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"Alpha striking" and "nova" is essentially what 4E combat is about. Many dailies are encounter-long, meaning that you want to pop them immediately. Others are situational dailies that rely on certain factors falling into place. The third class are just dailies that deal extra dice of damage. Escalation dice, one daily/encounter and what have you are an interesting cool idea, but in 4E they actually limit your tactics and decidedly favor certain classes and builds. Some builds don't rely on dailies at all. Name Change fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Jun 28, 2014 |
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Jun 28, 2014 21:56
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:"Alpha striking" and "nova" is essentially what 4E combat is about. Many dailies are encounter-long, meaning that you want to pop them immediately. Others are situational dailies that rely on certain factors falling into place. The third class are just dailies that deal extra dice of damage. How do you figure?
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Jun 28, 2014 22:03
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:"Alpha striking" and "nova" is essentially what 4E combat is about. Many dailies are encounter-long, meaning that you want to pop them immediately. Others are situational dailies that rely on certain factors falling into place. The third class are just dailies that deal extra dice of damage. I don't like the way 4e assumes you'll have roughly four encounters per extended rest and would like to change it so the number of encounters per extended rest is more flexible. How would I best accomplish this?
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Jun 28, 2014 22:04
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Gort posted:I don't like the way 4e assumes you'll have roughly four encounters per extended rest and would like to change it so the number of encounters per extended rest is more flexible. How would I best accomplish this? Give everyone Recharge Points either equal to, or with some relation to, their main stat or their healing surge value. Allow them to spend these points to automatically recover daily attack powers during short rests.
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Jun 28, 2014 22:11
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S.J. posted:Give everyone Recharge Points either equal to, or with some relation to, their main stat or their healing surge value. Allow them to spend these points to automatically recover daily attack powers during short rests. I would like a solution that prevents someone from using the same daily each encounter.
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Jun 28, 2014 22:30
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Use another system e: not trying to be glib or dismissive, but a lot of those things are just kind of core to the mechanics of 4e.You can adjust some of them substantially (like throwing out "rests" altogether and going for the Lair Assault approach) or modify a bunch of them slightly, but as people have pointed out, there can be a lot of unintended consequences. Honestly, it sounds like you mostly have a problem with one particular power/character(/player?) in particular, so maybe warping the rules around them isn't the best solution. Hubis fucked around with this message at 22:39 on Jun 28, 2014 |
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Jun 28, 2014 22:34
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That campaign ended a year ago or more so it's not the specific power or some kind of passive-aggressive complaining about my players - I'm just using it as an example of powers that last an entire encounter and would unbalance the game if you were able to use it at the start of every single encounter. There are probably Warden stances or Barbarian rages that you wouldn't want to see being used every single encounter as well, so I don't think allowing them to do so would be a good solution to my problem. And I haven't actually seen anyone point out any unintended consequences yet, I'd love to hear some.
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Jun 28, 2014 22:46
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palecur posted:How do you figure? What are you asking me to elaborate on?
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Jun 28, 2014 22:47
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:What are you asking me to elaborate on? I didn't really get what point you were making either to be honest. Could you rephrase? Edit: Actually, having re-read it, I guess I get your point - removing the choice to nova or not nova removes a tactical choice from the players. I suppose that's a valid point to a degree. I think I'll have to playtest the house-rules and see how they turn out, might be the trade-off is worth it. Gort fucked around with this message at 23:00 on Jun 28, 2014 |
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Jun 28, 2014 22:50
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Gort posted:I didn't really get what point you were making either to be honest. Could you rephrase? Let's consider three house rules that have been tossed around in discussion here recently. 1. Escalation dice (you can use dailies that are x powerful when the number reaches x) do little but hobble certain characters in 4E. 4E isn't designed around this mechanic being usable. Let's say the escalation level of a daily corresponds to what level you earn the daily at. Sometimes your most basic dailies are your most important. Sometimes you have a character that makes very little use of dailies (such as a character built around exploiting certain at-will powers). Sometimes your effectiveness relies greatly on being able to do a certain daily at the beginning of combat, or at exactly the right time. All the escalation system is doing in these cases (which are just three off the top of my head, there's likely many more issues) is arbitrarily crippling certain builds and making other builds much more favorable. Have your enemies in the perfect position for your daily? Sorry, the battle isn't dramatic enough for you to do that yet. This also as a side effect makes combat longer in a system where it's too long already. 2. One daily/encounter does nothing but greatly limit my options as a player. If I want or need to front-load an encounter with several dailies, I'm crippled. If I use the wrong daily (for any number of reasons that I can't foresee), I'm crippled. If my daily misses, I'm crippled. If my character is built around his dailies, I hate this system. If my character is built around his at-wills, the system gives me an arbitrarily unfair play advantage compared to the former. 3. Treating all dailies as encounters means that dailies are greatly favored when picking utility powers. In most battles a character will open the battle with pretty much the same combo, and there are certain extremely powerful dailies (such as those that alter everyone's initiative, give extremely good resist all, or permanently debuff damage) which will often make combat play out the same way almost each time. Of course you re-balance combat around the fact that everyone always has a full magazine. This will tend to make every encounter into high-stakes rocket tag where one person having unlucky rolls or being caught badly out of position will cause an avalanche to fall on them. Again, it will also inevitably make combat longer in a system where it's already too long. At best, I can see this rule being appealing to hardcore players who are looking for a different experience and don't care about anything at all outside of combat, but that's about it. TL:DR: 4E is based around resource management and using the right powers at the most opportune time for the most dramatic effect. Instituting house rules like these will break the game. Play a different system if this is bothering you. Name Change fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Jun 28, 2014 |
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Jun 28, 2014 23:15
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palecur posted:What about adopting the 13A recharge mechanic? Why? Okay, just to clarify everyone's point here, there are generally two main flavors of problem with 4e combat. 1) Players tend to hoard resources like daily powers until they're put in a position to use it or lose it. This tends to lead to situations where players will not spend daily powers until the last fight of the day; given the power of dailies, this also often trivializes that last fight as players burn through the rest of their resources like they're drunk. Given that the last fight is often the climactic moment of a given adventure - the cackling wizard in his tower, the dragon in his lair, whatever - this can lead to cases of anticlimax where the fight against the minions was considerably harder than the fight against the boss. 2) Fights in general often have some degree of 'alpha striking' - when you can press the DELETE button on a monster or two before they get to act, you significantly lower the threat level of any given fight. This, in addition to the 'players having a boatload of dailies for the last fight', often results in it feeling somewhat unsatisfying rather than a difficult but fun fight. The design of D20 games in general is riddled with this, since there's no real player incentive not to hit your best move right off the bat. 13th Age has two solutions for these problems, one for each. Their daily powers will sometimes recharge after battle, which encourages you to spend them early on in the day and then maybe extract more uses out of them, and the Escalation Die plus the higher baseline defenses for 13th Age monsters means that you're often more likely to connect with powers if you sit on them for a turn or two. That's not even factoring in some powers which explicitly won't work unless the Escalation Die is at a certain value or higher. For the first problem, I think the simplest solution by far is to give the players incentive to spend those points, because otherwise they will lose the ability to spend them all; limiting players to one daily attack power (and one daily utility power) will, at a bare minimum, result in players spending their daily powers on the last three fights or so, rather than saving them all for the last encounter. Recharge powers can do this too, but that will result in more powers being used over the day - not the end of the world, but it means you'll probably have to adjust the encounter difficulty upwards somewhat, and it's a somewhat more complex solution. The one-power-per-fight method also means you don't need to handle much, if any, intrasession bookkeeping if you ended without taking an extended rest. For the second problem, something like the Escalation Die is a pretty neat solution, although it's worth mentioning that what it boils down to in practice is "players miss more on their first and second turn". Or just accept it and roll with it, I think it's much less of an issue than the boatload of dailies is. One daily attack power per fight is simple and it works, so v0v. E: quote:2. One daily/encounter does nothing but greatly limit my options as a player. If I want or need to front-load an encounter with several dailies, I'm crippled. If I use the wrong daily (for any number of reasons that I can't foresee), I'm crippled. If my daily misses, I'm crippled. If my character is built around his dailies, I hate this system. If my character is built around his at-wills, the system gives me an arbitrarily unfair play advantage compared to the former. One action point/encounter does the same thing, but people rarely have too much of an issue with it. The point, or premise, of one daily per fight is that players dumping "multiple dailies" into an encounter, especially multiple players, means it has usually ceased to be an encounter to any meaningful degree; this, plus the fact that players like to hug their resources and never, ever spend them ("the reason why you end every RPG with 800 Potions in your backpack you've never used") means one fight of the day is usually shitcanned for no great reason. And man, what character is 'built around dailies' to that degree, where only spending one per fight instead of two would represent a significant nerf? There are characters built around at-wills, like the martial E-classes, but "giving them an arbitrarily unfair play advantage" against classes with dailies is not exactly something that strikes me as a terrible idea given how shittily those classes scale. RPZip fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Jun 28, 2014 |
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Jun 28, 2014 23:18
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That is a good point - if you make it one daily per encounter then people are never going to pick the daily utilities, they'll pick encounter utilities instead. Maybe I'll modify my house rules so it's one daily utility and one daily attack per encounter. That might lead to you engineering your character so that it only has one daily utility which is then effectively an encounter power, though.
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Jun 29, 2014 01:22
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Gort posted:I don't like the way 4e assumes you'll have roughly four encounters per extended rest and would like to change it so the number of encounters per extended rest is more flexible. How would I best accomplish this? We got rid of the "adventuring day" in my group by houseruling that instead of gaining an action point at a milestone, you had the option to regain a spent daily instead.
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Jun 29, 2014 02:49
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I can't think of any build that relies on its dailies so much that it would be "crippled" because it didn't use the perfectly optimal one for the situation.
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Jun 29, 2014 03:14
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2 things: I am a loving idiot trying to run a 4th ed Darksun game. any tips are appreaciated. Also I am wondering which of the melee classes are going ot be the most battlefield mobile? I love the idea of running from enemy to enemy and stabbing them or literally getting the killing blow.
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Jun 29, 2014 06:53
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The difference is that one AP/encounter doesn't actively clamp down on potential power synergy like one daily/encounter can, even putting the issue with attack vs utility dailies aside. It's uncomfortable for classes that have a number of long-duration tactic-shaping daily powers, like Avengers, Barbarians, Monks, Wardens, Vestige Warlocks, and the odd Summoner Wizard. Hell, it actually breaks a class feature in the Barbarian's Rage Strike. Not that anyone actually uses Rage Strike, but still. I'm not really comfortable with the idea because I don't think it's a reliable solution to anything. Some classes get a lot out of their daily bombs, some just get fragments of more damage, some already have mutually exclusive dailies. Encounter design can already fix the worst excesses, and if every encounter is dangerous, there's already an opportunity cost to hoarding.
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Jun 29, 2014 08:10
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AXE COP posted:I can't think of any build that relies on its dailies so much that it would be "crippled" because it didn't use the perfectly optimal one for the situation. -Character puts his daily zone in the wrong place -Lay on Hands/Ardent Vow and barbarians are completely broken by this proposed system -Most leaders have emergency healing daily utilities (to help counteract the game's increasing swinginess by tier) that now can't be used if you did anything else -Characters that used their utility slots to pick up dailies are outright hosed by this In any case, it's not fair to put players in the position that they have to make a blind guess as to what daily would be most useful where--guessing here boils down to wondering if the DM is going to surprise you with some element to the encounter that you can't possibly predict, and then hoping that the dice rolls break your way and you don't need to address any emergencies. And again, it makes no sense to penalize players even harder when their daily misses. It falls to someone to demonstrate why one daily per encounter actually improves play, instead of the lofty achievement of not really gimping it that bad. In a hard-rated encounter it's just unrealistically harsh to limit characters to one daily. It also gets worse and worse for players as you advance in tier and players have more daily powers to not use--you'll start seeing players run out of healing surges while they still have plenty of the dailies left that could have preserved them, and seeing players placed into ridiculous positions. "Oh, you have an epic destiny resurrection power? Well I see that you used a level 2 utility power during this fight, so gently caress you." The wonky layout of the 4E adventuring day, which annoys a lot of players, myself included, isn't really solved by this proposed rule. The resource management system is hard-coded into how everything is balanced and you have to address a lot more that is beyond the scope of a simple house rule. quote:And man, what character is 'built around dailies' to that degree, where only spending one per fight instead of two would represent a significant nerf? There are characters built around at-wills, like the martial E-classes, but "giving them an arbitrarily unfair play advantage" against classes with dailies is not exactly something that strikes me as a terrible idea given how shittily those classes scale. Most of the good at-will builds have little to do with Essentials and everything to do with charge spam (already over-supported as it is) and/or picking up feats that boost a particular at-will or MBAs in general (other than twin strike and frostcheese, charge spam is the best way to pile on DPR). Many, many feats do this, and how you choose to support and use your at-wills is a huge part of the game. Name Change fucked around with this message at 08:20 on Jun 29, 2014 |
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Jun 29, 2014 08:17
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:-Lay on Hands/Ardent Vow and barbarians are completely broken by this proposed system I'm pretty sure neither Lay on Hands nor Ardent Vow are daily attack powers, although I'd exclude them from any sort of daily utility power shenanigans as well, since they don't really fit either model being a mostly-legacy mechanic. Actually I'm just going to skip the next few ones since I think they're missing an essential issue, namely that it's daily attack powers that would be restricted - those are the ones you pick up at levels 1, 5 and 9, with a supplement at level 20 from your paragon path and a replacement or two along the way as well. It probably makes sense to just not restrict daily utility powers, since they tend to be much smaller in scope, even though that still often leads to player hoarding until they can just vomit them all out. It's a solution to an observed issue, namely that players are disinclined to spend limited resources unless not doing so will result in losing them. Putting a cap on the number of dailies you can bust out in one fight is that incentive, and it's by far the simplest one. quote:Also I am wondering which of the melee classes are going ot be the most battlefield mobile? I love the idea of running from enemy to enemy and stabbing them or literally getting the killing blow. Rogue or Monk, although Monk tends to deal more with clumps of enemies than isolated ones.
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Jun 29, 2014 10:02
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Placing a daily zone in the wrong place is not going to cripple a character. He's going to lose resources, sure, but that is a mistake that he should probably feel the effects of. Besides, how many daily attacks are going to do *nothing at all* just because their zone was misplaced? At the very least you'll probably pop a few minions, ding some standards, or buff some allies, even if it's only for one turn. As RPZip mentioned the other problems only apply if you're also restricting daily utilities which you shouldn't do imo. Herr Tog posted:Also I am wondering which of the melee classes are going ot be the most battlefield mobile? I love the idea of running from enemy to enemy and stabbing them or literally getting the killing blow. Rogues and Monks are the most mobile Strikers. Swordmages and Battleminds are probably the most mobile defenders, with the latter having an entire build and paragon path centred around running really fast and teleporting. Eladrin Knights can also hold their own with teleports. I'm not sure if there are any particularly mobile Leaders or Controllers. Wizards have a few utilities for flying and stuff like that. Sorcerers can mix it up in melee with some builds and they get a variety of mobility utilities too. AXE COP fucked around with this message at 14:27 on Jun 29, 2014 |
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Jun 29, 2014 14:24
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I'd say Warlocks are probably the most mobile strikers actually, if they're build for it. Eldritch Sidestep is that good a power.
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Jun 29, 2014 14:40
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AXE COP posted:I'm not sure if there are any particularly mobile Leaders or Controllers. Wizards have a few utilities for flying and stuff like that. Sorcerers can mix it up in melee with some builds and they get a variety of mobility utilities too. Isn't there a Bard build out there that isn't so much focused on its own maneuverability, but grants a number of teleports to party members?
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Jun 29, 2014 15:29
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Several. Bard taxis. Lots of leaders do great mobility, just usually for the rest of the party. Druids are the most mobile controllers, for a given value of controller...
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Jun 29, 2014 15:37
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Dr Cheeto posted:Isn't there a Bard build out there that isn't so much focused on its own maneuverability, but grants a number of teleports to party members? There's a feat called Walk Among the Fey (iirc) that turns all bard's slides into teleports, which has great potential for ally teleportation as well as enemy. I'm currently running one that's MCed warlock to pick up Ethereal Sidestep and the Evermeet Warlock PP, but there's a wide variety of ways to take advantage of it.
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Jun 29, 2014 16:15
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The Belgian posted:The level 4 black dragon is great. I was using him as a 'winged demon' with my level 3 players. They seemed to be doing p well against it although we had to end the session before the encounter was over.
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Jun 29, 2014 16:52
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I guess all this arguing about how to restrict dailies so they don't break encounters/force players to use them just seems like a lot of work and artificial restriction just because you don't want to tell characters they can't have an extended rest.
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Jun 29, 2014 17:09
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:What are you asking me to elaborate on? The entire position, really, but start with quote:in 4E they actually limit your tactics and decidedly favor certain classes and builds. since that's the normative claim. edit: specifically addressing the recharge mechanic concept, since you've already spoken about the escalation-die, one-daily-per-fight, and daily-as-encounter schemes. palecur fucked around with this message at 18:09 on Jun 29, 2014 |
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Jun 29, 2014 18:00
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Hubis posted:I guess all this arguing about how to restrict dailies so they don't break encounters/force players to use them just seems like a lot of work and artificial restriction just because you don't want to tell characters they can't have an extended rest. Thing is, though, if players have novaed all their surges and power away in the first fight or two, it's logical that they'd want to rest and get them back. At that point you can either: 1) Make up a reason they can't stop, have them take on the next encounter without surges and dailies and probably die 2) Let them rest and continue novaing in the later encounters 1 is obviously bad because it sucks to lose and the players will probably blame you for putting restrictions on their resting, and 2 means that the encounters will be walkovers unless you pump up their level, which means you end up with swingy encounters that lead to deaths. The clear intent of the resting rules is that players ration out their dailies and surges across the "adventuring day", but if a party decides to nova there's not a lot to stop 'em without DM intervention, and sometimes it doesn't make any sense to have four encounters in an adventuring day. So the obvious solution is to give players X amount of resources per encounter rather than 4X amount of resources per day. It's just a question of finding the way that accomplishes that best while requiring the fewest rule changes.
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Jun 29, 2014 18:29
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Gort posted:Thing is, though, if players have novaed all their surges and power away in the first fight or two, it's logical that they'd want to rest and get them back. At that point you can either: Is 3) Make up a reason they can't stop, have them take on the next encounter, which is tuned to be appropriately challenging for a party low on surges and dailies off the table for some reason I'm not getting? 4E encounter and monster design is remarkably tunable.
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Jun 29, 2014 19:03
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I guess that's an option, but a savvy player will note the decreased difficulty and realise there's no downside to novaing since the DM will make the following encounters easier, which doesn't resolve the original problem. Plus sometimes there isn't a good reason to not stop, and it puts a burden on the DM to come up with one in any case. Sometimes I want an adventure with a single encounter.
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Jun 29, 2014 19:18
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Then... accept that nova-ing is a thing that happens, and build your encounters so that it's not a problem. Do the players find it to be a problem?
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Jun 29, 2014 19:27
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thespaceinvader posted:Then... accept that nova-ing is a thing that happens, You have a remarkably defeatist attitude towards rules problems. quote:and build your encounters so that it's not a problem. How do you suggest I build my encounters so that it's not a problem? Raising encounter level leads to a swingier game since characters are not supposed to be fighting encounters significantly higher level than them. quote:Do the players find it to be a problem? Yes.
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Jun 29, 2014 19:33
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Thanks for the help on the class thing guys~! also wtf is novaing?
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Jun 29, 2014 19:34
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Herr Tog posted:Thanks for the help on the class thing guys~! also wtf is novaing? Using all your dailies and/or a high proportion of your healing surges in a single encounter.
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Jun 29, 2014 19:35
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Gort posted:How do you suggest I build my encounters so that it's not a problem? Raising encounter level leads to a swingier game since characters are not supposed to be fighting encounters significantly higher level than them. Multiple waves, more monsters of lower levels. Make a fight that's effectively 3 fights rolled into one, with a smattering of encounter power recharging late on, you can work something so that one encounter is the whole of a day's resources. But 4e is a game designed around a certain expectation of the length of time between long rests. It's baked into pretty much every aspect of the power recharging and healing structure. Trying to unbake it and change it is not going to be remotely easy, to the point where I'd look at using a different system rather than trying to hack the current one. Or just make everyone play e-martial classes.
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Jun 29, 2014 19:44
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thespaceinvader posted:I'd look at using a different system rather than trying to hack the current one. For real though Gort, just check out Gamma World for a version of 4e that's built around going from encounter-to-encounter rather than the adventuring day.
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Jun 29, 2014 20:01
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thespaceinvader posted:Multiple waves, more monsters of lower levels. Make a fight that's effectively 3 fights rolled into one, with a smattering of encounter power recharging late on, you can work something so that one encounter is the whole of a day's resources. This is what I like doing~!
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Jun 29, 2014 20:03
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Herr Tog posted:Thanks for the help on the class thing guys~! also wtf is novaing? The "Nova" refers to dumping all of your resources into a single turn in order to basically break an encounter as soon as possible. Charop is usually centered around making your nova as insane as possible so that you can do things like "kill an entire encounter with one action point" or "guarantee the death of one enemy, no matter what their health, status effects or location are".
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Jun 29, 2014 20:11
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Thing is though, one 4e fight is not particularly short. Putting three together is going to lead to player combat-burn-out. It's the reason why the published 4e adventures are so bad - they're just combat combat combat. For real, this doesn't look so hard. I'll try the house rules I'm mulling over and let you know how it goes. I'll just post them here again so we're all on the same page: * PCs heal all HP damage at the end of an encounter. (IE: During a short rest) * PCs quarter their number of healing surges, rounding down. This is their number of surges per encounter. The Durable feat and similar healing surge-increasing effects give +1 surge per encounter. * PCs may use one daily attack power per encounter. Daily attack powers recharge at the end of a session, or when you have no daily attack powers remaining at the end of an encounter. * PCs reduced to 0 HP take an injury - a persistent debuff related to the damage that reduced them to 0 HP. (EG: Sharp damage might cause vulnerability, cold damage might reduce speed, crushing damage might reduce Will defense, and so on) Injuries last until the end of a session. Generic Octopus posted:For real though Gort, just check out Gamma World for a version of 4e that's built around going from encounter-to-encounter rather than the adventuring day. I own Gamma World, my group (including myself) didn't like it much. I'll dig the rules out and see if there's something that can be cannibalised.
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Jun 29, 2014 20:13
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Reasons Gamma World is good: -Does away with the adventuring day -Does away with loot treadmilling -Item/mutation system changes up things from fight to fight -Lessens (though does not eliminate) the importance of ability scores -Instead of the un-intuitive tier system, it has only 10 levels. Less is more here -You can randomly generate characters with little difficulty -Someone doesn't need to play a certain role to make the group cohesive--no more "we need someone to roll a defender/leader/striker" -Easier to learn than straight 4E Bad Things: -Really does nothing about 4E's excessive combat length -Weapon system is still needlessly complex -Not a huge amount of development for characters after level 6
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Jun 29, 2014 20:28
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Gort posted:Thing is, though, if players have novaed all their surges and power away in the first fight or two, it's logical that they'd want to rest and get them back. At that point you can either: Why do they have to die with 1? Why not let them run away and return to a repopulated dungeon or have them get captured and have to escape the repopulated dungeon? Either way, your campaign can continue, and your players will have learned the risks with blowing all their powers. There are tons of contexts you can create in which the players know beforehand that they won't be able to go one room at a time, nova-ing and resting. And you can always communicate with your players: "You sure you want to blow all your powers in the very first fight? There's a lot more dungeon to explore." It all comes down to adventure design. 4E is designed around 3-5 encounters, then a rest, so design the majority of your adventures with that in mind. Not every adventure needs follow that format. But when you break from it, consider how your players behave and create encounters accordingly. If you have an adventure where the players can rest after every fight, make the fights tougher. And don't worry too much if the players just blow through an encounter from time to time. They're the heroes. They're allowed to be frikking awesome.
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Jun 29, 2014 20:32
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