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MisterBibs posted:He beats the poo poo out of Decepticon and Decepticon-allied entities. I'm on board with those actions, since the targets are always and exclusively Decepticon and Decepticon-allied entities. I'm not sure what you're asking, here. The primary antagonists in Transformers 4 are not Decepticons or allies of the Decepticons, they're just trying to arrest Optimus Prime and he destroys a major city to avoid it. And then at the end we learn he could have left the planet at any time. e: Hell, uncritically siding with the Transformers identifies you with Sam and Cade. Do you really think these movies present Sam and Cade as good people to identify with. Mornacale fucked around with this message at 02:19 on Jun 30, 2014 |
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Jun 30, 2014 02:11
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To be fair to the genocidal monster, I think the rocket boots came with his slight update he received with the greatsword in the spaceknight's space-crusading ship.
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Jun 30, 2014 02:20
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MisterBibs posted:It has nothing to do with the era of the original property. In the 90s, Beast Wars made its Megatron a bit more sympathetic. But ultimately you never were asked to believe anything but Megatron being the bad guy, because that's just the nature of the property. In Beast Wars, Megatron is made slightly sympathetic in that it's implied the Maximal government may have been oppressing the Predacons, and he is a rogue terrorist trying vainly to restore freedom to his people against the wishes of even the self-serving Predacon leadership. However, at no point is it ever stated or even implied that Megatron was primarily concerned with anything but furthering his own maniacal need to rule everything and stroke his massive ego. In fact, he puts off enacting the plan set in motion by his namesake to alter history in the Decepticons' favour until after he had finally been captured by the authorities because he believed at the time that the risk to himself was too great and that there were alternate avenues to power, even though that was the whole reason he stole the Golden Record and went to Earth in the first place. However, the Maximals and Optimus Primal in particular are basically never anything but heroic, Primal himself characterized as a peaceful scientist explorer who would have been more at home in the Star Trek universe than Transformers. In the Bay films, Megatron is the only character in the first three movies to even mention a truce, let alone any concept of peace. He even saves Optimus from Sentinel Prime, only to be answered by getting his face and spinal column ripped out with an axe. The Decepticons may not have Earth's best interests in mind but the Autobots are clearly not heroes in these films either. Just because someone wears a certain logo and says "I'm a good guy" doesn't make them a good guy.
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Jun 30, 2014 02:25
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Maarak posted:To be fair to the genocidal monster, I think the rocket boots came with his slight update he received with the greatsword in the spaceknight's space-crusading ship. I want to know how the Knights, Primes, Creators, AllSpark and everything fit together.
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Jun 30, 2014 02:28
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I always thought it was really obvious that the Autobots were the ruling class back on Cybertron. Every one of them turns into a high end consumer vehicles. Even Ironhide, who used to turn into a van, now turns into a ridiculously expensive SUV, the very symbol of American middle class excess. Meanwhile the Decepticons, almost to a man, turn into workhorses. Even those who turn into military vehicles turn into working vehicles, like a transport helicopter or a mine clearing vehicle. The two exceptions are Brawl, who looks like a Lego man with the guns on (seriously, his face is so wide, honest and totally not a villain's face) and Starscream, who turns into the poster child for American military overspending, representing his fearsome appearance but general ineffectiveness. When Megatron turns into a truck he is what Ram pitches as "not fancy, but will get the job done, while Prime turns into a truck that costs literally twice what Megatron's does.
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Jun 30, 2014 02:29
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Milky Moor posted:I want to know how the Knights, Primes, Creators, AllSpark and everything fit together. I think the Knights are the Primes. Robot Style posted:It's really quick, but I love when Lockdown mentions that the ship used to belong to Optimus, and Lockdown just commandeered it. What are the odds Optimus already had Grimlock and the other Dinobots hung upside-down in cages when Lockdown took command? Probably pretty good odds, given their initial antagonism towards him and the way they hightail it out of dodge at the ends.
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Jun 30, 2014 02:37
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sleepingbuddha posted:How many times does Optimus say "I'll kill you," or some variation of this? I can't be the only one that saw the schadenfreude in Prime's rage at the hunting of his autobots. He joined with the military and ruthlessly hunted down Decepticons in exactly the same manner. The scenes were virtually identical. Optimus confronts a downed decepticon and executes him on the spot in gruesome fashion. Both sides come down to earth and continue their feud and co opt the military into doing their dirty work. There is no reason to think that given a situation where he is down and out, Optimus would not go into a purely genocidal war against humanity. He breaks his vow to not kill humans a couple of hours after he declares it. They have not shown the line he is unwilling to cross. Honestly, it's hard not to side with the creators by the end of the movie. if Prime isn't removed, how bad can the situation get? Pretty bad I'd say.
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Jun 30, 2014 02:41
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Lord Krangdar posted:But so far your only reasoning given is his name and its associations. A character being named Optimus Prime inherently means something, are inherently associated with certain things. Same thing with Autobot, Megatron, and Decepticon. A movie with the names switched would prove exactly what I'm saying: that the names mean something in the first place. A movie where Optimus Prime wasn't heroic would only be interesting because the name and character is indelibly a heroic one. The filmmakers didn't go this direction because if you're making a bunch of Transformers movies, you go with the Transformers Everyone On Earth Knows, not the Opposite Transformers. Which they've done for four movies. Heroic Optimus and Heroic Autobots, Villainous Megatron and Villainous Decepticons. Lord Krangdar posted:He endangers Earth while paying lip-service to the ideal of protecting humanity. Megatron and the Decepticons endanger the Earth by landing on Earth first to find the AllSpark. Prime and the Autobots defend the earth from Megatron. Mornacale posted:e: Hell, uncritically siding with the Transformers identifies you with Sam and Cade. Do you really think these movies present Sam and Cade as good people to identify with. The alternative is identifying with Would-Shoot-A-Teenager-Dude or Would Enslave The Earth Robot, so I'm pleased as punch to be on the correct (Protagonist) side. I like movies more when those that I identify with are the ones who survive and win. You identify with the Emperor, Doomsday, The Joker, and Freddy Krueger a lot, I take it? Tighclops posted:However, at no point is it ever stated or even implied that Megatron was primarily concerned with anything but furthering his own maniacal need to rule everything and stroke his massive ego...the Maximals and Optimus Primal in particular are basically never anything but heroic, Primal himself characterized as a peaceful scientist explorer who would have been more at home in the Star Trek universe than Transformers. I'm glad we're in agreement that when a character is named Megatron, he's going to do Bad Things, and Autobot/Autobot-derived groups are heroic. Tighclops posted:In the Bay films, Megatron is the only character in the first three movies to even mention a truce, let alone any concept of peace. "It's okay, guys! The guy named Megatron is talking about peace! And he only wanted his machete back!  "I'm sure you thought the same character was legitimately asking for mercy this time too. Tighclops posted:He even saves Optimus from Sentinel Prime, only to be answered by getting his face and spinal column ripped out with an axe. The Decepticons may not have Earth's best interests in mind but the Autobots are clearly not heroes in these films either. Optimus's best moment. He knows that Megatron is a lying liar who lies, and he's not stupid enough to buy it. MisterBibs fucked around with this message at 02:59 on Jun 30, 2014 |
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Jun 30, 2014 02:55
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MisterBibs posted:A character being named Optimus Prime inherently means something, are inherently associated with certain things. Same thing with Autobot, Megatron, and Decepticon. I know the names have associations attached to them. I don't think those associations trump the actual content of these films. Like I said, the films are satirizing the assumption there, and yes doing so means acknowledging those assumptions exist. quote:Prime and the Autobots defend the earth from Megatron. Well, that's what he says his goal is. When in the films does he actually do this? If he gave Megatron what he wanted, wouldn't that protect Earth? Especially in the second film. I don't fully recall the third one. Have you seen Pain & Gain?
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Jun 30, 2014 03:07
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Mega: unit of measure equal to one million. Originally, large or great. Tron: (1) vacuum tube; (2) device for manipulating subatomic particles. Originally, suffix denoting an instrument. Wow, it's all so clear now, that is indeed a name dripping with evil etc.
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Jun 30, 2014 03:10
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Really, none of the names have inherently good/evil connotations aside from "Decepticon". You give the names Optimus Prime/Megatron to someone who loved under a rock for years and has no idea what the gently caress a Transformer is, you might not get such a clear split .
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Jun 30, 2014 03:13
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MisterBibs posted:I'm glad we're in agreement that when a character is named Megatron, he's going to do Bad Things, and Autobot/Autobot-derived groups are heroic. My point was that they didn't just tell you he was bad because he was Megatron, they showed you he was bad through his actions and behavior, just like Bayverse Prime shows us he is bad through his actions and behavior. quote:"It's okay, guys! The guy named Megatron is talking about peace! And he only wanted his machete back! The Megatron of the Michael Bay Transformers movies is not G1 Megatron, just like Bayverse Optimus Prime is not G1 Prime nor is he Optimus Primal. They are different characters defined by their actions within the context of their respective fictional universes. Do you understand this?
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Jun 30, 2014 03:16
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Why are you arguing with the guy? He admitted that he can't see the obviously inserted, government mandated, Chinese propaganda and he thinks that things are inherently good just because they have the word 'good' in their name. Also this movie made me really really thirsty for Chinese milk and I don't know why.
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Jun 30, 2014 03:24
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I'm sure there's no intentional decisions to make the Autobots bad. That's why they took this guy - Bulkhead, who was probably the nicest, friendlist robot from the recent series... And turned him into a violent, aggressive murder machine who blasts away an alien lifeform in a cage for the crime of spitting on him with harmless gunk named Hound, invoking a beast that is let off the chain to attack someone else.
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Jun 30, 2014 03:40
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Shaocaholica posted:Please don't compare with prometheus kthx. Please tell me which movie you're offended on behalf of. 
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Jun 30, 2014 03:46
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MisterBibs posted:
Disregarding for now the already kind of skeevy attachment of moral absolutism to a 30 year old franchise designed from the ground up as a vehicle for merchandising, I have to wonder what you'd think about the current IDW Transformers ongoing, in which... well:  EDIT: I suppose this seems apropos, from the same ongoing: 
3 fucked around with this message at 04:00 on Jun 30, 2014 |
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Jun 30, 2014 03:55
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3 posted:Disregarding for now the already kind of skeevy attachment of moral absolutism to a 30 year old franchise designed from the ground up as a vehicle for merchandising, I have to wonder what you'd think about the current IDW Transformers ongoing, in which... well:
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Jun 30, 2014 04:12
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MisterBibs posted:Optimus's best moment. He knows that Megatron is a lying liar who lies, and he's not stupid enough to buy it. Great that you mention this, except this makes absolutely no sense. Megatron could easily kill Optimus and Sentinel as they are distracted. He asks for a truce from a position of power. Why in the gently caress would he be lying?
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Jun 30, 2014 05:00
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This is a common reaction. The Autobots are good, the Decepticons are bad. Anything that contradicts that is a mistake by Michael Bay, who is, of course, a big dumb idiot. As if he's accidentally made these films three times in a row.
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Jun 30, 2014 05:13
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MisterBibs posted:Megatron and the Decepticons endanger the Earth by landing on Earth first to find the AllSpark. Prime and the Autobots defend the earth from Megatron. What about finding the allspark would be inherently dangerous? Also, Megatron lands prehistorically. Finding the Allspark at that point would have endangered no one.
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Jun 30, 2014 05:14
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mugrim posted:What about finding the allspark would be inherently dangerous? Also, Megatron lands prehistorically. Finding the Allspark at that point would have endangered no one. Because Megatron wants to make more evil robots to take over the galaxy with! *Somehow the Decepticons didn't conquer the galaxy literally eons ago*
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Jun 30, 2014 05:20
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PriorMarcus posted:Yeah, Prime is apart of the 1%. Megatron's only real crime was wanting equality. Actually, the Megatron-as-revolutionary backstory comes from the Generation 1 UK comics and was adopted by the Aligned universe (the Prime TV show and War/Fall games) and the IDW G1 comics where he started as a disgruntled miner. The movie comics' backstory is that Megatron was the head of Cybertron's defense forces while Optimus was the head of the science division under Sentinel Prime. After Sentinel's forces unified the planet, Sentinel backed off and ruled in-name-only while Megatron and Optimus were the de facto dual rulers of Cybertron, with Optimus being groomed as Sentinel's successor since Sentinel knew that Optimus was descended from the Primes. Megatron was jealous of Optimus' lineage and starts to get more authoritarian, demanding to be called the Lord High Protector of Cybertron. The science division ends up unearthing a relic that The Fallen is trapped inside of (this was a plot point dropped from RotF - he's supposed to be stuck in it, having been sealed by the Primes, until Optimus dies, at which time he is able to be released from his imprisonment), who makes a psychic link with Megatron and convinces him that he'll gain power if he follows his orders. Cybertron then falls under invasion from aliens from the Eshems Nebula who want the Allspark and Megatron decides to launch an attack at the aliens' homeworld (Optimus thinks this is wrong and that they should just defend Cybertron instead of go on the attack, which seems really uncharacteristic after movies 2 - 4). The Cybertronians are victorious and Megatron grows paranoid that Optimus' loyalists are trying to undermine him so he claims total power and starts trying to wipe out his opponents, which leads to the civil war. edit: That said, the likelihood that Michael Bay knows any of this or takes it into consideration is probably nonexistent because it was made up by IDW. CJSwiss fucked around with this message at 05:28 on Jun 30, 2014 |
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Jun 30, 2014 05:23
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Lord Krangdar posted:If he gave Megatron what he wanted, wouldn't that protect Earth? Just so I'm clear, you're earnestly and legitimately arguing the "Give The Bad Guy The Thing He Wants" cliche? I hear there was a guy in the fourth movie that advocated that position. How did it end up for him? Or how about the guy in the second movie that wanted to find a diplomatic solution with The Fallen? Tighclops posted:The Megatron of the Michael Bay Transformers movies is not G1 Megatron, just like Bayverse Optimus Prime is not G1 Prime nor is he Optimus Primal. They are different characters defined by their actions within the context of their respective fictional universes. Do you understand this? The filmmakers built upon the cultural understanding that Prime is a hero and Megatron is the villain by ensuring that Prime acts as a hero and Megatron acts like a villain. Any half-developed notions that Prime may not be the hero (and that Megatron might not be the villain) are made moot by that cultural understanding. Show me a scene where you'd  that Prime brutally destroys a Decepticon, or Hound shoots some slime-throwing alien, and I'll show you a scene the audience cheers, and rightfully so.IT BEGINS posted:Great that you mention this, except this makes absolutely no sense. Megatron could easily kill Optimus and Sentinel as they are distracted. He asks for a truce from a position of power. Why in the gently caress would he be lying? Because Megatron has shown over two films at this point to be the platonic ideal of Someone Not To Trust If You Have Two Brain Cells To Bang Together, not to mention that he's Megatron. Milky Moor posted:Because Megatron wants to make more evil robots to take over the galaxy with! You know, because that's what the Autobots prevented for eons: the whole Megatron-Taking-Over-Everything-Because-That's-What-He-Does thing.
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Jun 30, 2014 05:25
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MisterBibs posted:You know, because that's what the Autobots prevented for eons: the whole Megatron-Taking-Over-Everything-Because-That's-What-He-Does thing. But the Autobots lost the war - by Optimus' own admission.
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Jun 30, 2014 05:28
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CJSwiss posted:Actually, the Megatron-as-revolutionary backstory comes from the Generation 1 UK comics and was adopted by the Aligned universe (the Prime TV show and War/Fall games) and the IDW comics where he started as a disgruntled miner. Yeah, but how much of that is actually in the movies, and how much of it is comics/novelizations/other things that don't matter.
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Jun 30, 2014 05:29
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Optimus Prime? Head of science? 
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Jun 30, 2014 05:30
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MisterBibs posted:The filmmakers built upon the cultural understanding that Prime is a hero and Megatron is the villain by ensuring that Prime acts as a hero and Megatron acts like a villain. Any half-developed notions that Prime may not be the hero (and that Megatron might not be the villain) are made moot by that cultural understanding. MisterBibs posted:You know, because that's what the Autobots prevented for eons: the whole Megatron-Taking-Over-Everything-Because-That's-What-He-Does thing. According to the Autobots.
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Jun 30, 2014 05:30
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Milky Moor posted:But the Autobots lost the war - by Optimus' own admission. Yup, and if it weren't for Optimus chucking the AllSpark into space, we wouldn't have a movie because Earth would me Megatron's summer home. Snowman_McK posted:According to the Autobots. Yup. The trustworthy ones. As opposed to Megatron and the Decepticons, which are not trustworthy. 
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Jun 30, 2014 05:34
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Milky Moor posted:Optimus Prime? Head of science? If I'm not mistaken, that's a really common origin for Optimus. I think he is always a scientist or something that has leadership thrust upon him in most series. Not so much in the bayverse though. edit: Why is everyone still arguing with this guy? He is obviously just doing this to get a reaction. He has said a total of one thing a whole bunch of times.
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Jun 30, 2014 05:35
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MisterBibs posted:Yup. The trustworthy ones. As opposed to Megatron and the Decepticons, which are not trustworthy.
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Jun 30, 2014 05:36
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MisterBibs posted:Yup, and if it weren't for Optimus chucking the AllSpark into space, we wouldn't have a movie because Earth would me Megatron's summer home. But the AllSpark brought Megatron to Earth.
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Jun 30, 2014 05:37
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Yoshifan823 posted:Yeah, but how much of that is actually in the movies, and how much of it is comics/novelizations/other things that don't matter. I beat you to it with my edit, but yeah it obviously doesn't match up or matter for Bay's intentions. As an obsessive fan though, I know that Hasbro considers any officially produced fiction to be canon, which makes for some fun hoops to jump through.
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Jun 30, 2014 05:41
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MisterBibs posted:The filmmakers built upon the cultural understanding that Prime is a hero and Megatron is the villain by ensuring that Prime acts as a hero and Megatron acts like a villain. Any half-developed notions that Prime may not be the hero (and that Megatron might not be the villain) are made moot by that cultural understanding. Apparently you've never heard of subversion? This whole thread started because it seems Bay might be making movies that are actually subverting the old cultural idea that Optimus is the Hero and Megatron the Villian. There was a cultural understanding that Maleficent was a totally irredeemable villain in Sleeping Beauty. Evil just for the sake of it. That's who she was, one of Disney's most evil villains. This year, we got a movie that turns that entire cultural understanding on it's head by presenting Maleficent as a good person who was wronged by evil, turned into a dick, then redeemed herself back into a hero. Cultural understanding doesn't automatically cancel anything out.
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Jun 30, 2014 05:45
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Milky Moor posted:But the AllSpark brought Megatron to Earth. Because Megatron needed it to wage war on the galaxy, enslave the universe, etc. I'm sure if you bang your head against a rock until everything is fuzzy you could assume that maybe poor innocent Megatron just wanted it to boost his Wi-Fi...
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Jun 30, 2014 05:45
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MisterBibs posted:Because Megatron needed it to wage war on the galaxy, enslave the universe, etc.
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Jun 30, 2014 05:59
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Ash1138 posted:Now you're just making things up. No, Optimus says that. And you can totally believe him because he keeps cutting faces apart. Also because he told you he's trustworthy.
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Jun 30, 2014 06:00
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MisterBibs posted:Because Megatron has shown over two films at this point to be the platonic ideal of Someone Not To Trust If You Have Two Brain Cells To Bang Together, not to mention that he's Megatron. Actually, he hasn't shown this at all. Megatron does literally no deceiving of any kind at this point in the movies. Yeah, he's the bad guy. That doesn't mean his call for a truce is a lie. Tell me this: do you think General Hummel is lying to the Captains when he says that he doesn't want to kill hundreds of thousands of civilians at the end of The Rock? Obviously yes, since he is 'the bad guy' IT BEGINS fucked around with this message at 06:10 on Jun 30, 2014 |
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Jun 30, 2014 06:05
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IT BEGINS posted:Tell me this: do you think General Hummel is lying to the Captains when he says that he doesn't want to kill hundreds of thousands of civilians at the end of The Rock? Obviously yes, since he is I wouldn't know, since I've never seen The Rock. Nor does The Rock have characters that I'm predisposed to trust (or distrust) and that reinforce that trust/distrust through four films. Transformers does. Go into it trusting Prime to be a hero, he's (obviously) a hero. Go into it distrusting Megatron and assuming he's a villain, he's (obviously) a villain. I don't need that for every film, but when we're talking about Transformers, going with what we know already to be the case makes for an more enjoyable experience.
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Jun 30, 2014 06:11
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There's a level on which this is kind of impressive
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Jun 30, 2014 06:19
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MisterBibs posted:I wouldn't know, since I've never seen The Rock. Nor does The Rock have characters that I'm predisposed to trust (or distrust) and that reinforce that trust/distrust through four films. "Ignore anything that doesn't support a surface reading of the film, and the surface reading is reinforced". Gotcha. I'd also argue that watching the film with the understanding that Optimus is a violent psychopath actually makes it more enjoyable, but to each their own.
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Jun 30, 2014 06:19
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