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mynameisjohn posted:EPO increases the amount of red blood cells (which transport oxygen), that's their "thickening action" (here's more on how those blood cells are formed [epo modifies hemocytoblast production] http://www.interactive-biology.com/3969/erythropoiesis-formation-of-red-blood-cells/). Thick blood is measured by an increased hematocrit score which is the amount of red blood cells you have per cl of blood. A greater quantity of red blood cells allows more oxygen to be delivered to the muscles which allows for greater recovery and less fatigue. For some reason I thought it was more complicated than that. That's pretty nuts that it causes that much of an increase in just the number of red blood cells to elicit that sort of effect. Is it used acutely or only really effective when it's sustained at that higher level (meaning you could just increase levels for a couple days to recover, then go back to normal)? If it's the former, do users also try to balance it with blood thinners?
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Jul 3, 2014 18:06
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Karl Sharks posted:Is it used acutely or only really effective when it's sustained at that higher level (meaning you could just increase levels for a couple days to recover, then go back to normal)? If it's the former, do users also try to balance it with blood thinners?
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Jul 3, 2014 18:12
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also this thread in the TRP is good and funny re: PED use in soccer http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3637793
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Jul 3, 2014 18:16
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The baseball chat in this thread is getting shouted down by people who watch baseball because whenever people want to talk about it they focus only on dingers.
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Jul 3, 2014 18:20
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I really don't give a poo poo about baseball. They can dope their mothers for all I care. On the other hand, it'd be interesting if someone could talk about the doping situation in rugby. From what I've read, rugby is the sport that suffers from the biggest impact of doping in France at all levels. Something that seemed funny though was that cannabis was considered a doping substance and by far the most commonly consumed. Other common substances seem to be growth hormone and steroids.
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Jul 3, 2014 18:30
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Doping should be a 10 year ban on first offense. At least WADA are raising it to 4 now. But a lot of the effects are permanent even after stopping usage, so there has to be a huge incentive not to ever do it. All American pro sports should adhere to the WADA code and have blood passport and random tests utilizing a whereabouts program. Way too much money in these sports for a clean athlete to ever have a chance.
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Jul 3, 2014 18:31
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Is it possible to scam a blood passport? Like dope yourself with EPO/blood doping right at the start when its taken so they measure enhanced levels and think its normal?
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Jul 3, 2014 18:33
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Mornacle has taught me that Performance Enhancing Drugs have been misnamed by Doctors worldwide as they don't actually improve performance because nobody has been arsed to see if someone has done a specific study on their favourite sport that they love and want to kiss that would make their favourite player of that sport look bad.
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Jul 3, 2014 18:38
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Jose posted:Is it possible to scam a blood passport? Like dope yourself with EPO/blood doping right at the start when its taken so they measure enhanced levels and think its normal? They can inject saline right before a blood test to lower their hematocrit so it doesn't get flagged
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Jul 3, 2014 18:38
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Jose posted:Is it possible to scam a blood passport? Like dope yourself with EPO/blood doping right at the start when its taken so they measure enhanced levels and think its normal?
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Jul 3, 2014 18:40
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There is an epidemic of recently retired Italian soccer players getting Lou Gherig's disease http://www.theguardian.com/football/2008/oct/08/europeanfootball.serieafootball Italian soccer was filthy in the 90's. Hell, probably still is.
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Jul 3, 2014 18:43
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vaginal culture posted:There is an epidemic of recently retired Italian soccer players getting Lou Gherig's disease
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Jul 3, 2014 18:45
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mynameisjohn posted:my Physical Therapist mostly deals with mma fighters and was talking to me about how they're all pissing their pants because a ton of their friends are former users and are getting lou gehrig's and they're all making bucket lists of poo poo to do before they turn 40 just in case. its hosed up poo poo for sure Tom. Makes me wonder how many of the poor health outcomes we are seeing in retired NFL players can be blamed by the substances they used. I don't think it is 100% concussions. I bet there are also unknown interactions between the painkillers they use. Retired Pro Bodybuilders overall seem pretty healthy compared to NFL players/WWF wrestlers etc.
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Jul 3, 2014 18:49
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vaginal culture posted:There is an epidemic of recently retired Italian soccer players getting Lou Gherig's disease considering the amount of matches they were fixing, doping was the lesser of the two crimes and I cant imagine they've made any effort to stop it http://www.4dfoot.com/2013/02/09/doping-in-football-fifty-years-of-evidence/ heres a pretty good list of notable doping cases in football
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Jul 3, 2014 18:58
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In the Puerto affair they found a powder that allow to fake EPO test, it's called "polvos de la madre Celestina" (poussières de la mère Célestine in french) : Small grains you put in your dicks before pissing, it's a protease that destroy the protein peptide bond like EPO. How good are steroids. Over 10 weeks : Group 1 did NOT do any form of exercise, and did NOT receive any form of steroids or drugs. (Natural guys doing no weight training.) Group 2 did NOT do any form of exercise, but they received weekly injections of 600 mg of testosterone enanthate. (Drug users doing no weight training.) Group 3 DID exercise, but they did NOT receive any form of steroids or drugs. (Natural guys doing weight training.) Group 4 DID exercise, and they also received weekly injections of 600 mg of testosterone enanthate. (Drug users doing weight training.) Result : Group 1 (no exercise, natural) experienced no significant changes. No surprise there. Group 2 (no exercise, drug use) was able to build about 7 pounds of muscle. That’s not a typo. The group receiving testosterone injections and NOT working out at all gained 7 pounds of muscle. Group 3 (exercise, natural) was able to build about 4 pounds of muscle. Group 4 (exercise, drug use) was able to build about 13 pounds of muscle. PED + No Training > hard training with no PED (and that's with "only" 600mg). http://www.aworkoutroutine.com/steroids-vs-natural/ Here is an example of steroids cycle the pros use in body building these days (only sport it's almost openly talked about) : quote:1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th week:
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Jul 3, 2014 19:01
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TelekineticBear! posted:http://www.4dfoot.com/2013/02/09/doping-in-football-fifty-years-of-evidence/ heres a pretty good list of notable doping cases in football This is a cool, good and interesting article - the sort of summary that I have been looking for.
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Jul 3, 2014 19:04
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Mr. Nice coming through with the knowledge bomb. Good posting, drat good in fact.
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Jul 3, 2014 19:04
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I know a bunch of kids who had relatively short experiences taking steroids - like a year or two in college - would they have long term effects, or most likely be okay?
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Jul 3, 2014 19:09
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tbp posted:I know a bunch of kids who had relatively short experiences taking steroids - like a year or two in college - would they have long term effects, or most likely be okay? Im guessing its all dependent on the dosages and the drugs, college kids just taking test or dbol or something for a year or two will most likely be perfectly fine so long as they had no major side effects at the time
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Jul 3, 2014 19:13
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tbp posted:I know a bunch of kids who had relatively short experiences taking steroids - like a year or two in college - would they have long term effects, or most likely be okay? why did they decide to stop transitioning?
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Jul 3, 2014 19:13
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Mr.Nice posted:In the Puerto affair they found a powder that allow to fake EPO test, it's called "polvos de la madre Celestina" (poussières de la mère Célestine in french) : Small grains you put in your dicks before pissing, it's a protease that destroy the protein peptide bond like EPO. ah yes, let's do GHB (Xyrem) to get a good night's sleep.
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Jul 3, 2014 19:26
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Charlotte Hornets posted:ah yes, let's do GHB (Xyrem) to get a good night's sleep.
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Jul 3, 2014 19:27
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vaginal culture posted:But a lot of the effects are permanent even after stopping usage What PEDs have permanent effects? vaginal culture posted:All American pro sports should adhere to the WADA code and have blood passport and random tests utilizing a whereabouts program. Way too much money in these sports for a clean athlete to ever have a chance. Money is the root of the doping in sport issue here, people like to talk about fair play and all of that poo poo, but really they want to see records shattered, 150 mile an hour slap shots, and a bunch of 260 lb sides of beef smashing each other to a pulp. The people pulling the strings need to do the dance and pretend to care just enough to make it look like they care, but how many people would continue to tune in if there was no chance something exceptional was going to happen?
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Jul 3, 2014 21:21
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As someone who has yet to form a strong opinion on PEDs this thread has been a very interesting read. Also it is pretty baffling to me that people continue to argue that Bonds/Sosa/et al did not benefit massively from the drugs that they used. I mean...argue that it was acceptable under the rules of the sport, or that it is an OK thing to do regardless, or that it makes the sport more interesting to watch, or...whatever. Arguing that they didn't have an effect on the performance of the athlete though, that's one of the least compelling things I've ever seen the internet produce.
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Jul 3, 2014 21:43
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vaginal culture posted:There is an epidemic of recently retired Italian soccer players getting Lou Gherig's disease Can you talk about all the Barca players doping back when Guardiola was a player?
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Jul 3, 2014 21:49
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tbp posted:I realize the irony considering I earlier asked about boxing, though. Since no one really answered this I will. I think most people believe Manny is or has doped fairly often, Juan Manuel Marquez is almost certainly juiced to the gills (along with drinking his own piss), and you get guys pissing hot directly before fights now and then because they're complete and total loving idiots like Lamont Peterson a couple of years ago. It wouldn't surprise me too much if the vast majority of name guys are juicing. Of course more than any other sport you're giving up your future quality of life if you're a boxer so I don't know how much most people care unless they believe one guy's clean and another isn't. And like you or whoever noted the sport has so many completely hosed up and horrible problems and has for its entire existence that it can get lost pretty easily in the heap of poo poo that is everything boxing.
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Jul 3, 2014 22:27
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Sour Grapes posted:What PEDs have permanent effects? To simplify things, all of them basically. Anabolics have permanent effects as does oxygen vector doping.
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Jul 3, 2014 22:37
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bewbies posted:As someone who has yet to form a strong opinion on PEDs this thread has been a very interesting read. He's pretty much trolling (or at least playing extreme devil's advocate). There isn't any good way to quantify just what impact PEDs have on elite level athletes though, because nobody publishes actual results (for obvious reasons). Instead we get anecdotes and studies that test drugs out on athletes (or just regular individuals) who are far below elite level. So maybe the drugs are worth 5 homers or maybe they're worth 30. Who knows?
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Jul 3, 2014 22:47
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Jordan7hm posted:He's pretty much trolling (or at least playing extreme devil's advocate). There isn't any good way to quantify just what impact PEDs have on elite level athletes though, because nobody publishes actual results (for obvious reasons). Instead we get anecdotes and studies that test drugs out on athletes (or just regular individuals) who are far below elite level. Cycling has been pretty open with displaying the power readings for dopers compared to 'clean*' riders. After the big busts in the 90's you saw times tumble throughout the peloton to the point that its taken nearly 15 years to even get close again through 'marginal* gains'. To be honest, if you get caught pissing hot, you should be banned for life. I dont give a flying gently caress that Contador is favourite to win the Tour De France this year because hes been banned for doping, and him taking 2 years off from the sport wont change the fact the doping has permanently changed his v02 max.
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Jul 3, 2014 22:49
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Grittybeard posted:Since no one really answered this I will. I think most people believe Manny is or has doped fairly often, Juan Manuel Marquez is almost certainly juiced to the gills (along with drinking his own piss), and you get guys pissing hot directly before fights now and then because they're complete and total loving idiots like Lamont Peterson a couple of years ago. It wouldn't surprise me too much if the vast majority of name guys are juicing. Boxing is rife with doping, almost certainly. Floyd Mayweather constantly asking for random tests, aimed, mostly, at Manny Pacquiao, means he is either using something he knows is undetectable, or he's sure there are boxers out there (like Pacquiao?) using PEDs regularly, or maybe it's a little of both. Why was Pacquiao so adamant he wouldn't allow blood testing? I can't think of a genuine reason that doesn't implicate him. Vitali Klitschko took steroids (which he claims were for a leg injury), Roy Jones Jr very likely took steroids (one positive test, the two following both negative); these were fighters that were a class above those around them but still (probably) doped. If they've done it, they all are.
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Jul 3, 2014 22:50
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Anything from the late 80's to the end of the 90's needs a massive asterix next to it in my opinion. There was just no way to test for the stuff on the market at the time.
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Jul 3, 2014 22:53
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stickyfngrdboy posted:Why was Pacquiao so adamant he wouldn't allow blood testing? If I remember right he made up some bullshit about believing blood tests would hurt his training. Like the process of losing a tiny amount of blood 14 days before the fight would make him too weak or something along those lines. And since it's boxing you can almost buy that he would believe that since there are so many myths around training and all. But yeah, in reality I think almost everyone thinks the blood tests would hurt his training since he'd have to stop pumping himself full of whatever.
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Jul 3, 2014 23:01
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Grittybeard posted:If I remember right he made up some bullshit about believing blood tests would hurt his training. Like the process of losing a tiny amount of blood 14 days before the fight would make him too weak or something along those lines. And since it's boxing you can almost buy that he would believe that since there are so many myths around training and all. Yeah I remember what his excuses were. I'd love to see those two go at it, as I'm sure most boxing fans would be. Some say that Mayweather was simply making his excuses before any potential loss, but the fact that Pacquiao refused says a lot, to me.
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Jul 3, 2014 23:04
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serious gaylord posted:Anything from the late 80's to the end of the 90's needs a massive asterix next to it in my opinion. There was just no way to test for the stuff on the market at the time. Earlier than that, steroids and blood transfusions have been around since the 70's at least.
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Jul 3, 2014 23:07
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vaginal culture posted:Earlier than that, steroids and blood transfusions have been around since the 70's at least. They were massive in the body building scene, but how prevalent were they in sports culture? I was always of the opinion that they didnt really infect the pro sports world outside of the endurance and strength disciplines until the 80's.
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Jul 3, 2014 23:11
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Jordan7hm posted:He's pretty much trolling (or at least playing extreme devil's advocate). There isn't any good way to quantify just what impact PEDs have on elite level athletes though, because nobody publishes actual results (for obvious reasons). Instead we get anecdotes and studies that test drugs out on athletes (or just regular individuals) who are far below elite level. Probably true. However, the weird baseball fan logic seems to be "The effect can't be quantified precisely, therefore it must not exist", which is asinine.
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Jul 3, 2014 23:21
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serious gaylord posted:They were massive in the body building scene, but how prevalent were they in sports culture? I was always of the opinion that they didnt really infect the pro sports world outside of the endurance and strength disciplines until the 80's. Finnish distance runner Lasse Virin won gold in 72 using blood transfusions, I think he was one of the first. Steroids were kicking around back then too.
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Jul 3, 2014 23:27
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Fag Boy Jim posted:Probably true. However, the weird baseball fan logic seems to be "The effect can't be quantified precisely, therefore it must not exist", which is asinine. Honestly, from reading most of the baseball threads on the issue, I think it's more that most posters loath the MLB's hypocrisy and framing of the issue that they're willing to push any steroid talk into the typical sportswriter view of them being magic dinger juice.
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Jul 3, 2014 23:35
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vaginal culture posted:To simplify things, all of them basically. Anabolics have permanent effects as does oxygen vector doping. Care to expand or link me something? I haven't read that much, but I thought the effects of anabolics tapered after a while off-cycle due to a number of factors (i.e.; decreased capacity for training, eating, lowered aggression/focus, etc.).
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Jul 3, 2014 23:38
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serious gaylord posted:They were massive in the body building scene, but how prevalent were they in sports culture? I was always of the opinion that they didnt really infect the pro sports world outside of the endurance and strength disciplines until the 80's. The football link posted earlier suggests that they were being used in the 60's and 70's, particularly for the two most successful clubs of those periods, Ajax and Bayern Munich
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Jul 3, 2014 23:39
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