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Hat Thoughts posted:I read the first book 5 years ago and barely remember it, should I read the second one? As an academic in training, a year out from my PhD, I really liked both books until they leave the university when--and I know I won't shut about about this--the author decides to engage in some seriously aspie sex fantasy about dominating Venus, controlling, and exploiting (insert any goddess of sex). I found that last bit extremely off putting and sexist. ZombieLenin fucked around with this message at 00:41 on Jul 2, 2014 |
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Jul 2, 2014 00:39
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ZombieLenin posted:As an academic in training, a year out from my PhD, I really liked both books until they leave the university when--and I know I won't shut about about this--the author decides to engage in some seriously aspie sex fantasy about dominating Venus, controlling, and exploiting (insert any goddess of sex). Surprisingly, Rothfuss considers himself some sort of highly progressive feminist.
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Jul 2, 2014 00:49
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keiran_helcyan posted:If the scam is really nothing more than [Bursar and Kvothe steal money from the Maer, neither the Maer or the University check the math], then why do the song and dance routine? Even if Kvothe's tuition was low, the Bursar could still inflate the fake bill to whatever he wanted and pocket the difference from the Maer. I assume bombing the entrance exam was cover to make the high tuition for the oh-so-smart Kvothe not raise any eyebrows, and I imagine that if Bursar tried it without Kvothe's participation he'd be caught pretty quickly, most likely by Kvothe.
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Jul 2, 2014 01:05
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pentyne posted:Surprisingly, Rothfuss considers himself some sort of highly progressive feminist. He's responded to criticism about the sex fairy living kvothe. Apparently all his critics are just prudes. To be quite honest, that's the single point that made me think Kvothe isn't intended as a clueless arsehole, but instead as a hero figure with "drawbacks", and perhaps even a feminist role model. I gave up on the series after reading Rothfuss' blog. If you like the books, avoid the author entirely.
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Jul 2, 2014 01:23
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The Supreme Court posted:He's responded to criticism about the sex fairy living kvothe. Apparently all his critics are just prudes. His blog features things like a large post about circumcision, as well as a really terrible metaphor to describe why he hates the Lord of the Rings movies. It's certainly special, alright.
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Jul 2, 2014 01:32
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The Supreme Court posted:He's responded to criticism about the sex fairy living kvothe. Apparently all his critics are just prudes. "I'm probably the strongest male feminist you know. What woman wouldn't love a magically enhanced sex ninja plowing them for hours on end until they pass out from pleasure?"
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Jul 2, 2014 02:05
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Srice posted:His blog features things like a large post about circumcision, as well as a really terrible metaphor to describe why he hates the Lord of the Rings movies. It's certainly special, alright. I love how he's simultaneously a feminist, but can only express his dislike of something in terms of 'this woman didn't stay as pure as she was in my fantasy, and that's terrible.'
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Jul 2, 2014 02:27
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MrFlibble posted:This is the part that bothers me. If this is the scheme then purposefully bombing his interview (I know he only does it a little and the dick teacher fucks him over royally for it unexpectedly) is stupid and having a system in place to share money after however many talents even more so. So he gets charged 50 talents and then the Bursar adds 30 to the bill to split between him and Kvothe? Makes no loving sense to want a big price. It's just a poorly reasoned solution to the arbitrary money problem that Rothfuss has been throwing Kvothe since the first book. There is no logical way that the plan works as a good plan. Either the bursar is overcharging the Mear, and Kvothe is purposefully getting a high tuition for absolutely no reason (unless he's trying to waste the Mear's cash, which would be a drop in the bucket anyway). Or, they're just flat out stealing money from the school, which makes no sense because if that's what they were doing, why would the bursar not just do that on his own and not give Kvothe poo poo? The only way it makes sense as collusion is if Kvothe comes in and goes, "so this guy owes me big, and he said he'll cover my costs whatever they are. He's richer than god, and if you overcharge him for my tuition, no one will even notice unless I tell him -and that's why you'll give me half." The Supreme Court posted:He's responded to criticism about the sex fairy living kvothe. Apparently all his critics are just prudes. Rothfuss is not a feminist (going by his blog posts and ignoring for the moment that Kvothe is a serious self-insert/wish fulfillment character). Kvothe is the fantasy equivalent of an internet Nice Guy, and Rothfuss doesn't seem like his own ideas are that dissimilar. I can give a longer explanation with a bunch of examples, but A.) it's been done elsewhere already, and B.) I don't think anyone here actually buys the idea that the text or Rothfuss is in anyway feminist. Now, admittedly, I teach classes in composition and film at a big ten school while I'm finishing a PhD in Writing Studies with a grad minor in Gender and Women's Studies. So from what I can tell from his blog, I am actually the sort of person that Rothfuss hates most (one of those stuck up academics keeping brilliant artists down  .)EDIT: A good read on why Rothfuss should probably stop blogging http://nomoredeadparents.wordpress.com/2013/08/16/the-hazards-of-authors-blogging/ Karnegal fucked around with this message at 02:43 on Jul 2, 2014 |
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Jul 2, 2014 02:34
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That blog post is fun because the obvious solution is to just write it as "you smell so good it's making me stupid," also because of all the gooniness it oozes, of course but it is certainly pointless even without that. PupsOfWar fucked around with this message at 03:34 on Jul 2, 2014 |
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Jul 2, 2014 03:25
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Velius posted:Because one body is really similar to another, a cloth doll is not very similar to a person, I would venture. I figured it had to belong to that person to affect them directly. Like why wouldn't you be able to just use some of your blood, bind it to some other person, and then boil it. Or just bleed some homeless person and use theirs to fight any one else.
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Jul 2, 2014 03:37
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Solice Kirsk posted:I figured it had to belong to that person to affect them directly. Like why wouldn't you be able to just use some of your blood, bind it to some other person, and then boil it. Or just bleed some homeless person and use theirs to fight any one else. DO NOT USE YOUR OWN BLOOD IN A SYMPATHETIC MURDER SPELL FOR SERIOUS
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Jul 2, 2014 17:02
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Well that's my point. He stabbed some dead dude to kill other living dudes. Why would you ever need one specific person's blood, hair, fingernails, pee, etc. if you can just use some other person's stuff and bind it to anyone else. I must be missing something, but I thought they pretty much said you need a specific person's fluids to malfeasance the hell out of them. Eh, what ever. I don't really care.
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Jul 2, 2014 19:15
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Solice Kirsk posted:Well that's my point. He stabbed some dead dude to kill other living dudes. Why would you ever need one specific person's blood, hair, fingernails, pee, etc. if you can just use some other person's stuff and bind it to anyone else. I must be missing something, but I thought they pretty much said you need a specific person's fluids to malfeasance the hell out of them. Well, he had line of sight on the other dudes he was trying to kill, plus the corpse he was using was one of their group, presumably wearing the same uniform etc. You wouldn't get a perfect link out of it, but it was probably way better than using some random cadaver.
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Jul 2, 2014 19:19
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keiran_helcyan posted:If the scam is really nothing more than [Bursar and Kvothe steal money from the Maer, neither the Maer or the University check the math], then why do the song and dance routine? Even if Kvothe's tuition was low, the Bursar could still inflate the fake bill to whatever he wanted and pocket the difference from the Maer. Hey, I know I'm a day late and a talent short but that's not quite it. After the Maer offered to pay his full tuition, he goes to the bursar and says "Hey, you know how my tuition is always between three talents and negative three talents? Now that the University is getting paid directly from someone literally rich as the King of Vint, how about I aim for really really high tuition, and you can pay me just a little of the excess. More money for everyone!". He comes by his high tuition honestly, by loving up the exams.
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Jul 2, 2014 21:34
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SolTerrasa posted:He comes by his high tuition honestly, by loving up the exams. Which makes no sense, of course, unless the bursar has all sorts of ability to fiddle the numbers (in which case, why split with Kvothe)?
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Jul 2, 2014 21:46
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Kvothe is the one with the blank check, the dude who's tuition its based on, and who brought the idea to him. Why wouldn't he get cut in?
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Jul 2, 2014 22:32
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If the bursar can just skim money off of high tuitions it's not really clear why he needs Kvothe's tuition to be high. He can just steal from the other people with high tuitions without telling anyone, thus keeping all the money for himself. I haven't read the book in forever though so maybe the scheme is more clever than this.
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Jul 2, 2014 23:15
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So Kvothe's tuition is basically a Milo Minderbinder business plan.
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Jul 2, 2014 23:41
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Solice Kirsk posted:Well that's my point. He stabbed some dead dude to kill other living dudes. Why would you ever need one specific person's blood, hair, fingernails, pee, etc. if you can just use some other person's stuff and bind it to anyone else. I must be missing something, but I thought they pretty much said you need a specific person's fluids to malfeasance the hell out of them. This is not even close to a problem in the books. You can link any two things together with sympathy. It's just that the more dissimilar they are, the less efficient the link and thus the more energy you would need to actually do anything. A dead body from the same mercenary troop is way more similar to a living mercenary than some mud doll. Also he had line of sight and was quite close to the people he was killing. Someone getting your blood or hair is dangerous because you could form a link so efficient that you could kill them from very far away.
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Jul 3, 2014 00:12
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TychoCelchuuu posted:If the bursar can just skim money off of high tuitions it's not really clear why he needs Kvothe's tuition to be high. He can just steal from the other people with high tuitions without telling anyone, thus keeping all the money for himself.
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Jul 3, 2014 00:26
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Also the bursar mostly cares about getting more tuition for the school, so Kvothe intentionally bombing the test and making the school richer is a big win for him? If he refused to cut Kvothe in, Kvothe could just do his best and the school would get less money.
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Jul 3, 2014 00:38
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Above Our Own posted:So he overcharges the Maer on an already high tution; the University gets more money, the bursar gets more money, and Kvothe gets more money. ...except that the book states that Kvothe makes 50% of his tuition over 10 talents, which is explicitly calculated twice. If the bursar is overcharging the Maer, there's no reason not for this to be a flat fee.
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Jul 3, 2014 00:48
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How about we just all agree that the tuition scheme is poorly thought out and/or written. I would say that at least it only took Rothfuss two giant books to realize that people don't really give a poo poo about the Kvothe needs money/Kvothe gets money cycle, but he'll probably need money again at the start of the next book.
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Jul 3, 2014 01:53
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Just turn in your FAFSA on time like everyone else, Kvothe, christ
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Jul 3, 2014 01:56
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It kinda feels like a scheme that hinges upon nobody else getting to look at what's happening with money, which sounds weird for a big school like that! It's dumb but I don't mind it if it means we don't get another "Kvothe needs money" subplot in the next book. (We're so getting one of those)
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Jul 3, 2014 01:58
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I would love it if he gets thrown out of the University with in the first 50 pages of the next book....but its probably gonna be 750 pages setting up his expulsion and repairing his relationship with Denna.
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Jul 3, 2014 02:34
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How much time does he have right now anyway, to get thrown out while "I got thrown out from the University younger than most people are allowed in" to still be true?
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Jul 3, 2014 04:00
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Rand Brittain posted:How much time does he have right now anyway, to get thrown out while "I got thrown out from the University younger than most people are allowed in" to still be true? a year? that's what in Rothfuss time - 800 pages?
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Jul 3, 2014 04:41
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Solice Kirsk posted:I would love it if he gets thrown out of the University with in the first 50 pages of the next book....but its probably gonna be 750 pages setting up his expulsion and repairing his relationship with Denna. Oh, his relationship with Denna will end really badly, probably when she marries some rich nobleman to be his "kept-woman" and Kvothe flips the gently caress out at her because he would treat her better and has been putting in so much time with her.
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Jul 3, 2014 04:58
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pentyne posted:"I'm probably the strongest male feminist you know. What woman wouldn't love a magically enhanced sex ninja plowing them for hours on end until they pass out from pleasure?"
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Jul 3, 2014 06:42
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mallamp posted:To be fair, many women write romance novels (targeted for other women) that go pretty much like that aswell. Romance novels take a lot of poo poo, but I would argue that the books you're referring to have female characters with much more agency than those in Kvotheland. For instance, Kvothe's sex with his martial arts teacher is pretty business like on her end (we get no indication she even enjoys it. In fact, it's billed as work she has to do so that she can get to her other work of training him), whereas Kvothe is getting a bunch of consequence free sex. Even if someone gets pregnant, he's off the hook because their culture is so stupid that they don't think sex produces babies (an idea that exists only that Kvothe can have no-consequence sex).
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Jul 3, 2014 07:14
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Solice Kirsk posted:I would love it if he gets thrown out of the University with in the first 50 pages of the next book....but its probably gonna be 750 pages setting up his expulsion and repairing his relationship with Denna. I thought he already got expelled. He attacked future king dork, spoke the name of the wind, got caught, expelled reinstated, and promoted to the next school rank in like 3 pages. It's the moment you figure out even if the legend is true none of it happened how anyone who heard it would think it did.
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Jul 3, 2014 14:11
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Hughlander posted:I thought he already got expelled. He attacked future king dork, spoke the name of the wind, got caught, expelled reinstated, and promoted to the next school rank in like 3 pages. It's the moment you figure out even if the legend is true none of it happened how anyone who heard it would think it did. Except the parts that were exactly the way they were described - Felurian, calling the lightning down on the bandits, being trained by the Adem. The book is really inconsistent about the idea that these are all legends. The most impressive ones are pretty much exactly true, and the poo poo that no one would ever care about in reality (getting whipped and not bleeding) are the only ones that are really exaggerated. Burning down the town is pretty much the only case for a misinterpreted event turning to "legend." The whole thing sort of falls apart because the events that are supposedly being misinterpreted only happened 10 years prior. They make no sense because a lot of them have ample eye witnesses. It's just not how legends and folklore work.
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Jul 3, 2014 14:47
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Karnegal posted:Except the parts that were exactly the way they were described - Felurian, calling the lightning down on the bandits, being trained by the Adem. The book is really inconsistent about the idea that these are all legends. The most impressive ones are pretty much exactly true, and the poo poo that no one would ever care about in reality (getting whipped and not bleeding) are the only ones that are really exaggerated. Burning down the town is pretty much the only case for a misinterpreted event turning to "legend." The whole thing sort of falls apart because the events that are supposedly being misinterpreted only happened 10 years prior. They make no sense because a lot of them have ample eye witnesses. It's just not how legends and folklore work. Well Slenderman is a thing and it certainly is less than 10 years old with tons of goons knowing the origin and yet we still get kids stabbing each other to please him.
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Jul 3, 2014 16:58
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I've heard people misinterpret invents that happened 10 minutes ago. Ten years after the fact a story can turn into pretty much anything.
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Jul 3, 2014 17:51
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Solice Kirsk posted:Well Slenderman is a thing and it certainly is less than 10 years old with tons of goons knowing the origin and yet we still get kids stabbing each other to please him. I don't know if the analogy holds. Slenderman benefits immensely from the internet as a way of spreading (false) information. It also has a lot of fabricated evidence to back it up that just plain doesn't exist in Kvotheland. I don't see how most of the rumors actually work in his world. Kvothe going around saying "Kvothe has demon blood" is just an idiotic concept. How does that even work? Doesn't he just become the kid whose uncle "works at Nintendo?" Similarly, he makes up a chronicler story and then he's like, next week you'll have your own full mythology. That makes no sense. It's one thing to tell a fictional story as a fictional story, but why would everyone (having never heard of chronicler) suddenly buy into it as real and then start building a mythology for him? People are talking about Kvothe with the sort of fervor usually reserved for a religious figure, but that sort of legend doesn't generally happen within a person's lifetime. Think of it like a modern celebrity - a better analog for Kvothe than Slenderman. Sure, there may be rumors that Celebrity X is an rear end in a top hat or did something bad, but these are usually within the realms of normal human behavior. It's not like people generally believe that Tom Cruise has a secret moonbase or that Morgan Freeman is actually a robot. Also, no one really cares about what most notable people did prior to the things that made them famous or infamous. Like, we all know Hitler did some awful poo poo, and we can probably talk about that. We have a vague sense of failed at art as a back story, but what can you tell me off the top of your head about his childhood? What were is parents like? No one cares, and we have way better information preservation poo poo than people in Kvotheland. Now sure, there will be historians who know this stuff, but the general public is only really concerned with the big important stuff he is known for and he's arguably the most negative figure in the past hundred years. Likewise, the general public doesn't have wildly inaccurate ideas about what happened in the holocaust. Not everyone has it perfect, but we regard people with wildly divergent ideas (it never happened) as nutcases and assume they're racist. Now, what we do have a lot of is folklore about incidental stuff not related to specific historical events. In regard to Hitler, people make up a lot of poo poo - there is a lot of talk about his sexual deviancy for instance. This all has a cultural purpose though - maybe it's generated to put him down and separate the general public from him. Perhaps we need him to be really messed up across all facets of his life because we don't want to think of him as at all like us in any conceivable way. From what I understand, we're told that Kvothe is not believed to be a good guy in his world (I don't think they view him as Hitler, but it sounds like he has a big hand in loving things up), but most of the legends are about making him sound badass. Even if the people were making legends about a very contemporary figure, wouldn't they be more focused on the negative? Why are their singing his praises about how clever he was for getting out of his trial? Why not attribute the action to some sort of negative - putting a spell on the judge or consorting with demons? Everything they say just seems to be made to make him look more badass. The other big problem is that he actually does the most fantastical poo poo pretty much as described. I give Rothfuss credit for the idea of writing a book exploring the intersection of truth and legend, but I think the execution is totally bungled because Kvothe is such a Mary Sue. The big events that should be the ones that are distorted are the most unbelievable ones. The burning down of Trebon is the only one that really delivers. But, he did actually sex Felurian just like the story. In fact, the rumors might be a slightly less ridiculous version than the reality. Similarly, he does know "deep mysterious magics" he blows up bandits with goddamn lightning. That's not the science magic that he spends the whole series claiming isn't magic, it's real crazy magic. The Adem do teach him their super secret beat everyone martial art. I think the ultimate problem is that Rothfuss sets up a scenario where Kvothe was supposed to be rather competent but the stories people tell make him out to be larger than life. By the end of the second book is is just larger than life. He has access to magic (whenever he really needs it) that few people in the world even believe exists (even though the only magic school actively teaches it). He can fight better than anyone he is likely to encounter outside of supernatural forces. He actually bones an ancient sex goddess that has a track record of killing everyone she encounters. All of this is less interesting than if he had just got through obstacles with a bit of trickery and deception. Early on, it seems like this might be the case (him listening in on the entrance exam questions to get by on a combination of smarts and cheating), but by the end of the second book, we're pretty much at a point where he just is inhumanly good at everything.
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Jul 3, 2014 23:22
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Your reply seems to be comparing celebrity as it occurs in the modern age, instead of the more analogous premodern societies where legendary corruption of fact did occur even while the objects of legend were still alive, but I think your other points stand. I agree that the execution IS bungled because the author wasn't sure if he wanted to do an interesting take on how historical fact and myth relate, or just write a book about Ferris Beuller Wizard Goku Above Our Own fucked around with this message at 00:21 on Jul 4, 2014 |
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Jul 4, 2014 00:18
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pentyne posted:Oh, his relationship with Denna will end really badly, probably when she marries some rich nobleman to be his "kept-woman" and Kvothe flips the gently caress out at her because he would treat her better and has been putting in so much time with her. Really? From how the book goes, she will do one even worse and the person she is working for is one of the chandrian. In his attempt to kill him, he kills her and turns out the chandrain is the king making it the kingkiller chronicles. I have read the books many times, I still really enjoy them.
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Jul 4, 2014 10:48
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Above Our Own posted:Your reply seems to be comparing celebrity as it occurs in the modern age, instead of the more analogous premodern societies where legendary corruption of fact did occur even while the objects of legend were still alive, but I think your other points stand. I read a really good blog post last week from a PhD student who studies folklore on why the majority of fantasy authors have a really poor understanding of myth, legend, and folklore. I've been trying to find it again for the past few days, but I've had no luck. At any rate, there was a specific call out on Rothfuss for inaccuracy in the area. I really wish I had the article, it was a good read 
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Jul 5, 2014 02:42
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Karnegal posted:I read a really good blog post last week from a PhD student who studies folklore on why the majority of fantasy authors have a really poor understanding of myth, legend, and folklore. I've been trying to find it again for the past few days, but I've had no luck. At any rate, there was a specific call out on Rothfuss for inaccuracy in the area. I really wish I had the article, it was a good read I'd love to read it. I read a CJ Cherry fantasy book and it was nothing more then fantasy China with the depth of a 4th grade history book. Most fantasy writers seem to read a book or two on a non-native culture's folklore and mythology and then twist it to suit their perceptions and write. The only series I've read that didn't do that was the original Black Company trilogy.
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Jul 5, 2014 02:59
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