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Paramemetic posted:The Hearer's path, the Theravada, is open to anyone. It requires no transmissions, no secret knowledge. Its teacher is the Buddha. It is also the basic foundation of all Buddhist paths. The Four Noble Truths, the Noble Eightfold Path, these are open to anyone and in fact must be practiced by anyone in the other two paths. Simply because one practices the Mahayana doesn't mean they get to grasp and cling and avoid Renunciation. The Mahayana, too, is open to anyone, and these two work hand in hand. In truth, only Vajrayana, essentially Tibetan Buddhism, is so dependent on a teacher, and that because of how it is structured. In Tibetan Buddhism, the Lama is hugely important because the Lama is actually present right now, and so becomes the greatest refuge. It's inaccurate to place the Theravada in the Hinayana slot of this Tibetan map of the various Buddhist vehicles. Unlike the hypothetical Hinayana, which can't be said to actually exist in any living Buddhist school (there are no modern "Hinayana" practitioners), Theravada is a total vehicle leading all the way to complete enlightenment (not just faux arahantship as defined by the Mahayana schools), it isn't strictly defined by renunciation, it involves close one-to-one apprenticeships between teacher and student (analogous to the guru relationship), and it can include advanced practices that aren't given out to beginners. I'm curious about the origins of this traditional formulation and how long it's been in use. It feels like a crude attempt to explain why there are so many Buddhisms by fitting every school into a clear hierarchy, in which the Vajrayana school of the map's inventor just happens to be the best and fastest way to enlightenment. This is a poor reflection of how people approach Buddhism in reality and doesn't seem to have much practical value. Chogyam Trungpa invented a more relevant psychological reinterpretation of this map, similar in intent to his reformulation of the six realms of rebirth, in which the Hinayana, Mahayana, and Vajrayana represent stages in an individual's meditative development: from self-interested practice motivated by conceit and limited to time on the cushion, to the totally effortless non-practice and boundless compassion of the high-level bodhisattva. That is cool, but this map may be tainted enough by its sectarian origins that if we were to abandon it altogether, we wouldn't be worse off for it. As for practical consequences of this map, earlier in the thread someone claimed unironically that it's impossible to awaken in this lifetime as a Theravadin practitioner because the Theravada = the Hinayana, and that if you want to get enlightened quick, you must have the preexisting good karma to become a Tibetan Buddhist monk or a lay Vajrayana practitioner. This is religious dogma fabricated long ago for sectarian gain, and it's gonzo that educated converts to Buddhism are capable of the suspension of critical thinking required to swallow it. In reality, there are plenty of Vajrayana practitioners belonging to the putative highest and fastest vehicle, who have a guru and have received empowerments, but their practice is inconsistent and they haven't attained any insight, while school-less and vehicle-less non-Buddhists accidentally reach awakening by overdoing Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction. In this case, the relatively unmotivated Vajrayana practitioner is planting seeds for future awakening, so such people shouldn't be denigrated, but the confused MBSR practitioner is unequivocally reaching awakening faster. I really like teachers who blend practices from different schools, like Shinzen Young, who is primarily a vipassana teacher but has a Zen background and also teaches deity yoga, and Reggie Ray, who mixes a lot of stuff. They recognize the borderlessness of Buddhist practice and are willing to draw methods from any school's toolset according to their efficacy. The strongest possible new emerging Buddhism, in terms of actually producing enlightened practitioners, would probably include practices from every tradition. My advice for any newcomer to Buddhism would be to read some books from various traditions, see what appeals to you, start doing daily meditation, and follow what moral precepts you can. If these practices bring you greater happiness, you might consider increasing the dose, since the benefits are exponential. Meditating alone is fine. If you're interested I can recommend great teachers (some Theravada, some Vajrayana, and some eclectic) who'd be able to work with you over Skype. quote:In the immediate future I plan on reading as much as I can on the paths, and try to narrow it down to the ones that I feel are 'for me'. But then again, picking a Columbus center that fits my schedule and just going and seeing how it goes also seems tempting. I encourage you to hold off making a decision for as long as you can, possibly for life. The Buddha didn't create any paths or schools, but of the various groups claiming to be Buddhist, some have practices that lead to the end of suffering, others that don't. Of the ones that work, some are faster and others are slower, and some involve pointless cultural baggage or empty ritual while others are relatively pure. You can decide you belong to a particular path once you've taken it all the way to enlightenment - until then, it's too early to say whether it's the right one for you. Edit: The last paragraph wasn't very practical. Basically, you should pick whatever form of meditation appeals to you and try working with some different teachers before you commit to anything. The most important things are to remain open-minded, be morally upright, and keep meditating every day, even if it's just for five minutes - these practices will truly benefit you and those around you, whereas belonging to a Buddhist school (e.g. "I'm Zen" or "I'm Tibetan Buddhist"), to the extent you buy the dogma of that school and believe other schools are inferior, isn't particularly healthy for human beings nor is it beneficial to awakening. Popcornicus fucked around with this message at 02:45 on Jun 27, 2014 |
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Jun 27, 2014 02:22
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Popcornicus posted:It's inaccurate to place the Theravada in the Hinayana slot of this Tibetan Buddhist map of the various Buddhist vehicles. Unlike the hypothetical Hinayana, which can't be said to actually exist in any living Buddhist school (there are no modern "Hinayana" practitioners), Theravada is a total vehicle leading all the way to complete enlightenment (not just faux arahantship as defined by the Mahayana schools), it isn't strictly defined by renunciation, it involves close one-to-one apprenticeships between teacher and student (analogous to the guru relationship), and it can include advanced practices that aren't given out to beginners. Admittedly I am not aware of the nuances of Theravada. I have only taken to refering to Hinayana as "Theravada" in this thread because people whine at me when I say "Hinayana" because "it's a diminutive for Theravada." Previously I would argue with it, but in this thread I've found it easier to just leave the term alone. quote:I'm curious about the origins of this traditional formulation and how long it's been in use. It feels like a crude attempt to explain why there are so many Buddhisms by fitting every school into a clear hierarchy, in which the Vajrayana school of the map's inventor just happens to be the best and fastest way to enlightenment. This is a poor reflection of how people approach Buddhism in reality and doesn't seem to have much practical value. The model of Hinayana as the Path of Renunciation, Mahayana as the Path of Emptiness, and Vajrayana as the Path of Buddha-nature/Tathagatagharba dates to at least the earlier Kagyu master's. Gampopa writes of it in the Jewel Ornament of Liberation, presumably he received it from Naropa, and so on. quote:Chogyam Trungpa invented a more relevant psychological reinterpretation of this map, similar in intent to his reformulation of the six realms of rebirth, in which the Hinayana, Mahayana, and Vajrayana represent stages in an individual's meditative development: from self-interested practice motivated by conceit and limited to time on the cushion, to the totally effortless non-practice and boundless compassion of the high-level bodhisattva. That is cool, but this map may be tainted enough by its sectarian origins that if we were to abandon it altogether, we wouldn't be worse off for it. I have never heard this, this map is interesting and perhaps relevant but not definitive. The Hinayana, Mahayana, and Vajrayana paths in this framework represent the Three Turnings of the Wheel, and the sequential order of Buddha's providing Dharma based on the various capacities of sentient beings. Buddha first taught the Four Noble Truths and the Renunciation Vehicle, because it is foundational and anyone can practice it. Without it, the other paths are worthless. Next, he taught the Mahayana with the Heart Sutra and the introduction of the concept of Emptiness. Without the basis in the Hinayana, and the establishment of Bodhicitta, teachings on emptiness can be very dangerous. Therefore, Mahayana practice generally requires a bit more, and relies on the Hinayana. Vajrayana then requires one to understand the concept of emptiness, because without emptiness, Buddha-nature makes no sense, and leads people to go "oh, I'm already a Buddha, I don't need to do anything." This relies on Emptiness, which again relies on the Four Noble Truths. For this reason, Jigten Sumgon, lineage master of the Drikung Kagyu, has taught that the preliminary practices and the Hinayana path are in fact profound. quote:As for practical consequences of this map, earlier in the thread someone claimed unironically that it's impossible to awaken in this lifetime as a Theravadin practitioner because the Theravada = the Hinayana, and that if you want to get enlightened quick, you must have the preexisting good karma to become a Tibetan Buddhist monk or a lay Vajrayana practitioner. This is baseless religious dogma fabricated long ago for sectarian gain, and it's truly gonzo that educated, modern western converts to Buddhism are capable of the major suspension of critical thinking required to swallow it. This would definitely show a misunderstanding of that. I think my precious lama put it very well once saying that Vajrayana can definitely guarantee someone to attain Buddhahood in just one lifetime - but it's not necessarily this lifetime.  Basically, the Hinayana (used here deliberately, since you mentioned things I did not know about Theravada) can only attain a sort of lesser liberation, not full Buddhahood. I have some more specific notes on what exactly can be accomplished (in terms of Bhumis in the Tibetan tradition) through the Hinayana. I would agree that it's impossible to attain ultimate liberation in anything but the Mahayana. But again, there are karmas and predispositions. I don't believe it's necessary to have had the karma of being born as a yogi, but I do believe it's necessary to have had the karma of being able to become a yogi. You can't get the result without doing the work. So there are certainly precious karmas that provide for example enough leisure to be able to do the preliminary practices and the profound practices and so on. But just because you're not born in Dharamshala as a tulku doesn't mean you won't attain. That said, if you practice only the path of renunciation, and hold only the vinaya and not the bodhisattva vows, and so on, then at best you can only attain to a certain point, after which you will encapsulate in consciousness until the Buddhas call you out of it and you start the Bodhisattva's path.quote:In reality, there are plenty of Vajrayana practitioners belonging to the putative highest and fastest vehicle, who have a guru and have received empowerments, but their practice is inconsistent and they haven't attained any insight, while school-less and vehicle-less non-Buddhists accidentally reach awakening by overdoing Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction. The relatively unmotivated Vajrayana practitioners are planting seeds for future awakening, so such people shouldn't be denigrated, but the confused MBSR practitioner is unequivocally reaching awakening faster. Awakening is only a very small step in the path. Just having attained realization is the very first step. Anybody can do this, Hinayana, Mahayana, Solitary Realizer, realization is only a very first step in the path. Momentary realization is easily within our grasp. Attaining stability in realization is a lot more work. And after you've attained stability in realization, your path has only just begun and at that time the development of the Bodhisattva's path only begins. quote:I really like teachers who blend practices from different schools, like Shinzen Young, who is primarily a vipassana teacher but has a Zen background and also teaches deity yoga, and Reggie Ray, who mixes a lot of stuff. They recognize the borderlessness of Buddhist practice and are willing to draw methods from any school's toolset according to their efficacy. The strongest possible new emerging Buddhism, in terms of actually producing enlightened practitioners, would probably include practices from every tradition. This really does embody the concept of Ri Me, the borderless "all paths are valid" method, is really good. I mean, Buddha taught 84,000 paths. They are all for different beings of different capacities, levels, dispositions, and so on. Some people come in here and say "I don't really like metaphysics or supernatural stuff." There's a path for that! Some people are really inclined to supernatural and shamanistic practice. There's a path for that! And so on. quote:My advice for any newcomer to Buddhism would be to read some books from various traditions, see what appeals to you, start doing daily meditation, and follow what moral precepts you can. If these practices bring you greater happiness, you might consider increasing the dose, since the benefits are exponential. Meditating alone is fine. If you're interested I can recommend great teachers (some Theravada, some Vajrayana, and some eclectic) who'd be able to work with you over Skype. I agree with this to a point. Once you find a teacher who appeals, or a path that kind of resonates with you, you should pursue that and not look too much at others. Looking at too many others is no good. One traditional criticism of Tibetan Buddhism goes "Indian practitioners practice one practice and attain all the results, Tibetan practitioners practice all the practices and attain none of them." There's something to that. If you start shopping for practices, or looking around at too much, they can easily get confused. My tradition says Vajradhara is the primordial Buddha. Other traditions say it's Samantabhadra, or Vairocana. It really doesn't matter because they're all void-nature. But it can be confusing. So once you've found a path that works for you, stick to that with commitment and dedication to the lama. Or if you're another school, do how those schools do. Test a lama like a merchant tests gold, and then having found the lama, follow his or her lead.
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Jun 27, 2014 02:49
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Dr.Caligari posted:Thank you all for your replies and links. I should have mentioned in my first post, that the closest major city that I spoke of is Columbus Ohio. I have been browsing different centers there and I have seen several that I think would be accommodating to my needs. If you're inclined towards mysticism and esotericism, there is a Nyingma school in Columbus I believe, part of the Palyul Ling school. Their website is here: http://www.palyul.org/ My lama was a Nyingmapa before he joined the Drikung Kagyu, and I have a lot of respect for this school. I know another goon in this thread is currently looking into Nyingma elsewhere in the States. The school you posted in Karma Kagyu, a related tradition to my own, the largest of the Kagyu schools. It will be Tibetan style Vajrayana, so almost anything I've written about in this thread could apply in some form or another. I kind of disagree with Popcornicus, in that I think you should jump into something and try it out. Don't commit, but start looking! Why not? You'll know when is right.
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Jun 27, 2014 02:54
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Paramemetic posted:Admittedly I am not aware of the nuances of Theravada. I have only taken to refering to Hinayana as "Theravada" in this thread because people whine at me when I say "Hinayana" because "it's a diminutive for Theravada." Previously I would argue with it, but in this thread I've found it easier to just leave the term alone. Applying the term "Hinayana" to the Theravada school is pejorative. Substituting the term "Theravada" where the formulation originally said "Hinayana" has the same meaning, Theravada = Hinayana. It would be best to use the term "Hinayana" wherever the original source said "Hinayana" and do the same for the term "Theravada"; that way the two never get mixed up. Although I just wrote a six-paragraph essay on the topic for some reason, I wasn't personally offended (unless some part of me is still mad about the Daniel Ingram fiasco), it's just something to watch out for. Paramemetic posted:I agree with this to a point. Once you find a teacher who appeals, or a path that kind of resonates with you, you should pursue that and not look too much at others. Looking at too many others is no good. One traditional criticism of Tibetan Buddhism goes "Indian practitioners practice one practice and attain all the results, Tibetan practitioners practice all the practices and attain none of them." There's something to that. If you start shopping for practices, or looking around at too much, they can easily get confused. My tradition says Vajradhara is the primordial Buddha. Other traditions say it's Samantabhadra, or Vairocana. It really doesn't matter because they're all void-nature. But it can be confusing. So once you've found a path that works for you, stick to that with commitment and dedication to the lama. Or if you're another school, do how those schools do. Test a lama like a merchant tests gold, and then having found the lama, follow his or her lead. In the Buddha's time, it was the norm for Buddhist monks and laypeople to meditate and many attained the various stages of awakening. Throughout Buddhist history, however, there's been major tension even within traditions between people who practice and others who do not. Generally only a tiny minority of Buddhists have meditated, and the current secular mindfulness trend in the West, where even non-Buddhists are doing vipassana, is extremely unusual. There are many wayward threads of Buddhist dogma and associated teachers who de-emphasize the importance or efficacy of meditation for laypeople, which is disempowering and harmful, to the extent that it's possibly worse than misrepresenting any other aspect of Buddhism. The core of the Buddhist path is the knowledge, pursuit, and actualization of winning indestructible happiness and peace through meditation. Being Buddhist isn't pointless if you don't practice, but you do sacrifice 99% of the benefit for basically no reason. The superficial differences between schools, and which one you pick, are much less important than whether you meditate. The Buddha said the foremost advantage on the spiritual path is associating with worthy people who have developed and are developing the eightfold path, including right effort and right concentration (meditation). So above all try to stick with and learn from Buddhists who actually meditate and are devoted to the actualization of the path. Even if you choose not to meditate much or don't have time, they'll rub off on you.
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Jun 27, 2014 04:55
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It matters to me Took a long time to get here If it would have been easy I would not have cared Like a tropical forest Like a cop on the beat When all is in order You get lost in the heat I feel so wonderful, wonderful, wonderful the way I feel I feel so wonderful, wonderful, wonderful the way I feel Doesn't matter to me I could take it or leave it I could learn from way back when And still live right now With the sun on my shoulder And the wind in my back I will never grow older At least not in my mind I feel so wonderful, wonderful, wonderful the way I feel I feel so wonderful, wonderful, wonderful the way I feel So wonderful, wonderful the way I feel I feel so wonderful, wonderful, wonderful the way I feel I'm going where there ain't no fear I'm going where the spirit is near I'm going where the living is easy And the people are kind A new state of mind I'm going where there ain't no police I'm going where there ain't no disease I'm going where there ain't no need To escape from what is Only spirits at ease some song lyrics that remind me of nirvana enlgihtent and the buddha
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Jun 27, 2014 05:10
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Popcornicus posted:Applying the term "Hinayana" to the Theravada school is pejorative. Substituting the term "Theravada" where the formulation originally said "Hinayana" has the same meaning, Theravada = Hinayana. It would be best to use the term "Hinayana" wherever the original source said "Hinayana" and do the same for the term "Theravada"; that way the two never get mixed up. Although I just wrote a six-paragraph essay on the topic for some reason, I wasn't personally offended (unless some part of me is still mad about the Daniel Ingram fiasco), it's just something to watch out for. I am in agreement here, I have always used Hinayana to refer to the Hinayana, specifically meaning the path of renunciation without the doctrine of emptiness and so on. I somewhat disagree that it is a pejorative in any situation, if indeed Theravada is a Hinayana path. I was under the impression it was, and it was almost entirely a strictly monastic tradition supported by laity who are working to accumulate the merit to earn a rebirth as a monk so they can attain Arhatship and peace out of this Samsara. But I admit my only knowledge of Theravada comes from the posts of our Theravada brethren in this thread and brief introductions in media here and there*. As for the bits on meditation, I strongly agree that meditation is essential to Buddhism. I hold that both meditation and conduct are critical, and one without the other is useless. The great masters agree, I believe. Vajrayana emphasizes Wisdom and Method. Meditation constitutes cultivation of Wisdom. Without attaining stability in meditation, one cannot attain stability in the Mahamudra/Dzogchen or realization of prajnaparamita. How can you attain meditative stability without meditation? However, practicing only meditation, without the cultivation of Bodhicitta, results only in rebirth as a formless god. Similarly, practicing only meritorious action, without any wisdom, results in rebirth as a formed god. Both of these practices are excellent, and it's never wrong to practice either one, but both should be practiced together, with the motivation to attain bodhicitta, for best result. I really think we're on the same page here. * There is are two great documentaries on Netflix, one of them I believe is just called "The Buddha" and is a wonderful biographic on Gautama Buddha. The other is "Journey into Buddhism" which shows a lot of the various cultures that practice Buddhism, their holy sites, and so on. Incidentally, regarding the Ingram fiasco, I really hope there are no hard feelings here. I think we'd best not revisit the topic here, but I think no less of you for it and I hope this is mutual. I really respect and am thankful for the perspective and incisive insight you bring to this thread.
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Jun 27, 2014 05:19
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Dr.Caligari posted:I am only on page 2 of this thread, but I am going to skip ahead and ask my questions and a little bit about my circumstances. Successful at what? what are you looking for? Esoteric knowledge isn't what you are thinking about or what pertains to your experience. In regards to Buddhism keep in mind there are only a miniscule number of serious meditators in the west compared back to the exponentially larger number of serious practitioners of mystical buddhist traditions in the east (Tibet, Thailand, Burma, India etc..). Couple that with language/cultural barrier and the complete lack of exposure and off the cuff casual dismissal of disbelief and it is to see why most people won't understand or will never in their entire life-times ever witness a real life miracle. It will be pretty obvious what esoteric teachings work when you do witness the fruits of the practice most obviously displays of paranormal abilities. ie: monk sitting in car vanishing then re-appearing back in his monsastery in an instant, monk standing on the top of a jet engine while being seated in his cabin at the same time, flying monk, telepathy, ESP, etc.. etc.. These are the sort of displays (more of the former) that are impossible to duplicate with a sleight of hand and dismissal, unless you want to check into the psych ward to preserve a materialistic view of the universe. ickbar fucked around with this message at 08:16 on Jun 27, 2014 |
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Jun 27, 2014 08:10
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Alright, I'm going to jump in here because you both are wrong and confused about theravada and hinayana. Theravada IS "Hinayana", insofar as the term is being used. Hinayana is an antiquated and derogatory term used by Mahayanists and Vajrayanists to discuss a group of Schismatics. However, what the term means is those buddhists that reject the turnings of the wheel of dharma and reject the bodhisattva ideal. It refers to Sravakayana paths. Both Theravada and the Mahayana/Vajrayana recognize the path of the Pratyekabuddha as a thing. There is an argument made by Theravadins that they are not "hinayana" because it is argued that "hinayana" refers to the sthaviravada, sautrantrika and sarvastivada (among other lesser, similar schools). All of which are now defunct and dead. This argument does not work- While mahayanists found major doctrinal defuncts among these schools (perhaps contributing to calling them lesser vehicle) the accusation of lesser-vehicle hood is levied in practise against the foundational aspects of mahayana which essentially constitutes what Theravadins would call orthodox buddhism. Discipleship, or Sravakayana. "Hearing" the buddha's dharma. Meaning to focus on attainment through study of the pali canon and resultant drive to Arahatship. Theravada does have Bodhisattas, but these are distinct from mahayana. They might be folk figures or leftover from when these countries were mahayana and incorporated into the folk practises. But mostly a Theravada usage of bodhisatta is for one that will become a buddha. Someone about to attain Paccekabuddhahood would be a Paccekabodhisatta. Prior to his birth as Gautama, Shakyamuni was a bodhisatta. It has naught to do with the bodhisatta ideal really. Theravada also descends from the Sthaviravadins, which were one of the schools denigrated as "Hinayana". Further, ven. Xuanzhang even called them as much when he'd made his trip to sri lanka. Theravada is not a suitable stand-in for "hinayana". Hinayana is an awful term to use for Sravakayana. Theravadins are fine calling mahaynists heretics and practitioners of adharma, just do likewise with Theravada if you insist on being petty and schismatic. Theravada does have progressions that are reserved for later and more practised students- It is not esoteric mystical wizard practises like you find in Vajrayana. It does feature a teacher student relationship- but this is more akin to discipleship than a guru relationship. These are just things that are in every buddhism, Finally, to say this- None of this is meant to disparage Theravada or Sravakayana. Even the most Hinayana-sing Vajrayanist would call it a foundational thing that you're meant to build upon.
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Jun 27, 2014 08:30
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ickbar posted:Successful at what? what are you looking for? Well, successful at completing or pursuing whatever their goals are in Buddhism. As far what I am looking for, I have yet to decide a path, which in itself will determine how 'successful' I will be as a at-home practitioner. At this point I am focused on learning, learning, learning and also committing at least 15 minutes in the morning to meditation. I'm working my way reading through this whole thread, and I also started reading Peace in Every Step, which I find most inspirational. I really need to get to reading some of the online resources mentioned and start learning the structure and prominent characters, so that maybe I can start understand a lot of this thread better ickbar posted:Esoteric knowledge isn't what you are thinking about or what pertains to your experience. In regards to Buddhism keep in mind there are only a miniscule number of serious meditators in the west compared back to the exponentially larger number of serious practitioners of mystical buddhist traditions in the east (Tibet, Thailand, Burma, India etc..). Couple that with language/cultural barrier and the complete lack of exposure and off the cuff casual dismissal of disbelief and it is to see why most people won't understand or will never in their entire life-times ever witness a real life miracle. I did not mean to trivialize esoteric knowledge. I have a very open mind about things , and the types of abilities you speak of do interest me. I also meant no disrespect toward the institution of Freemasonry. The lessons are rich with meaning , and the York Rite degrees in particular are fascinating.
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Jun 27, 2014 15:20
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Dr.Caligari posted:Well, successful at completing or pursuing whatever their goals are in Buddhism. As far what I am looking for, I have yet to decide a path, which in itself will determine how 'successful' I will be as a at-home practitioner. At this point I am focused on learning, learning, learning and also committing at least 15 minutes in the morning to meditation. I'm working my way reading through this whole thread, and I also started reading Peace in Every Step, which I find most inspirational. I really need to get to reading some of the online resources mentioned and start learning the structure and prominent characters, so that maybe I can start understand a lot of this thread better Well alot of the advice given is a fairly sound start. I'm not as knowledgeble as some others here who would be keen to help in that area, but I'd first start by keeping the 8 precepts. (Or ten commandments, or whatever you want to call a relatively consensus based ethics and morality) quote:
It is definitely interesting to me as well, but from what I know like I said earlier in this thread, there are a specific subset of superpowers/paranormal which are straight out of a comic book or movie. ( Teleportation, Bi-location, indefinite life extension aka immortality, phasing in and out of multiple dimensions (moving through walls, mountains, walking on water, etc... etc..), manifesting reality (?)) (Funny doesn't any of this remind you of Jesus?) In Buddhism, the theory goes that all these powers are achievable with the right training by virtually anybody, but in reality only an extremely extremely few number of practicing Buddhists are capable of this because it requires an extremely advanced state of spiritual development, through innumerable lifetimes of spiritual training and development from the life lessons we go through, we call this Parami or I think a persons level of spiritual attainments they bring with them from previous lives. Basically in short the Buddhist Masters who have achieved what we called Aranhanthood or Boddhisatva level of spiritual development are pretty much the only ones (and the Buddha himself) capable of (some/most/all) of these abilities. The Buddha himself represents I think to all Buddhists regardless of sect or denomination, the very pinnacle of evolution in terms of human and spiritual development. Which means that he himself could also be considered at the time literally the most potent "Psychic" person on the planet and what we see in the Sutras of the Buddha psychic powers maybe only a fraction of what he is really capable of achieving if he weren't so reluctant to display them. Vipassana while they state it doesn't lead directly to powers as it is normally practiced merely only for the sake of enlightment, the process of percieving reality outside of the intellect, is in itself a significant paranormal power which goes hand in hand with gaining other powers that may come automatically such as ESP, Telepathy, reading past Karma etc... etc..). Which is why even some Zen masters who do not aim for paranormal powers eventually get them anyway whether they like it or not! Vipassana is mainly Theravada and other orthodox sects of buddhism put this as the focus of their spiritual practice as their goal is only to attain enlightment, but the more mystical ones will actually put more the locus of their attention on Sammatha or concentration meditation which is what they consider the type of meditation that is the "shortcut" to gaining paranormal powers. (along with Mantras and other magical practices designed to aid acquisition of paranormal powers). The goal of the mystical sects is not to acquire these powers for the sake of acquiring them but only for purposes relevant to the goal of Buddhism in aiding other people and keeping the Dharma alive atleast until the advent of the next Buddha. In short the real practice of Buddhism (all forms of meditation, prayers, or everything that go beyond mere religious devotion) is essentially training to become a "Psychic" with a capital P even if buddhists claim something else or believe otherwise because that is what it will eventually all lead to at some point. (results of course vary according to mileage and intensity of practice) The examples I had given to you before (monk teleporting out of car, Jet Engine monk) are reportadly real events that have happened.
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Jun 29, 2014 09:31
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Dr.Caligari posted:Well, successful at completing or pursuing whatever their goals are in Buddhism. As far what I am looking for, I have yet to decide a path, which in itself will determine how 'successful' I will be as a at-home practitioner. At this point I am focused on learning, learning, learning and also committing at least 15 minutes in the morning to meditation. I'm working my way reading through this whole thread, and I also started reading Peace in Every Step, which I find most inspirational. I really need to get to reading some of the online resources mentioned and start learning the structure and prominent characters, so that maybe I can start understand a lot of this thread better
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Jun 29, 2014 10:29
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ickbar posted:Well alot of the advice given is a fairly sound start. I'm not as knowledgeble as some others here who would be keen to help in that area, but I'd first start by keeping the 8 precepts. (Or ten commandments, or whatever you want to call a relatively consensus based ethics and morality) This. The Five Precepts are the foundation of the practice of most layperson's practices. It is not even essential to take all of them at once. Do however many as you can. There are practitioners who carry five, four, three, even one precept. Just do what you can do. Notably the Five Precepts are not really "commandments," but observed behaviors that reduce suffering for self and others. They are training precepts, things to do that will improve your lives and the lives of those around you, but there is no thread of judgment or punishment for failure to keep them, just do better next time, or at the very least, observe how failing to keep the precept has caused you suffering. quote:In Buddhism, the theory goes that all these powers are achievable with the right training by virtually anybody, but in reality only an extremely extremely few number of practicing Buddhists are capable of this because it requires an extremely advanced state of spiritual development, through innumerable lifetimes of spiritual training and development from the life lessons we go through, we call this Parami or I think a persons level of spiritual attainments they bring with them from previous lives. I'm going to contest this and a few other points you've made in this. The paramitas are perfections, the six paramitas are generosity, patience, moral discipline, diligence, concentration, and wisdom. They are unrelated to psychic powers or anything like that. That said, attaining the perfections can lead to the manifestation of those kinds of things. They are not in any way a goal, even to help benefit sentient beings, but rather just a thing that happens. Attaining the perfections is the work of various Bhumis, or levels of a bodhisattva's development. Additionally, to say that psychic abilities, or magical powers, or so on is the sole domain of Bodhisattvas and so on is in error, but the pursuit of siddhis for the sake of siddhis is sorcery, and not an aspect of dharma. Milarepa, the great yogi of Tibet, was a black magic using sorcerer before he renounced it and turned to Dharma. The existence of magic and so on is historically belonging to everyone, it's just that, like with magic in the Bible, when it's done as part of Buddhist practice it's always more powerful in scripture. This isn't to make an argument about whether those things are "real" or not, that, too, is largely irrelevant. Within scripture that kind of stuff is present, but it's present in most religions. I would really advise against making it central to any description of Buddhism, because it makes us come across as a bunch of kooks when such is really not the case. Believing in psychic powers, let alone practicing them, is certainly not central to nor essential for Buddhist practice. quote:The Buddha himself represents I think to all Buddhists regardless of sect or denomination, the very pinnacle of evolution in terms of human and spiritual development. Which means that he himself could also be considered at the time literally the most potent "Psychic" person on the planet and what we see in the Sutras of the Buddha psychic powers maybe only a fraction of what he is really capable of achieving if he weren't so reluctant to display them. Defining a Buddha as such isn't fruitful. A Buddha is omniscient, perfectly able to understand cause and effect, but defining a Buddha as a powerful psychic is not really accurate, and saying they have unspeakable power that they don't demonstrate out of reluctance is also problematic. Psychic powers are often discouraged to display or use in Buddhist practice because they are a temptation that can cause grasping and so on. Power is not something to be pursued or even worried about. quote:Vipassana while they state it doesn't lead directly to powers as it is normally practiced merely only for the sake of enlightment, the process of percieving reality outside of the intellect, is in itself a significant paranormal power which goes hand in hand with gaining other powers that may come automatically such as ESP, Telepathy, reading past Karma etc... etc..). Which is why even some Zen masters who do not aim for paranormal powers eventually get them anyway whether they like it or not! This part is accurate. Psychic power or whatever is never a goal, but it can be a result. It's like when working on a farm. If you work on a farm for a few months, you will get swole as hell and be better at other things. The goal of working on the farm isn't to get swole, but it's a result that naturally comes along. quote:Vipassana is mainly Theravada and other orthodox sects of buddhism put this as the focus of their spiritual practice as their goal is only to attain enlightment, but the more mystical ones will actually put more the locus of their attention on Sammatha or concentration meditation which is what they consider the type of meditation that is the "shortcut" to gaining paranormal powers. (along with Mantras and other magical practices designed to aid acquisition of paranormal powers). The goal of the mystical sects is not to acquire these powers for the sake of acquiring them but only for purposes relevant to the goal of Buddhism in aiding other people and keeping the Dharma alive atleast until the advent of the next Buddha. This isn't accurate at all, really. Shamatha is the basis of all meditation because without meditative stability Vipassana is much more difficult. Single-pointed concentration or contemplative meditation is much more difficult if you can't just sit for 20 seconds without discursive thought or distraction arising. So shamatha isn't practiced in Vajrayana as a "shortcut to magic powers," but like all Vajrayana practice, it's practiced as part of a step by step process towards liberation. Vajrayana can be considered sort of "min/maxing" Buddhism, with step by step details laid out in order to gain the best effect most rapidly. Shamatha is a step-stone to other meditation, with the idea being that if you can practice calm-abiding successfully, the other meditations will be better. Within Mahamudra and Dzogchen, fully attaining calm abiding is also more or less the complete path, but that's another topic. The mystical traditions of Buddhism also do not make attaining siddhis a goal. In fact, the teachings I've received indicate that siddhis are a distraction, and that they certainly need to be tested because such powers can even result from Maras deceiving you to distract you from the path. Meditators who develop magical powers are told basically to not focus on them at all and ignore them. There is no agenda to learn, for example, clairvoyance in order to help sentient beings. The best way to help sentient beings is to attain liberation. Therefore, Vajrayana is a step by step method of attaining Buddhahood, and siddhis are not even secondary to that, siddhis are never a goal, even in the mystical traditions that fully acknowledge magical powers and use them (such as Tibetan Buddhism, which openly practices divination and so on). quote:In short the real practice of Buddhism (all forms of meditation, prayers, or everything that go beyond mere religious devotion) is essentially training to become a "Psychic" with a capital P even if buddhists claim something else or believe otherwise because that is what it will eventually all lead to at some point. (results of course vary according to mileage and intensity of practice) This is a huge distraction from the path. According to His Holiness, the Dalai Lama, the "real practice of Buddhism" is simply compassion and lovingkindness. Psychic phenomena are simply phenomena and emptiness. Pursuing them is an impermanent pursuit, it is not ultimately rewarding. The real practice of Buddhism is the Noble Eightfold Path. Even in the mystic, Vajrayana traditions, psychic powers are not at all important or cared about. Just because some yogis might develop siddhis does not mean that that is the essence of their path, just as some farmhands getting super swole working the farm does not make getting swole the essence of farm labor.
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Jun 29, 2014 19:48
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Wouldn't Tibetan vajrayana be the only school left that actually incorporates arhat concerns? I thought a big part of the book of the dead (which I gave up on when I realized how little foundational dogma I understood) was about teaching people to game karma and secure auspicious reincarnations.
Sithsaber fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Jun 30, 2014 |
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Jun 30, 2014 21:28
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Gaming karma to optimize rebirths is a huge part of the exercise in min/maxing Buddhism that is the Vajrayana. Things like Phowa, where one practices and trains so that they have an enlightenment parachute, basically so they can try to attain in the last seconds of life and in the bardo, or at least again Dewachen, are a big part of Vajrayana. In a nutshell, Tibetan Buddhism goes "we know how all this poo poo works, let's make it work for us." We know having lots of merit helps remove obstacles, so rather than try to attain all labor intensive, start with merit accumulation practices, 100,000 prostrations, 100,000 mandala offerings, 100,000 guru supplications. We know obstacles come from negative karma, so as part of those practices, let's do literally 100,000 purification mantras. Those are the preliminary practices for tantra. Vajrayana is all about min/maxing and gaming the system.
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Jun 30, 2014 21:40
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Paramemetic posted:Gaming karma to optimize rebirths is a huge part of the exercise in min/maxing Buddhism that is the Vajrayana. Things like Phowa, where one practices and trains so that they have an enlightenment parachute, basically so they can try to attain in the last seconds of life and in the bardo, or at least again Dewachen, are a big part of Vajrayana. In a nutshell, Tibetan Buddhism goes "we know how all this poo poo works, let's make it work for us." We know having lots of merit helps remove obstacles, so rather than try to attain all labor intensive, start with merit accumulation practices, 100,000 prostrations, 100,000 mandala offerings, 100,000 guru supplications. We know obstacles come from negative karma, so as part of those practices, let's do literally 100,000 purification mantras. Those are the preliminary practices for tantra. Vajrayana is all about min/maxing and gaming the system. Isn't there a danger that the monks will stop short of severing the tethers and hjust stick to being "benevolent" monk kings and asura prescients?(I forget the Tibetan equivalent but I remember that Dorje shugden is a chief example)
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Jun 30, 2014 21:49
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It is really important that everything in Vajrayana be done with the heart of bodhicitta and pure motivation or it's very likely to be a problem. You become a deity or something like that if you again merit without wisdom. So yes, Vajrayana is a more dangerous path than the others. My Khenpo teaches that the different vehicles are like this: the Hinayana is like a car, it gets one person there and not very fast. The Mahayana is like a bus, it gets everyone there, but still not very fast. The Vajrayana is like a plane: it gets you there really fast, but when you crash, you crash spectacularly.
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Jun 30, 2014 21:53
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Paramemetic posted:I would really advise against making it central to any description of Buddhism, because it makes us come across as a bunch of kooks when such is really not the case. I speak for only myself, even without any of my posts people reading about all the other stuff here would have already been scared witless by all the mystical talk and run out of the thread. and who or what defines what kook is anyway? and why is it so important to care about what they think? Nobody here is prolestyzing for converts and I certainly am not. Rather I think a society that conditions people to adhere strictly to a dogmatic materialistic view of the universe is the real problem here and it is why people have so much difficulty accepting concepts such as "rebirth" and "karma", inspite of some very compelling evidence and testimony you can find all over the place. As for everyone else what I say should not reflect on anyone else on this forum. So you have nothing to worry about, That is all. quote:This is a huge distraction from the path. According to His Holiness, the Dalai Lama, the "real practice of Buddhism" is simply compassion and lovingkindness. Psychic phenomena are simply phenomena and emptiness. Pursuing them is an impermanent pursuit, it is not ultimately rewarding. The real practice of Buddhism is the Noble Eightfold Path. Even in the mystic, Vajrayana traditions, psychic powers are not at all important or cared about. Just because some yogis might develop siddhis does not mean that that is the essence of their path, just as some farmhands getting super swole working the farm does not make getting swole the essence of farm labor. Well that's the point I was trying to make earlier on in my post, but I like to put it across in a different way because I feel that some of the real issues really do come down to "matter over mind" or "mind over matter". Of course everyone is free to pursue what to adopt and what to believe and what to reject, but unfortunately the latter concept "mind over matter" is central to alot of the Buddhist doctrine and we are living in a day and age (unlike the Buddhas time) where real life examples are virtually non-existent in people's experience in the west. Then also reinforced by societal conditioning and stigmatization and even mentioning the concept of rebirth will scare alot of people away. It may not be a very "conventional" or traditional way to think, but we are living in different times and I really believe that in this day and age, and that on some level people need to see that they are real and such experiences really do exist outside of mundane experience otherwise you'll get what you get and they'll just look at some of the stuff in the sutras and then say to themselves "wtf is this crazy poo poo".
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Jun 30, 2014 22:12
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Someone explain gankyil. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gankyil
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Jun 30, 2014 22:21
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Sithsaber posted:Someone explain gankyil. Looks a lot like the Korean Sam-Taegeuk, http://www.semiryu.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/semiryufinal.pdf (interesting read about pre-Buddhist Korean philosophy, Taoism, dualism, and the Taegeuk shape). Ultimately it's one of those symbols that is repeated across so many cultures and represents so many different things that to prescribe one meaning for it would be to tell only a partial truth. It's similar to the yin-yang, the swastika, the cross. The Wiki article went over some interesting Buddhist interpretations of it, the article I linked goes into Taoist and shamanistic interpretations. Celtic triskele: 
ashgromnies fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Jun 30, 2014 |
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Jun 30, 2014 23:20
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Is anyone here familiar with Shingon Buddhism? I'm looking for some good recommendations as to books to learn more about this school. I am familiar with the idea that it is "esoteric" Buddhism from the lineage of the cosmic Buddha Mahavairocana, that it places heavy emphasis on mantra, that it is popular in Japan... and that's about it. I know that there are things I cannot know because I am not a disciple, but I'd like to learn more about the teachings available to the laity.
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Jun 30, 2014 23:41
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Paramemetic posted:My Khenpo teaches that the different vehicles are like this: the Hinayana is like a car, it gets one person there and not very fast. The Mahayana is like a bus, it gets everyone there, but still not very fast. The Vajrayana is like a plane: it gets you there really fast, but when you crash, you crash spectacularly. Can you elaborate more on this? I guess the vehicles ultimate goal is enlightenmen/bodhicitta? What do you mean crash? As in, if you act outside of a precept, there is heavy penalty, where as the other vehicles are more forgiving on breaking precepts? Can someone recommend a book that will help me understand the 'structure' and technical (sanskrit?) terms that are used in this thread? Researching on the internet so far has been very overwhelming. Even when trying to learn about one topic, I often come across things I don't know, which leads me to stop what I'm reading to research that, on and on. I am heading to Barnes and Noble tomorrow, and plan to spend some time in the Buddhism section. e;Has any of you ever experimented with a sensory deprivation tank? I have been to one before, and am going again tomorrow. Last time I went, I had a very pleasant experience. For the rest of the week it seemed my concentration was sharper. I am wondering what kind of experience a veteran meditator would have in one. Dr.Caligari fucked around with this message at 02:36 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jun 30, 2014 23:45
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Incarnate Dao posted:Is anyone here familiar with Shingon Buddhism? I'm looking for some good recommendations as to books to learn more about this school. I am familiar with the idea that it is "esoteric" Buddhism from the lineage of the cosmic Buddha Mahavairocana, that it places heavy emphasis on mantra, that it is popular in Japan... and that's about it. I know that there are things I cannot know because I am not a disciple, but I'd like to learn more about the teachings available to the laity. I know zero about Shingon, but Hokai Sobol is an advanced Shingon practitioner. He might be able to recommend books and other resources. Here's his contact page.
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Jul 1, 2014 03:03
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ickbar posted:I speak for only myself, even without any of my posts people reading about all the other stuff here would have already been scared witless by all the mystical talk and run out of the thread. It's not just the kookiness, it's also the fact that the point of Buddhism is not to become a powerful psychic wizard. A lot of people, especially those attracted to Vajrayana, make attaining siddhis some kind of focus or goal. It's not only not something that should be a focus or goal, it's not even central. quote:Well that's the point I was trying to make earlier on in my post, but I like to put it across in a different way because I feel that some of the real issues really do come down to "matter over mind" or "mind over matter". The point was kind of obfuscated, perhaps, because in addition to saying "you shouldn't focus on these things as central" you also said "but literally it is the entire point to do these things." That's where I got hung up on it. "You shouldn't focus on the attainment of psychic powers, but the entire path is basically all about psychic powers, and they're definitely essential to it" is a weird mixed message. Regarding "mind over matter," you're right. This is a really important aspect both directly in terms of metaphysics and in practice, in that visualization exercises and manifesting a visualization, and the visualizations being considered to be equal to the actual reality because emptiness is emptiness, and so on. But taking "mind over matter" and extrapolating it into "everyone should do psychic things" is problematic. quote:It may not be a very "conventional" or traditional way to think, but we are living in different times and I really believe that in this day and age, and that on some level people need to see that they are real and such experiences really do exist outside of mundane experience otherwise you'll get what you get and they'll just look at some of the stuff in the sutras and then say to themselves "wtf is this crazy poo poo". Tibetan Buddhism believes in a sort of "collective karma" that affects all of us. Rinpoche has taught that the reason we don't have things like wish-fulfilling gems and with fulfilling cows and so on these days is because our collective karma no longer supported their arising. Instead, he says, we now have the karma of "technology things," which are still good but not as good as wish-granting gems. I wonder if this isn't related to the generally materialist wont of the world today. But really, it doesn't matter. I just think any kind of focus on side-effects over the real, intended effects is goofy. If you want to become a powerful psychic, Buddhism will not be fulfilling. If you want to liberate from Samsara, and benefit sentient beings, then Buddhism will be very helpful. Sithsaber posted:Someone explain gankyil. That's a good explanation of it right there on that wiki? It's a symbol of triune nature and one-ness. It represents a bunch of things, and depending on tradition and sect and even context, and so on, can be interpreted a lot of ways. Dr.Caligari posted:Can you elaborate more on this? I guess the vehicles ultimate goal is enlightenmen/bodhicitta? What do you mean crash? As in, if you act outside of a precept, there is heavy penalty, where as the other vehicles are more forgiving on breaking precepts? Nah, Vajrayana is equally forgiving on precepts, and in fact tends to appear more forgiving (some tantric rituals involve the consumption of alcohol, among other things), though it's not really. I do not know much, and can't speak for the teacher, but what I remember it is more because the karmic results of the Tantrayana are heavier, and it's easier to "crash." If, for example, you practice the Vajrayana without the heart of Bodhicitta, it is possible to become very powerful, but without right motivation, this will wreck you much worse than not practicing Vajrayana at all. It is also really, really easy to get confused in Vajrayana compared to other paths, or misled, or so on. I cannot speak for the teacher, but I can give some examples of problems you could have with Vajrayana that you wouldn't have with other traditions. For example, if you are performing deity yogas, you might perform a wrathful deity practice without proper motivation or preparation. This can cause the arising of afflictive emotions. Because you're performing a yoga, you might think this anger and hatred is "good" because it is Dharma, and you might embrace these afflictive emotions. If you are performing deity yoga, maybe a peaceful or compassionate deity, you might arise feelings that are really pleasurable and good. Then maybe you'll think "oh, this is soooo pleasant, it must be nirvana, maybe I've attained!" Then your practice will become delusional. And, speaking of that, one reason the Vajrayana was the last turning of the wheel is the teaching of the Buddha-nature. Buddha taught many different paths, and he taught in order the Four Noble Truths and the path of renunciation, then he taught emptiness, finally, he taught Buddha-nature. These were taught in this order because if they are in another order, it is easy to be confused. For example, some people hear about Buddha-nature before they really believe in the Four Noble Truths and Emptiness. Without that understanding first, they think "oh, see, I'm already a Buddha, I've already attained. We all are Buddhas and since I know that, all my behaviors are those of a Buddha! Everyone else just doesn't realize they're already a Buddha!" This can be a huge problem in your practice and can ruin your practice for many lifetimes. Vajrayana also hinges on the concept of emptiness. When introduced to emptiness with a mind that is not prepared, it often leads to nihilism. Nihilism is very dangerous because while it is easy to refute eternalism, it is difficult to cure nihilism. So again it can be dangerous because it is possible to be confused easily. If you practice the same formula as above, for accumulation of merit, you will remove many obstacles. Accumulating merit is accumulating merit. Some people have very easy lives without many obstacles, and things seem to come very easily to those people, and they are born with a lot of money and so on, because of their merit in past lives. So if you accumulate merit, things will be much easier for you, it doesn't matter what you're trying to do. If you have the right motivation, and have given birth to Bodhicitta, and are following the path, then all that accumulated merit will be a great support. If however you have a wrong motivation, like maybe you want lots of money or lots of personal power, you'll get that, too, but that will only serve as a fetter that makes the path more difficult. So that's another way Vajrayana is "dangerous."
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Jul 1, 2014 05:42
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Paramemetic posted:
Look i'm not advocating for anything, but I am saying that prayer and meditation are all essentially forms of psychic training, yes that includes other religions like Christianity where saints have the same abilities as well (you were making this point for me earlier). So yes practicing all forms of religion is psychic training. The efficacy of course will vary from one religion to another and case by case basis. And I have said it over in my previous post that the potency and efficacy of those psychic powers is directly influenced by one's spiritual development or their practice towards being better people and getting closer to Nibbana. It's not one or the other like you think I am saying, but both go hand in hand together. In fact it's quoted in one of the sutra's by the Buddha himself, that those who are highly spiritually developed will have powers that are far more potent than your average psychic. quote:Tibetan Buddhism believes in a sort of "collective karma" that affects all of us. Rinpoche has taught that the reason we don't have things like wish-fulfilling gems and with fulfilling cows and so on these days is because our collective karma no longer supported their arising. Instead, he says, we now have the karma of "technology things," which are still good but not as good as wish-granting gems. I wonder if this isn't related to the generally materialist wont of the world today. But really, it doesn't matter. I just think any kind of focus on side-effects over the real, intended effects is goofy. If you want to become a powerful psychic, Buddhism will not be fulfilling. If you want to liberate from Samsara, and benefit sentient beings, then Buddhism will be very helpful. of course there is always an inherent danger to the practices of training siddhis, and it is wrong for somebody who is only concerned about siddhis is concerned, I'm not disagreeing there, Nor disagreeing to aspiring to the ideal intention of working only for enlightenment. You've got me figured wrong, i'm not telling anyone to focus on anything. There are other sects of Buddhism as well other than Tibetan buddhism that espouse different philosophies, and at the end of the day (atleast for me) all that really matters are the results. For the example I gave about the Jet Engine monk, that guy was not Tibetan Buddhist but he is a burmese abbot or Sayadaw from the Burmese Weikzar lineage which is completely obscure in the west. His name is Taungpulu sayadaw, the story goes that while the plane was in mid-flight the pilot saw a monk standing on top of the Jet Engine, and the found that he was also sitting in the cabin next to the wing. It wasn't just the pilot but passengers were also witnesses to the event. I believe the monk Taungpulu advised the crew that came to him, to land the plane at the nearest airport and check the engine that he(or hologram?) was standing on. When they reached the ground they found some kind of mechanical problem or malfunction with the engine that probably would have resulted in the airplane crashing on an extended flight and killing everyone. Is that Abbot a deranged bad guy using his powers of Bi-location to prevent a plane crash? That is what i'm talking about, especially concerning powers and using them properly. The Weikzar lineage of Buddhism, is similar to mahayana buddhism, but with different methodology and philosophy of use. Like you were saying earlier the practitioners of this mystical sect, also need to adhere to strict codes of conduct and set their intentions by taking vows to uphold the precepts. But some of the mystical practices they do at an advanced stage are specifically geared through use of (alchemy, inns, rituals, specialized mantras etc..) for gaining psychic powers, it isn't much of a secret atleast in Burma. We can go on and on with this Philosophy of use debate over and over but that is why we have separate schools of thought in Buddhism.
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Jul 1, 2014 09:22
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Excuse me ickbar, but what you are describing here has nothing to do with buddhism whatsoever. Not that i know what buddhism is about, ahahah ! But it's easy to tell that it's not about magical fantasies. I think telling these kind of stories in the "buddhism" thread might just give false ideas to newcomers. So, newcomers, if you want magical stories, just read your local trash newspaper about ufos and zombie cows, and leave buddhism out of the equation !
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Jul 1, 2014 12:57
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Ugrok posted:Excuse me ickbar, but what you are describing here has nothing to do with buddhism whatsoever. Not that i know what buddhism is about, ahahah ! But it's easy to tell that it's not about magical fantasies. I think telling these kind of stories in the "buddhism" thread might just give false ideas to newcomers. So, newcomers, if you want magical stories, just read your local trash newspaper about ufos and zombie cows, and leave buddhism out of the equation ! Should we really officially adhere to the sterilized Buddhism of the west? That being said, magic is obviously not a good focus.
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Jul 1, 2014 14:43
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It's not about sterilization or whatever ; it's just that it is completely irrelevant and of no interest at all for anyone who might get interested in buddhism.
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Jul 1, 2014 15:17
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I think we can all agree that Buddhism is about letting go of things rather than attaining them; whatever comes or goes - Buddhism is about the attitude to things and not the things themselves. If you meditate to become a wizard, you simply won't get anywhere because doing something to attain something is not meditating. If you meditate to let go of wanting to become a wizard, only then you might actually get somewhere. Edit: 'get somewhere' as in 'have some spiritual development', not 'being able to cast magic missiles'. Rhymenoceros fucked around with this message at 16:58 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 16:12
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Rhymenoceros posted:I think we can all agree that Buddhism is about letting go of things rather than attaining them; whatever comes or goes - Buddhism is about the attitude to things and not the things themselves. If you want to be a sorcerer turn to Bon or other crazy poo poo that promotes such shamanist activity.
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Jul 1, 2014 16:18
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If I want to be a wizard, I select that class in Blizzard's Diablo Three.
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Jul 1, 2014 16:27
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNNy172zofk
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Jul 1, 2014 20:57
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Ruddha posted:If I want to be a wizard, I select that class in Blizzard's Diablo Three. Everyone knows the true Buddhist path is monk. Demon-hunter if you're in a ngakpa lineage. 
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Jul 1, 2014 21:31
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Paramemetic posted:Everyone knows the true Buddhist path is monk. Demon-hunter if you're in a ngakpa lineage. To choose monk in d3, currently, is to relive the buddha's pre-enlightenment path; that is to say, ineffective in awakening, because causing yourself pain for no dang reason doesn't help you.
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Jul 2, 2014 05:48
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Diablo 3 is suffering.
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Jul 2, 2014 07:44
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Ugrok posted:Excuse me ickbar, but what you are describing here has nothing to do with buddhism whatsoever. Not that i know what buddhism is about, ahahah ! But it's easy to tell that it's not about magical fantasies. I think telling these kind of stories in the "buddhism" thread might just give false ideas to newcomers. So, newcomers, if you want magical stories, just read your local trash newspaper about ufos and zombie cows, and leave buddhism out of the equation ! Actually it does involve Buddhism in fact, it's just your attitude of disbelief that suggests to me a complete lack of experience (ignorance) in dealing with anything remotely close to things that are out of the mundane. Atleast Parametric, despite our differences is polite enough not to stoop to this level of talk in a Buddhism thread. I disagree about Newcomers, If newcomers come looking for the wrong things in Buddhism, they will be greatly shortchanged but in the process may discover the spiritual practice matters more anyway. Have you ever thought of it that way? Or do I have to follow the dogma that has been laid out for me by you and perhaps some others here, or else face veiled insults? Let me ask you some direct questions. Have you ever traveled to Asia? and met and talked with directly a number of high level Buddhist Masters? Do you have any direct experience with any of the siddhis or encountered them when you've met these people? Put that down on a checklist, then get back to me when you are ready to sit down for a debate. If you don't believe, it's fine to joke about magic stuff in the Buddhism thread, just don't aim it at people like myself with an intention of ill-will. If you ask me Buddhism is not much farther from crazy with talk of "Rebirth" and "Karma" and the other stuff in the sutras, any hardcore atheist worth his salt would put that on the same level as everything else and trash everyone in this thread. Sorry, I felt I had to address your post in a cogent way, but no hard feelings alright?
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Jul 3, 2014 05:59
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ickbar posted:Let me ask you some direct questions. Have you ever traveled to Asia? and met and talked with directly a number of high level Buddhist Masters? Do you have any direct experience with any of the siddhis or encountered them when you've met these people?
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Jul 3, 2014 06:17
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ickbar posted:Words Quantumfate fucked around with this message at 06:39 on Jul 3, 2014 |
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Jul 3, 2014 06:20
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Quantumfate posted:[quote="ickbar"]Words[/endquote] Perhaps, but a snide response as a reply is still not a friendly response. Of course I am not an expert on everything, and I agree with alot of things you say. Except for the last two sentences, to a "Buddhist" yes that would be applicable, but I was referring to the way mainstream people would view Buddhism that have not yet acculturated yet to the idea of Rebirth or Karma, especially hardcore atheist skeptics they'll see things very differently.
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Jul 3, 2014 06:34
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Cumshot in the Dark posted:Do you? If you have I'm sure we would like to hear about it. I'd like to, but I'll have to think about it carefully, because you know anyone can come out of the woodwork and ridicule or trash everything I have to say which are highly personel experiences. I may or may not come back to it later. Thank you for your interest anyway.
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Jul 3, 2014 06:41
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I would be more concerned that those yogins demonstrating the Rddhi would be doing so duplicitiously, or in violation of vows. It is very possibly an emanation of mara, or one of the asuras. Still, please do share your experiences.
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Jul 3, 2014 06:46
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