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Data Graham posted:I'm interested in knowing the source of this. Sounds like a good story, but it's not turning up a lot of hits. Shatner's "Star Trek Movie Memories," one of the early chapters.
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Jun 29, 2014 16:06
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If Obrien is the only enlisted crewman on the Enterprise, would that make him Chief of the Boat?
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Jun 29, 2014 16:25
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Even if he wasn't the only one, I think there's a decent chance he basically served that role, considering we never saw any other enlisted men invited to briefings. He definitely was that for DS9/the Defiant.
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Jun 29, 2014 18:14
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Cat Hatter posted:If Obrien is the only enlisted crewman on the Enterprise, would that make him Chief of the Boat? He wasn't, though; there's a Crewman Tarsas in The Drumhead, and Tarsas specifically says that he went to "the Academy's training program for enlisted personnel."
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Jun 29, 2014 21:22
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Having O'Brien be enlisted was the dumbest thing ever. He goes from transporter button pusher to Chief of Engineering somehow. When every other ship in Star Fleet has a lieutenant commander as chief of engineering.
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Jun 29, 2014 21:30
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Well, no, he's DS9's Chief of Operations. The issue is that Defiant doesn't have an actual crew, it's attached to DS9 and crewed by whomever they can pull off their duties. That's why Worf can live on it and not disturb anyone when he blares Klingon opera at 0300.
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Jun 29, 2014 21:50
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It's still a position that would be an officer position anywhere else in Star Fleet.
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Jun 29, 2014 21:52
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Blazing Ownager posted:I'll stand by it. 2001 has a lot of scenes that go on drastically too long uncut. Sometimes it's for artistic appeal and other times it's just absolutely excessive. You could probably cut about 10 minutes out of the movie, and honestly improve it's pacing drastically without losing anything of value, just by shaving a few seconds here and there. How dare you have opinions on 2001 outside of the hive mind! <  > Just kidding, I agree completely - it's a gorgeous movie, but a flawed one. The book was much more enjoyable for me, but even then I wasn't interested enough to seek out the sequels (which sound pretty dippy based on the summaries I've read).Bicyclops posted:I wouldn't. Its pacing issues are but one of many glaring flaws. It's an effects focused film that still manages to be ugly. It clings to the series that birthed it in all the wrong ways and departs from it in all the wrong ways; it apes an episode from the series while managing to cut out all of the interesting character work on Spock and Bones that make the show such a joy to watch. The way in which Shatner seizes control of Enterprise from the film-introduced, inexperienced captain feels forced and is a color-by-the-numbers Hollywood screenplay "Let's get the gang together" plot. It has plenty of yawn-worthy technobabble instead of actual, human interaction. But Bicylcops, is there anything Trekkier than unnecessary  ?
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Jun 29, 2014 21:57
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Cojawfee posted:It's still a position that would be an officer position anywhere else in Star Fleet. Would it, though? We don't really know. There's not a whole lot of starbase crews shown in Trek beyond DS9. So maybe it's pretty common for a highly-ranked enlisted to lead the operations staff on a starbase, especially a small one like that DS9. Sure, that gigantic Spacedock monstrosity in our solar system is operated by a Commander, but there's 3,000 engineers on his staff! There's only a couple hundred Starfleet personnel on DS9, which is commanded by an actual Commander.
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Jun 29, 2014 22:01
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It's clear from the rest of Star Trek that every position is filled by a lieutenant commander or higher. Unless you need an ensign to be the ship bitch.
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Jun 29, 2014 22:07
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The Franz Joseph Technical Manual and the officially published blueprints of the time made it clear that Starfleet was (at least in the 23rd century) made up of 90% ensigns and 10% other officers, with no enlisted whatsoever. Which is funny, because Enterprise has enlisted crewmembers.
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Jun 29, 2014 22:08
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Cojawfee posted:It's still a position that would be an officer position anywhere else in Star Fleet. "Chief of Operations" is a generic admin term at a lot of places for someone who monitors facilities imprints and handles a lot of paperwork, though. I know where I work, they're not considered senior staff and their official authority is fairly minimal, but because their work involves a wide breadth of stuff, they have to sit in on a lot of meetings with executive officers. It's kind of one step above "administrative assistant" or "executive assistant" and the position is typically filled by people who have been full time admins too long to still have "assistant" in their title but don't have the on-paper credentials to become Senior Staff, like O'Brien.
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Jun 29, 2014 22:15
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I remember that Worf was the usual CO for the Defiant, and he was a Lt. Commander. Mostly, I think the "no enlisted personnel, everyone's an officer" thing comes from Roddenberry having an inferiority complex about not being an officer when he was in the Navy.
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Jun 29, 2014 23:22
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I never, ever understood how starfleet takes in like 1 in 20 applicants per year. Did I just completely misunderstand that Wesley-Takes-The-Terror-Test episode or was that just retconned later? I can't imagine
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Jun 29, 2014 23:26
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That's like the commemorative air force where everyone is a colonel.
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Jun 29, 2014 23:26
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Cojawfee posted:That's like the commemorative air force where everyone is a colonel. Or like Star Trek Fan Clubs, where everyone is an admiral. Vice Admiral Ralph is on the phone, he'd like to know when your mom says you aren't grounded any more.
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Jun 29, 2014 23:42
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Hard Clumping posted:I never, ever understood how starfleet takes in like 1 in 20 applicants per year. Did I just completely misunderstand that Wesley-Takes-The-Terror-Test episode or was that just retconned later? I can't imagine Given how many people probably apply in different sectors I can believe the one in 20, and the test would probably be different every year. Maybe Broccoli got an easy one, or he was sponsored by an Admiral, you just know there are loopholes for family members of Admirals.
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Jun 29, 2014 23:46
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"Uh, my dad's an admiral" "Welcome aboard, captain!" It also depends on how RED SQUAD you are.
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Jun 29, 2014 23:48
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Vengeance of Pandas posted:Given how many people probably apply in different sectors I can believe the one in 20, and the test would probably be different every year. Maybe Broccoli got an easy one, or he was sponsored by an Admiral, you just know there are loopholes for family members of Admirals. Maybe he lucked out and showed up on a year nobody else did. Maybe back when he took the test there weren't so many dirty blood aliens who can't even breathe human, god-fearing oxygen clogging up the pip dispensers. RED SQUAD RED SQUAD RED SQUAD RED SQUAD RED SQUAD RED SQUAD RED SQUAD RED SQUAD RED SQUAD
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Jun 29, 2014 23:49
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My father was in Red Squad, Lieutenant. You sure you want to hold up a legacy applicant? Hmm? Yeah, that's what I thought.
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Jun 29, 2014 23:50
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Hard Clumping posted:pip dispensers
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Jun 29, 2014 23:58
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Apollodorus posted:Mostly, I think the "no enlisted personnel, everyone's an officer" thing comes from Roddenberry having an inferiority complex about not being an officer when he was in the Navy. Wikipedia says Roddenberry was a Captain (equivalent to a Navy Lt) in the Air Force during WW2 which would explain the all-officers thing, since I think the Air Force only lets officers be pilots. It doesn't explain why the rank structure in Starfleet mimics the Navy's though if he was in the Army Air Force (unless they changed the ranks around a bit when they became an independent branch in the 40s).
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Jun 30, 2014 00:00
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Space things tend to use navy ranks for space because they are in bigass ships with lots of people on them. Like ships.
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Jun 30, 2014 00:06
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Cojawfee posted:Space things tend to use navy ranks for space because they are in bigass ships with lots of people on them. Like ships. Except in Stargate, where the USAF was in charge of spaceships, and ground recon.
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Jun 30, 2014 00:13
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Join Starfleet! Take vacations on Risa, pretty much whenever! Who cares! Is the big bad captain saying you don't have shore leave? Just make up some sob story about your father's honor and you'll probably be reinstated upon your return! Join Starfleet today! Ensigns and enlisted crew get ALL the perks, such as: -Share cramped bunk beds with your fellow crewmen on a Galaxy Class Starship, which could really comfortably quarter more than ten times its crew compliment in their own luxury suites! -Reap the benefits of Existence!(Existence to be issued no more than thirty minutes before your ultimate fate is decided(probably Death)) -  /
Hard Clumping fucked around with this message at 00:19 on Jun 30, 2014 |
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Jun 30, 2014 00:16
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ST:ID was loving awesome and its detractors are bad people with bad opinions. Rather than give a detailed blow-by-blow of why you are all wrong, I'm just going to give a universal "nope" to everyone. In all seriousness though, ST:ID was amazing because of how visceral it was. The movie was charged with emotion; both Abrams and the actors did a great job selling those moments. And the overall aesthetic and visual variety in the movie was fantastic. We had the opportunity to see so many things - 23rd century Earth, Kronos, all the different costumes - all of which helped to cement the universe in which the movie resides. Old Trek was just so sterile by comparison. JJTrek may not have the deep characterization and storytelling of the old, but it makes up for it by showing the audience and letting them EXPERIENCE what the entire WORLD of Star Trek is like. Trek '09 was pretty sucky though, I mean it had some of the same good things that ID had but not enough to make up for the fact that the main plot point (Nero's revenge) made no sense no matter how much you contrived an explanation. Subyng fucked around with this message at 00:40 on Jun 30, 2014 |
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Jun 30, 2014 00:36
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Muniiiiiiiiiizzzzzzzz!
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Jun 30, 2014 00:56
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Gau posted:The Franz Joseph Technical Manual and the officially published blueprints of the time made it clear that Starfleet was (at least in the 23rd century) made up of 90% ensigns and 10% other officers, with no enlisted whatsoever. Which is funny, because Enterprise has enlisted crewmembers. Gene Roddenberry specifically said he didn't like the officer/enlisted divide, and decreed that it wasn't a thing in Starfleet. This was retconned by the writers in TNG season 4, and in fact there's a backstage reference sheet which has O'Brien initially listed as a Lieutenant, and later scratched out and made a CPO. So of course, because Enterprise was produced after TNG, it operated under the premises and assumptions laid down most recently - i.e. that whoops turns out Starfleet does have I think originally during production on The Cage, the idea was that there basically weren't even really ranks at all. Look at the sleeves; everyone's either got a single band, or nothing. I think one of the early TNG writer's bibles also mentions something about how ranks are supposed to not really be a big deal any more. Hard Clumping posted:I never, ever understood how starfleet takes in like 1 in 20 applicants per year. Did I just completely misunderstand that Wesley-Takes-The-Terror-Test episode or was that just retconned later? I can't imagine What, you think every test is perfect? I mean it was pretty clear that Barclay was considered an abnormally poor performer by his peers, so it's trivial to dismiss it as maybe the test coordinator was having an off day. Or maybe they read him completely wrong and failed to identify what really scared him. (Or maybe Barclay was just the best qualified dude in his region that year. Yikes.) Actually, it's a trick question. The "super intense, highly selective test regime" was a first season episode, and I'm certain that the writers basically almost automatically dismissed or ignored anything that happened back then anyway. I'm sure that during late TNG or DS9 the writers would have cheerfully said that the application process is much like the way it works "now" (i.e. the 90s). Cat Hatter posted:Wikipedia says Roddenberry was a Captain (equivalent to a Navy Lt) in the Air Force during WW2 which would explain the all-officers thing, since I think the Air Force only lets officers be pilots. It doesn't explain why the rank structure in Starfleet mimics the Navy's though if he was in the Army Air Force (unless they changed the ranks around a bit when they became an independent branch in the 40s). Because space opera tends to be more of a naval analogue than an air force analogue. Put another way, Kirk's not commanding a bomber crew (in space), he's commanding a cruiser (in space).
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Jun 30, 2014 01:15
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Until 2009, the US didn't fly any enlisted astronauts. I'm pretty sure there haven't actually been any, even after they started allowing enlisted applications. I'm pretty sure no one's astronaut corps draw from enlisted men.
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Jun 30, 2014 01:34
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:What, you think every test is perfect? I mean it was pretty clear that Barclay was considered an abnormally poor performer by his peers, so it's trivial to dismiss it as maybe the test coordinator was having an off day. Or maybe they read him completely wrong and failed to identify what really scared him. (Or maybe Barclay was just the best qualified dude in his region that year. Yikes.) Even past the fear test, just imagine Barclay doing those spatial reconstruction/mind teaser tests Wesley was doing. He'd fall apart. Maybe his fear test was something like "what if you found out the entire world around you was fake, just a simulation, and nothing actually mattered" like some admiral was an Ancient Earth telephile who watched the Twilight Zone and figured that'd be creepy and existential as hell, and when Barclay figured it out and just started humping his instructor the test graders said "This Kid's Got The Spark, He's Gonna Go Far" and "Look at his technique; he could be the next Riker" Hard Clumping fucked around with this message at 01:37 on Jun 30, 2014 |
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Jun 30, 2014 01:34
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Subyng posted:ST:ID was loving awesome and its detractors are bad people with bad opinions. Rather than give a detailed blow-by-blow of why you are all wrong, I'm just going to give a universal "nope" to everyone. Naw they're paint by numbers action blockbusters designed to appeal to as many people as possible while occasionally pandering to fanboys that don't even understand why they like what they like in order to sell them more nerd poo poo. That the characterization is less deep and the storytelling less rich now is a bad thing because the action that replaced it is boring videogame cutscenes with little emotional impact that wasn't lifted directly from previous movies, although this may or may not be better than watching TNG poo poo all over itself in cinematic form. All these films really have going for them is some solid casting, the best aspects of which are of course typically underused or ignored. Unfortunately none of these are problems specific or limited to the new Trek movies, so in conclusion we should stop giving Hollywood money until the industry implodes and everyone involved dies broke and consumed by remorse over a wasted life. TL;DR I'm laughing at the superior intellect
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Jun 30, 2014 01:46
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Have they ever really explored what happened on First Contact Day 2? So the Vulcans land and don't get a facefull of shotgun. What happened next? How did word get out? Did it just start raining Vulcans one day? What compelled the Vulcans to hang around and help lovely old humanity out?
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Jun 30, 2014 01:48
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Tighclops posted:TL;DR I'm laughing at the superior intellect 
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Jun 30, 2014 01:55
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Sash! posted:What compelled the Vulcans to hang around and help lovely old humanity out? We had just nearly destroyed ourselves in the atomic horror of la Troisieme Guerre du Monde but were trying to scrabble back and pushing forward out into the stars. (We'll ignore the Mad Max Fu Manchu court Q conjured up for now.) The Vulcans, too, had a violent history of civil war which nearly left them extinct. I think the idea was that they saw humanity as a species like they used to be, and wanted to help us grow into one like theirs. But we're stubborn and tenacious and basically told them "get hosed" and rode off into the galaxy to have sex with and/or kill everything we met.
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Jun 30, 2014 02:07
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Cojawfee posted:Space things tend to use navy ranks for space because they are in bigass ships with lots of people on them. Like ships. I fully agree with this but I think that might have something to do with how culturally important Star Trek was. I can't think of any pre Trek property that used the Navy in space (although I'm sure they exist and I'm about to hear an exhaustive list). Hell, Star Wars was based more on fighters and bombers and half the cast of Battlestar Galactica was the fighter squadron on an aircraft carrier (which would still technically be the Navy). They're lovely examples but the point is that if they'd really wanted to go the Stargate route and make everyone air force they could have and nobody would have thought it was weird because the space navy wasn't an established thing yet.
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Jun 30, 2014 02:10
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Hard Clumping posted:Even past the fear test, just imagine Barclay doing those spatial reconstruction/mind teaser tests Wesley was doing. He'd fall apart. If anything, I seriously bet that the tests and academia were exactly what Barclay excelled at. Even the high-pressure ones. Because it's just a test, right? I can easily buy the idea of someone who flew through Starfleet Academy with flying colors, and then got serious nerves when confronted with The Real Thing. Cat Hatter posted:I fully agree with this but I think that might have something to do with how culturally important Star Trek was. I can't think of any pre Trek property that used the Navy in space (although I'm sure they exist and I'm about to hear an exhaustive list). I don't have an exhaustive list for you, but Forbidden Planet basically had a space-navy crew.
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Jun 30, 2014 02:30
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People tend to discount how much TOS was basically Forbidden Planet on TV.
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Jun 30, 2014 02:36
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Forbidden Planet is loving awesome. Leslie Nielsen in a serious role as Captain Cockblock.
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Jun 30, 2014 02:37
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Hard Clumping posted:I never, ever understood how starfleet takes in like 1 in 20 applicants per year. Did I just completely misunderstand that Wesley-Takes-The-Terror-Test episode or was that just retconned later? I can't imagine Is the Academy Starfleet's only commissioning source? Maybe Barclay did Starfleet ROTC.
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Jun 30, 2014 02:40
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So I decided to finally give Star Trek Online a whirl and discovered that they've named Species 8472 the "Undine"  That's...different. I'm guessing this is canon? Really seems like the original ST time line has kind of gone to poo poo.
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