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"50 new posts, I wonder if there was an announcement about the next book. ...  "Okay new page. Those coins look like something I'd play with at my desk, which I can dig. I'm thinking of doing a reread of at least the name of the wind because Rothfuss' prose is great and makes it easy to breeze through the pages.
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Jun 27, 2014 04:49
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De-rail of the year, calling it now.
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Jun 27, 2014 04:56
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Sadly, all of the coins other than solo drabs are already sold out 
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Jun 27, 2014 05:37
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jivjov posted:Sadly, all of the coins other than solo drabs are already sold out Yes, but something that is pretty cool is that these coins are actually the version that existed something like 600 years before the books. There will be a new batch with a slightly updated design to be what the coins were like 300 years before the books. Presumably this will keep happening until they stop selling out almost instantly. When I said pretty cool, I might have meant incredibly nerdy.
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Jun 27, 2014 09:13
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I read the first book 5 years ago and barely remember it, should I read the second one?
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Jun 27, 2014 13:15
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Daltos you're just mad that the people with that gang tag didn't ask their black friends if it was okay for them to say it
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Jun 27, 2014 13:44
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If you barely remember it? Probably not worth reading, no. If the first one didn't stick to your ribs in a meaningful way, the sequel's probably not gonna rock your world either.
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Jun 27, 2014 14:13
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Hat Thoughts posted:I read the first book 5 years ago and barely remember it, should I read the second one? The second one is longer but in a way that makes it bloated, and is generally a step down from the first. So in other words I think it'd be best to wait for the last book to come out and see what people think then.
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Jun 27, 2014 15:01
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I personally liked the second book more than the first. It was bloated and skimming parts of it are more than acceptable, but the present day inn portions, the hunt for the bandits/fight, and the Maer portions (not to mention the nearly half book absence of Denna) makes it a pretty good read. Felurian and the Adem dragged on though.
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Jun 27, 2014 15:49
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Also, the moon story is maybe the greatest of the stories in the story in the story.
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Jun 27, 2014 15:53
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Doltos posted:I'm not sure if its part of Rothfuss's storytelling where every group of people acts identical to each other (posh nobles are all assholes, women are all self-confident creatures that want to bone him, all of Ademre are quiet warriors, all mercenaries and soldiers are greasy, thieving slobs, all villagers are mistrusting and hate outsiders, all musicians are talented and nice) or if it's the whole unreliable narrator thing where Kvothe is horribly biased. Ok, the only reason I'm not banning you for this is that everyone else has already done such a hilarious job of humiliating you. Don't post about the Roma again in this forum.
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Jun 27, 2014 20:12
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Hat Thoughts posted:I read the first book 5 years ago and barely remember it, should I read the second one? I was meh on the first one and then audiobooked the second after a failed attempt to actually read it. It was not a good book, but I did actually find a lot of enjoyment in listening and reading the (quite negative) let's read here: http://ronanwills.wordpress.com/category/lets-read-twmf/. I'll probably go the third book if he decides to do a let's read for it, but then on occasion, I also like watching bad movies because they're bad. If you don't remember book one, book two is not going to blow your socks off, and there is plenty of better stuff you could be reading.
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Jun 28, 2014 14:48
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More than any other series, this one actually benefits from only reading the books once. Only once I re-read them did I realise just how hosed up Kvothe is as a character.
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Jun 29, 2014 09:48
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WastedJoker posted:More than any other series, this one actually benefits from only reading the books once.
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Jun 29, 2014 15:54
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Velius posted:Not to be overly contrary, but did you, you know, read the portions of the book that aren't retrospective? He's a washed up innkeeper, in hiding who is as much despised as the things he fought against. That's one of the more interesting parts of the story - he's brilliant, and yet flawed enough that he's his own worst enemy. Even if the telling of his tale redeems him somehow, he's still hit rock bottom, most of which will likely be his own fault. Quoting an ancient post here but I just started reading this thread having recently finished TNOTW and about halfway through TWMF. I agree completely and have a really hard time understanding what seems to be the most common criticism leveled at these books concerning Kvothe as a character. Did they miss the part where his life is in shambles and he can't even perform magic anymore (which admittedly isn't revealed until I think the last few chapters if I remember right). TNOTW took a while to hook me (I was reading just one chapter a night for a while, more out of some sense of obligation since I'd heard such good things about this book rather than really loving the story) but once it did I was hooked hard and I can hardly put TWMF down.
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Jun 30, 2014 15:03
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Ross posted:Quoting an ancient post here but I just started reading this thread having recently finished TNOTW and about halfway through TWMF. It depends whether he's a wreck because he was an idiot, or a wreck because did the right thing and Ambrose etc  stabbed him in the back, or he fell prey to a single nobly tragic flaw. I really hope Rothfuss makes it all pay off in the third book, and looking at all the hints and stuff I can't believe he doesn't have everything tightly planned and controlled. But on the other hand, some of those blog posts...(Also  at Roma being a 'serious problem'. They're a non-issue for the local paper to huff and puff about because they set up in someone's field and maybe petty crime went up a bit. Not the dreaded scourge of the Old World).
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Jun 30, 2014 17:00
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Ross posted:Quoting an ancient post here but I just started reading this thread having recently finished TNOTW and about halfway through TWMF. He's still an insufferable douche in the "present" parts. Also, he is depowereed but then goes off and does awesome stuff to reassure the reader that he's still great - killing all the spider-crabs in the first book by himself (a feat which impresses the, apparently, significantly powerful Bast). Hell, he's even set up as THE BEST INNKEEPER EVER. Since almost nothing has happened to advance the plot in two books, I think it's safe to assume this is going to be trilogy number 1 of the Kvothe saga, and I will be immensely surprised if he doesn't regain all/most of his power before this thing is all over. Bast has pretty much made it clear that this is not a permanent thing and he's just working on getting Kvothe back to how he used to be. At which point, he'll still be in his twenties having spent a couple years not being the best at everything. This doesn't really read to me as a washed up character. The problem with the character is he's good at pretty much everything, he's an arrogant poo poo, and he never grows as a character. 70% of the side characters are more interesting than him, but they all exist only to tell us how awesome Kvothe is or to be mean to him for no reason so he can beat them (proving how awesome he is). Also, how far are you in WMF? I ask because I think most people agree that TNOTW was the better of the two books, so it's a little weird to see you knock the first and praise the second. TNOTW had more good sections even if a nearly equal amount of nothing happened. But it didn't have Felurian and the Adem, which helps its case a lot. Going to the Velius quote, what flaws does he have as a character beyond being annoying and arrogant (traits that he clearly still retains in current time indicating no real growth)? Also, how is he washed up? I keep hammering this, but I'm not sure being wealthier than everyone else in his area while having an inn filled with exotic imports and mysterious magical items makes him washed up. If washed up means that he's no longer a magical god (through his innate superiority to boot, not really through earning it via hard work), then I don't really have a lot of sympathy for the guy. He's like a lottery winner who squandered their cash and now has to live a middle class lifestyle (abloo bloo bloo). It might be more believable if we as readers saw much of anything to indicate that he has changed from the Kvothe in the story he is telling. However, most of the shift is simply given to us by Bast via text (he changed so much! I need to fix him!). As readers we have to take his word for it because we aren't shown anything. Bast says that since Chronicler got there (like 99%+ of the story so far) he's been better so again, we're only told that he was broken down, we don't actually see it. If Kvothe has a character flaw it's his arrogance, which isn't actually changed at all between young Kvothe and slightly slightly less young Kvothe. This means his "downfall" is either due to something beyond his control (the magical tree hosed him over), a no win situation he found himself in (who blames someone for a Sophie's choice?), or it was due to his arrogance. If it's the last one and he recognizes this but makes no effort to change his character that makes him an rear end. If he doesn't recognize it, then to him, it's the same to him as if it was a circumstance beyond his control, but we as reads should recognize that he's just being lovely. Kvothe would have been a lot more interesting if he wasn't such a huge Mary Sue. If I was 12-14 when I was reading this, all of this would probably have been fine for me because I would have been satisfied with a character whose main defining trait was being good at everything so long as there were scenes of baddassness. Wish fulfillment characters aren't necessarily bad, but they are juvenile. My main personal issue with the books is how they get such wild praise as great works of art and are "big L" Literature. In reality, they're middling YA fiction (which is fine, but it isn't what I'm in the market for nor is it what they're sold as.)
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Jun 30, 2014 20:33
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I love these books. I had quit reading most fantasy lit for years after kind of overdosing on it as a kid, and even though Kvothe is such a goddamn Mary Sue and there are some maddening things about the book, somehow it jammed together some of the best things and the worst things about fantasy lit and made them new for me again. I like how magic works, and how it seems sensible and balanced, but the Naming still leaves some more mystery to it. I love Kvothe's relationship with music, and I loved his parents as characters, and how they interacted with him and with each other. I like Auri, even though she's ridiculous, and I LOVE reading people who criticize the books mimic her. I even like Kvothe, though he's loving exasperating. Some of the starvation-level poverty stuff felt really true to me. I was that student in college who was really, truly poor. It permeated everything. Rothfuss took something I'd given up on and made it fun. I confess I bought a Cealdish silver talent from the Worldbuilders site. It's pretty. edit: I think the Felurian section bothered me less than most people here. I'm an ex-Hare Krishna and a lot of the sexual things reminded me of Kama Sutra or Gita-Govinda. It doesn't strike me as particularly sexy, but I think that exposure made it feel less ridiculous or awkward to me. bitter almond fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Jun 30, 2014 |
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Jun 30, 2014 20:55
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bitter almond posted:I love these books. I had quit reading most fantasy lit for years after kind of overdosing on it as a kid, and even though Kvothe is such a goddamn Mary Sue and there are some maddening things about the book, somehow it jammed together some of the best things and the worst things about fantasy lit and made them new for me again. I like how magic works, and how it seems sensible and balanced, but the Naming still leaves some more mystery to it. I love Kvothe's relationship with music, and I loved his parents as characters, and how they interacted with him and with each other. I like Auri, even though she's ridiculous, and I LOVE reading people who criticize the books mimic her. I even like Kvothe, though he's loving exasperating. Some of the starvation-level poverty stuff felt really true to me. I was that student in college who was really, truly poor. It permeated everything. I don't think you're reading the book very critically. Kvothe is not "really, truly poor." Really, truly, poor people don't attend the most prestigious educational institution in ye olde world. He has two sources of income (being a virtuoso lute player and making magical loving devices). Given the setting, his life and means are wildly better than the vast majority of people in his world. In reality he's living a middle class to upper middle class life, but he's jealous of his rich friends. Can you point to any text in the Imre sections that show Kvothe going without food for long periods of time or lacking the materials he needs to complete his studies? If you have to work to go to college, you're still immensely privileged, particularly in ye olden times. Auri is presented as a mentally ill adult woman whose only complication is that she is compelled to talk in a quirky way. She's older than Kothe, yet he constantly infantalizes her. I think most people suspect that she is actually supposed to be one of the ameyr, but unless they all talk like that, it doesn't really excuse the infantalization (more so because almost all the women who are presented as attractive and contemporary to Kvothe are infatalized - even the ancient sex goddess). People aren't complaining about Felurian because they're prudes. They're complaining about the juvenile wish fulfillment the scene represents. Kvothe has sex with an ancient sex goddess of sex and death, not only does he live despite the fact that this act is supposed to kill men, but he also is so good at loving that he blows Felurian's mind. A 16 year old virgin has so utterly impressed an ancient creatures whose whole existence is sex-centric that she wants to take him on as an apprentice so that he can go out into the world and sex women really good. But, the text takes painstaking care to make sure the reader knows that he is already REALLY good at sex (having never done it before). If you think this isn't ridiculous, I'm going to assume you never had sex for the first time as a teenager. --- Again, the books aren't the worst thing ever, but they aren't particularly special. If you're really into magic systems read Sanderson. The guy is at least as obsessed with creating rules for his magic systems, but they cohere better than Pat's.
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Jun 30, 2014 21:20
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I didn't really find the Felurian and Adem stuff that awkward. I just found it incredibly boring and honestly a bit condescending. Just rambling off retarded names of sexual/fighting positions with no explanation of anything felt a lot like talking to someone who works in a different field than you and doesn't know how to make their story interesting. Like having to read 200 pages of me explaining annuity rider options.
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Jun 30, 2014 21:24
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Karnegal posted:--- Again, the books aren't the worst thing ever, but they aren't particularly special. If you're really into magic systems read Sanderson. The guy is at least as obsessed with creating rules for his magic systems, but they cohere better than Pat's. I feel like the difference between Sanderson and Rothfuss is that Rothfuss's magic system has more mystery to it. Sympathy is very technical but naming appears to be much more mysterious and abstract. I haven't read that much Sanderson but his magic can feel too mechanical to me sometimes.
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Jun 30, 2014 21:33
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Lyon posted:I feel like the difference between Sanderson and Rothfuss is that Rothfuss's magic system has more mystery to it. Sympathy is very technical but naming appears to be much more mysterious and abstract. I haven't read that much Sanderson but his magic can feel too mechanical to me sometimes. It sort of struck me more like he wanted to do a deconstruction of the genre so his magic is more sciency. Then he realized he wanted actual big impressive magic too, so threw in naming. That part seems more cribbed from Earthsea. Sympathy feels a lot like a Sanderson magic system to me.
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Jun 30, 2014 21:41
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Karnegal posted:I don't think you're reading the book very critically. Kvothe is not "really, truly poor." Really, truly, poor people don't attend the most prestigious educational institution in ye olde world. He has two sources of income (being a virtuoso lute player and making magical loving devices). Given the setting, his life and means are wildly better than the vast majority of people in his world. In reality he's living a middle class to upper middle class life, but he's jealous of his rich friends. Can you point to any text in the Imre sections that show Kvothe going without food for long periods of time or lacking the materials he needs to complete his studies? If you have to work to go to college, you're still immensely privileged, particularly in ye olden times. You're right, I'm really not reading them critically. Kvothe as a street rat was poor. Kvothe as a college kid (equivalent) was more financially insecure/unstable. There should be a distinction, and I guess I'm just too fond of my literary junk food here to do much intelligent commenting on it. The more I think about it, the more I wonder why I'm so willing to do that. I never thought people complained about Felurian because of prudishness, I thought it was more the silly names of sex acts (and, with the Ademre, fighting moves) that drove everyone crazy. What you're talking about (the teenaged virgin who is aMAZing at sex) was hard for me to (OH GOD I ALMOST WALKED INTO THAT PUN), um, suspend disbelief for, too. But I was used to hearing things that translate as "approaching tiger" and "splitting bamboo" and "the twining of the creeper" and "leaf of the blue lotus," from Ye Glorious Olde Bharat, so it just didn't register to me as any more ridiculous than that.
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Jun 30, 2014 22:33
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I'd say that Rothfuss' worldbuilding is better than Sanderson's, though. At least, the presentation of it is. I'd much rather read Abenthy giving Kvothe early lessons on sympathy than get "he utilized the sixteenth binding, the binding that allowed him to suspend due process and imprison people without charges and which did so by disrupting the bonds in the Legalium which made up the Laws" in combat scenes. EDIT: I always attributed Kvothe's blowing Felurian's mind more to his Naming her than to his sexual prowess.
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Jun 30, 2014 23:00
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Khizan posted:I'd say that Rothfuss' worldbuilding is better than Sanderson's, though. At least, the presentation of it is. Rothfuss's worldbuilding is pretty terrible. There's almost no sense of connection between any two places; it's all a bunch of monofocused set pieces like something out of a bad D&D setting. Here the party goes into Ninja Orgy Land, here the party arrives at Scheming Political Backstab Land, here are the Magic Free-Spirited Gypsies, here the party is going to Generic Fantasy Village, and so on and so forth for an entire novel. Rothfuss is however, for a lack of a more accurate description, probably a better writer than Sanderson. On a wordsmith level, that is. As someone else said above, the Name of the Wind is a novel that goes down really easily. On your first readthrough, it flows well enough that you're likely to ignore or just outright miss all of the flaws. These become much more apparent on rereads or taking the time to critically examine the book. I ultimately found the Wise Man's Fear super-disappointing because it fails to fix the flaws of the first book, adds new ones, and makes the flaws so opaque that unlike the first book, it's impossible to ignore them while reading it. quote:EDIT: I always attributed Kvothe's blowing Felurian's mind more to his Naming her than to his sexual prowess. Well, at first. Then it turns out that in addition to having a ten foot magic cock, he has a ten foot literal cock. There's certainly a lot of "he sex real good" no matter how you slice it, though. And since it's come up, the money stuff annoys me way more than the sex stuff. All of the Ninefold Lotus Thrusting is just sort of hilariously terrible and juvenile; the poverty situation tends to border on actually offensive. It could not be more apparent that Rothfuss is middle-class white guy who has never known an involuntary day of hardship in his life. The only genuinely affecting moment where Kvothe is actually a poor orphan is ripped from a million other fantasy novels; at every point past that, he's only poor by comparison to his super-rich friends, has multiple steady sources of large amounts of income, and has people practically tripping over themselves to give him money. His constant hand-wringing about money gets really, really annoying, really, really fast.
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Jun 30, 2014 23:24
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Yeah, Kvothe's situation in school doesn't really feel like he's poor. He's just not rich. Dude gets a pretty nice setup for room and board, when he starts out he gets paid to attend, etc etc. He's like the middle-class kid that gets a scholarship to a rich prep school.
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Jun 30, 2014 23:43
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bitter almond posted:You're right, I'm really not reading them critically. Oh, I didn't read your original post that way. I think most people found the secret technique names of sex moves to be goofy, but that's pretty far down on the list of problems with that section of the book.
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Jul 1, 2014 00:11
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Karnegal posted:He's still an insufferable douche in the "present" parts. Also, he is depowereed but then goes off and does awesome stuff to reassure the reader that he's still great - killing all the spider-crabs in the first book by himself (a feat which impresses the, apparently, significantly powerful Bast). Hell, he's even set up as THE BEST INNKEEPER EVER. Since almost nothing has happened to advance the plot in two books, I think it's safe to assume this is going to be trilogy number 1 of the Kvothe saga, and I will be immensely surprised if he doesn't regain all/most of his power before this thing is all over. Bast has pretty much made it clear that this is not a permanent thing and he's just working on getting Kvothe back to how he used to be. At which point, he'll still be in his twenties having spent a couple years not being the best at everything. This doesn't really read to me as a washed up character. I'm sick and abed, and thus not really up to defending a fantasy series I don't feel that strongly about in the first place, at least when we're at the thousand word diatribe level. Accordingly, all I'll say is that your constant references to how Kvothe is an awesome barkeep and is super rich (for the area) and awesome at everything have now made me think of Kvothe as Dalton from Roadhouse. And I don't really have a problem with that.
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Jul 1, 2014 02:44
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Velius posted:I'm sick and abed, and thus not really up to defending a fantasy series I don't feel that strongly about in the first place, at least when we're at the thousand word diatribe level. Accordingly, all I'll say is that your constant references to how Kvothe is an awesome barkeep and is super rich (for the area) and awesome at everything have now made me think of Kvothe as Dalton from Roadhouse. And I don't really have a problem with that. I never saw it, so sadly the reference is lost on me . Is there a youtube clip that encapsulates why this is a cool thing?
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Jul 1, 2014 02:59
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Tulul posted:Rothfuss's worldbuilding is pretty terrible. There's almost no sense of connection between any two places; it's all a bunch of monofocused set pieces like something out of a bad D&D setting. Here the party goes into Ninja Orgy Land, here the party arrives at Scheming Political Backstab Land, here are the Magic Free-Spirited Gypsies, here the party is going to Generic Fantasy Village, and so on and so forth for an entire novel. One thing about Rothfuss' books that I usually don't have a problem with is developing some sense of a general map of a fantasy world. It was easy as hell to do in Malazan and The First Law series, but for Rothfuss all I can imagine is the college smack in the middle of a bunch of random locations Kvothe journeys to and the city he grew up in some adjacent location. I have no idea what kingdoms are where, what cities exist, who rules what, etc. Since the focus is on Kvothe and 2 books in he hasn't even left magic school maybe book 3 has him actually roaming the lands and interacting with various cultures and people in a different way then "Wandered the woods, then journeyed to Ninja sex land. Wandered by the river, got a town burned down by a dragon."
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Jul 1, 2014 03:07
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Velius posted:I'm sick and abed, and thus not really up to defending a fantasy series I don't feel that strongly about in the first place, at least when we're at the thousand word diatribe level. Accordingly, all I'll say is that your constant references to how Kvothe is an awesome barkeep and is super rich (for the area) and awesome at everything have now made me think of Kvothe as Dalton from Roadhouse. And I don't really have a problem with that. I thought he'd be taller.
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Jul 1, 2014 04:11
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Srice posted:Yeah, Kvothe's situation in school doesn't really feel like he's poor. He's just not rich. Dude gets a pretty nice setup for room and board, when he starts out he gets paid to attend, etc etc. He's like the middle-class kid that gets a scholarship to a rich prep school.
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Jul 1, 2014 14:18
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Ravenfood posted:I must say, the way he finally wrapped up the money issues in TWMF made me really happy. I was getting really, really tired of "yay I found money!" "oh no I spent all of my money on my lute! Why am I always in debt??!? Life is so unfair" repeated like 5 times. Any chance you can explain the scam? I'm glad theres going to be no money issues in book 3 but for the life of me I have no idea how the tuition scam is supposed to work. So he gets a high tuition and the Maer pays for it, how come he gets a kickback the higher the tuition is?
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Jul 1, 2014 17:06
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MrFlibble posted:Any chance you can explain the scam? I'm glad theres going to be no money issues in book 3 but for the life of me I have no idea how the tuition scam is supposed to work. So he gets a high tuition and the Maer pays for it, how come he gets a kickback the higher the tuition is? He worked a deal out with the bursar that he gets half of anything over 20 talents. And don't hold your breathe. Once he's thrown out of the university its gonna be back to nonstop talking about ripping off shop keepers and scamming rooms by being super smart and good at music.
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Jul 1, 2014 17:11
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Solice Kirsk posted:He worked a deal out with the bursar that he gets half of anything over 20 talents. And don't hold your breathe. Once he's thrown out of the university its gonna be back to nonstop talking about ripping off shop keepers and scamming rooms by being super smart and good at music. Yeah - how does that work though? The tuition fee should presumably go to funding the university. Lets say the tuition is fifty talents, so the bursar gives him 15. That means the university doesn't receive 30 talents (presumably?) So basically the system hes set up only works because the bursars corrupt and the university isn't checking that the money is being collected? I'd laugh if this is the reason hes expelled.
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Jul 1, 2014 19:29
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I think the bursar just tacks the additional amount on to the bill they send the Maer. The University gets more than its fair share since Kvothe is bombing his evaluation on purpose and Kvothe gets a chunk that they are over billing the Maer for. So really the Maer is getting hosed and everyone else is coming out ahead.
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Jul 1, 2014 21:56
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Solice Kirsk posted:I think the bursar just tacks the additional amount on to the bill they send the Maer. The University gets more than its fair share since Kvothe is bombing his evaluation on purpose and Kvothe gets a chunk that they are over billing the Maer for. So really the Maer is getting hosed and everyone else is coming out ahead. This is the part that bothers me. If this is the scheme then purposefully bombing his interview (I know he only does it a little and the dick teacher fucks him over royally for it unexpectedly) is stupid and having a system in place to share money after however many talents even more so. So he gets charged 50 talents and then the Bursar adds 30 to the bill to split between him and Kvothe? Makes no loving sense to want a big price. If he was charging the Maer fifty talents per term and sharing the leftovers with the bursar (for helping him scam the Maer) then i'd understand it.
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Jul 1, 2014 23:03
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If the scam is really nothing more than [Bursar and Kvothe steal money from the Maer, neither the Maer or the University check the math], then why do the song and dance routine? Even if Kvothe's tuition was low, the Bursar could still inflate the fake bill to whatever he wanted and pocket the difference from the Maer.
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Jul 1, 2014 23:35
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Yeah, I don't know. Why does Kvothe skip over pirates and shipwrecks to talk at length about boring loving sex demons? How come you need an individual hair to make a not voodoo doll to perform malfeasance, but he can just stab a random dead dude to kill like 13 other people?
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Jul 2, 2014 00:22
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Solice Kirsk posted:Yeah, I don't know. Why does Kvothe skip over pirates and shipwrecks to talk at length about boring loving sex demons? How come you need an individual hair to make a not voodoo doll to perform malfeasance, but he can just stab a random dead dude to kill like 13 other people? Because one body is really similar to another, a cloth doll is not very similar to a person, I would venture.
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Jul 2, 2014 00:38
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