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Lazyfire posted:I don't know, but if you throw at least $50 in to kickstart my open world zombie survival game with crafting elements and the option to play as a zombie instead of respawning I will name an NPC after you! Okay, but only if your preview gameplay footage runs at 4 fps.
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Jun 20, 2014 16:54
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I don't know that LP is necessarily a great advertising tool. I played the first four Ace Attorney games, loved them, was wondering what happened next, and watched a guy on YouTube play Ace Attorney 5, loved it, and saved myself $30. After seeing the MGS 5 trailer at E3 my first thought was "This looks amazing I can't wait to see what Chip Cheezum does with this!" but I have 0 desire to ever actually play it.
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Jun 20, 2014 17:30
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Nine times out of ten, if I see a game that looks super fun, I'll stop watching the LP and play it myself. I've never actively NOT bought a game because I saw an LP of it unless it's a game I never intended to buy in the first place.
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Jun 20, 2014 17:36
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In the most extreme possible permutation I bought Dark Souls, despite the fact that I have no intention of playing it, because LPs showed me what an amazing game it is and I wanted to support it. I would never have bought the Paradox games or Factorio, or Binding of Isaac or... * without having seen someone at least start to play it. "You loving idiot, give the new the third artifact instead, I am going to try this for myself " has driven a fair number of purchases for me. But then, I don't own Feb either.
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Jun 20, 2014 17:52
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Roar posted:Nine times out of ten, if I see a game that looks super fun, I'll stop watching the LP and play it myself. I've never actively NOT bought a game because I saw an LP of it unless it's a game I never intended to buy in the first place. I literally watched an LP of Max Payne 3 and Black Ops 2 all the way through and still bought the games because of how fun they looked. I still regularly replay Max Payne 3, to the point where I've beaten the game three times and I'm aiming for a fourth on the hardest difficulty. It's just a good enough game on its own merits that even watching someone else play it isn't terrible.
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Jun 20, 2014 19:02
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chitoryu12 posted:I literally watched an LP of Max Payne 3 and Black Ops 2 all the way through and still bought the games because of how fun they looked. I still regularly replay Max Payne 3, to the point where I've beaten the game three times and I'm aiming for a fourth on the hardest difficulty. It's just a good enough game on its own merits that even watching someone else play it isn't terrible. At first I was like "Cool, someone bought a game because of something I did." Then I realized that I led another human to purchase a Call of Duty game that featured required terrible side missions.
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Jun 20, 2014 19:43
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Lazyfire posted:At first I was like "Cool, someone bought a game because of something I did." Then I realized that I led another human to purchase a Call of Duty game that featured required terrible side missions. You monster.
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Jun 20, 2014 20:09
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Mister Xenophobe posted:You monster. Mods, please change my name to Worse Than Hitler so the world will know my shame.
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Jun 20, 2014 20:22
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Lazyfire posted:Mods, please change my name to Worse Than Hitler so the world will know my shame. Mods, instead change his name to Phil Fish with the tagline 'Worse than Hitler' tia
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Jun 21, 2014 00:01
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gently caress you, Phil Fish, how dare you say that loser freeloaders shouldn't make money off of your work? It's completely irrelevant if you bought a game because of an LP, or if ten thousand people bought a game because of an LP. If a person doesn't want his intellectual property to be used by others for commercial purposes, it should be their natural prerogative.
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Jun 21, 2014 01:56
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Phil's argument wasn't very well thought out (going by how he said "nevermind" and in a panic, protected his Twitter), but it does bring an interesting point: There are those who would rather watch LP than actually buy the game themselves. Is it a majority? I think not, but I could see some being annoyed that millions of people watch an LP, and they had few, if any, of those people actually buy the game. I'm assuming the developers of Walden and there Werewolf weren't pleased that the LP coverage that game received resulted in only a few sales. People don't have to buy a game with no replay value when others are willing to do it for them. Granted, that could also be the result of people making a bad game, and trying to sell it.
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Jun 21, 2014 02:08
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Most of what I know about Phil Fish is from an review/'expose' by TheBestGamers on him and Fez. It was pretty great at showing off how ignorant and bigheaded Fish seems to be, so this just seems like par for the course in terms of trying to get attention and doing it through a really contrived, grasping argument. For instance he previously stated that most modern Japanese games are "loving terrible" at a panel without really going into why, obviously flamebaiting for attention.
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Jun 21, 2014 02:10
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Why should some sort of utilitarian calculation matter at all in the area of property rights? I find it quite disturbing how quickly the rhetoric on monetized LPs shifted to apparently them being completely justified, infallible as a concept and a human right or something. Instead of being barely above piracy and sustainable only because of Google's marketing arm.
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Jun 21, 2014 02:11
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I guess the question there is whether there's any cases where a game's sales were hurt by the exposure of a big-name LP. I'm pretty sure even terrible games like Sonic 2006 and Ride to Hell: Retribution actually got some sales just from people wanting to experience the terribleness themselves.
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Jun 21, 2014 02:13
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Again, how does that figure into the right of the owner of the property to control its use in the commercial domain? If I bootleg a movie, causing some people to buy a higher quality blu-ray to enjoy the film properly, am I a hero for creating publicity for the studio?
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Jun 21, 2014 02:15
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Mr. Soop posted:Most of what I know about Phil Fish is from an review/'expose' by TheBestGamers on him and Fez. It was pretty great at showing off how ignorant and bigheaded Fish seems to be, so this just seems like par for the course in terms of trying to get attention and doing it through a really contrived, grasping argument. For instance he previously stated that most modern Japanese games are "loving terrible" at a panel without really going into why, obviously flamebaiting for attention. If this thread is going to talk about Phil Fish you at least owe it yourself to watch this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmTUW-owa2w He's still an rear end in a top hat, but not nearly enough for the amount of ire he gets.
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Jun 21, 2014 02:38
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steinrokkan posted:gently caress you, Phil Fish, how dare you say that loser freeloaders shouldn't make money off of your work? They can and do. See: Nintendo, or the companies that straight up have LPs removed (I think Capcom got negative press for doing this a couple of times?). Doesn't change the fact that Phil Fish is a douchebag and idiot.
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Jun 21, 2014 02:46
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steinrokkan posted:I find it quite disturbing how quickly the rhetoric on monetized LPs shifted to apparently them being completely justified, infallible as a concept and a human right or something. Instead of being barely above piracy and sustainable only because of Google's marketing arm. Since when was anyone in this thread trying to treat it as an unassailable human right? Chill the gently caress out.
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Jun 21, 2014 03:27
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Pretty sure they were being hyperbolic.
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Jun 21, 2014 03:43
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steinrokkan posted:Instead of being barely above piracy and sustainable only because of Google's marketing arm. Developers encourage it now. That is actually where the paradigm shifted.
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Jun 21, 2014 03:55
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LPing is excellent networking and free promotion. Getting huffy about it like some companies have is just shooting themselves in the foot and creating PR drama for no reason. That being said it's perfectly within their rights to be huffy. It just makes very little business sense.
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Jun 21, 2014 04:27
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slowbeef posted:Developers encourage it now. That is actually where the paradigm shifted. I think another big turning point was when streaming and sharing gameplay footage was built into the XBox One and PS4. (Speaking of, the XBone Twitch app actually has facecam as default 'on', which saddens me.)
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Jun 21, 2014 12:33
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I've probably said it before, and I'll say it again - if watching an LP is a substitute for playing the game, then it probably means you've made a bad game. Too many games these days are tending toward focusing on telling a story and ignoring the fact that the game should be fun to play. Many games certainly become LESS fun if you know the twists and turns of the plot beforehand, but if there isn't enough fun in the gameplay to sustain a second playthrough, or a first after watching an LP, you should go back to the drawing board, erase everything, write FUN in giant letters, then fill in the rest of the design around that. Visual novels are obviously a different animal because the story IS the entire focus of the game, but even games like VLR and Ace Attorney pack a lot of humor into things like descriptions and poking randomly at stuff that a player could enjoy - and of course, a properly-paced LP can build suspense that has people flocking (literally, for something like Hatoful Boyfriend) to buy the game themselves rather than wait for the LP to cover everything.
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Jun 21, 2014 12:47
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Fez is definitely the kind of game you can enjoy to its fullest extent just by watching a let's play/walthrough so I can see why Phil Fish is upset about the idea of LP monetization. Apparently Nintendo is working on a thing where monetized Youtube videos that use footage of their games split the revenue between the uploader and Nintendo themselves. Assuming the ratios are appropriate that seems like the best possible future for Let's Play monetization.
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Jun 21, 2014 13:36
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Nidoking posted:I've probably said it before, and I'll say it again - if watching an LP is a substitute for playing the game, then it probably means you've made a bad game. Too many games these days are tending toward focusing on telling a story and ignoring the fact that the game should be fun to play. Many games certainly become LESS fun if you know the twists and turns of the plot beforehand, but if there isn't enough fun in the gameplay to sustain a second playthrough, or a first after watching an LP, you should go back to the drawing board, erase everything, write FUN in giant letters, then fill in the rest of the design around that. Says the guy who LPs adventure games, which are play-once, puzzle-it-out, and then you're done. FEZ is a pretty good game about exploration and puzzle solving. It's fun to play, but showing it off on video is going to ruin everything. Pretty much any game that relies on thinking and puzzle solving will be ruined by an LP, even if it's a good game.
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Jun 21, 2014 14:13
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Suspicious Dish posted:Says the guy who LPs adventure games, which are play-once, puzzle-it-out, and then you're done. Counter point, any Legend of Zelda adventure game. Some games are definitely better or have more value to them. It would be like saying Tetris is a poo poo game because it's just about figuring out how to form a complete line. I think, between purchases I've made of videogames that I had not seen a LP of and games I have, I have been much happier with my LP'ed games. And liking those LP'ed games gets me to check the other games in their catalogue which usually leads to more purchases.
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Jun 21, 2014 14:34
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Jobbo_Fett posted:Counter point, any Legend of Zelda adventure game. Not really what was meant by "adventure game" in this context. And yeah, an LP being a substitute for the game does not automatically equal bad game it just really heavily depends on the kind of game in question. There's no value judgement there, just not all games are the same!
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Jun 21, 2014 14:47
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SuccinctAndPunchy posted:Not really what was meant by "adventure game" in this context. http://lparchive.org/author/nidoking King's Quest, Space Quest, Toonstruck. Myst also sort of falls in this category. The only game I've bought for an LP was Stacking, but that's because I was so charmed by the first 15 minutes of the LP that I stopped watching it immediately and bought the game and beat it. Jobbo_Fett posted:Counter point, any Legend of Zelda adventure game. Which Zelda LP got people to go buy a Zelda game?
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Jun 21, 2014 15:00
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SuccinctAndPunchy posted:And yeah, an LP being a substitute for the game does not automatically equal bad game it just really heavily depends on the kind of game in question. There's no value judgement there, just not all games are the same! Sure, but an LP being a substitute for the game doesn't automatically mean I'll watch the entirety of it, play it in the same way as LP'er or not enjoy the gameplay/mechanics of the game. To me, it's more like experiencing a very long demo or gameplay video with the addition of commentary without having to invest money into it. In a way, the void left by the death of demos (Though some companies still release some, or have trial versions available) was filled by LP's. Demos were the risk the devs took to try and get more sales, and LPs follow in that same vein except that it's barely ever the developers that organize it. Suspicious Dish posted:Which Zelda LP got people to go buy a Zelda game? As in general population? I don't know, and who would? But after seeing LP's of Skyward Sword, Majora's Mask, Twilight Princess and Wind Waker, along with some conversations with other goons, I'm definitely going to be purchasing the next LoZ and Wind Waker. Jobbo_Fett fucked around with this message at 15:11 on Jun 21, 2014 |
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Jun 21, 2014 15:08
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steinrokkan posted:If a person doesn't want his intellectual property to be used by others for commercial purposes, it should be their natural prerogative. It doesn't matter what he wants. It matters if he's allowed to get it. steinrokkan posted:Instead of being barely above piracy and sustainable only because of Google's marketing arm. The problem here is that the issue is really about on one big, broad category (media featuring video game content), but people narrow down discussion to different categories (like you talking about monetized LPs on Youtube) and interpret comments about the issue in different ways. Fish's comments were never explicitly about monetized LPs, but you assume they are. It might be a safe assumption, but it's not fair to put words in his mouth, and when you narrow down the focus of the issue, you ignore the actual issue at hand. steinrokkan posted:If I bootleg a movie, causing some people to buy a higher quality blu-ray to enjoy the film properly, am I a hero for creating publicity for the studio? Video games are not movies.
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Jun 21, 2014 16:04
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Gaz-L posted:I think another big turning point was when streaming and sharing gameplay footage was built into the XBox One and PS4. (Speaking of, the XBone Twitch app actually has facecam as default 'on', which saddens me.) That kind of raises a question about ownership too, though. I mean, say Phil Fish gets his wish and everyone who uploads footage of his game has to pay him a royalty. Where do built in streaming capabilities fall under that? Does Microsoft have a clause in the Marketplace contract that says he gives up the right to collect money from them when their players stream fez?
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Jun 21, 2014 16:42
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Suspicious Dish posted:Says the guy who LPs adventure games, which are play-once, puzzle-it-out, and then you're done. I think there's plenty to be found in most of the games I've LPed that wasn't in the videos - the later Space Quests especially have a ton of humorous descriptions in the environments.
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Jun 21, 2014 20:38
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JordanKai posted:Fez is definitely the kind of game you can enjoy to its fullest extent just by watching a let's play/walthrough I really, really don't understand this. It's a puzzle game. The experience of playing the game is way way different than the experience of watching the game being played. Sure, watching it might ruin the puzzles, making you not want to play it, but if you are the sort of person who'd let those puzzles be ruined rather than playing the game yourself, you probably never had any intention of playing it.
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Jun 21, 2014 20:52
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It just shows that the argument "LPs create demand for games" is completely worthless. Specific individuals have highly contradictory preferences - some prefer passive consumption of media, some have biases against certain styles of gameplay, some follow LPs because of cost aversion - and unless you can make a reasonably authoritative aggregate model of your market you can't say that LPs give you more customers.Jamesman posted:The problem here is that the issue is really about on one big, broad category (media featuring video game content), but people narrow down discussion to different categories (like you talking about monetized LPs on Youtube)
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Jun 21, 2014 21:05
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DontMockMySmock posted:Sure, watching it might ruin the puzzles, making you not want to play it, but if you are the sort of person who'd let those puzzles be ruined rather than playing the game yourself, you probably never had any intention of playing it. The issue is that once you know the solution, the puzzle is ruined. You aren't going to think about the puzzles in the same way. Nidoking posted:I think there's plenty to be found in most of the games I've LPed that wasn't in the videos - the later Space Quests especially have a ton of humorous descriptions in the environments. Sure, but I don't think it's something I would buy a game for. That said, I wasn't ever going to buy Space Quest to start with, so it doesn't really matter.
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Jun 21, 2014 21:28
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I'm pretty sure this argument's been going on since at least 2007 and I'm pretty sure we won't settle it in this thread.
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Jun 21, 2014 23:08
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steinrokkan posted:From the outset the point of the debate has been about LP royalties, which only makes sense in the case of monetized LPs. You would think so, wouldn't you? The issue is about game content. Primarily, yes, that relates heavily to Let's Plays, but there are people who are not just talking about Let's Plays, and more importantly, the things people might want and the actions that have been taken and could be taken affect significantly more than just people that make Let's Plays. If a game company is OK with people making reviews, critiques, parodies, competitive matches, etc, but they want changes made specifically to how Let's Plays are handled, they actually can't do that because media hosts like Google do not provide sophisticated enough content ID systems to differentiate amongst different usages of game content. The next steps would be for media hosts to improve their content ID and copyright support, and for companies and media creators to come together and have a proper dialogue about what they think and what they want, rather than some random indie developer popping up on Twitter and then disappearing again. Before any of that happens, no changes should be made.
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Jun 22, 2014 15:43
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Are you absolutely sure about that? Film and music industries seem to have achieved a reasonably operational level of control over fair use of their material, despite relying on the same providers and technologies. You could argue that films and music are easier to detect, but I think it's a matter of degree, not of principle when it comes to enforcing. Also, if indie authors regardless of industry are unable to achieve control over their intellectual property, that points towards a serious deficiency in Google's system; it doesn't legitimize acts alienating basic property rights.
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Jun 22, 2014 23:07
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While the forums were down I popped over into Reddit's Let's Play sub and tried my hand at understanding what the difference is between what people do here and what they think they should be doing. It's amazing. People with a max of five views per video complaining that their 300 videos have been stripped of monetization, people begging for views in threads by posting videos couched in "this isn't exactly what you are looking for, but here's my Minecraft LP!" and so on. Maybe most disturbing was a thread where someone asked what the top three annoying things YouTube Let's Players did was and his top three included "the facecam isn't big enough!" When I posted that the facecam didn't add anything he started asking me how we were supposed to connect to the person playing the game, after all "It's called Let's Play for a reason!" I don't even know what he was trying to say with that one.
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Jun 27, 2014 03:30
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I think I learned the appeal of the Minecraft LP thing during those twitch goku goon rushes. Although most of the streamers were your stereotypical young minecraft nerds there was this one channel that was p cool because the people streaming went with the spirit of a few hundred goons jumping on their streams demanding that they build goku and they seemed to have as much fun as everyone else. I actually checked their stuff out yesterday and while it isn't really my thing; there is something quite relaxing about watching some chill people dick around in an open game like that... They also build two goku's docking which is pretty much the best thing you could do in any game ever!
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Jun 27, 2014 04:00
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