just want to quick post on a forum without treating it like a press release. With the fan relationship growing more and more toxic in a game I think was known for having an energetic and faithful fandom this is a huge shame. Everyone needs to take a chill pill and spread some love, so much rage when the game is not Werewolf. EDIT: I made my broken words less broken. Old Doggy Bastard fucked around with this message at 09:26 on Jun 20, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 08:02
|
|
|
Stephenls posted:(I should note at this point that even I have completely stopped suggesting things to Holden and John, because every time I think I have a good solution to some design problem they're working through, their response is like "Yes, that's a good idea, we had it six weeks ago and tried to make it work about eleven different ways, and in the end we had to abandon it because of the other factors X, Y, Z, and Q that you're not aware of or are not considering." And I go "Oh. Right, I'll shut up.") Welcome to life as a playtester!
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 08:30
|
|
|
I feel like in all this talk about XP it would be prudent to return discussion to the topic of Sexcharms and why they aren't a good idea. I really liked the comparison between Vampire and Exalted, and the 'must' versus 'can' aspect of sex powers. I can think of almost no redeeming factor to an ability that can be used solely for sex versus one that can be used for sex but also similarly intimate (but nonsexual) activities.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 08:46
|
|
|
Mendrian posted:I feel like in all this talk about XP it would be prudent to return discussion to the topic of Sexcharms and why they aren't a good idea. I really liked the comparison between Vampire and Exalted, and the 'must' versus 'can' aspect of sex powers. I can think of almost no redeeming factor to an ability that can be used solely for sex versus one that can be used for sex but also similarly intimate (but nonsexual) activities. You know what would be good instead of more Sex Charm discussion, when the point's been made, remade, trimade and then beaten to a bloody pulp until the pulpers puked bloody bile on the remains? Something new. And ideally, something useful. How about we all look at the leaked playtest and try and see what parts are *mechanically* wonky and which are not, instead of focusing on an irrelevant 0.0005% of the text? If the mechanics are poo poo, the game's worthless and we'll have to keep on using another system that is not Exalted to run Exalted. I'd much rather we center our feedback on what does and doesn't work first and foremost so we get a good game, rather than the sex charms, which are more a matter of small fluff rewrites and then some fixing for Rose-Lipped Seduction Style. In fact, that is precisely what I'm gonna do starting tomorrow, analyze the charm trees one by one and see if I can divine a core purpose/strategy/fantasy/archetype (which all trees should have, for reasons of basic synergy and coherence), and if so, which Charms fail to reinforce that theme and thus need fixed. Seems to me like an infinitely better use of our time, and I'd be very happy if anybody else cared to contribute such feedback to the thread, on the off chance any of the actual signed up playtesters cares to take a look, agrees with it and passes it on to Holden and Morke. How's that sound?
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 09:23
|
|
|
Transient People posted:You know what would be good instead of more Sex Charm discussion, when the point's been made, remade, trimade and then beaten to a bloody pulp until the pulpers puked bloody bile on the remains? Something new. And ideally, something useful. How about we all look at the leaked playtest and try and see what parts are *mechanically* wonky and which are not, instead of focusing on an irrelevant 0.0005% of the text? If the mechanics are poo poo, the game's worthless and we'll have to keep on using another system that is not Exalted to run Exalted. I'd much rather we center our feedback on what does and doesn't work first and foremost so we get a good game, rather than the sex charms, which are more a matter of small fluff rewrites and then some fixing for Rose-Lipped Seduction Style. In fact, that is precisely what I'm gonna do starting tomorrow, analyze the charm trees one by one and see if I can divine a core purpose/strategy/fantasy/archetype (which all trees should have, for reasons of basic synergy and coherence), and if so, which Charms fail to reinforce that theme and thus need fixed. Seems to me like an infinitely better use of our time, and I'd be very happy if anybody else cared to contribute such feedback to the thread, on the off chance any of the actual signed up playtesters cares to take a look, agrees with it and passes it on to Holden and Morke. How's that sound? I think that's a cool idea but let's not pretend design and mechanical discussion are somehow mutually exclusive, like there's only room for X number of opinions in the day and we should be careful about what kinds of opinions to express. I think "Sexcharms are dumb, lol" is a dead horse, yes, but the must-versus-can discussion hasn't gotten nearly enough play. On the topic of your post - I think it's a good idea to be careful when examining the archetypal applications of a given Charm tree. I think Charm trees should enable at least two very different archetypes per tree. For instance, if Sail only enables, "Is a pirate", that's a problem, because while you want a pirate to be playable, it's dumb to devote pagecount to "Pirate guy" in a classless system. So if I have any input (as someone not diving into the packet), it's that "Does this tree enable an archetype?" is only a footnote in the discussion. "Does this have a clear theme and could it be adapted to multiple archetypes?" seems more germane.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 09:31
|
|
|
Attorney at Funk posted:The problem here is that we don't get Holden's thoughts on it, because that would require him to tell us which closet he buried the presents in, like a less funny and more literal Bad Santa This is unfair, because in the specific example of BP vs XP, Holden has talked himself hoarse about his reasons. I disagree with those reasons at maximum thoroughness and will houserule that awful broken horror as soon as I'm for real playing rather than playtesting, but he has explained that bit.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 09:33
|
|
|
Kai Tave posted:What does Celestial Bliss Trick say about Solars or the Unconquered Sun? If it's just "Solars are the best, even at loving" then that's not exactly something that really needed elaboration is it? "Solars are the best" is painted all over the game even when the system doesn't always cooperate in that regard, do you really need to devote wordcount to making sure people understand that "the best at everything" also includes sex? Just in case they forget or it was unclear or something? If they wanted to devote wordcount to "Solars are the best at everything including loving", a better solution would be a sidebar going something like: "This list of Charms is large but by no means exhaustive of all the effects Solars have invented throughout the First and Second Age. Solars are masters at all human endeavors, including farming, animal ranching, eating, urban planning, and yes, even sex. The charms in the core book are intended to give a broad range of effects useful for most games. Should your game be about eating contests or farming or urban planning and one of those rare endeavors becomes critical to your game, feel free to use the Charms in the book as guidelines to create comparable ones. Otherwise, a character can be assumed to have any non-listed charms that are important to their concept." And then a quick explanation of how to switch general charms (double 9s, reroll 6s, etc) to work with those or something. It'd be some practice for Exigents, and it'd also make it clear that yes you can play a Solar Urban Planner. If you want. And the game supports it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 10:01
|
|
|
Ferrinus posted:You know, I don't remember seeing a "your enemy just runs straight into a wall" or "your enemy ends up stabbing his friend, who was right behind you before you moved" Charm. Obvious oversight, if you ask me.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 14:33
|
|
|
Zereth posted:The Terrestrial Dodge charm Safety Among Enemies let you redirect attacks. I think it took a roll of your dodge pool against their Essence? It did, yeah, though until your post I couldn't recall if it was a DB or Lunar charm. I half suspect we didn't see a similar power purely because that's traditionally been a DB trick, although when you think about it you realize it fits the rare, one-is-the-match-of-many Solars than it does the numerous, teamwork-focused Dragon-Blooded.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 16:34
|
|
|
Xelkelvos posted:No, not flying Kiteboards. Flying Daiklaves that have the shape of a surfboard and can be used in combat while ridden You both just chose longer ways to say surfboard. As a true lord of the waves, an Exalt knows nothing which cannot be surfed.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 16:38
|
|
|
Transient People posted:I'd much rather we center our feedback on what does and doesn't work first and foremost so we get a good game, rather than the sex charms, which are more a matter of small fluff rewrites and then some fixing for Rose-Lipped Seduction Style. You say this like there's the slightest chance Holden gives a poo poo about anything being said in this thread by a bunch of "ugh, goons."
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 16:40
|
|
|
A fair number of playtesters read this thread. They can confirm or correct our estimations of Charm balance and pass any conclusions we collectively come to up the ladder. Here's what I'm wondering: since a lot of Melee charms seem to scale off net successes, does Melee disproportionately reward use of Light as opposed to Heavy or Medium weapons? IS there, in fact, a real reason to interweave Melee and Brawl, or Melee and MA?
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 16:47
|
|
|
Kai Tave posted:You say this like there's the slightest chance Holden gives a poo poo about anything being said in this thread by a bunch of "ugh, goons." Unless he ignores the feedback of the signed playtesters, it's likely he does. We do the work, we pass the finished analysis to the testers, they throw it Holden and Hatewheel's way. Seems pretty reasonable to me. Ferrinus posted:A fair number of playtesters read this thread. They can confirm or correct our estimations of Charm balance and pass any conclusions we collectively come to up the ladder. My read of it is that Melee right now is fundamentally dependent on a clarification on Solar Counterattack, because depending on how it works it might or might not be a really good or really bad ability, defensively speaking. Heavenly Guardian Defense is really not that good as a defensive mechanism and combined, Dipping Swallow Defense and upgrades only mitigate about 25% of the damage you're expected to take (which isn't really worth a drat in a death spiral system), but if Solar Counterattack can cancel the attack that spawned it by killing the attacker then it works pretty well as an aggressive defense system. If that's the case, it does indeed confirm Melee really wants Light weaponry, because you need to keep your initiative super high at all times to counter killing strikes, in contrast with Dodge focused characters who just go "Seven Shadow Evasion, #YOLO" and avoid killshots.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 16:58
|
|
|
Ferrinus posted:A fair number of playtesters read this thread. They can confirm or correct our estimations of Charm balance and pass any conclusions we collectively come to up the ladder. They can, though the overwhelming impression given so far in this thread since the playtest leaked and even prior to that with regard to things like BP/XP split costs and "why do you have two skills for punching people" seems to be "we could do these things differently...but we're not gonna because we've already decided how we're going to do things." My point is that going "guys guys, shut up about sex charms so we can focus on the real important issues that are totally going to help make this a better game for reals" seems unduly optimistic. I mean, a lot of the discussions/arguments that have centered around game mechanics and design decisions have also, in TransientPeople's words, been "made, remade, trimade and then beaten to a bloody pulp until the pulpers puked bloody bile on the remains" too.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 17:00
|
|
|
Transient People posted:My read of it is that Melee right now is fundamentally dependent on a clarification on Solar Counterattack, because depending on how it works it might or might not be a really good or really bad ability, defensively speaking. Heavenly Guardian Defense is really not that good as a defensive mechanism and combined, Dipping Swallow Defense and upgrades only mitigate about 25% of the damage you're expected to take (which isn't really worth a drat in a death spiral system), but if Solar Counterattack can cancel the attack that spawned it by killing the attacker then it works pretty well as an aggressive defense system. If that's the case, it does indeed confirm Melee really wants Light weaponry, because you need to keep your initiative super high at all times to counter killing strikes, in contrast with Dodge focused characters who just go "Seven Shadow Evasion, #YOLO" and avoid killshots. How do you arrive at 25%, there? I'm not sure that Heavenly Guardian Defense is as bad as you say. It basically turns a Decisive attack into, instead, a lovely Withering attack, and in the exact proportions that you want it to because you get to see the final damage before you spend any initiative of your own. Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 17:27 on Jun 20, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 17:24
|
|
|
HGD isn't intrinsically bad, it's just bad because anybody trying to make a decisive attack on you will be packing massive init and trying to Crash you. It doesn't help you when you most need it, whereas Solar Counterattack will at the very least get you out of Crash, and may straight up prevent damage done to you. It does prevent gotcha strikes where somebody amasses big init by kicking a weaker character's rear end and then unloads on you, but I feel like it should be more general than that.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 17:29
|
|
|
Ferrinus posted:I'm not sure that Heavenly Guardian Defense is as bad as you say. It basically turns a Decisive attack into, instead, a lovely Withering attack, and in the exact proportions that you want it to because you get to see the final damage before you spend any initiative of your own.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 17:31
|
|
|
Transient People posted:HGD isn't intrinsically bad, it's just bad because anybody trying to make a decisive attack on you will be packing massive init and trying to Crash you. It doesn't help you when you most need it, whereas Solar Counterattack will at the very least get you out of Crash, and may straight up prevent damage done to you. It does prevent gotcha strikes where somebody amasses big init by kicking a weaker character's rear end and then unloads on you, but I feel like it should be more general than that. But... decisive attacks don't crash you. Or do you mean that anyone trying to make a decisive attack on you has probably already crashed you or come close to it? I think that's the point - HGD isn't there to save you from crash, it's there to force anyone who wants to kill you to crash you. Normally, if you roll well on join battle or something could hypothetically open with an alpha strike in an attempt not to kill you but to immediately push you down into wound penalties. Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Jun 20, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 17:44
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 19:29 |
|
|
Yeah, I wasn't too clear - I meant that anybody trying to make Decisive Attacks against you would probably want to crash you first. One thing HGD does do pretty well is prevent sneak attacks, though. It's really hard to seriously damage someone with HGD through an ambush if he's allowed to use charms, because he'll have his JB successes to burn on shutting down your killshot. It's just...not really what I think of when I think 'masterful parry', y'know? To me a masterful parry is more like cleanly slicing an enormous doombeam in half so it streams past you, or cutting a storm of bullets to ribbons, less 'an assassin shot me with a crossbow, suddenly I turn and cut the bolt down'. That's totally something that needs representation in the melee tree but less than the former does, IMO.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 17:49
|
|