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If Transformers is some sort of propaganda for the new world order and military interventionism, then it is sort of unintentionally hilarious because the Autobots are basically bringing the wrath of the decepticons down on earth just by being there. This point is made pretty explicitly in part 2. I do see how the movies do sort of promote the military by having cool military porn in most of them. 4 didn't have quite as much as usual, but I have to admit I was very moved to see our boys fighting alongside the autobots during the Battle of Chicago in Dark of the Moon.
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Jun 29, 2014 22:14
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MisterBibs posted:Could you elaborate a bit on this one? I'm not seeing how the films have been presented as 'propaganda' for the Autobots, since by definition the series is going to be about the Good Autobots And Their Allies beating the Bad Cybertronians And Their Allies. In addition to presenting the Good Autobots vs the Bad Decepticons, the films are framed by narration by Optimus Prime. His ending dialogue in 3 especially stands out, a voiceover directly telling the audience the Autobots will never leave us. As far as the "official propaganda" thing, I thought it was simply a fact that the Chinese government wanted those scenes in the movie? I'm not claiming of course that the film itself is propaganda for the Chinese, just that I think it's funny that it contains some. Bulkiest Toaster posted:If Transformers is some sort of propaganda for the new world order and military interventionism, then it is sort of unintentionally hilarious because the Autobots are basically bringing the wrath of the decepticons down on earth just by being there. This point is made pretty explicitly in part 2. It's made explicitly by Kelsey Grammar in 4 as well, and it's clear that he's completely right (e: his methods are clearly not right), but the movie nevertheless presents the idea as self-evidently wrong. It reminds me of how Batman's enemies are constantly explicitly telling him he's painting a target on Gotham.
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Jun 29, 2014 22:28
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Age of Extinction was the only transformers movie i've actually watched, so I don't know about "overt propaganda for the Autobots/American neoliberal imperialism" or any of that CineD poo poo, but some things did stick in my craw throughout the movie: 1) How they make a big deal out of people-in-general not knowing the CIA are also killing autobots, then when the good guys actually get evidence of that, and the new-decepticons go on a murder rampage fighting the autobots, the movie then suddenly moves to China with no resolution whatsoever on this. 2) Steve Jobs is a bad guy, his promise of an early comfortable retirement for the CIA chief is literally the catalyst for this entire movie, he tortures autobots, is responsible for the new super decepticons, refers to them suplexing through people and their cars as "errors", traded Optimus Prime for a bomb, and is just a screamy dickhead. Then suddenly he's a good guy, saying funny one-liners, and has two (half-baked) love interests, what the hell? I know I'm not the only one in the cinema that was confused either, since every moment with him in it led to a lot of confused chatter among the seats. 3) Megatron's evil virus mosquitoes, maybe this was explained in previous films, just felt awkward being suddenly mentioned by the frankenstein midget robot. 4) The daughter had almost no good scenes, at all. Throughout the entire movie she's just a constant lead weight that does nothing except introduce some eyerollish daughter-father angst and slow down the protagonists. Here are her two most significant scenes in the movie: She pulls on a stick in a car that's misread as her boyfriends dick, and then she puts a hook on a sword. 5) The father being a failed inventor, maybe this will get wrapped up in the fifth Transformer movie, but it doesn't come into play at all outside of him fixing up Optimus Prime (which is shown as him making a half-sphere out of metal, and then getting in a chat about souls). He makes an offhand comment about needing to patent the swordgun he picks up for the rest of the movie, but we don't actually see him ending up successful or any better than he started out (maybe this is why they wussed out and made Steve Jobs good at the end? so he could go "lol i have money, you're getting your barn back, BFFs"? Because that was a pretty weak conclusion). 6) Chinese secretary suddenly being a kung-fu master, as well as some random guy in an elevator that Steve Jobs was annoying. Probably some other stuff as well, but those are the ones that stuck out the most to me immediately. I really really liked the first half of the movie, but then once they moved to china everything completely fell apart for me. It's like Bay was told he had to add a China segment to pander to that audience and he threw his hands in the air and went "what, the gently caress, ever dude" Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 23:08 on Jun 29, 2014 |
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Jun 29, 2014 22:59
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muscles like this? posted:She also almost is a love interest for Stanley Tucci until deciding nope, need that sweet Chinese money and instead its Bingbing Li. Dude Bingbing knows kung-fu, uses kung-fu to beats up the CIA goons, can ride a motorcycle like a pro, and runs an entire branch of the company. Or at least I think she is the head of the China branch.
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Jun 29, 2014 23:07
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Another theory about the deeper meaning of Age of Extinction. Remember the line of dialogue in the old theater about Hollywood only making remakes and sequels? Then think about how the bad humans in the film are basically reverse engineering the transformers technology and creating their own army of soulless copies for the masses. Michael Bay is being forced to make the same transformers movie over and over again by the hollywood machine. I think this movie is Michael Bay's cry for help.
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Jun 29, 2014 23:14
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They should have cut Mark Walhberg and his family and turned this movie into a buddy comedy with TJ Miller and Stanley Tucci as the leads.
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Jun 29, 2014 23:26
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Bulkiest Toaster posted:Another theory about the deeper meaning of Age of Extinction. Remember the line of dialogue in the old theater about Hollywood only making remakes and sequels? Then think about how the bad humans in the film are basically reverse engineering the transformers technology and creating their own army of soulless copies for the masses. Michael Bay is being forced to make the same transformers movie over and over again by the hollywood machine. I'm not sure how he's forced to do any of these films since he won't be returning for the next one. Unless wanting to swim in poo poo ton of money is "being forced."
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Jun 29, 2014 23:29
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It already made over 300Million worldwide. It's probably going to make that again over the July 4th weekend next week.  All hail
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Jun 29, 2014 23:29
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Neurolimal posted:1) How they make a big deal out of people-in-general not knowing the CIA are also killing autobots, then when the good guys actually get evidence of that, and the new-decepticons go on a murder rampage fighting the autobots, the movie then suddenly moves to China with no resolution whatsoever on this. I think that's a business-at-hand situation. Letting the world understand that KG's CIA Group is wiping out Autobots is lower on the priority list compared to Um, Megatron just turned on all the prototypes and made them ridiculously angry at everyone. Neurolimal posted:2) Steve Jobs is a bad guy, his promise of an early comfortable retirement for the CIA chief is literally the catalyst for this entire movie, he tortures autobots, is responsible for the new super decepticons, refers to them suplexing through people and their cars as "errors", traded Optimus Prime for a bomb, and is just a screamy dickhead. Then suddenly he's a good guy, saying funny one-liners, and has two (half-baked) love interests, what the hell? I know I'm not the only one in the cinema that was confused either, since every moment with him in it led to a lot of confused chatter among the seats. I'm not sure I agree with the way you're explaining things. KG's CIA Group does the murdering and torturing of the Good Autobots and trades Prime for the Seed. Bald Dude just gets the corpses that he melts down and studies. Hell, as we watch Rachet's head being melted down, Blonde Lady From Underworld refers to it as "melting down Decepticons", hinting that even within the company, most people don't know they are melting down dead Good Guys. His plan is to detonate the Seed in a friggin desert so that it doesn't cause any problems. His motivation for inventing human-developed Transformers felt sincere: "We can make you guys, we can do it better, and ours don't have sixty-five million years worth of enemies that come down to fight every three years!" And yeah, he makes Galvatron, but he's pressured into activating him in the first place by KG, gets understandably upset when he winds up not having control and people get killed because of it, and when he's fully informed that he's not in control, he orders it to remain deactivated. The dude isn't a completely clean guy, but I think the movie was trying to make it clear that the dude is the Lesser Bad Guy of the two. Neurolimal posted:3) Megatron's evil virus mosquitoes, maybe this was explained in previous films, just felt awkward being suddenly mentioned by the frankenstein midget robot. Given that he's made from New Transformium, I think that he just 'budded off' a few Megatron Flies and had them 'infect' the other prototypes.
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Jun 29, 2014 23:34
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MisterBibs posted:I think that's a business-at-hand situation. Letting the world understand that KG's CIA Group is wiping out Autobots is lower on the priority list compared to Um, Megatron just turned on all the prototypes and made them ridiculously angry at everyone. I thought that happened after they had already moved to China? Admittedly only seen the movie once and it's already a bit foggy. It just felt like there was a missing scene with people turning on the CIA group for what they were doing, since they made such a big deal about them having the recording of an autobot saying he is an autobot before being shot. Lord knows the movie had the time for it with a nearly 3 hour runtime. quote:Given that he's made from New Transformium, I think that he just 'budded off' a few Megatron Flies and had them 'infect' the other prototypes. The purpose behind them wasn't the confusing part, they just seemed super dumb and out of nowhere, "Megatron uploaded a virus that infected the other robots!" or "Megatron convinced the other robots to also rebel against the companies controls!" feel way more plausible and Transformer-ish/Megatron-y (to the extent that I know him, which is like 2 videogames and the cartoon movie) than "Megatron budded off evil robot flies that infected the other robot heads!". Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 23:44 on Jun 29, 2014 |
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Jun 29, 2014 23:40
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Galvatron's new body is awesome. I can't wait to see what crazy poo poo they do with it in the next film.
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Jun 29, 2014 23:47
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Neurolimal posted:It just felt like there was a missing scene with people turning on the CIA group for what they were doing There's no scene like that because until he gets killed, KG's character remains a powerful and respected character. KG says it himself early in the film - as long as he's around, the Yaegers going to any authority will only result in them being turned over to him and his group. People turning on the CIA comes after the Decepticons gently caress up China, after Bald Dude tells what he knows and KG being dead and unable to be backed by the full faith of the US Government, etc.
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Jun 29, 2014 23:59
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Bulkiest Toaster posted:I have to say I really felt the length in this one more than any of the other films. Half way through the China battle I was checking my watch, and dismayed that two hours had gone by without any dinobots. These movies really do not need to be this long. I agree with all of this. While Lockdown was a pretty great villain and there were some cool parts (Galvatron shoving Prime's sword into his chest engine thing and crunching it was a pretty "ohshit!" moment , the entire movie was just an overlong mess. I was fatigued of watching it by the time Marky Mark threw a dude off a building in China. The daughter and her boyfriend had no reason to be there, they waited TWO HOURS to introduce the Dinobots, the dialogue was so clunky it stretches belief, and all the side stories with Not-Steve Jobs, the nameless blonde lady from the intro, Fan BingBing, etc were just useless. Even by the low standards of the TF franchise, this was bad. It seems like they just stuffed in two or three movies worth of stuff in order to set up for the sequels, but did it so badly that I have no real desire to see any sequels. At least, not in the theaters at full ticket price. Edit: I thought about this thread during the movie, because the interpretation of Prime as an evil, ruthless motherfucker (to his enemies) was 100% spot-on and apparent in this one. They tried to assuage it a bit with the "humans betrayed the autobots for money" thing, but man, there's no real way to look at movie-incarnation Prime as any kind of heroic, morally right figure. He's just a killing machine. Mat Cauthon fucked around with this message at 00:05 on Jun 30, 2014 |
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Jun 30, 2014 00:01
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Rap Record Hoarder posted:man, there's no real way to look at movie-incarnation Prime as any kind of heroic, morally right figure. He's just a killing machine.  Sure you can. He's Optimus Prime. Being heroic and morally right are pretty much inseparably baked into the character, culturally and in-universe. Yeah, he's brutal to the Decepticons, but that isn't evidence of anything other than he's good at backing up his beliefs.
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Jun 30, 2014 00:40
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MisterBibs posted:
Bay!Prime kicked the AllSpark off Cybertron, denying energy to any future generation of Cybertronians and dooming his own planet because Megatron was winning/won the war.
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Jun 30, 2014 01:00
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Milky Moor posted:Bay!Prime kicked the AllSpark off Cybertron, denying energy to any future generation of Cybertronians and dooming his own planet because Megatron was winning/won the war. Yeeah, and that's pretty much a good thing, given that Megatron is... you know, Megatron.
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Jun 30, 2014 01:04
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Some people never grow past 80's cartoon show morality.
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Jun 30, 2014 01:05
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MisterBibs posted:Yeeah, and that's pretty much a good thing, given that Megatron is... you know, Megatron. A robot who's only crime is trying to bring back his dying race from extinction.
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Jun 30, 2014 01:05
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MisterBibs posted:I'm not sure I agree with the way you're explaining things. KG's CIA Group does the murdering and torturing of the Good Autobots and trades Prime for the Seed. Bald Dude just gets the corpses that he melts down and studies. Hell, as we watch Rachet's head being melted down, Blonde Lady From Underworld refers to it as "melting down Decepticons", hinting that even within the company, most people don't know they are melting down dead Good Guys. His plan is to detonate the Seed in a friggin desert so that it doesn't cause any problems. His motivation for inventing human-developed Transformers felt sincere: "We can make you guys, we can do it better, and ours don't have sixty-five million years worth of enemies that come down to fight every three years!" He also knowingly keeps that one small Autobot alive in a tiny cage, using him as slave labor and electrocuting him on a whim, in a room where his friends' corpses are being melted for scrap. No, he's not malicious, he's just a perfect embodiment of the Silicon Valley tech mindset: making up shiny new toys is all that matters, don't think too much about what we have to do to get there or how they're going to be used afterward. Sure he's upset about Galvatron going rogue, but in the best case scenario he's making weapons of war for a secret, unaccountable faction of the CIA. At one point he demos the potential of his discoveries by transforming a speaker into a handgun and pointing it at someone. e: You also blame things on KG's CIA group, but it's made clear that he controls that group via financial ties to Grammar. So if they're doing bad stuff it's at best another indicator that he doesn't care who has to get hurt for his own success. Mornacale fucked around with this message at 01:17 on Jun 30, 2014 |
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Jun 30, 2014 01:09
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MisterBibs posted:Yeeah, and that's pretty much a good thing, given that Megatron is... you know, Megatron. You seem to basically be advocating that propaganda = morality.
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Jun 30, 2014 01:10
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Mornacale posted:He also knowingly keeps that one small Autobot alive in a tiny cage, using him as slave labor and electrocuting him on a whim, in a room where his friends' corpses are being melted for scrap. No, he's not malicious, he's just a perfect embodiment of the Silicon Valley tech mindset: making up shiny new toys is all that matters, don't think too much about what we have to do to get there or how they're going to be used afterward. Sure he's upset about Galvatron going rogue, but in the best case scenario he's making weapons of war for a secret, unaccountable faction of the CIA. At one point he demos the potential of his discoveries by transforming a speaker into a handgun and pointing it at someone. He doesn't see the difference between, essentially, a toaster and an Autobot, even though - in the words of Adventure Time - an Autobot is different: "they're special... they've got aspirations." MisterBibs posted:Yeeah, and that's pretty much a good thing, given that Megatron is... you know, Megatron. And yet the people of Cybertron seemed to choose Megatron - who never would have had to come to Earth for the AllSpark and set off this entire chain of events if Optimus had've just let things go as they should have. Is this a reflection of the recent trend in TF media to show Megatron as a 'ends justify the means' social revolutionary and Prime as someone who defends a literal class and caste system? Maybe.
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Jun 30, 2014 01:20
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Found this comment on an i09 review of the film:quote:As a 29 year old guy who grew up on the Transformers I can't even watch these putrid films on TNT or FX when my wife is gone and all of the blinds are drawn. As soon as I watch more than a few moments of these movies my mind fills up with self-doubt about whether or not I am actually a grown rear end man instead of a 13 year old teenage boy in the body of an adult. Well done Mr. Bay, well done.
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Jun 30, 2014 01:28
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:A robot who's only crime is trying to bring back his dying race from extinction. Under his rule/leadership, which your audience needs about zero push to know is a Bad Thing. Doesn't matter if you watched no episodes or every episode of Transformers, your audience knows that if Megatron wants something, it's a really bad idea. Tighclops posted:Some people never grow past 80's cartoon show morality. It has nothing to do with the era of the original property. In the 90s, Beast Wars made its Megatron a bit more sympathetic. But ultimately you never were asked to believe anything but Megatron being the bad guy, because that's just the nature of the property. Mornacale posted:in the best case scenario he's making weapons of war for a secret, unaccountable faction of the CIA. At one point he demos the potential of his discoveries by transforming a speaker into a handgun and pointing it at someone. See, I didn't see the weapons as being for a secret, unaccountable faction of the CIA, but for the known-and-generally-held-accountable-in-theory United States military. People people will see them, and will accept their origins just as much as people accept that their devices were made on-the-cheap in foreign countries for pennies a day. As for his demonstration, I felt the fact that he kept his finger off the trigger was a subtle hint as to his viewpoint - it's just another thing it can become. A pill, a gun, a MLP doll, whatever. Lord Krangdar posted:You seem to basically be advocating that propaganda = morality. Optimus being right/good/hero and Megatron being wrong/evil/villain isn't propaganda. It's basic fact of the property, so much so that even someone who has seen zero episodes of the property goes into the movie knowing it. I asked before, I think: is there a character whose innate goodness/heroicness so ingrained in our society? Everyone knows who Optimus Prime is, that he's the Good Guy. Milky Moor posted:And yet the people of Cybertron seemed to choose Megatron And as all three films have shown, choosing against Optimus Prime is villainous and in Transformers, there's a character who is noble and heroic enough to stand against and defeat villainous characters.
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Jun 30, 2014 01:29
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Yeah, Prime is apart of the 1%. Megatron's only real crime was wanting equality. Isn't it the movie backstory that has Megatron start as a lowly gladiator robot?
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Jun 30, 2014 01:29
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MisterBibs posted:Optimus being right/good/hero and Megatron being wrong/evil/villain isn't propaganda. It's basic fact of the property, so much so that even someone who has seen zero episodes of the property goes into the movie knowing it. I asked before, I think: is there a character whose innate goodness/heroicness so ingrained in our society? Everyone knows who Optimus Prime is, that he's the Good Guy. Superman. Unfortunately, in the Bay films, Robot Superman is an insane megalomaniac. e: This would place the human antagonists in this film as Lex Luthor, which seems like a reasonably fair comparison, really.
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Jun 30, 2014 01:33
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MisterBibs posted:Optimus being right/good/hero and Megatron being wrong/evil/villain isn't propaganda. It's basic fact of the property, so much so that even someone who has seen zero episodes of the property goes into the movie knowing it. I asked before, I think: is there a character whose innate goodness/heroicness so ingrained in our society? Everyone knows who Optimus Prime is, that he's the Good Guy. Ok, but to me that attitude is exactly what the movies are satirizing by increasingly showing the characters in the hero/Good Guy slots acting more and more unheroic, unlikeable, and vile. How far can the supposed hero go before you question whether these "basic facts of the property" apply in this instance? What if we had the exact same movies but just the names and labels were all switched- Megatron for Optimus, Autobots for Decepticons? Lord Krangdar fucked around with this message at 01:38 on Jun 30, 2014 |
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Jun 30, 2014 01:34
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MisterBibs posted:Optimus being right/good/hero and Megatron being wrong/evil/villain isn't propaganda. It's basic fact of the property, so much so that even someone who has seen zero episodes of the property goes into the movie knowing it. I asked before, I think: is there a character whose innate goodness/heroicness so ingrained in our society? Everyone knows who Optimus Prime is, that he's the Good Guy. Forget about Megatron for a moment and just look at what Optimus Prime does, especially in contrast to what he says.
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Jun 30, 2014 01:36
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Lord Krangdar posted:Ok, but to me that attitude is exactly what the movies are satirizing by increasingly showing the characters in the hero/Good Guy slots acting more and more unheroic, unlikeable, and vile. How far can the supposed hero go before you question these "basic facts of the property" apply in this instance? Hell, what if we had the same movies but the species were switched. A faction of human terrorists stole the MacGuffin and now the Earth is dying. A legendary leader ventures to another planet to find it, where the terrorists convince the locals to fight to ensure the extinction of humanity. Which side is the good guys?
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Jun 30, 2014 01:38
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Optimus literally has a line in this film that directly states his position. To the Dinobots, he says something like: I give you your freedom, but disobey me and I'll kill you. Notice how this line applies to everything. Getting rid of the AllSpark, how he reacts to Megatron's promise of a truce providing he gets to be in charge, etc.
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Jun 30, 2014 01:38
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:Galvatron's new body is awesome. I can't wait to see what crazy poo poo they do with it in the next film. Same, but Hugo Weaving voicing him was better IMO.
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Jun 30, 2014 01:39
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MisterBibs posted:Optimus being right/good/hero and Megatron being wrong/evil/villain isn't propaganda. It's basic fact of the property, so much so that even someone who has seen zero episodes of the property goes into the movie knowing it. I asked before, I think: is there a character whose innate goodness/heroicness so ingrained in our society? Everyone knows who Optimus Prime is, that he's the Good Guy. Now imagine Optimus Prime is modern day America and look at he's actions in the film. You might believe he's good and pure and that there's no value in questioning he's action, but when you grow out of your toys and he reveals his true form you'll be horrified by what you see. Robots in disguise.
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Jun 30, 2014 01:39
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Milky Moor posted:Optimus literally has a line in this film that directly states his position. To the Dinobots, he says something like: I give you your freedom, but disobey me and I'll kill you. Is there a single scene of an Autobot in this film where one of them doesn't initiate or threaten violence?
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Jun 30, 2014 01:41
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PriorMarcus posted:Now imagine Optimus Prime is modern day America and look at he's actions in the film. That's the thing: it doesn't really matter when we're talking about fictional films, but people take the exact same approach to real life issues. America is The Good Guy because it's America, what more justification do you need? The American government can take all the same actions they condemn, because they're The Good Guys.
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Jun 30, 2014 01:44
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Bulkiest Toaster posted:Another theory about the deeper meaning of Age of Extinction. Remember the line of dialogue in the old theater about Hollywood only making remakes and sequels? Then think about how the bad humans in the film are basically reverse engineering the transformers technology and creating their own army of soulless copies for the masses. Michael Bay is being forced to make the same transformers movie over and over again by the hollywood machine. Right after that the man who says that points to a poster of Howard Hawks' El Dorado and says he likes that film (or it's a good film). El Dorado is widely considered to be a remake of Hawks' own Rio Bravo and he later made another similar movie, Rio Lobo. Bay is pointing out that remakes and sequels has always been a thing and many of them are movies people like. I think he's also questioning the fact that people like his Tranformers sequels more than his original movies like The Island and Pain & Gain. Hawks also directed Scarface, and probably directed The Thing From Another World. Both of them had remakes that are more popular and considered classics.
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Jun 30, 2014 01:54
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It's really quick, but I love when Lockdown mentions that the ship used to belong to Optimus, and Lockdown just commandeered it. What are the odds Optimus already had Grimlock and the other Dinobots hung upside-down in cages when Lockdown took command?
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Jun 30, 2014 01:54
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How many times does Optimus say "I'll kill you," or some variation of this?
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Jun 30, 2014 01:58
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Mornacale posted:Is there a single scene of an Autobot in this film where one of them doesn't initiate or threaten violence? Ratchet, but yeah other than that all the other Autobots come across as confrontational thugs. Hell, Hound's even modeled after that one Blackwater dude with the beard. sleepingbuddha posted:How many times does Optimus say "I'll kill you," or some variation of this? It's his first line in the movie, no less.
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Jun 30, 2014 02:01
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sleepingbuddha posted:How many times does Optimus say "I'll kill you," or some variation of this? Six-ish. Twice to Cade and his family, and once to a Robot in Hong Kong. He also says "he's going to die" regarding Kelsy Grammer, "I'll tear them apart!" before they invade the KSI factory, and "help me rescue my family or die" to Grimlock.
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Jun 30, 2014 02:02
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Mornacale posted:Superman. Exactly. And remember how silly the Superman-Is-Totes-Evil-Guise crowd was with Man Of Steel, and how they actually thought their  meant more than the inherent truism of Superman?Lord Krangdar posted:How far can the supposed hero go before you question whether these "basic facts of the property" apply in this instance? Given that the Autobots and their leader are undeniably good and heroic, I don't have to worry about them going 'too far' or attacking the wrong targets. This is a Transformers series, after all, not some watched-too-much-Watchmen series from the 90s. Maarak posted:Forget about Megatron for a moment and just look at what Optimus Prime does, especially in contrast to what he says. He beats the poo poo out of Decepticon and Decepticon-allied entities. I'm on board with those actions, since the targets are always and exclusively Decepticon and Decepticon-allied entities. I'm not sure what you're asking, here.
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Jun 30, 2014 02:04
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MisterBibs posted:Given that the Autobots and their leader are undeniably good and heroic, I don't have to worry about them going 'too far' or attacking the wrong targets. This is a Transformers series, after all, not some watched-too-much-Watchmen series from the 90s. But so far your only reasoning given is his name and its associations. So again, what if we had the exact same movies but just the names and labels were all switched- Megatron for Optimus, Autobots for Decepticons? Are you saying genocide is compatible with being "undeniably good and heroic"? He doesn't just beat the poo poo out of Decepticons. He endangers Earth while paying lip-service to the ideal of protecting humanity.
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Jun 30, 2014 02:09
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