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on the left posted:This would certainly throw a wrench in the "be quiet when X group speaks" logic if you can step in and override a group's wishes if they are fundamentally incompatible with yours. It's not "be quiet when X group speaks" like some kind of oppression hierarchy. It's "be quiet and learn if you don't know anything." It's not gay or black people's fault that most straight white American men feel entitled to speak from ignorance all the time.
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Jun 22, 2014 04:38
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A black person complaining about white people is a person punching upwards, so the venting makes sense (white people oppress black people, black people don't oppress white people) A straight person complaining about gay people is a person punching downwards, so they're just being a dickhole, which is the case of your fictional, homophobic, xenophobic Russian Girlfrien.
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Jun 22, 2014 06:24
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Zelder posted:A black person complaining about white people is a person punching upwards, so the venting makes sense (white people oppress black people, black people don't oppress white people) I think that falls apart when you get down to individuals instead of societies or cultures. I mean if someones boss is race X and the boss denies a subordinate raises or promotions purely because that subordinate is of race Y the boss is being a racist regardless of the societal power balance between races X and Y, yes?
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Jun 22, 2014 12:40
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AVeryLargeRadish posted:I think that falls apart when you get down to individuals instead of societies or cultures. I mean if someones boss is race X and the boss denies a subordinate raises or promotions purely because that subordinate is of race Y the boss is being a racist regardless of the societal power balance between races X and Y, yes? Keep in mind that any time a white person is passed over for a promotion or not hired for a job/accepted to a college, etc they're already ready to blame affirmative action so that probably colors their perception of events such as your example. Let's also keep in mind that this example is invariably less common than a situation where the roles were reversed. I just can't make myself feel terribly concerned. I guess you could examine the class aspect of it at that point. A wealthy minority could be accused of "punching down" at a poor white person, but it doesn't happen in a vacuum and it doesn't strip that white person of all their privilege suddenly.
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Jun 22, 2014 13:04
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DeadmansReach posted:Keep in mind that any time a white person is passed over for a promotion or not hired for a job/accepted to a college, etc they're already ready to blame affirmative action so that probably colors their perception of events such as your example. Let's also keep in mind that this example is invariably less common than a situation where the roles were reversed. I just can't make myself feel terribly concerned. First off saying that all white people are immediately ready to blame AA when they don't get a promotion is just the same sort of thing that white racists say about blacks, stop treating an arbitrary group as a monolith. And yes, a black boss discriminating against a white employee is much rarer than the reverse, hence why there does not need to be a response from society as a whole such as programs like AA. But the rarity or commonality of that situation does not justify it, in either example the discrimination is wrong. DeadmansReach posted:I guess you could examine the class aspect of it at that point. A wealthy minority could be accused of "punching down" at a poor white person, but it doesn't happen in a vacuum and it doesn't strip that white person of all their privilege suddenly. Of course it does not, but I am talking about individual actors and the interactions between them, just because the poor white in the example is coming from a place of racial privilege compared to their boss does not mean that the boss's discrimination on basis of race is justified.
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Jun 22, 2014 14:00
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DeadmansReach posted:I guess you could examine the class aspect of it at that point. A wealthy minority could be accused of "punching down" at a poor white person, but it doesn't happen in a vacuum and it doesn't strip that white person of all their privilege suddenly.
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Jun 22, 2014 16:10
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Considering how important your job/career is in our economic system, I think it's kinda weird you basically dismiss the position of power the boss has in that situation, just because the person in power in this case is a minority. Racial privilege isn't some magical thing that just trumps everything else, especially on the individual level. That's because the only point anyone in this thread is trying to make is "White people, BAD!"
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Jun 22, 2014 17:45
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bango skank posted:That's because the only point anyone in this thread is trying to make is "White people, BAD!" To be fair it's a really good point.
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Jun 22, 2014 17:48
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The kind of people who get honestly upset by a flippant "kill all white people" are worthy of mockery and should be ashamed of themselves.
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Jun 22, 2014 18:29
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bango skank posted:That's because the only point anyone in this thread is trying to make is "White people, BAD!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9rXISqwEKM
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Jun 22, 2014 18:32
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My point was that even in these rare instances somebody may be upset at equal(ie NOT-privileged treatment) and call it discrimination. I love that people concede that genuine instances of this scenario are so uncommon that they aren't worth addressing at a system wide level, but apparently still worth moaning and hand-wringing over. I'm waiting for somebody to unironically post that anti-racist means anti-white. 
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Jun 22, 2014 18:34
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DeadmansReach posted:I'm waiting for somebody to unironically post that anti-racist means anti-white. And then calling for RaHoWa.
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Jun 22, 2014 18:43
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DeadmansReach posted:My point was that even in these rare instances somebody may be upset at equal(ie NOT-privileged treatment) and call it discrimination. I love that people concede that genuine instances of this scenario are so uncommon that they aren't worth addressing at a system wide level, but apparently still worth moaning and hand-wringing over.
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Jun 22, 2014 18:50
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My example was of a white person receiving fair and equal treatment but being upset because they are used to extra privilege. There is no discrimination here. Now capitalism and classism are certainly huge issues, but they can be addressed at the same time as racism. Caring about two things at time, etc etc, also not really the topic of the thread.
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Jun 22, 2014 19:11
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In what position would a white person have the reasonable belief that they didn't get the job promotion because of their race?
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Jun 22, 2014 19:38
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DeadmansReach posted:My example was of a white person receiving fair and equal treatment but being upset because they are used to extra privilege. There is no discrimination here.
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Jun 22, 2014 19:55
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It was to demonstrate that the example that we've agreed is very unlikely to actually happen is even more so when races X and Y are anything and white, respectively.
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Jun 22, 2014 20:04
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Zelder posted:In what position would a white person have the reasonable belief that they didn't get the job promotion because of their race? Well probably the same as the reverse one except reverse? Like if they were more qualified than the other guy who got hired because he was the same race as the hirer.
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Jun 22, 2014 20:11
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ChairMaster posted:Well probably the same as the reverse one except reverse? Like if they were more qualified than the other guy who got hired because he was the same race as the hirer. Do you really think this happens a lot, though? I would say that the number of white people who experienced something like that (being genuinely more qualified but being passed over because they were white) is vanishingly small.
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Jun 22, 2014 20:15
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DeadmansReach posted:It was to demonstrate that the example that we've agreed is very unlikely to actually happen is even more so when races X and Y are anything and white, respectively.
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Jun 22, 2014 20:17
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Blue Star posted:Do you really think this happens a lot, though? I would say that the number of white people who experienced something like that (being genuinely more qualified but being passed over because they were white) is vanishingly small. Well no poo poo. Someone asked a stupid question so I gave them an answer.
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Jun 22, 2014 20:17
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A Buttery Pastry posted:How is that relevant, when we're discussing the conceptual possibility of anti-white racism? That seems like the go-to trick to discussing that topic in this thread, to conflate the fact that it's very rare with the idea that it's an impossibility. Maybe people don't commit to writing it explicitly like that, but that is basically what people are doing. Yes, instead of talking about actual problems, let's wring our hands over the travails of an imaginary white man. Where's that bingo card?
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Jun 22, 2014 20:47
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VitalSigns posted:Yes, instead of talking about actual problems, let's wring our hands over the travails of an imaginary white man.
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Jun 22, 2014 21:13
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"Honey, I'm sorry to call with bad news, but I didn't get the promotion. I'm beginning to think that Ebony magazine might not be the right fit for me, John Van Der Smoot the 3rd."
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Jun 22, 2014 21:13
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A Buttery Pastry posted:That's not what I'm trying to do. Like, seriously, I don't care about the travails of an imaginary white man. I care about the fact that a lot of people in this thread believe his existence is an impossibility, which goes back to the whole mythologizing white people thing. White people aren't individually special, they just happened to come out on top. In a system where minorities can succeed enough to carve out places of power themselves, the idea that you can't see reversals of power relationships (as seen from the perspective of race), within limited boundaries, is mythologizing white people. I agree that it's perfectly possible in theory for a black man to pick a black applicant over a white one out of prejudice. And if he did, it would be wrong of him to do that. I just don't understand the relevance to the conversation because we're talking about the way the real world works where the shoe is pretty much always on the other foot, and that's what black people like OP's friends are mad about, and the conceptual possibility of an exception happening somewhere doesn't change that. You might as well say, "It's physically possible for a black person to enslave a white person, so what if white people were slaves, that'd be bad, huh?" okay...yes it would be...and?
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Jun 22, 2014 21:26
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A Buttery Pastry posted:That's not what I'm trying to do. Like, seriously, I don't care about the travails of an imaginary white man. I care about the fact that a lot of people in this thread believe his existence is an impossibility, which goes back to the whole mythologizing white people thing. White people aren't individually special, they just happened to come out on top. In a system where minorities can succeed enough to carve out places of power themselves, the idea that you can't see reversals of power relationships (as seen from the perspective of race), within limited boundaries, is mythologizing white people. This doesn't make a lick of sense. I keep re-reading it, but no.
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Jun 22, 2014 21:36
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SedanChair posted:This doesn't make a lick of sense. I keep re-reading it, but no. Okay, imagine that you don't want to talk about a certain subject, so you raise every pedantic objection you possibly can. Like, let's say for whatever reason you hate it when people talk about America's obesity crisis, so whenever it comes up and people start discussing a societal problem with phrases like "Americans are fatter than they were in 1979", you could go  "Excuse me, not every single American is fat, and there are probably people alive today who are skinnier than they were in 1979, so please stop generalizing because what you're saying doesn't apply to every single person in America."
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Jun 22, 2014 21:41
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A Buttery Pastry posted:the conceptual possibility of anti-white racism? Hahaha, this is exactly the point. Frankly I'm concerned that nobody has addressed the serious issue discrimination by dwarves against able bodied white men. Why, I was denied a position in a local Micro Championship Wrestling league just this week!
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Jun 22, 2014 21:59
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VitalSigns posted:Okay, imagine that you don't want to talk about a certain subject, so you raise every pedantic objection you possibly can. Now I think I understand, he's saying "ah ha, whites are so powerful? You must be saying we're mythically powerful beings." As if the power of Rockefellers rubs off on Dog the Bounty Hunter or something.
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Jun 22, 2014 22:05
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SedanChair posted:Now I think I understand, he's saying "ah ha, whites are so powerful? You must be saying we're mythically powerful beings." As if the power of Rockefellers rubs off on Dog the Bounty Hunter or something. Yes. He's taking "discrimination against white people is so rare and powerless in 2014 America that it's not worth bringing up and just distracts from actual issues" and pretending he thinks you mean "Whites are Gods among men and cannot be harmed by puny dark-skinned untermenschen." Because you're the real racist, you see.
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Jun 22, 2014 22:19
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VitalSigns posted:Okay, imagine that you don't want to talk about a certain subject, so you raise every pedantic objection you possibly can. Perfect pedagogical strategy for SudanChair. Ogmius815 fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Jun 22, 2014 |
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Jun 22, 2014 22:56
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If you want to know why I was arguing it's mostly because I'm really pedantic and I hate seeing people make generalizations. I also think that if you're going to be crusading against discrimination that you should avoid making generalizations because it can make you look hypocritical and that can cause people to dismiss what you have to say out of hand without examining it.
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Jun 22, 2014 22:57
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AVeryLargeRadish posted:If you want to know why I was arguing it's mostly because I'm really pedantic and I hate seeing people make generalizations. I also think that if you're going to be crusading against discrimination that you should avoid making generalizations because it can make you look hypocritical and that can cause people to dismiss what you have to say out of hand without examining it. Everyone contributes in minor ways, even subconsciously, because we were born and raised in a racist, sexist, homophobic society and those prejudices are drilled into us by our culture before we can even think. Part of the conversation about bigotry is that it's not a black-and-white line (heh) like either you're a full-on Grand Wizard of the KKK or you're 100% not-racist. There have been studies done where identical resumes get significantly higher call-back ratios depending on whether the name sounds stereotypically white or African American. Everybody is racist to some degree and we can't fight it if we don't acknowledge that it exists. Anyone who "would have been on my side" if only I'd not generalized and I'd qualified everything with "but it's possible that somewhere some white person may have never contributed to this system", would not actually have been on my side.
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Jun 22, 2014 23:06
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VitalSigns posted:Yes. He's taking "discrimination against white people is so rare and powerless in 2014 America that it's not worth bringing up and just distracts from actual issues" and pretending he thinks you mean "Whites are Gods among men and cannot be harmed by puny dark-skinned untermenschen." Because you're the real racist, you see. That doesn't mean white people aren't consciously or unconsciously a part of the racist system, because they are. What I'm saying is that minorities can be as well, if the specific conditions of the locales or institutions they're part of allow it, such as if they're mostly controlled by minorities themselves. All of which of course does, as we have established, still operate within the larger structure created by white people. In fact, you can probably make the argument that this is a pretty drat natural reaction to living in a society structured this way. *Tied up into a greater historical narrative of European exploitation as a special historical sin.
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Jun 22, 2014 23:17
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Nobody is saying that it's cosmically impossible for anyone other than white people to be racist. You're making things up to prove some maximally pedantic point about...something. I don't even know.
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Jun 22, 2014 23:27
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Ogmius815 posted:Perfect pedagogical strategy for SudanChair. Do you have any disagreements with me in the context of this thread? If so, please lay them out. AVeryLargeRadish posted:If you want to know why I was arguing it's mostly because I'm really pedantic and I hate seeing people make generalizations. I also think that if you're going to be crusading against discrimination that you should avoid making generalizations because it can make you look hypocritical and that can cause people to dismiss what you have to say out of hand without examining it. Nobody cares about those people, they are predisposed to dismiss anything that isn't praise of them just for being alive and white. woke wedding drone fucked around with this message at 23:33 on Jun 22, 2014 |
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Jun 22, 2014 23:30
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VitalSigns posted:Everyone contributes in minor ways, even subconsciously, because we were born and raised in a racist, sexist, homophobic society and those prejudices are drilled into us by our culture before we can even think. Part of the conversation about bigotry is that it's not a black-and-white line (heh) like either you're a full-on Grand Wizard of the KKK or you're 100% not-racist. There have been studies done where identical resumes get significantly higher call-back ratios depending on whether the name sounds stereotypically white or African American. Everybody is racist to some degree and we can't fight it if we don't acknowledge that it exists. Yeah, I know all that. The fact that unconscious racism exists is a big part of why I think that if you're going to make arguments against discrimination you should be extremely careful to not make any arbitrary generalizations yourself. I think that applies even more so when you are talking to strangers or using a semi-anonymous medium like an internet forum because your argument becomes its' own context and if people see that context as "Racism is bad because [good arguments] but gently caress those white people, fuckin' racists right?" they are going to doubt or dismiss your good arguments because of the hypocrisy of the second statement. VitalSigns posted:Anyone who "would have been on my side" if only I'd not generalized and I'd qualified everything with "but it's possible that somewhere some white person may have never contributed to this system", would not actually have been on my side. I disagree. People can dismiss things out of hand pretty easily at the slightest hint of hypocrisy, especially if your argument makes them feel uncomfortable or guilty. Is it really so difficult to tread on eggshells when making these arguments? Is it not worth treading with great care if it might convince someone or even just chip away at their unjust beliefs so that one day they might see the error of their ways?
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Jun 22, 2014 23:57
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bango skank posted:That's because the only point anyone in this thread is trying to make is "White people, BAD!" Nope.
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Jun 22, 2014 23:57
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VitalSigns posted:Nobody is saying that it's cosmically impossible for anyone other than white people to be racist. And before anyone says it, just because I compared the way of arguing does not mean I think the substance behind it is equivalent. VitalSigns posted:You're making things up to prove some maximally pedantic point about...something. I don't even know. Maybe I've misunderstood people, and they actually agree with that? It wouldn't be the first time people misunderstand each other based on their usual experiences with the topic, and I'm certainly not going to claim I have perfect understanding of other people's thoughts. A Buttery Pastry fucked around with this message at 00:09 on Jun 23, 2014 |
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Jun 23, 2014 00:06
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I promise I'll be a good communist. I will! Just stop...stop talking about racism 
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Jun 23, 2014 00:33
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