|
justsharkbait posted:Now-a-days you can pretty much sale snake oil if you say it helps prevent terrorism. People will throw their freedoms away to feel "safe", so i think out of the two options that is the most likely to be feasible.
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2014 02:09
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 08:19 |
|
|
http://www.cbs46.com/story/25929695/baby-bou-bou-makes-first-public-appearance Here's what the kid from the OP's post looks like today, all things considered he's doing well and hopefully with plastic surgery his scars will be almost gone with time. But god gently caress satan hell poo poo this makes me so angry every time I think about it, I have twin boys that are younger than this kid but he looks a lot like them and it hurts to just watch what happened to this poor kid  Been bummbed about it all month since I read about in may. Frankly just letting drug dealers go free seems like a better solution than what is going on right now.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2014 10:00
|
|
|
I'm curious on what, if any, the general consensus is on de-criminalising hard drugs like Heroin, Crack cocaine and Methamphetamine is among Goons.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2014 12:13
|
|
|
Legal or illegal, just loving ban no knock raids for anything but stuff like hostage situations and the like. Drug crimes ain't worth the SWAT team. Especially not since the SWAT team is a bunch of loving idiots a lot of the time.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2014 12:26
|
|
|
Bernard McFacknutah posted:I'm curious on what, if any, the general consensus is on de-criminalising hard drugs like Heroin, Crack cocaine and Methamphetamine is among Goons. de-criminalise them. There is literally no way the problem can become worse at this point in time, and the threat of jail and prison just for talking to social workers about your addiction means people die in droves from things like disease.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2014 12:43
|
|
|
Bernard McFacknutah posted:I'm curious on what, if any, the general consensus is on de-criminalising hard drugs like Heroin, Crack cocaine and Methamphetamine is among Goons. At least for heroin making it legal for doctors to prescribe and pharmacies to sell would probably save a lot of lives. Methadone is one hell of a drug.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2014 13:02
|
|
|
Bernard McFacknutah posted:I'm curious on what, if any, the general consensus is on de-criminalising hard drugs like Heroin, Crack cocaine and Methamphetamine is among Goons. There are some good reasons to believe A) hard drug addicts are less likely to OD when they're getting regulated drugs instead of whatever they can find on the street and B) if you give them a safe place and access to clean needles, they'll use them. I'm not sure you should be able to go into CVS and get a bag of heroin, but there are civilized ways of dealing with hard drug addicts. Instead of going after the dealers with bigger and bigger guns, offer the addicts a deal on drugs they can't refuse.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2014 13:07
|
|
|
Bernard McFacknutah posted:I'm curious on what, if any, the general consensus is on de-criminalising hard drugs like Heroin, Crack cocaine and Methamphetamine is among Goons. Their "hardness" is an illusion, all these drugs used to be available in drugstores. It was the perception of their use by the Other that led to their criminalization, not the health risk they posed. Certainly all drugs should be available to be administered by trained medical staff at sanitary facilities; from a policing standpoint, as was said let's quit flashbanging kids to keep people from flushing drugs down the toilet. It doesn't matter what kind of drug it is.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2014 13:44
|
|
|
His Divine Shadow posted:Legal or illegal, just loving ban no knock raids for anything but stuff like hostage situations and the like. Drug crimes ain't worth the SWAT team. Especially not since the SWAT team is a bunch of loving idiots a lot of the time. This. The stated purpose of the no-knock raid as a warrant serving tool is to prevent drug dealers from destroying evidence. In no way, shape, or form is a few extra years on a dealer's sentence worth the number of people, pets, and children killed and maimed by botched SWAT raids each year.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2014 15:08
|
|
|
Removing police discretion would be a terrible idea on more than just the burden on the legal system. The police would be treated as if they were members of the KGB or the Gestapo (basically, how they are seen in poor neighborhoods right now). Better just clam up around them and avoid them entirely if possible, lest they be forced to arrest you for something. We want community policing, and an end to the us vs. them mentality. The solution also isn't to simply eliminate traffic laws and misdemeanors. Street making GBS threads, Jaywalking, disturbing the peace and indecent exposure are not something we should be clamoring to deregulate. A cop should be able to ignore a drunk or homeless man peeing in an alleyway, while able to arrest a pervert twirling his dick at random passerby on broadway. A cop should be able to ignore a histrionic rear end in a top hat who thinks kids playing rap music at a reasonable level is disturbing the peace, while breaking up a 3am park concert.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2014 15:45
|
|
|
I work in London as a police officer, my father was also a police officer and he spent a large portion of his career trying to stop the importation of Heroin in to the UK. By the end of his career he was entirely in favor of De-criminalisation of drugs and just strict regulations put in place, basically try and restrict the supply but keep it cheap enough that it isn't worth it for people to smuggle in and supply more of it. That's the attitude I joined with, but after working for a year in some of the roughest parts of London I have to say Heroin use is so destructive, even when it's carried out without the specter of arrest or prosecution, that it ruins lives and families and it really is something that people need to be protected from. You get people who can live a perfectly productive and positive life if they use most drugs in a recreational way (alcohol is still our biggest threat to public order) but I've yet to meet a Heroin user who could live a functional life whilst still using. Saying that there is no such thing as 'hard' drugs and saying cannabis, khat and ecstasy are no more damaging than smack and it's all perception is very wrong. Meth use over here seems to be a lot more unusual and the only time I've come across it is among the gay clubbing scene and we found a meth lab a few weeks ago but even that seems to be a lot softer on the user than Heroin.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2014 16:40
|
|
|
Bernard McFacknutah posted:That's the attitude I joined with, but after working for a year in some of the roughest parts of London I have to say Heroin use is so destructive, even when it's carried out without the specter of arrest or prosecution, that it ruins lives and families and it really is something that people need to be protected from. You get people who can live a perfectly productive and positive life if they use most drugs in a recreational way (alcohol is still our biggest threat to public order) but I've yet to meet a Heroin user who could live a functional life whilst still using. You're suffering from a lack of perspective. Many people are totally functional with a heroin, cocaine or amphetamine habit, they just have a socioeconomic advantage that protects them from the effects you see.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2014 16:55
|
|
|
Bernard McFacknutah posted:That's the attitude I joined with, but after working for a year in some of the roughest parts of London I have to say Heroin use is so destructive, even when it's carried out without the specter of arrest or prosecution, that it ruins lives and families and it really is something that people need to be protected from. You get people who can live a perfectly productive and positive life if they use most drugs in a recreational way (alcohol is still our biggest threat to public order) but I've yet to meet a Heroin user who could live a functional life whilst still using. What about those who are already addicted? We're not talking about legalizing it for recreational use here. You are aware of how dangerous cutting of the heroin from addicts or replacing it with Methadone is, right? 
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2014 16:57
|
|
|
Bernard McFacknutah posted:That's the attitude I joined with, but after working for a year in some of the roughest parts of London I have to say Heroin use is so destructive, even when it's carried out without the specter of arrest or prosecution, that it ruins lives and families and it really is something that people need to be protected from. You get people who can live a perfectly productive and positive life if they use most drugs in a recreational way (alcohol is still our biggest threat to public order) but I've yet to meet a Heroin user who could live a functional life whilst still using. What criminal laws or punishments do you think can help the situation you see in London? Here in the USA we have mandatory minimum sentencing that puts dealers in jail for a long time regardless of what the judge thinks, it doesn't seem to be discouraging anything. When addicts will jump through any hoops they need to for their drug of choice, what can you do to keep the drug out of your communities aside from education?
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2014 17:01
|
|
|
Xoidanor posted:What about those who are already addicted? We're not talking about legalizing it for recreational use here. You are aware of how dangerous cutting of the heroin from addicts or replacing it with Methadone is, right? Yep, it's better to treat abuse and misuse than punish to it, it's also cheaper and with drugs being more plentiful in our prisons that outside of them it's going to be a million times more effective. I was told that methadone (which is constantly abused in London) has a mortality rate of something like 8 times that of street heroin and in my experience they tend to be taken in tandem. wixard posted:Alcohol is one of the best counterpoints to this idea. Some people can mess around with opiates and keep it under control, the classic example is William S Burroughs who managed to live what people might not call a happy life, but at least a productive one while usually addicted to morphine. A ton of people (Burroughs included) who manage to kick heroin replace it with alcohol, and their lifestyle ultimately doesn't change until they kick that addiction as well. I'm sure there are people who can dabble in Heroin and those that abuse and then go cold Turkey, I've found people in all manner of professions who use and abuse almost everything under the sun. Bar staff who abuse amphetamines, a nurse who used crack, but I've still never met someone who uses Heroin on a Friday night to let their hair down and then takes the kids to football the next morning. As for laws, decriminalize possession in personal quantities, have 'shooting galleries' with trained medical staff who can dispense small quantities of said drugs, spend the money saved on rehabilitation. Don't let non-violent drug users go to normal prisons. Ramp up the penalties for people who drive or commit violent crimes under the influence of any drugs (mostly alcohol), it's pretty sickening when you put someone before a judge because they have given someone life changing injuries after drunkenly glassing them or crashing a car in to them after they fell asleep because they just smoked a bowl and for their chief defense to be "sorry your Honour, I can't remember doing this because I was drunk" SedanChair posted:You're suffering from a lack of perspective. Many people are totally functional with a heroin, cocaine or amphetamine habit, they just have a socioeconomic advantage that protects them from the effects you see. Counterpoint: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Kristian_Rausing , many of them start off with a decent job, the 2.4 children and a nice house and it might stay that way for a while. I don't believe many people start using heroin on the street because they can't afford it. It's going to be tough for people to keep most jobs down when you are more or less out of it for 4-5 hours after use and then need to sleep all night.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2014 17:38
|
|
|
Bernard McFacknutah posted:I'm sure there are people who can dabble in Heroin and those that abuse and then go cold Turkey, I've found people in all manner of professions who use and abuse almost everything under the sun. Bar staff who abuse amphetamines, a nurse who used crack, but I've still never met someone who uses Heroin on a Friday night to let their hair down and then takes the kids to football the next morning. ChristsDickWorship fucked around with this message at 18:00 on Jul 3, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2014 17:56
|
|
|
Bernard McFacknutah posted:Counterpoint: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Kristian_Rausing , many of them start off with a decent job, the 2.4 children and a nice house and it might stay that way for a while. I don't believe many people start using heroin on the street because they can't afford it. It's going to be tough for people to keep most jobs down when you are more or less out of it for 4-5 hours after use and then need to sleep all night. Counterpoint: a guy who kept his dead wife in the house for a couple of days? I don't get it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2014 18:13
|
|
|
Police are just the rich white man's gang. I get that the low level bangers on the street are just trying to get by while maintaining their rep. We need to work on educational outreach to help people avoid joining that gang in the first place and, if they are in the life, we need programs to help them get out of it. The police are well entrenched in our society, but I believe we can eliminate them so everyone in every community can enjoy a better life.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2014 18:15
|
|
|
Bernard McFacknutah posted:I'm curious on what, if any, the general consensus is on de-criminalising hard drugs like Heroin, Crack cocaine and Methamphetamine is among Goons. 2) Everything also gets basic regulation. Age requirements, fines and/or prison for doing dangerous things while using the substance, etc. Alcohol and tobacco regulations are a good place to start, which is of course ironic because they both kill more people and wreck more families than all of the other illegal drugs combined. Taxes and fines levied from these substances go towards abuse treatment. As other posters have said, this idea that drugs like Heroin and Crack are a demonic scourge that instantly ensnares all users with its mind blowing addictive powers and deathly effects is a farce created to scare people. We live in a world where a significant percentage of the people in your white collar office buildings are functional and addicted to alcohol or pain pills, and one or two are probably also functional and addicted to meth or heroin. I'm not sure why anyone thinks legalizing and regulating drugs would bring down society.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2014 18:24
|
|
|
I mean heroin is functionally no different than any other strong opiate, and the idea that people aren't functioning on huge daily doses of opiates is laughable.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2014 18:27
|
|
|
Liquid Communism posted:This. The stated purpose of the no-knock raid as a warrant serving tool is to prevent drug dealers from destroying evidence. In no way, shape, or form is a few extra years on a dealer's sentence worth the number of people, pets, and children killed and maimed by botched SWAT raids each year. The thing is getting rid of no knocks isn't going to stop the maiming and killing of innocent people and pets. This is taken from wikipedia: The Supreme Court has given some guidance as to how long officers must wait after knocking and announcing their presence before entry may be made. In U.S. v. Banks,the Supreme Court found 15 to 20 seconds to be a reasonable wait time where officers received no response after knocking and where officers feared the home occupant may be destroying the drug evidence targeted by the search warrant. As with most other things in the Fourth Amendment arena, the Court left reasonableness of the time period to be determined based on the totality of the circumstances; and thus inferior Federal courts have found even shorter time periods to be reasonable. So even if they do knock you are gonna have about 5 seconds realistically before they bust down your door. I personally think there is almost no warrant service situation in which a swat team needs to get involved. They should be purely for hostage and other known weapons in active play situations.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2014 18:28
|
|
|
SedanChair posted:I mean heroin is functionally no different than any other strong opiate, and the idea that people aren't functioning on huge daily doses of opiates is laughable. I've interacted with both groups, people who (albeit inject) use Heroin act and function completely differently than to people who are popping tramadol pills to get out of bed. Also painkiller abuse rates are probably a lot lower than the US on account of our excellent NHS. I don't think taking drugs makes you a bad person, I don't think becoming addicted makes you a bad person, although it does make you weak, but a lot of people do a lot of bad things when they use drugs.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2014 18:41
|
|
|
Bernard McFacknutah posted:people do a lot of bad things when they use drugs. I agree. Ban them all! 
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2014 19:00
|
|
|
ryonguy posted:I agree. Ban them all! And yet, he explicitly said otherwise...
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2014 19:23
|
|
|
Working in a college town, 90% of the calls I take involve alcohol in some way. I can't imagine how bad it would be if every other drug were legalized too.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2014 19:31
|
|
|
i'm ok with blanket legalization. Nobody who wouldn't already use it is likely to start shooting up heroin. I have no interest in doing coke or meth legal or not. I would like to be able to come home at night and relax by smoking a fat blunt though.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2014 19:37
|
|
|
deratomicdog posted:Working in a college town, 90% of the calls I take involve alcohol in some way. I can't imagine how bad it would be if every other drug were legalized too. Presuming you live in the US, college students being idiots with alcohol is mostly attributable to the 21 drinking age. Lower it to 18, and you'll see a lot more kids going into college with some common sense, rather than having to learn it the hard way once they're there.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2014 19:38
|
|
|
deratomicdog posted:Working in a college town, 90% of the calls I take involve alcohol in some way. I can't imagine how bad it would be if every other drug were legalized too. This thought process is like a Jack Chick comic where a kid becomes an atheist and murders his parents because suddenly without the threat of divine punishment (legal prosecution) he does everything evil he possibly can. Talmonis posted:And yet, he explicitly said otherwise... Of course, he just thinks making them legal is wrong and that's different from prohibition because
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2014 19:40
|
|
|
Ableist Kinkshamer posted:Presuming you live in the US, college students being idiots with alcohol is mostly attributable to the 21 drinking age. Lower it to 18, and you'll see a lot more kids going into college with some common sense, rather than having to learn it the hard way once they're there. People drink a shitton even before 18 in the US.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2014 19:40
|
|
|
computer parts posted:People drink a shitton even before 18 in the US. I never said they didn't. I merely said that a lot of the alcohol-related stupidity of under-21 college students is directly attributable to the fact that the drinking age is 21.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2014 19:43
|
|
|
Bernard McFacknutah posted:I've interacted with both groups, people who (albeit inject) use Heroin act and function completely differently than to people who are popping tramadol pills to get out of bed. A quick googling indicates you guys have similar problems with prescription drugs that we do in America, even with your healthcare. I figured it would be easier to go to rehab with your national healthcare, but that article describes a woman who had to sell her house to pay for rehab for pain pills her doctor was prescribing.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2014 19:49
|
|
|
The biggest social problems resulting from heroin addiction are caused by its illegality and lack of regulation. A heroin addict with a steady clean supply will be much healthier than a daylong alcoholic.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2014 20:01
|
|
|
Ableist Kinkshamer posted:Presuming you live in the US, college students being idiots with alcohol is mostly attributable to the 21 drinking age. Lower it to 18, and you'll see a lot more kids going into college with some common sense, rather than having to learn it the hard way once they're there. If you haven't got completely shiftfaced before your 15th birthday in the UK you are in a minority. For most teenagers here regardless of socio-economic class, alcohol has already formed a cornerstone of their social life by the age of 16. You could make the legal drinking age 30 and it would be pissing in the wind. It's a cultural problem that would take a couple of generations to solve. wixard posted:The biggest difference is the person addicted to painkillers doesn't have to go to that part of town to get them, whereas a lot of the people shooting heroin in alleys grew up in that part of town, or ended up there after failing somewhere else. The way the two work on their brain psychologically, what you called weakness, is the same because they are the same drug. People with addictive personalities can spiral to the same place buying pills, or laudanum, or heroin. I'm surprised by that, particularly as I don't think private doctors can dispense opiates, only proscribe them. Also take any anecdotal evidence or stories from the Daily Mail with a massive pinch of salt, that useless shitrag of a paper is half truths and lies.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2014 20:05
|
|
|
I'm really only wary of things that are likely to cause chemical dependencies. Smoke all the grass you want, take your ecstacy and drop some acid. Get your doctor to prescribe you some Cocaine, gently caress I don't care. Just keep opiates the gently caress away from the corporations. Because if that poo poo makes its way to being on the legal level of booze or cigarettes we'll never get rid of it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2014 20:12
|
|
|
Bernard McFacknutah posted:I'm surprised by that, particularly as I don't think private doctors can dispense opiates, only proscribe them. Also take any anecdotal evidence or stories from the Daily Mail with a massive pinch of salt, that useless shitrag of a paper is half truths and lies. Every single one of your arguments so far have been based entirely on anecdotal evidence, at least the Mail has sources. You are seeing people in different socioeconomic strata and somehow attributing their poverty-related problems to the drugs that they are taking. That's all that's going on here.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2014 20:15
|
|
|
Nobody cares about the actual science, our drug policies are entirely based around the perceptions of their users. Cocaine is viewed as a clean drug that can be easily managed by its upper and middle class users, but crack is something ugly junkies are addicted to. The punishment is metered accordingly.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2014 20:19
|
|
|
SedanChair posted:Every single one of your arguments so far have been based entirely on anecdotal evidence, at least the Mail has sources. Right, who cares about a cop's experiences on a thread about police. Let's defer to an armchair revolutionary goon.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2014 20:29
|
|
|
TheImmigrant posted:Right, who cares about a cop's experiences on a thread about police. Let's defer to an armchair revolutionary goon. That's all very interesting and full of content, but who do police interact with? Is it well-to-do people? Or those who manage their addictions and avoid arrest? It's people on the margins. It's like when doctors in early mental hospitals would observe their patients and say "my God, these people are all masturbating!"
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2014 20:34
|
|
|
SedanChair posted:Every single one of your arguments so far have been based entirely on anecdotal evidence, at least the Mail has sources. If you take a rag like the daily mail seriously and consider it a reliable source, then I encourage you to read more and absorb the sentiment and political messages it perpetrates. Please post your selfies of burning the Koran and making GBS threads on poor people just to let us know you've taken it in. That is if you can step away from that armchair experience for long enough. SedanChair posted:
Do tell me more about how being poor automatically qualify you to take opiates. Is there a precise level of income that would precipitate a person using these drugs or is it more about the value of your property?
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2014 20:43
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 08:19 |
|
|
I'm real familiar with the Mail, actually. Their data in this case is pretty uncontroversial, they may be reporting it because it's sensational but the fact remains that there is a prescription opiate abuse problem in the UK just like there is in the US which was the whole reason that article was linked in the first place, remember? Anyway, I think you've misunderstood something. Heroin is in fact more likely to be used by lower-income people, and many of the effects you see are either the result of prohibition (unreliable dosing, unhygenic practices, crime from street trade) or the result of poverty. You see people who are by definition coming into contact with law enforcement, that skews your experience.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2014 22:22
|
|