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sebmojo posted:sithsaver, fyi, italics is [ i ] and [ / i ] (without the spaces, or you can highlight the text and go ctrl i) and you do emoticons by going : (emoticon name) :. Stop being smarter than me!
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Jun 27, 2014 03:02
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Sithsaber posted:Son of a bitch http://i.somethingawful.com/images/emot-dance.gif Thoughts about writing arguments: 1) One thing to remember is that you can't write truly realistic dialogue most of the time (read the thread for a giant loving argument on this that doesn't need to be rehashed.) People repeat themselves, stumble over words, interrupt each other, and just generally go on and on. Especially in an argument. No one wants to read an hour long argument between four people. Unless maybe they are reading Plato's dialogues, but honestly, not that many people read those anymore, and even people who do rarely appreciate it in the middle of a novel. (Or the beginning, don't get caught up on the splinter in my eye.) So, fictional arguments need to be pared down. In an argument with 4 people, you're looking for, in my opinion, 4-5 sentences from each, max. Pull out a book and count the number of lines per page. It's probably between 30 and 50 depending on the formatting. How many pages of 4-way argument do you think readers are willing to read? Personally, I put it at around 2 pages, or roughly 1,000 words at the longest. More if you manage to break it up with meaningful action (more on that later). Net-net, this means you can't afford to show the entire argument in all its nitty-gritty reality. You need to boil it down to the key positions and responses of each player. 2) as mentioned above by Sebmojo, people rarely talk to each other, they talk through and around each other. They rarely say exactly what they mean (see Platonic Dialogue exception discussed above). This means that even though you're boiling it down to everyone's key position, you don't want to have them reading a legal brief. Consider: a woman who has been struggling to keep her house clean might not sit her husband down and have a discussion about equal balance of chores and request contribution, instead she might purse her lips and say "Honey, do you think you could take out the trash tonight?" A man who feels overburdened at work would say "oh, no problem, I can totally do that by Monday, I'll just come in this weekend, I can probably miss my son's little league game if necessary." (Lol check out the sexism in those examples.) Anyway, the point is that the true problem is an undercurrent to the words, but still perceptible. Everyone has their own motivation, but they adjust how they say it to protect themselves from the consequences and difficulty of plain honesty, and often to try to placate or convince their audience. 3) conveying the interruptions and flow of natural conversation can be awkward if you try to represent it totally accurately. "I actually think that the quesadilla is NOT a variation of grilled che--" "No. Just no. The quesadilla is it's own th--" "But you will concede, surely, that it is melted cheese between two wheat-based objects?" So, you can't end every sentence in a dash. You can occasionally do things like: "That may be so, but I still think that the quesadilla is a distinct food item, based on its origin in a certain food culture." John didn't even wait for Luke to finish his statement before he started his rebuttal. "Food cultures are beside the point," he said. "We are talking about the literal components of a dish." "Now when you say literal," Paul began, interrupting John's point, "I think you mean classes of components, because a tortilla is clearly, literally different than a slice of bread." But even that will get annoying, obvious, and cumbersome by the end of an argument. You just have to let people say a complete thought sometimes, even if that might not be "literally" realistic. 4) which brings us to breaking up arguments with meaningful action. When your characters absolutely must have an extended discussion of something, it's good to break it up by adding meaningful action. That means actions that independently add to the plot, not just emotive actions like nervously running fingers through hair, although those kinds of actions are useful too. Consider the above examples (now gender-swapped), The man who wants his wife to help take care of the house is washing the dishes. Maybe he just cooked an elaborate meal for their anniversary, but his wife kept answering her blackberry during dinner. "Honey, could you take out the trash tonight?" He asked, up to his elbow in suds. With a sigh, she yanked the over-full bag out of the can before he could even scrape the leek tops on the cutting board onto the top of the pile. Sandwich crusts from Lindsey's lunch spilled onto the floor. Miranda didn't pick them up. When the door slammed behind her, Tim pulled a new bag out from under the sink, and put the leek tops and discarded sandwich crusts into the can. "Is there anything else you need me to handle?" Miranda asked, leaning against the kitchen door and only half-way looking up from her emails. "No," Tim said, "I can do the rest." Later that night, the chime of her email notification woke him. He rolled over, and watched her taut face in the blue-white glow of the screen. Her fingers flew over the keypad until she finally clicked the phone off and rolled over, her pajama-covered body curling away from him. "Miranda," he whispered. "What?" She hissed. "Do you even want to live here any more?" "What kind of question is that to ask me now?" She demanded. "I have to be up early tomorrow for the Brown deposition. You know that." **** Miranda had just gotten off the phone with Tim, promising that she really would make it to Lindsey's little league game this weekend. The deposition had been postponed, and she could take a few hours off this weekend. Then her boss walked into her office. "Miranda," he said with a friendly smile, "how's the family?" "Great," she said. "Really good." "That's nice. Say, since the Brown depo has been postponed, I was hoping you could review this memo for me. I need a report by Monday, and you know John is busy with his son's birthday this weekend." "Oh, no problem, I can totally do that by Monday, I'll just come in this weekend, I can probably miss Lindsay's little league game if necessary." "Good, good. You know how important it is for everyone to chip in at times like this." ----- That action is more on-point with respect to the argument than meaningful action needs to be. Consider a story about a monk who leaves his order to support an important political cause. He and his fellow acolyte are helping with preparations for the festival where he will eventually meet the man who inspires him to leave. While they are sweeping the temple, dusting the statuary, etc. they engage in a debate about what devotion to the monastic principles mean. They never directly discuss possible reasons for leaving, of course, but the monk who is about to leave says something obliquely relevant to that as he sweeps the last bit of debris out the temple doors. Or consider the part in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest where the protagonist convinces the staff that the inmates should be allowed to go on a fishing expedition. The expedition is an important plot point in the narrative, and symbolic of freedom and independence for the cowed populace of the mental hospital, but also part of the allegory of the protagonist as Jesus. Layers upon layers. Overall, what I'm saying is that extended arguments are pretty much universally boring (yes, even the Platonic Dialogues are rarely picked up for pleasure reading) but you can usually find a way to get the point across without five pages of line-by-line debate. Also, totally not bitter about my law job or the dishes piled in my sink, and quesadillas are OBVIOUSLY a taxonomic variation on the grilled cheese. edit: don't write giant posts on your phone. Thanks a lot CHAIRCHUCKER. YOU KNOW. Dr. Kloctopussy fucked around with this message at 10:06 on Jun 27, 2014 |
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Jun 27, 2014 07:15
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Holy  ing poo poo.That was magisterial. edit: cheese on toast (<= correct nomenclature) is actually one of the primal food-forms, with pizza, kebabs, burgers and spaghetti bolognese as isomers 
sebmojo fucked around with this message at 09:41 on Jun 27, 2014 |
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Jun 27, 2014 09:22
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i think that this video has a lot of good themes/metaphors on writing realtionships. i especially like the one about looking for a bigger piece of spaghetti. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/..._w#members.join
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Jun 28, 2014 04:21
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Dr. K's post was good and if you write things you should read it.
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Jun 28, 2014 04:34
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What are your opinions on editors? Can you dump entire chapters on them or is that ghost writing?
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Jun 28, 2014 05:31
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Sithsaber posted:What are your opinions on editors? Can you dump entire chapters on them or is that ghost writing? Have you found an editor who is willing to write entire chapters for you? (Pretty sure the answer to this is "lol no") Unless you mean can you give them entire chapters to edit.... Because yes, they can and should edit the full work.
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Jun 28, 2014 05:38
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Sithsaber posted:What are your opinions on editors? Can you dump entire chapters on them or is that ghost writing? Editors don't write poo poo for you. You're not paying them, after all!
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Jun 28, 2014 06:37
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I'm asking about submitted chapters that are deemed unworkable.
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Jun 28, 2014 06:49
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You don't submit chapters, you submit entire works. If multiple chapters are "unworkable" you are unlikely to find an agent or a publisher (who editors work for) to take on the project. If you are talking about contract editors who you pay to edit stuff, they will give you feedback on chapters no matter how hosed up, and might make some suggestions, but they will not rewrite chapters for you. Hope this helps.
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Jun 28, 2014 06:58
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Dr. Kloctopussy posted:You don't submit chapters, you submit entire works. If multiple chapters are "unworkable" you are unlikely to find an agent or a publisher (who editors work for) to take on the project. It did. I obviously know nothing.
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Jun 28, 2014 07:01
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Sithsaber posted:It did. I obviously know nothing. Edit the third: my original post was just the link below, because seriously, if you have questions about how things work, do a loving google search, jesus. You're not fooling anyone by asking us for our "opinions" on editors, when what you really need to know is "what do editors do?" and even that question you phrased with a remarkable lack of clarity--were you asking about editing or complete writing replacements or something in between? it is a loving mystery, because you didn't express yourself clearly through writing. Also, do a basic google search and consider reading the thread before you ask just every question that randomly pops into your head. The argument question was good, because it lets us all express our genuine opinion and experience with writing. Which you could also find on several other message boards that you might discover with a cursory google search. But maybe there is some enhanced value from getting direct answers from people here on the Something Awful forums, where are all way smarter and better than the rest of the internet: This is a pretty comprehensive overview of the publishing process, and very up-front about publishing as a for-profit effort. It doesn't go into detail about the exact role an editor plays in preparing a book for publication, but it gives a decent overview. (Note the inclusion of a caveat similar to my own: if your work needs significant work, it won't make it past an agent.) http://www.writersdigest.com/writing-articles/by-writing-goal/business-legal-matters/publishing-101-what-you-need-to-know Caveat to the following: I have never hired a freelance editor, but have been looking into it for a couple projects I am working on. This article also doesn't cover freelance editors. Generally speaking, in traditional publishing, you never pay for editing or publishing services. If you are paying someone else to publish your book, it is a vanity press. BUT it's totally reasonable to hire a freelance editor on your own, before even submitting to agents. This isn't that common (although I've heard rumors it is becoming more so?) for people who are trying to go the traditional publishing route, but it is common among self-publishers. Especially the successful ones. If you've got about $500 to throw at a book that you might never see a return on, it can be a decent way to get feedback and detailed comments from a professional. Writing groups and good self-editing skills replace freelance editors for many authors, but personally, I don't think there is anything wrong with paying a professional for help, especially when you're at that midpoint between "I've written a couple books, and I think this one is pretty good, but I'm not sure it's ready to send to agents yet." Not so much for when you are like "Wooooo! My NaNoWriMo novel is loving brilliant, time to be a millionaire!" Unless you're already pretty rich and $500 is nothing to you, in which case hire away. Freelance editors are poor and need the money. It sounds like you might be at or approaching that point, but if you are legit worried about entire chapters being unworkable, I would suggest submitting to a crit group first. It can be hard to find anyone willing to read your entire novel, but even getting feedback on the first few chapters can be very illuminating. An ideal crit group is made up of people who are NOT your friends, and who you think know a little bit about reading and writing. Crits from good readers are better than crits from good writers. Your friends will pretty much always tell you your book is pretty good, no matter how much you say you want them to be honest. Also they will quit reading it after 5 pages and try to avoid talking about it if at all possible. Later you might become friends with people in your crit group (:3) but you will have established that it's cool to say scathing things about each other's writing, so it will be fine. There are websites and forums where you can find crit groups (I think writer's digest has a forum for this), but you can also post a few chapters here. You will get honest feedback. It helps to post in here with a link to the thread so people will visit and read it. Some authors don't use crit groups (Stephen King hates them, if I recall correctly, whereas Brandon Sanderson is in the same one he formed in college). These authors rely more on self-editing. Or in the case of Stephen King, being Stephen King. I think a google search will turn up some published-author experiences with crit groups. Back to freelance editors: If you decide to go this route, how do you choose a good one? From what I can tell, and this is based pretty much entirely on reading the Self-Pub thread here, and about self-publishing on other forums, you get references from people who have worked with an editor. Personally, I would also look for experience in your genre in traditional publishing, especially if you are trying to get your book into shape for submitting to agents. You definitely want someone who works specifically with your genre, and who can provide references, even if they aren't from people you know. You can also look at books they have edited to determine if you think they are decent. When hiring an editor, be up-front and specific in your expectations, pay attention to what they say they will do, and have a contract in place. I can't tell from your previous posts where you are in the process, or if you're looking to self-pub or go the traditional route, but either way, it's good to understand the process and what to expect. GO FORTH AND WRITE. Edit 4: do a loving google search before you write. Dr. Kloctopussy fucked around with this message at 13:48 on Jun 28, 2014 |
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Jun 28, 2014 07:14
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I'm submitting to Jonathan Cape as they're open until the end of June which is kind of cool. I'm terrible at writing letters, though. Can someone tell me how terrible this is? quote:Dear Jonathan Cape readers, [terrible?]
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Jun 29, 2014 13:28
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Serious question: The publisher and I have been trying to get a new cover designed for our book. We aren't really big fans of the one we have now. Every artist we offer the job to turns out to be a flake. Any suggestions? Do you guys know anyone in CC who can design a decent book cover? Of course we'd be willing to pay I just kind of need the direction of an artist who can do decent book covers.
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Jun 30, 2014 18:53
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Zip posted:Serious question: The publisher and I have been trying to get a new cover designed for our book. We aren't really big fans of the one we have now. Every artist we offer the job to turns out to be a flake. What kind of book? I do covers and have done some for goons. https://www.ravenkult.com is my website. Mostly horror/dark stuff.
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Jun 30, 2014 18:58
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OOOOOOOOOOH wow. You're good! Zombie apocalypse novel with lots of comedy and action... although it is horror we have a fun feel with it. The cover has to be a little fun. http://www.amazon.com/Goodbye-Edge-...e+edge+of+never If you like I can send you an ebook copy of the book and you could check it out. Decide if you want in on the project and then let me know your usual rate for book covers. Incidentally if this works out, I have book two coming out hopefully before the end of the year... so I'd probably need a second and this is a three book series... so maybe a third?
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Jun 30, 2014 19:21
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hi zip, did you self publish and then get an actual publishing deal? or did you just happen to go digital first? ravenkult, your work is really superb btw.
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Jun 30, 2014 19:27
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Actual publishing deal with Falkor publishing (but it's co-op publishing so I get an actual say on some things.) We went with paperback and digital at first although if we get a decent cover we might do things backwards and finally print a hardback edition. I've been doing really well actually for a new writer. Convention appearances, podcasts and hitting some pretty decent milestones. Even got accepted to the Horror Writer's Association yesterday.  (proud of that! Brian Lumley used to run it at one point!) But the cover of my book... The cover needs to be retooled.
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Jun 30, 2014 19:32
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You should go all out and pay a really good cover artist, because if Hard Luck Hank is any indication, a good cover is a bigger deal than the actual writing quality as far as marketing goes.
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Jun 30, 2014 19:34
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cool, i wasnt 100% sure even if you had a publisher listed. ill probably pop in here another day in the near future to ask about publishing, unless there's a better thread for that?
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Jun 30, 2014 19:36
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Incidentally Lou if you're asking because you're looking for a publisher, my publisher is accepting submissions. It's co-op publishing so you get more freedom and a bigger chunk of sales... but, it is a new publisher... http://falkorpublishing.com
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Jun 30, 2014 19:36
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Zip posted:Incidentally Lou if you're asking because you're looking for a publisher, my publisher is accepting submissions. It's co-op publishing so you get more freedom and a bigger chunk of sales... but, it is a new publisher... cool! i'm definitely not ready, but i'll bookmark them and see if they're still accepting in the upcoming two or three months. i still need to do some pretty extensive style editing. thanks
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Jun 30, 2014 19:37
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LOU BEGAS MUSTACHE posted:cool! i'm definitely not ready, but i'll bookmark them and see if they're still accepting in the upcoming two or three months. i still need to do some pretty extensive style editing. thanks Let me know when you are and I'll give him the heads up that something is being submitted that he should pay attention to... No promises though.
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Jun 30, 2014 19:41
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systran posted:You should go all out and pay a really good cover artist, because if Hard Luck Hank is any indication, a good cover is a bigger deal than the actual writing quality as far as marketing goes. Oh it totally is... and that's why I'm trying to find a decent cover artist and I'm willing to pay. I think it is the only weak part of our marketing right now. :\
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Jun 30, 2014 19:42
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Zip posted:Let me know when you are and I'll give him the heads up that something is being submitted that he should pay attention to... No promises though. that is more than i could ever ask for consider yourself slightly richer.
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Jun 30, 2014 19:45
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Oh sweet! thanks man! Can you drop me a goodreads review when you finish it? Those are my favorite things in the world.
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Jun 30, 2014 19:47
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systran posted:You should go all out and pay a really good cover artist, because if Hard Luck Hank is any indication, a good cover is a bigger deal than the actual writing quality as far as marketing goes. THANKS A LOT SYSTRAN
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Jun 30, 2014 20:18
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Don't forget to add lots of tittays.
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Jun 30, 2014 21:12
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If Hard Luck Hank is any indication (again), mantits are important.
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Jun 30, 2014 23:24
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Any tips on how to write a good car chase scene?
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Jul 2, 2014 23:49
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EXT. BUSY STREETS - Night An Aston Martin races down the street, followed closely by a Land Rover. BRAD sticks his head out of the window and goes bug eyed as he looks back. He sticks his head back in to talk to the driver, who is surprisingly a female, WANDA. BRAD Oh man, the terrorists are going to catch us! WANDA Nobody can catch me! Brad (pointing) There, some stairs! WANDA Imma go down them!
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Jul 2, 2014 23:57
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crabrock posted:EXT. BUSY STREETS - Night Isn't that writing structure only suited to screenwriting?
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Jul 3, 2014 00:09
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Sithsaber posted:Isn't that writing structure only suited to screenwriting? Brad Bradley was not having the best of days. After a string of events that could only be called chaotic, he found himself in the passenger's seat of a car, specifically an Aston Martin. With the press of a button, he could hear the whirzzzzzzzzz of the window. He turned his head out he window and saw a Land Rover. His eyes bugged, and then returned back. With a sudden gasp, he turned to notice that his driver was a woman he knew. Wanda Wanderson's skills at driving were questionable, not because of her repeated history of safe driving habits, such as her hands currently being on ten and two. No, Wanda's ability to drive this car was uncertain because she had a vagina. And boobs. "Oh man, the terrorists are going to catch us!" exclaimed Bradley! "Not a body can catch me!" Wanda's words were as fierce as her extreme views on things like wage equality. "Stairs! Theres Stairs!" pointed Bard. Wanda tensed her knuckles, among other things. "Imma go down. On them. The stairs I mean." anime was right fucked around with this message at 00:26 on Jul 3, 2014 |
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Jul 3, 2014 00:17
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Sithsaber posted:Isn't that writing structure only suited to screenwriting? Yes.
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Jul 3, 2014 00:39
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Benny the Snake posted:Any tips on how to write a good car chase scene? Read a bunch of books with car chase scenes in them and take notes, then write your own. NO PLAGARIZING. Here's some books that have car chases in them, I think: Drive by James Sallis (yeah, the basis of the movie) https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/176378.Drive?from_search=true Cloud Atlas by David Mitchell, the chase is in Part III, i'm pretty sure https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/49628.Cloud_Atlas?from_search=true Casino Royale by Ian Flemming (James Bond #1) I am mostly guessing that this has a car chase https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3758.Casino_Royale?from_search=true A lot of other spy books, probably. Every James Bond movie has a car chase, so...the books might? Probably the Bourne books, I think? Didn't the movies have a car chase? Anything marketed as a Thriller with a car on the cover. Snow crash i'm too lazy to look it up on goodreads. Any book with two cars going fast on the cover. Novelizations of The Fast and The Furious series. Here's a James Patterson book with a car on the cover, so probably: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/13151.London_Bridges There's also an entire sub-genre of race car driver romance: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/8419429-the-chase?from_search=true Here's a blog post that breaks down one possible way to structure a chase scene: http://meggardiner.wordpress.com/2012/12/04/writing-chase-scenes/ Dr. Kloctopussy fucked around with this message at 06:52 on Jul 3, 2014 |
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Jul 3, 2014 06:24
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Dr. Kloctopussy posted:Read a bunch of books with car chase scenes in them and take notes, then write your own. NO PLAGARIZING.
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Jul 3, 2014 18:58
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Just don't burn your NOS too early or you'll look a fool
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Jul 3, 2014 19:05
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Dr. Kloctopussy posted:Read a bunch of books with car chase scenes in them and take notes, then write your own. NO PLAGARIZING. So what you're actually saying is you've never read a car chase in a book, or written one?
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Jul 3, 2014 20:29
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Benny the Snake posted:Any tips on how to write a good car chase scene? Here is an actual car chase which for various reasons I wrote in probably about 90 minutes altogether, with no editing or backtracking. I wrote it mainly to see if it was possible to write a car chase. You will see a bunch of stuff which should obviously be fixed (for one thing, do not just write out sound effects) but my point is that it is actually possible.
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Jul 3, 2014 20:43
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| # ? May 14, 2024 00:11 |
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qntm posted:Here is an actual car chase which for various reasons I wrote in probably about 90 minutes altogether, with no editing or backtracking. I wrote it mainly to see if it was possible to write a car chase. You will see a bunch of stuff which should obviously be fixed (for one thing, do not just write out sound effects) but my point is that it is actually possible. a car chase scene you wrote is not the same as a car chase scene in a book. Also, I have read Cloud Atlas and Snow Crash, both of which have car chase scenes and which I mentioned. No I haven't written a car chase scene and I didn't write one in 90 minutes with no editing or backtracking, because I don't think that would be very helpful to teach someone how to write a car chase scene. A teaching-sample scene should not really have a bunch of stuff that should obviously be fixed (for one thing a bunch of sound effects written out). No one said it wasn't possible. Would love to see a list of books with car chase scenes that you have read. TIA.
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Jul 4, 2014 05:46
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