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jerichojx posted:Can people say some words on salaries in China? Haha!
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Jul 1, 2014 13:32
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Paraphrased quote from my girlfriend's parents (they did pretty well opening a moderately successful business in the early 1990s) to my girlfriend and her brother: "We don't see any possible way for you two to earn nearly as much money as we have, so we're trying to set you up for after we're gone." And that's basically how it works.
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Jul 1, 2014 13:36
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jerichojx posted:Can people say some words on salaries in China? You didn't think the migrant workers were the only class getting their labor exploited, did you? 
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Jul 1, 2014 14:03
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LentThem posted:Yeah I've had people in interviews tell me they prefer English teaching even if it's a career dead end because its basically stripper money with no hours if you're white. Teaching English isn't a career dead end if you want to, you know, teach English or work in international education in the future. Alot of people do it for the money/travel and gain entry to the industry because of the pathetic qualification barriers at the lower end of the market. These people then complain about how English teaching in China is useless on their resume when they apply for jobs as business consultants because somehow streetshitting makes you Richard Branson. Frankly though, those people can suck a dick. There are people who are paid twice my salary to sing songs and dance with primary school children in after schools clubs while rows of slack jawed parents film them on their mobile phones from behind fish-tanks glass. They probably work shorter hours than I do too and they certainly live in more exciting cities. I wouldn't trade my job and life for theirs. If those guys are strippers then I'm Sasha Grey. If you get that analogy then you watch too much porn. If you think it's ironic that I mentioned dick sucking earlier in the post then you read too much Wikipedia. And also, you watch too much porn. GuestBob fucked around with this message at 14:31 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 14:15
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I applaud people who have found a way to make a lot of money by putting in very little effort.
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Jul 1, 2014 14:28
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GuestBob posted:Teaching English isn't a career dead end if you want to, you know, teach English or work in international education in the future. Alot of people do it for the money/travel and gain entry to the industry because of the pathetic qualification barriers at the lower end of the market. I agree, but the kind of person who actually cares about teaching/education long-term won't be showing up to Tech Editor interviews in the first place. I once had a guy decide he didn't want the job during the interview when he found out that the hours wouldn't be flexible enough for him to keep up his lucrative private tutoring appointments on weekday afternoons (early, like 2pm).
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Jul 1, 2014 14:28
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Maybe you should pay more. English teaching in China isn't known for being a high paying profession, and it sounds like you're expecting people to work a Real Job without even being competitive with that.
fart simpson fucked around with this message at 14:35 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 14:33
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GuestBob posted:If those guys are strippers then I'm Sasha Grey. So you don't teach English any more is what you're saying?
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Jul 1, 2014 14:40
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Real job. Thanks for that. Ugh, there's no way to say this without coming across as a self righteous prat so there we go. I just ran a two day faculty seminar on teaching methodology and professional development which I've been asked to put into a book so it can be published by a minor university press. Pay more? Without going beyond the upper end of the Chinese public sector average I have recruited, for this September, two people with Masters degrees from top 200 universities who have teaching experience in Asia and an EF DoS with over ten years of professional EBP experience in China working with major listed companies. My lovely little third tier college has the most qualified international foreign language teaching team in the province and it has nothing to do with salary. I find the people who want to do something and then show them the problem. Arglebargle III posted:So you don't teach English any more is what you're saying? Next year I am teaching an Introduction to Linguistics (team teaching with Chinese staff actually), English Literature on a provincial experimental top up program and EAP to dumbass rich kids - so maybe I have moved out of porn and into "real" movies. I am still course leader for all of our English major Speaking and Writing courses though. And all of our foreign staff are teaching a mixed portfolio, beacsue that's what I wanted and I set their teaching loads. And....see that's all it takes. If you have solid year-to-year management in an open minded department you can have standardization and process and you can begin to use terms like "module", "course" and "program" with as much legitimacy as, say, a community college or UK vocational college. And I mean that. Granted this may come crashing down around my ears halfway through next year (that'll be hilarious to watch) but then again maybe not. Try, die, fart, cry or whatever it is. Two years ago, my university had never had a member of foreign staff with a degree. Now, we are the best in the province in terms of qualifications and integration. loving "proper job", aye... maybe. GuestBob fucked around with this message at 15:20 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 15:06
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Yeah, but he was talking about English teachers that spend 10 hours a week "teaching" little kids or something, I don't know. I'm not trying to say English teaching can't be a Real Job.
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Jul 1, 2014 15:16
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Sure seems like you're working hard. Are your monetary rewards enough to go back to Orkney and live a comfortable life?
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Jul 1, 2014 15:24
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i look at facebook and tweeter all day. thats my real job. but seriously i know people here who in chengdu get like 12k in Chengdu and show up drunk to their 4pm classes at EF or whatever. These people have been around for years too so it's not like they're getting fired for this crap. Not equating that do what ghostbob and others do, and I'm not gonna pull out "Real job" talk, but I can see meramjerks point here if someone's just looking for a paycheck. not everyone is in love with their job and wants to make a difference. I know guys in the states who went to vocational school and now make like 150k a year as HVAC dudes or plumbers. They don't love plumbing, but the job has a ton of perks (ie you are your own boss, great pay, and constant demand). A lot of people look at esl the same way and thats prob most foreigners in china. also I had trouble saving on a decently bigger salary than 10k in shanghai just cause rent was so much higher than out here in the sticks.
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Jul 1, 2014 15:24
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GuestBob posted:Pay more? Without going beyond the upper end of the Chinese public sector average I have recruited, for this September, two people with Masters degrees from top 200 universities who have teaching experience in Asia and an EF DoS with over ten years of professional EBP experience in China working with major listed companies. I am genuinely curious how you got people with these credentials to agree to those salaries. For the good of the students? (Unlikely.) Are job prospects in their home countries that grim or is there more potential for professional advancement in this situation than I cynically assume?
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Jul 1, 2014 15:25
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I got grumpy, I know. But I am going to leave it up there because it needs to be said once in a while - against the howling backdrop of "I fail at life = teach English lol" which is out there. The serious point is that I don't need a salary carrot to recruit people. If you do, then your job quality is either sub-par, not being represented well enough or you are advertising to the wrong people. Recruitment is tricky, but it ain't that hard. blinkyzero posted:I am genuinely curious how you got people with these credentials to agree to those salaries. For the good of the students? (Unlikely.) Are job prospects in their home countries that grim or is there more potential for professional advancement in this situation than I cynically assume? Firstly I know that British people are pussy whipped by authority so I direct a bunch of effort and attention to British recruitment sites because we are a university [cue choral snippet]. Produces results too. Secondly I target people and sites in which there is a high degree of awareness about the market and offer them something different. Dave's thingy and eChinawahtnot don't work because they are full of idiots but other places can highlight what you have by contrast ~ I want to attract people who know the difference between a Sauvignon and a Merlot and I am never going to to do that on "How I Shoot TEFL dot coms?!!" I use professional social networking because I am a dirty whore. I am painfully and explicitly honest with all applicants at all times. I send them "Tealeafnation" articles about the education divide, I undershoot our English major's level by half an IELTS points and the only thing I sell is the fact that we are well managed enough to allow a difference to be made if you want to make a difference. I also do regular things like interview personally over Skype, explain things in detail and present offers on headed notepaper. Nothing extraordinary, but it works. GuestBob fucked around with this message at 15:34 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 15:25
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But the thing that confuses me is that these highly qualified people should have opportunities to work in places that both offer good job quality and good money. Do you offer blowjobs to everyone or something? What makes your workplace so much better than places that pay better?
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Jul 1, 2014 15:37
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Bloodnose posted:Sure seems like you're working hard. Are your monetary rewards enough to go back to Orkney and live a comfortable life? You and I, we shall talk.
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Jul 1, 2014 15:38
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GuestBob posted:Firstly I know that British people are pussy whipped by authority so I direct a bunch of effort and attention to British recruitment sites because we are a university [cue choral snippet]. Produces results too. Yeah, I expected you to have the recruiting skills, I'm just having a Bloodnose moment I suppose and wondering how people could agree to the low pay unless it's a concrete part of a long-term plan. Bloodnose posted:But the thing that confuses me is that these highly qualified people should have opportunities to work in places that both offer good job quality and good money. Do you offer blowjobs to everyone or something? What makes your workplace so much better than places that pay better? Yeah, this, lol
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Jul 1, 2014 15:38
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blinkyzero posted:Yeah, I expected you to have the recruiting skills, I'm just having a Bloodnose moment I suppose and wondering how people could agree to the low pay unless it's a concrete part of a long-term plan. That's the person I go for, the person with the plan. Finding them is the trick, but there's more out there than you think. I find that being honest and "being" a university is important. There's still a whole bunch of people out there (British ting again) who would rather take a lower paying gig from a direct hire with a university than go through a recruiter or agent, even if they name the place that they are hiring for. We are well managed though: from the big things (teaching loads, the academic remit of staff) down to little things (Y300 gift card when you move into your flat on campus) and that is what is going to count in the long term.
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Jul 1, 2014 15:43
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GuestBob posted:The serious point is that I don't need a salary carrot to recruit people. If you do, then your job quality is either sub-par, not being represented well enough or you are advertising to the wrong people. Recruitment is tricky, but it ain't that hard. I could make a much better sales pitch than my thing earlier if I wasn't stuck behind an NDA. For people that are interested in IT and in learning new technologies, there is a ton of cool stuff.
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Jul 1, 2014 15:43
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Can we go back to the guy offering a $10/hour job in Shanghai wanna hear more about this great opportunity e:  ^^
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Jul 1, 2014 15:43
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Bloodnose posted:But the thing that confuses me is that these highly qualified people should have opportunities to work in places that both offer good job quality and good money. Do you offer blowjobs to everyone or something? What makes your workplace so much better than places that pay better? I offer them nothing but blood, toil, tears and street making GBS threads. Honestly. I mention street making GBS threads in the interview.
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Jul 1, 2014 15:44
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPGHjf2GqMQ&t=68s
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Jul 1, 2014 15:45
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LentThem posted:I could make a much better sales pitch than my thing earlier if I wasn't stuck behind an NDA. For people that are interested in IT and in learning new technologies, there is a ton of cool stuff. You need to fix that. Do it. As in, do the HR people's job for them.
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Jul 1, 2014 15:46
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Arakan posted:Can we go back to the guy offering a $10/hour job in Shanghai wanna hear more about this great opportunity This reminds me, where the hell has Facepalm Ranger got to?
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Jul 1, 2014 15:49
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I'm in the running for an arts job in Hong Kong with a salary range of $37000-47000 HKD/month, housing not included. What kind of lifestyle would that afford me? Would I be able to live alone (I'm assuming the apartment would be <400 sqft)?
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Jul 1, 2014 15:54
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GuestBob posted:You need to fix that. Do it. As in, do the HR people's job for them. "Was Snowden telling the truth? Sign the contract and maybe you'll find out!" But really guys I have no idea where the salary range on that website came from and I should have just linked an expired LinkedIn posting instead.
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Jul 1, 2014 15:55
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By the way, the real thing I meant by "Real Job" is working "full time" hours. That's all I meant. One of my good friends from childhood is teaching yoga for 4 hours a week in Xiamen, with his 10 hour per week English teaching girlfriend. They don't consider themselves to have Real Jobs but it doesn't really matter, because they're saving more money and paying down student loans faster than when they did hace Real Jobs back in America.
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Jul 1, 2014 16:04
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MeramJert posted:By the way, the real thing I meant by "Real Job" is working "full time" hours. That's all I meant. You can be a feckless hippy and still make lots of money. You're still digging here: "You can have a non-real job and still make lots of money money =X= you can have a real job and make not lots of money." I have a real job and I don't make lots of money. The only reason I am chasing this point (and I am not doing it seriously) is because it's one of the things that helps with recruitment. Some people look at "job" first and "salary" second: I find these are also often good people. GuestBob fucked around with this message at 16:18 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 16:12
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2 + 2 = 5 posted:I'm in the running for an arts job in Hong Kong with a salary range of $37000-47000 HKD/month, housing not included. What kind of lifestyle would that afford me? Would I be able to live alone (I'm assuming the apartment would be <400 sqft)? You'll be fine. Assuming you don't need to live on the north side of Hong Kong Island, you can get a 600-800 square foot place for $10000-15000.
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Jul 1, 2014 16:24
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GuestBob posted:You're still digging here: Well, my hippy friends don't actually make much money, their living costs are low, but they're still happy. Of course you can do like ghostbob and do significant work for a low paycheck, and some people are fine with that. But on some level you're being taken advantage of by your employer (even more than the rest of us) and in general, it seems like it should be hard to find people to fill those positions when there exist jobs that are both good and pay competitively.
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Jul 1, 2014 16:27
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Bloodnose posted:But the thing that confuses me is that these highly qualified people should have opportunities to work in places that both offer good job quality and good money. Do you offer blowjobs to everyone or something? What makes your workplace so much better than places that pay better? I think it must have something to do with cultural internalization of this:  and on a purely practical level this:  In education particularly if you're not aware of state budget cuts as federal stimulus ended in 2009 and 2010 you're probably not aware of the labor glut that resulted. Idiotic balanced-budget laws (or even constitutional amendments) that many states' conservative lawmakers enacted throughout the 90s blew enormous holes in education budgets across the US when the 2008 recession hit. Temporary federal stimulus may have softened the blow but caused the budget pain to lag well after 2008. In 2011 when I was still in the US state budgets were still a disaster, and thus the education labor force was still in a very bad place for job searchers. In 2011 I showed for an interview being conducted for 3 internships in the Arizona public education system. About 30 people showed up, including people in late middle age. That summer my employer* told me I had been hired over 70 other more-qualified applicants because I was young and I spoke Chinese. (Which I understand may be illegal discrimination.) My coworkers had 10-15 years of experience and advanced degrees. It's three years later now, but that's the kind of competition for entry-level positions that existed in the field in 2011. *A genuinely really nice guy in his last months before retirement. Real Mr. Rogers type. I can't believe he would exaggerate for cynical reasons. Should've taken that history job in Connecticut in 2013. 
Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 16:41 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 16:33
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MeramJert posted:...taken advantage of... The last two bonuses I have received have been accompanied with personal apologies from heads of departments because they don't match the work I have done. I might be underpaid, but I am not being taken advantage of.
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Jul 1, 2014 16:39
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2 + 2 = 5 posted:I'm in the running for an arts job in Hong Kong with a salary range of $37000-47000 HKD/month, housing not included. What kind of lifestyle would that afford me? Would I be able to live alone (I'm assuming the apartment would be <400 sqft)? You'd be doing better than me.
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Jul 1, 2014 16:44
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GuestBob posted:The last two bonuses I have received have been accompanied with personal apologies from heads of departments because they don't match the work I have done. I'll be  Arglebargle III posted:In education particularly if you're not aware of state budget cuts as federal stimulus ended in 2009 and 2010 you're probably not aware of the labor glut that resulted. Idiotic balanced-budget laws (or even constitutional amendments) that many states' conservative lawmakers enacted throughout the 90s blew enormous holes in education budgets across the US when the 2008 recession hit. Temporary federal stimulus may have softened the blow but caused the budget pain to lag well after 2008. In 2011 when I was still in the US state budgets were still a disaster, and thus the education labor force was still in a very bad place for job searchers. Education budgets were getting hammered long before the recession, but that's another issue. The sector in general is horrible to work in these days Stateside unless you're an administrator, which tells you a lot about how much worse actually working as a teacher there is going to get. blinkyzero fucked around with this message at 16:51 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 16:47
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GuestBob posted:The last two bonuses I have received have been accompanied with personal apologies from heads of departments because they don't match the work I have done. I don't follow.
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Jul 1, 2014 16:47
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Quite sure you are bro
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Jul 1, 2014 16:49
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On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with somebody deciding that the market's valuation of their labor is wrong, and they're going to do it anyway despite low pay because they believe it's valuable. Of course, capitalism and so on.
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Jul 1, 2014 16:50
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Arglebargle III posted:On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with somebody deciding that the market's valuation of their labor is wrong, and they're going to do it anyway despite low pay because they believe it's valuable. Of course, capitalism and so on. I don't think it's wrong other than in a idealistic sense where I sort of wish the labor of the world would go on a sort of reverse galt's gulch sort of strike.
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Jul 1, 2014 16:52
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Arglebargle III posted:On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with somebody deciding that the market's valuation of their labor is wrong, and they're going to do it anyway despite low pay because they believe it's valuable. Of course, capitalism and so on. If only all those filthy unions would arrive at this conclusion, our problems would be solved!
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Jul 1, 2014 16:54
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For the record, I'm also underpaid and knowingly entered into a bad contract this year because I enjoy the job and have a plan which includes using this particular job as a stepping stone to better things, hopefully. I'm just projecting, ghostbob.
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Jul 1, 2014 16:58
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