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door Door door posted:Free for the department, but not the country. KernelSlanders posted:Welcome to federalism. Also, the maintenance on those things probably greatly exceeds the purchase price as a share of TCO, even if the departments did pay retail.
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Jun 30, 2014 22:15
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In theory the feds needed it at the time. Just not anymore.
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Jun 30, 2014 22:16
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Let's discuss how police unions forcibly hospitalized an officer who was concerned with the abuses going on in his precinct, and how those awful unions were responsible for misreporing felonies as misdemeanors to make their stats look better.The Village Voice posted:For more than two years, Adrian Schoolcraft secretly recorded every roll call at the 81st Precinct in Brooklyn and captured his superiors urging police officers to do two things in order to manipulate the "stats" that the department is under pressure to produce: Officers were told to arrest people who were doing little more than standing on the street, but they were also encouraged to disregard actual victims of serious crimes who wanted to file reports. The worst part about this is the victims are being punished the most - it only takes one look at Schoolcraft's story to understand what kind of off-the-record pressure they were under, and what punishments they would suffer if they didn't comply with policy, yet they're the ones being charged or docked pay/vacation time over it. Yes, I'd like to see something happen to remind them of their duty, but not until the rot at the top was ruthlessly cut out of the system.
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Jun 30, 2014 23:08
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Yeah holy poo poo fire the commissioner at the very least.
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Jun 30, 2014 23:26
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paragon1 posted:Yeah holy poo poo fire the commissioner at the very least. How many people even know about this one? I've been following it since the 2010 This American Life episode on it, and it's really not had a good resolution. "Yup, he was right, let's slap a few peons and pretend the problem was solved."
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Jun 30, 2014 23:43
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Schoolcraft is a big deal among all of the people who follow police abuses, but how many people is that? Part of the reason I support oversight boards packed with activists is because the public at large don't care or approve of police abuse. Democracy does not seem to be an adequate check on law enforcement.
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Jun 30, 2014 23:52
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Okay SedanChair, I'm convinced. In the case of NYC, it actually would be better to have no cops at all than what they have now. Edit: How much of this sort of thing is the result of the politicization of police work? You know, official gets elected promising to be "tough on crime", puts pressure on the PD, PD has perverse incentives to gently caress around with reports and arrests, that sort of thing. Or is it more part of the culture? paragon1 fucked around with this message at 00:06 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 00:00
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door Door door posted:Hey, here's some content for the thread. They're administered by the constituent departments. The 501(c)3s handle more of an organizational role for training, fundraising for teaining, and grants. The records they want apparently exist, but they're standardized and kept by the individual seprtments, not the LEC. And also in a locked fili ng cabinet in a dimly lit basement. OJ MIST 2 THE DICK fucked around with this message at 00:58 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 00:55
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ayn rand hand job posted:They're administered by the constituent departments. The 501(c)3s handle more of an organizational role for training, fundraising for teaining, and grants. Don't forget the sign that reads "Beware of the Leopard".
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Jul 1, 2014 01:39
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I think reform is needed. I also think, whether cops like it or not, that the idea mentioned in the OP of body cameras is awesome. They need to be 1) made mandatory, and 2) always on. How would any of us do if everything we did and said, everyday of work, was recorded with video/audio (and then the recording watched)? People get mad, say things, let off steam. So some type of respect for privacy has to be upheld even with video footage (i am talking about things like phone calls to wives/family, general BS, etc). What about departments watching it to see "who is talking about about other workers/boss/politicians", because it is already done with in-car cams. To me, though, the benefits outweigh any possible concerns because when an incident does happen there is no need to have to remember to turn it on, and the entire situation can be evaluated. I would not mind having to watch what i say a little more for the massive, massive protection the public and officers are afford by that idea. I believe it really would lower physical confrontations and officer misconduct by significant numbers. paragon1 posted:Okay SedanChair, I'm convinced. In the case of NYC, it actually would be better to have no cops at all than what they have now. The reason i left my agency (in GA) was politics. I loved the job and helping people, and community policing works despite what any cops will say. however, our politicians wanted tickets because they use that to say "look at us. under our watch the PD wrote so many tickets. Those are lives saved b/c they did not cause accidents" or something like that. So we (cops and citizens) voted them out after no raises for 8 years and instead giving themselves one. The ones who replaced them realized it was also the actual police administration that was the problem and conducted an investigation on the command staff. Turns out, they were playing politics, good-ole-boy, and favorites as much as the elected politicians were. The officers had so many complaints against the admin that they conducted an entire HR investigation and am most likely going make the high-command staff resign (deputy chief already has, the chief threatened to sue because the report "mad him look bad"). So despite what outside perceptions on police unions and the like, this is what happens when there are no unions in a job such as law enforcement. The reason none of the officers spoke up before was because the admin would just fire people who had negative opinions (right to work state) of the administration and they would use video in cars to "review it" to see what officers were talking to each other about. Fortunately some have gotten their jobs back after the investigations. The supervisor who helped cause the investigation had been demoted and the HR made them give his position back. IF there had been an union there would be 1) standards of pay, 2) safe resources for those with grievances (among other things). Even before that, some on the shift i worked tried to file a grievance. All were immediately transferred all over the department and told to shut up. The above described stuff can spill out into the community and will effect the effectiveness (morale) of the force. That is not good for the officers or the public because the scariest feeling i ever had as an officer was knowing that even if i was in the right, the leadership would not back me because i was not a "good-ole-boy" and there was nothing i could reasonably do about it. justsharkbait fucked around with this message at 02:33 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 02:30
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paragon1 posted:Okay SedanChair, I'm convinced. In the case of NYC, it actually would be better to have no cops at all than what they have now. Bahahaha is this his actual position?
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Jul 1, 2014 02:56
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justsharkbait posted:I think reform is needed. I also think, whether cops like it or not, that the idea mentioned in the OP of body cameras is awesome. They need to be 1) made mandatory, and 2) always on. If you're a stock broker or work at an investment bank everything you say or do from the moment you enter the building at work to the moment you leave is recorded. Every file you click on on your computer is logged, your phones are recorded, your conversations are recorded. If you want to make a private personal call, then you do it on your cell phone after you leave the building off company time. I see no reason why the standards for public servants with guns should be lower.
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Jul 1, 2014 03:18
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Nostalgia4Infinity posted:Bahahaha is this his actual position? Not for the purposes of this thread. I'm talking about reform.
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Jul 1, 2014 03:25
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KernelSlanders posted:If you're a stock broker or work at an investment bank everything you say or do from the moment you enter the building at work to the moment you leave is recorded. Every file you click on on your computer is logged, your phones are recorded, your conversations are recorded. If you want to make a private personal call, then you do it on your cell phone after you leave the building off company time. I see no reason why the standards for public servants with guns should be lower.
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Jul 1, 2014 03:30
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Even if all that were true stock brokers aren't also expected to work 12 hour shifts and never leave their desk in that time. Cops shouldn't be working 12 hour shifts either (although plenty of desk traders do). Maybe we could some money on hiring enough police officers and a bit more on training rather than on spy equipment and military gear?
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Jul 1, 2014 04:52
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KernelSlanders posted:Cops shouldn't be working 12 hour shifts either (although plenty of desk traders do). Maybe we could some money on hiring enough police officers and a bit more on training rather than on spy equipment and military gear? Why shouldn't they work 12 hour shifts? Doing the typical three 12 hour shifts and one 6 hour shift per workweek seems a much more humane way of ensuring 24/7 coverage than playing games with 8 hour shifts.
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Jul 1, 2014 05:02
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You're changing the subject. My point was that there are other jobs where you're not entitled to privacy on the clock. Commercial airline pilots are another example. Also, it's probably worth pointing out the irony of police who collect all sorts of information on citizens and expect us to trust that they'll maintain custody of those records responsibly while at the same time not trusting their own administrators to maintain custody of police tapes responsibly.
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Jul 1, 2014 05:24
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KernelSlanders posted:You're changing the subject. My point was that there are other jobs where you're not entitled to privacy on the clock. Commercial airline pilots are another example. Also, it's probably worth pointing out the irony of police who collect all sorts of information on citizens and expect us to trust that they'll maintain custody of those records responsibly while at the same time not trusting their own administrators to maintain custody of police tapes responsibly. But law enforcement is not a traditional "on the clock job". When you are on duty that is it. You are in society, in a uniform, in a car (or on foot). There is no "leaving the office", no "going outside for break", no "lunch break". You are simply available and able to respond to calls while your shift is up and whatever you do is on you. Therefore, there is no expectation that you cannot "handle personal stuff" while on duty as long as you answer your calls and do other tasks you need to do. It is not a traditional working environment so you cannot compare the two needs as the same. There are no breaks, you eat when you can and handle business when you can. To go even further, you are subject to be on duty whenever you are needed, whether you are at home or not. You can be called in on off days, during storms, during special events, etc. You are considered on duty even if you are driving your car from your house to the DOT shop for an oil change, or going to court to sit in a trial. If you are in your car you are considered on duty and if anything serious happens you are required by law and policy to respond. Further, the 12 hour shifts are awesome for law enforcement because it is a good way to make use of manpower and it gives you a few more days in rotation. working traditional hours in a non-traditional job SUCKS, and i would hate 8-5 or 2-10 as a cop. At least do 10 hr days where you work 4 and have off 3. Of course, training and court are whenever you are needed. EDIT: In reference to the last part of what you wrote. It is two completely difference things. A department can view data collected on employees under administrative rules. Citizens have legal protections that secure the data and very, very stiff penalties on officers and agencies who violate that. In other words, the stuff we encounter as part of our job is secure and it is a huge deal to violate any of those policies and laws. Conversely, our departments, though, can review our stuff all they want to make sure we are still "good" employees. This also means that they don't have to have a reason to view videos of officers other then "admin purposes" and the like. The same is not true for civ data. justsharkbait fucked around with this message at 06:05 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 05:54
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justsharkbait posted:To go even further, you are subject to be on duty whenever you are needed, whether you are at home or not. You can be called in on off days, during storms, during special events, etc. You are considered on duty even if you are driving your car from your house to the DOT shop for an oil change, or going to court to sit in a trial. If you are in your car you are considered on duty and if anything serious happens you are required by law and policy to respond. Being able to be called on at any time seems like it would be a major source of stress to me, and people are arguing that stress contributes heavily to bad outcomes in police work. Samurai Sanders fucked around with this message at 06:02 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 06:00
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Samurai Sanders posted:Does it really have to be this way, or is it just the tradition of the profession? Is it like that in other countries too? It does cause a lot of stress. It is not an easy job or situation but after doing it for 5 years i don't see any way to make it better or change that without completely changing our system and that is not feasible. The best way to make it better is to simply work for a good department that understands you are not going to marry your job just because you work for them. Law enforcement across the world is very similar. There is just not a better way to deal with emergencies, which can happen at any time and literally be anything from shooting to bombing to major accident, and not have legal power to compel those in that profession to come help. We know it going into the job. The thing a lot of people miss about the job is that the laws and such that apply to regular citizens don't apply to us in the same way. We are held to higher, stricter laws, and our employers have massively large amounts of things they can do to enforce PD policy. For example, we can get fired for stuff we put on a private, friends-only facebook if it in any way makes the department look bad. So silly pictures at a bar? people have been fired for it. Discussing your political beliefs? fired or at the very least chief meeting. It is actually in policy that they have the right to fire you for anything they consider to make the department look bad, and you can be sure they use that line (no unions to stop it). The danger of policing is not from the public. The public backs up officers who did what was right. The danger is losing your job because of your own admin crap. justsharkbait fucked around with this message at 06:18 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 06:07
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justsharkbait posted:But law enforcement is not a traditional "on the clock job". When you are on duty that is it. You are in society, in a uniform, in a car (or on foot). There is no "leaving the office", no "going outside for break", no "lunch break". You are simply available and able to respond to calls while your shift is up and whatever you do is on you. Therefore, there is no expectation that you cannot "handle personal stuff" while on duty as long as you answer your calls and do other tasks you need to do. It is not a traditional working environment so you cannot compare the two needs as the same. I wasn't attacking 12 hour shifts per se. Rent-a-cop brought up 12 hours shifts as a problem, so all I was trying to say is that if they are a problem, change them. A shift schedule thats mutable by department policy is not a reason not to have cameras. That was my only point on that front, and I certainly didn't mean to suggest on my own initiative that a particular shift schedule was bad, only that if it is bad, change it. I don't follow your point about being called up when otherwise off duty. There are plenty of jobs that have that too, but regardless I don't see what it has to do with expectations of privacy. The fact that police are in public while working only further supports the idea that they have no expectation of privacy. People can watch and report what they do. The only thing the camera adds is a bit more definitiveness when the officer and the civilian disagree about what happened. What is the concern with taping your lunch exactly? Are you worried about supervisors hearing your conversation or the public? That was very much the same argument used by the pilots union against cockpit voice recorders incidentally, and I doubt many people would suggest we get rid of them. They don't even have to be public unless there's an incident, in which case I would hope you would want all the evidence available to support your side of the story. I really don't see any compelling arguments in your post against the body cameras. Also, by "your car" do you mean the city's cruiser or do you mean personally owned vehicle?
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Jul 1, 2014 06:17
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Twelve hour shifts especially in the context of a Panama schedule aren't that big of a deal 
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Jul 1, 2014 06:17
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justsharkbait posted:We are held to higher, stricter laws, and our employers have massively large amounts of things they can do to enforce PD policy. For example, we can get fired for stuff we put on a private, friends-only facebook if it in any way makes the department look bad. So silly pictures at a bar? people have been fired for it. Discussing your political beliefs? fired or at the very least chief meeting. Are these supposed to be examples of higher standards and stricter rules? I've got the same rules going on where I work and it applies to everyone from the dishwashers to the locksmith.
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Jul 1, 2014 06:20
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KernelSlanders posted:I wasn't attacking 12 hour shifts per se. Rent-a-cop brought up 12 hours shifts as a problem, so all I was trying to say is that if they are a problem, change them. A shift schedule thats mutable by department policy is not a reason not to have cameras. That was my only point on that front, and I certainly didn't mean to suggest on my own initiative that a particular shift schedule was bad, only that if it is bad, change it. My issue is not with the public at all. As you said, they can only be retrieved IF something happened to need to retrieve them. However, i don't trust department admins. It is like a big dysfunctional family and we all know how people like drama. So any drama they can find on people gets out and it can make for horrible working environments. Supervisors have to review random videos to evaluate the officer. Just let you be having problems with your significant other. That crap will be all over the department for you to have to deal with. "so and so is having marriage trouble." or "so and so can't pay the bills". There is no way to prevent that from getting out, and no resealable way to prevent officers from having those personal conversations on video. The inside of police department is like a jerry springer show because you all get to know each other so well. It becomes a big soap opera involving 300 ppl. EDIT: Forgot to add. I am not saying it (cams) should not be done, but the entire sub-culture of law enforcement would cause all your personal business to be out for your co-workers to see. So my concern is more a quality of work environment issues then having anything to do with the public at all. The sub-culture itself makes it hard for reform. You have to trust your co-workers that when life and death are in the balance they got your back, won't freeze, won't miss, won't hesitate. How many people do you know who you could take into a life/death situation and count on them? So from the get-go you train with the same people and get to know them because that is how you build the trust. The downside is that your personal business gets tossed around for everyone's entertainment. The bigger downside is that that kind of close-knit family is hard to get to change and while i believe reform will come, it will just take a while and little can be done about that. justsharkbait fucked around with this message at 06:30 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 06:24
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justsharkbait posted:There is no way to prevent that from getting out, and no resealable way to prevent officers from having those personal conversations on video. I don't think that's true. I'm sure if we really think about it we can find a way to treat those videos as private until they're subpoenaed for a court case.
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Jul 1, 2014 06:27
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:I don't think that's true. I'm sure if we really think about it we can find a way to treat those videos as private until they're subpoenaed for a court case. That is how it works now. You need subpoena. BUT you cannot hide from the admin and supervisors. Again, different laws and stuff. Administratively they can review and look at anything one of their officers does for basically no reason other then they want to look. So if they happen to hear stuff it gets repeated. It may seem like it is not a big deal, but it happens all the time. All the time and costs people their jobs, friends, relationships, etc. Drama is powerful and people love to know other people's business. Think high-school level drama. In a job that deals with people's problems, we are good at digging up details about each other. So yeah, the dash cams and recorders are private, but not to internal department use. Overall, it is not a big issues when weighing good and bad. It needs to be done. However, it just adds stress to the line officers, but we are used to it. Addition: Best example? the issue i talked about earlier with the internal investigation, good-ole-boy, etc. That entire mess was caused because someone was sleeping around and an officer leaked it to the news b/c they were mad (i think they got left out, who knows). The department started internal investigation. Fired several supervisors and other employees (except the one doing the sleeping around). Huge sex scandal drama. HR finds out. Also finds out that the only people fired were not on the secret "in group". They asked questions of employees, turns into department-wide favoritism, good-old-boy, political mess with so many lawsuits and people getting jobs back and a mess. I wish i could make this stuff up. You think your family drama is bad, just join a police or fire department. Drama is what keeps you coming to work, and no secret why so many TV/MOVIE dramas involve those agencies. justsharkbait fucked around with this message at 06:47 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 06:34
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justsharkbait posted:Further, the 12 hour shifts are awesome for law enforcement because it is a good way to make use of manpower and it gives you a few more days in rotation. working traditional hours in a non-traditional job SUCKS, and i would hate 8-5 or 2-10 as a cop. At least do 10 hr days where you work 4 and have off 3. Of course, training and court are whenever you are needed. justsharkbait posted:My issue is not with the public at all. As you said, they can only be retrieved IF something happened to need to retrieve them. However, i don't trust department admins. It is like a big dysfunctional family and we all know how people like drama. So any drama they can find on people gets out and it can make for horrible working environments. Supervisors have to review random videos to evaluate the officer. Just let you be having problems with your significant other. That crap will be all over the department for you to have to deal with. "so and so is having marriage trouble." or "so and so can't pay the bills".
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Jul 1, 2014 06:54
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justsharkbait posted:That is how it works now. You need subpoena. BUT you cannot hide from the admin and supervisors. Again, different laws and stuff. Administratively they can review and look at anything one of their officers does for basically no reason other then they want to look. So if they happen to hear stuff it gets repeated. It may seem like it is not a big deal, but it happens all the time. All the time and costs people their jobs, friends, relationships, etc. Drama is powerful and people love to know other people's business. I view that as a very big deal. You're essentially telling us that senior police department officials can't be trusted to behave professionally and maintain confidentiality and proper custody of records. I find that a truly drat accusation. If you work in a hospital and check your coworker's chart to gossip about it you will be fired and quite possibly sued.
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Jul 1, 2014 07:03
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wixard posted:I would have expected cops to like shorter shifts because in my experience working past 10hrs in a job where you're largely waiting around for something to happen ends up being torturous. If you were working something like the night shift though, it would be torture to disrupt your sleep schedule for a short shift. 12 hours maintains some equity between night and day shifts and allows nice fair handoffs of shifts and blocks of time off using a panama schedule.
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Jul 1, 2014 07:04
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KernelSlanders posted:I view that as a very big deal. You're essentially telling us that senior police department officials can't be trusted to behave professionally and maintain confidentiality and proper custody of records. I find that a truly drat accusation. If you work in a hospital and check your coworker's chart to gossip about it you will be fired and quite possibly sued. Politics and Drama are the biggest complaints of the job. It does not matter how it got out, it just does. Also, i am completely saying that i don't trust senior officials, however, i am very, very biased on the subject because of where i worked. I do not know what it is like for unionized pd groups where there is admin oversight. on the left posted:If you were working something like the night shift though, it would be torture to disrupt your sleep schedule for a short shift. 12 hours maintains some equity between night and day shifts and allows nice fair handoffs of shifts and blocks of time off using a panama schedule. exactly. the job is mentally draining enough without messing up sleep. 10 or 12 hrs also gets you past the busy times and most nights you can get all your paper work down the last couple hours and leave on time. If we did "regular" schedule we would almost never leave on time at all. Too much to do at end of shift. People also need to realize that one call cld take up 8 hours by itself. working 10 or 12 hours helps you still have time to recover, get food, write 2-3 page report of the incident before having to go home and try to unwind. wixard posted:Sounds like a pretty good reason to have citizen oversight boards with exclusive access to the body camera footage instead. Would you agree that footage involving some kind of paperwork, whether a police report or a citizen's report of some harassment, could be fair game to a board like that? If those on the board went through some type of citizens police academy where they got to learn about the job and ride with officers so they understand better what goes on and what we have to deal with. Maybe. I don't trust admins, but i also have issues with straight civ stuff. There needs to be some kind of balance. Maybe background checks, etc? However, being a cop also naturally causes you to have issues with the public as well since some of them try to kill you, and others just hate you b/c of your job. Very few people in 5 years ever had anything nice to say. justsharkbait fucked around with this message at 07:20 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 07:12
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justsharkbait posted:We are held to higher, stricter laws, and our employers have massively large amounts of things they can do to enforce PD policy. For example, we can get fired for stuff we put on a private, friends-only facebook if it in any way makes the department look bad. So silly pictures at a bar? people have been fired for it. Discussing your political beliefs? fired or at the very least chief meeting. Anyone can get fired for that.
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Jul 1, 2014 07:52
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justsharkbait posted:Law enforcement across the world is very similar. There is just not a better way to deal with emergencies, which can happen at any time and literally be anything from shooting to bombing to major accident, and not have legal power to compel those in that profession to come help. We know it going into the job. edit: wouldn't that be something that cop unions would be fighting against tooth and nail, the right of their members to relax on their time off?
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Jul 1, 2014 08:46
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Samurai Sanders posted:I'm not really following you here. Why are police officers who are completely outside of work, just sitting in their house or walking down the street or whatever, compelled to help? Why can't it be handled by cops who are on duty? I mean, if the distribution of currently working cops is such that no currently working cop can be there in time, isn't that a problem with the distribution of cops? You don't understand why some jobs are never completely off-duty?
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Jul 1, 2014 08:50
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justsharkbait posted:However, being a cop also naturally causes you to have issues with the public as well since some of them try to kill you, and others just hate you b/c of your job. Very few people in 5 years ever had anything nice to say. Can you talk more about this? Relations between police and citizens in the US is a fascinating subject to me. I have read the claim in this thread that the feeling of being threatened by the public, while for the most part much greater than the actual threat from the public, is quite real in the sense that it leads to a lot of unfortunate and unnecessary stress, as well as us vs. them thinking that can lead to a lot of callous/violent behavior towards the public when cops go out on the streets. Were there many attempts on your life or those of your fellow officers during your career? E: I'd also like to thank retired and active cops in this thread for sticking their necks out to engage with our questions, I respect that it can be like shoving your dick into a hornet's nest, deserved or not. murphyslaw fucked around with this message at 08:57 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 08:55
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on the left posted:You don't understand why some jobs are never completely off-duty? edit: The news occasionally has news stories about off-duty police officers saving someone, but up until this thread I assumed that they had simply volunteered, as any citizen has the option to volunteer, to help out. I had no idea before this thread that they had a duty to do that. Samurai Sanders fucked around with this message at 09:11 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 08:58
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murphyslaw posted:Can you talk more about this? Relations between police and citizens in the US is a fascinating subject to me. I have read the claim in this thread that the feeling of being threatened by the public, while for the most part much greater than the actual threat from the public, is quite real in the sense that it leads to a lot of unfortunate and unnecessary stress, as well as us vs. them thinking that can lead to a lot of callous/violent behavior towards the public when cops go out on the streets. Were there many attempts on your life or those of your fellow officers during your career? I'll jump back in for this one. The relationship between cops and citizens is strange because we're normal, everyday people just like you and everyone you know. We come from vastly diverse backgrounds and cultures, have vastly different political views, and all have a different way of doing the job based on all of those things. When we put on the uniform and go to work, we're a representation of the government. We're the guys that have to enforce all of the laws that the government passes at the behest of the people. People don't like being told what to do, especially if they can't see why what they're doing is wrong. Even good people often see nothing wrong with lying to a cop to get out of a speeding ticket or shouting something obscene at a cop because they don't like what we represent or the actions of the shittier members of our job. It should also be taken into account that people also somehow believe that hurling abuse at a cop is somehow ok because we're public servants. You would be amazed at the number of people from all walks of life who will go out of their way to approach a cop and call him a racist, thug, babykiller, etc before spitting on him. I had it happen dozens of times just in the last year of my career. That's not even factoring in the physical violence. I've had people pull guns on me over a fix-it ticket or a small bag of weed which wouldn't even be worth writing a ticket over. I've been on dozens of domestic violence calls where I've had to arrest the husband only to have his wife, who called us, attack me for putting him in handcuffs. I've personally been shot at while walking down the street and while taking a child abuse report. More than once I've had people completely unrelated to the traffic stop I was on approach me and throw a punch. The biggest problem with stress in police work is that it comes from all sides and in many different forms. There's no end to it because every traffic stop or call for service has the potential to turn violent in the blink of an eye and every report you write or word you say can be used to portray you as some kind of heartless killer. Just look at some of the responses when I initially offered my opinion. Outright hostility from people who don't know me, have never met me, and have no idea what my views are on any of this. Folks are so set in their hatred of cops in general that they'll never see the majority of us who are good people doing a tough job the best we can. Please don't take any of this to be a boo-boo woe is us post. We all are (or should be) educated and aware of the reality of this job before we sign up. That doesn't make it acceptable or make it any easier to do the job though.
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Jul 1, 2014 16:09
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SrgMagnum posted:You would be amazed at the number of people from all walks of life who will go out of their way to approach a cop and call him a racist, thug, babykiller, etc before spitting on him. I had it happen dozens of times just in the last year of my career. Either you are The Unluckiest Cop In The World or this is a big ol' crop of stdh.txt. People walked up to you and spit on you dozens of times? Multiple people have pulled guns on you for no reason? Oh, you just now remembered that you got shot twice? You're either a fourteen-year-old roleplaying as a cop or just prone to confabulation.
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Jul 1, 2014 16:13
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meat sweats posted:Either you are The Unluckiest Cop In The World or this is a big ol' crop of stdh.txt. People walked up to you and spit on you dozens of times? Multiple people have pulled guns on you for no reason? Oh, you just now remembered that you got shot twice? You're either a fourteen-year-old roleplaying as a cop or just prone to confabulation. Respectfully, no. Confabulation is a great word though. Thanks for that.
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Jul 1, 2014 16:20
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SrgMagnum posted:That's not even factoring in the physical violence. I've had people pull guns on me over a fix-it ticket or a small bag of weed which wouldn't even be worth writing a ticket over. I've been on dozens of domestic violence calls where I've had to arrest the husband only to have his wife, who called us, attack me for putting him in handcuffs. I've personally been shot at while walking down the street and while taking a child abuse report. More than once I've had people completely unrelated to the traffic stop I was on approach me and throw a punch. justsharkbait posted:However, being a cop also naturally causes you to have issues with the public as well since some of them try to kill you, and others just hate you b/c of your job. I mean no disrespect here, but I really view this attitude at part of the problem. I also don't mean to imply that cops don't have to deal with all manner of hosed up poo poo that the rest of us don't. I know they do, but the idea that it's a particularly dangerous job because everyone is trying to kill you, is simply false. Firstly, because it's statistically not a very dangerous job -- not even in the top ten. Logging, commercial fishing, construction, aircraft operation are all statistically more dangerous occupations (source). Even then sixty percent of police deaths in the line of duty are not homicides(source) -- mostly automobile accidents. Treating the public like they are "others" and the enemy like the police are some occupying force is very much what the OP was about. Have you considered that some of the attitude towards police is simply responding in kind? I still can't understand why it was decided that police should come into every encounter putting hands on people and getting in their face to "take charge of the situation" in this country as opposed to being trained to de-escalate like most other civilized countries. justsharkbait posted:Very few people in 5 years ever had anything nice to say. In fairness, I've never left an encounter with a police officer thinking, "wow, I'm so glad he stopped by" either.
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Jul 1, 2014 17:03
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KernelSlanders posted:I mean no disrespect here, but I really view this attitude at part of the problem. I also don't mean to imply that cops don't have to deal with all manner of hosed up poo poo that the rest of us don't. I know they do, but the idea that it's a particularly dangerous job because everyone is trying to kill you, is simply false. Firstly, because it's statistically not a very dangerous job -- not even in the top ten. Logging, commercial fishing, construction, aircraft operation are all statistically more dangerous occupations (source). Even then sixty percent of police deaths in the line of duty are not homicides(source) -- mostly automobile accidents. I can certainly understand your point of view there and I have seen and heard those stats many times. I'm not comparing my career to anybody else's or trying to make a claim that it's more dangerous than others. I'm just giving you my perspective and my experience. In your opinion, does it matter at all that in law enforcement the danger often comes from people willfully trying to hurt you as opposed to the sea and equipment with fishermen, falling trees with loggers, or etc? I wish I had a solution to the us vs them mentality. I'm certain both sides could do a great deal more to improve that relationship and bridge the gap. Conversations like this are a great first step towards at least getting each side to recognize and appreciate the other. Communication from cops about what they're doing and why as opposed to the "do what I say and do it now" attitude will help as well in public perception of cops as people instead of occupiers. I tried to do my part whenever I could to give people a positive encounter with a police officer. I tried to keep it in my head at all times that I had a chance to bridge that gap a little bit. That's just me and from the experiences I see posted here often I'm apparently a rarity. America is a place that doesn't understand de-escalating. Our culture is entirely about one-upping the other guy and making sure you get heard. Unfortunately that's often displayed with yelling and acting stupid. Cops are people just like everyone else and aren't immune to that at all, clearly. There are certain people in this world that have no interest in calming down and simply want to stir up poo poo. Just look at any troll on these boards. They wander around making GBS threads up threads just to piss people off and get them fired up.
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Jul 1, 2014 17:15
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