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TheMadMilkman posted:I'm considering buying this. I've heard similar hardware based systems, and I love the idea of doing EQ in software before any conversion to analog: $789, for a goddamn music player.  My Driverack PX comes with a calibrated microphone and can do room correction (as well as crossover, subharmonic synth, parametric/graphic EQ, compression, limiting and feedback elimination). It costs $600 MSRP, but can usually be found for around $375 new. I bought mine for $220 used. It does everything that stupid player does, better and for less money. Oh yeah, and it has only analog inputs/outputs, but everything internal is done digitally. The workflow goes PC->DAC->preamp->ADC->processing->DAC->class D amp, in order to really piss off the audiophiles. KozmoNaut fucked around with this message at 08:31 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 08:07
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Oh god just use J River Media Centre.
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Jul 1, 2014 08:29
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I work at a major telco/ISP, and our customers are given unlimited access to a streaming media service with a large library of music (millions of tracks) as part of their subscriptions. As far as I know, everything is stored losslessly at our streaming provider and transcoded for streaming. We've just upped the quality to 320kbit/s for in-browser streaming and 192kbit/s Dolby Pulse for mobile devices. Of course, this move caused the audiophiles to pop out of the woodwork on our intranet. The most common complaint is that we're not matching our closest competitor, who has a (premium) lossless option. But the real winner was some dude who was completely incredulous as to why we're collaborating with Sonos for dedicated streaming hardware support. In his mind, teaming up with Linn or Naim would make so much more sense, because marketshare and brand name recognition among ordinary people is completely irrelevant. What a PRaT 
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Jul 1, 2014 09:33
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Waldo P Barnstormer posted:If this guy could buy surround sound vinyl I think he would. I bought Automatic for the People for my SACD player and it didn't work. I ended up getting Medula instead which is really awesome, but it's not a good sign for the format that they couldn't even get compatibility down.
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Jul 1, 2014 09:45
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KozmoNaut posted:$789, for a goddamn music player. I have the Behringer version of that in my PA rack. It honestly amazes me how many sound systems local to me just have EQ and not RTA... First thing I do when I set up the system is run the RTA to get everything flat and then tweak from there. It's weird hearing an accurate PA system in a room, it sounds just like a massively powerful hi-fi. 
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Jul 1, 2014 11:40
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KozmoNaut posted:$789, for a goddamn music player. Eh, the software has a feature set that works for me. The fact that it averages the response curve for a full couch (I don't sit in the same place often), easily adjustable response curves, and the impulse adjustment appeals to me. And not having pro gear in the living room. I'm willing to pay more to maintain a look. The arguments I read about EQ while researching this rival the best ss/tubes or cable arguments that I've ever seen. Apparently people with 100k+ systems hate the idea of a "cheap" piece of software making things better. Of course, a lot of them are also scared stupid at the thought of using a music server. Even iTunes and a USB dac is too much for them.
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Jul 1, 2014 15:38
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It's still $789. For a piece of software to play music. If room correction matters that much in your living room, you have some fairly serious speaker/couch placement issues. Fix those first before you resort to software-based band-aids. Room correction should only be used for the finishing touch, not to fix massive dips and peaks in an imperfectly set up room. KozmoNaut fucked around with this message at 15:45 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 15:41
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Holy poo poo just go install Soundflower and EQ away for free.
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Jul 1, 2014 15:52
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TheMadMilkman posted:Eh, the software has a feature set that works for me. The fact that it averages the response curve for a full couch (I don't sit in the same place often), easily adjustable response curves, and the impulse adjustment appeals to me. And not having pro gear in the living room. I'm willing to pay more to maintain a look. You would have to be on crack to pay $800 for EQ software. If you care about looks, get this. http://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/minidsp-2x4
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Jul 1, 2014 15:54
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KillHour posted:You would have to be on crack to pay $800 for EQ software. If you care about looks, get this. The linked software is their most expensive option. Their basic software plus EQ package (which fits my needs, the symphony edition includes features I don't care about) is $438, and they offer sizable discounts beyond that. Still a lot, but not too substantial over the driverack px mentioned earlier when purchased new. I prefer to buy new. The real point is that I see value in it equal to what it would cost me, and there is a measurable advantage to the type of system. If that makes me worthy of ridicule, so be it.
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Jul 1, 2014 17:23
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The Driverack is a piece of pro audio equipment, it's kinda overpriced (and over-featured and over-specced) for ordinary home use. I'm just using it because I got a good deal on it. Use Soundflower or a MiniDSP, instead of wasting your money.
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Jul 1, 2014 17:57
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There are also other software players that will do all those things for free or a fraction of the price.
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Jul 1, 2014 20:28
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I don't think anyone is mocking you. Your solution you chose works and makes measurable results. It just seems that there are other just as capable solutions for much cheaper. It's your money though. However doing EQ at the source doesn't make sense to me. I handle EQ and everything else at the preamp/processor stage. Then again I have a few different sources. A badass setup if you want DIY would be a miniDSP supporting however many channels you have, and room correction done using a calibrated Mic and Room EQ Wizard. As far as pro audio gear being visible in the living room, I personally don't like seeing ANY gear in the living room. Quality in-wall speakers are really loving cool. As are equipment racks hidden in closets.
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Jul 1, 2014 20:41
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jonathan posted:However doing EQ at the source doesn't make sense to me. I handle EQ and everything else at the preamp/processor stage. Then again I have a few different sources. I do all my processing, including volume control, in software then send it from my audio interface directly to power amplifiers, then pull the knobs off the volume pots once I've set their gains. Worked great as a party system just playing blurays, mp3s and youtube because nobody could ever turn it up louder than I wanted and the processing settings were incredibly easy to mess with. Really sucked when someone brought over their xbox, ipod or other source because it just couldn't handle multiple sources. Looking at my system though, I really think it could be improved with the addition of this 400euro USB adaptor and a 350euro SATA cable: http://jplay.eu/jcat/ quote:Our extensive tests showed that using audio grade SATA cable is as important for sound quality in a computer audio system as using high quality USB cable with a USB DAC or USB-S/PDIF converter. And I'd have to agree with that claim. A Lone Girl Flier fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 21:02
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jonathan posted:I don't think anyone is mocking you. Your solution you chose works and makes measurable results. It just seems that there are other just as capable solutions for much cheaper. It's your money though. However doing EQ at the source doesn't make sense to me. I handle EQ and everything else at the preamp/processor stage. Then again I have a few different sources. I'm probably being overly defensive, you're right. It doesn't feel like much money to me if I like how it works, especially relative to some other purchases I've made. It's also low on my "to be purchased" list, after upgrading pretty much everything else. I do intend to buy a calibrated mic very soon. I want to see what's going on in my room. I do have bass issues, but I'm not sure how severe. As for visible gear, I only do 2 channel, and am trying to stick to things both my wife and I find to be physically attractive. Which is hard to do, since most audiophiles seem to like "manly" looking gear that doesn't really mesh in a domestic setting.
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Jul 1, 2014 21:37
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I hate to break it to you, Mr. "I want to spend $Texas on good sound, but it has to look good." You're not really going to solve bass issues with a DSP, software or otherwise. You can make it sound good in *one specific spot*, but anywhere else is actually going to sound worse. Also, if you room has a null in bass response, there's nothing a DSP can do, period. Options: Multiple subwoofers. Preferably not in the corners - having them at odd fractions (1/3, 2/5, etc.) across the room will result in the best overall response. Sound traps. Need to be placed in specific places around the room to stop the bass from reflecting off walls (and your ceiling) and interfering with itself. Look like this:  What speakers do you have? This might sound insultingly obvious, but you do have a subwoofer, right? KillHour fucked around with this message at 03:53 on Jul 2, 2014 |
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Jul 2, 2014 03:43
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KozmoNaut posted:The Driverack is a piece of pro audio equipment, it's kinda overpriced (and over-featured and over-specced) for ordinary home use. I'm just using it because I got a good deal on it. The PA range also sounds like poo poo has very few features and the RTA is a joke. You shouldn't be using it to EQ 'flat' as that's not how we hear and it will become stupidly fatiguing over time. If you want a live sound sort of experience then you want a rising 3db per octave slope from about 1KHz down and more importantly to have everything phase aligned. Which takes half an hour with a trial version of SMAART or similar if you know what you're doing. You can even use a Behringer $40 mic.
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Jul 2, 2014 18:09
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Neurophonic posted:The PA range also sounds like poo poo has very few features and the RTA is a joke. You shouldn't be using it to EQ 'flat' as that's not how we hear and it will become stupidly fatiguing over time. If you want a live sound sort of experience then you want a rising 3db per octave slope from about 1KHz down and more importantly to have everything phase aligned. "Sounds like poo poo", please explain. I have no sound quality issues at all with my PX. I'm not using the RTA, in fact the only thing I'm using for is the crossover, which is why it's a bit overkill. I'm not looking for the "live sound", every EQ in my signal chain is either flat or completely disabled and the tone controls on my preamp are bypassed. No messing around, everything sounds like itself with nothing added. I use studio monitors as my main speakers, I want a neutral, flat response. For a live venue, the automatic room correction should only be used a starting point anyway, before you dial in your "house sound". If you know your room and speakers, you can obviously skip the automatic step, but it's a good way to get a starting point in an unknown venue.
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Jul 2, 2014 18:43
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KillHour posted:I hate to break it to you, Mr. "I want to spend $Texas on good sound, but it has to look good." I'm well aware of room acoustic treatments and the use of multiple subs. But there are also arguments for using room correction for bass response even after treatment. As for speakers, I'm running Zu Audio Soul Superflys (before the price police pop up, I won them in a drawing). I don't have a sub. Didn't need it in my old place, and I'm not yet convinced I need one in the new one. I bought a house in December and the living room has some issues. Our furniture is too big for the space and needs to be replaced. My wife tends small kids during the day, so my speakers are pushed further back then I'd like. The tv isn't wall mounted yet, and won't be until we get a larger one. I need an actual audio rack instead of the repurposed coffee table in using right now. My integrated amp is not a good match to my speakers, which seems to be resulting in thin bass. Once all of those issues are solved I will worry about room treatments (gik acoustics art panels have caught my eye). And EQ if necessary.
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Jul 2, 2014 19:14
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What amp are you using? Those speakers basically have 10" subwoofers built in, so you shouldn't need subs unless you want to go <20hz. I still don't think that software will give you anything a MiniDSP can't for 1/4 the price. And you're right, DSP is used AFTER room treatments. I didn't say it did nothing, I said it can't fix your room issues. It's that last little bit you add after you've done everything else to try to compensate for any remaining imperfections in the setup (phase alignment, channel delay, correcting for harmonics, etc.). KillHour fucked around with this message at 20:49 on Jul 2, 2014 |
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Jul 2, 2014 20:45
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KillHour posted:What amp are you using? NAD C320BEE. It was an excellent amp with the vandersteen 1cs I had before. I can't be 100% sure yet, but I think the mismatch is due to the amp's relatively high damping factor. The bass notes are there but seem to lack fullness, and Zu recommends using amps with low damping for my speakers. I borrowed a 2 watt tube amp from Zu (I live near them) and got improved bass, but an obvious loss in dynamics. This bass response was a problem in the old house as well, but the new room makes it worse. I met a guy at an audio meet who has a spare Bob Latino st-70 that I'm going to borrow. If that improves things, I'll be buying a kit and building my own in a custom wood case.
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Jul 2, 2014 21:15
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The recommendation for low damping factor is very odd. Especially with large speaker cones, you want a high damping factor in order to control the cone movement better. Too low a damping factor will result in flappy and uncontrolled bass response. This can sound as if the bass is "fuller", but it's actually bordering on being out of control. With a low damping factor, the amp simply can't stop the self-movement of the speaker cones, leading them to overshoot.
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Jul 2, 2014 21:22
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To expand on what KozmoNaut was saying, your problem isn't high damping factor - a high damping factor is good. I think a bigger problem is that those are 16 ohm speakers, so they're going to be hard to drive and you'll get half the rated power out of it (25W per channel instead of 50). They do claim to be very efficient, though (100 dB-SPL 1W, 1m), so it may balance out. KillHour fucked around with this message at 21:45 on Jul 2, 2014 |
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Jul 2, 2014 21:31
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KozmoNaut posted:The recommendation for low damping factor is very odd. Especially with large speaker cones, you want a high damping factor in order to control the cone movement better. Too low a damping factor will result in flappy and uncontrolled bass response. This can sound as if the bass is "fuller", but it's actually bordering on being out of control. With a low damping factor, the amp simply can't stop the self-movement of the speaker cones, leading them to overshoot. I'd have to talk to the designer again to get the specifics for why the recommendation was made. It's been too long for me to remember precisely what he said. And ya, it may just be that my speakers present a load outside of the range that the NAD was intended to drive. Ultimately I just want it to sound better, and I like the idea of building my own amp.
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Jul 2, 2014 21:44
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Zu Audio is exactly the kind of company we've been making fun of.quote:complete with ZuB3 silver alloy internal cabling... Don't listen to any advice from these monkeys.
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Jul 2, 2014 21:45
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Nanotech sanctified, baby (What is that even supposed to mean? TheMadMilkman posted:I'd have to talk to the designer again to get the specifics for why the recommendation was made. It's been too long for me to remember precisely what he said. IIRC the C320BEE should be able to handle a set of 16 ohm speakers just fine. It's a beefy little bugger.
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Jul 2, 2014 21:57
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Sanctified? Did they get a really, really small priest to bless all of the cabling?
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Jul 2, 2014 22:02
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grack posted:Sanctified? Did they get a really, really small priest to bless all of the cabling? Unfortunately not  http://www.zuaudio.com/questions-list/2014/2/4/what-is-nano
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Jul 2, 2014 22:04
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KozmoNaut posted:Nanotech sanctified, baby That they coat the paper cones using a light weight stiffening compound that was developed by DuPont while studying nano technology. I do wish they would cut the audiophile buzzword bingo and get out of the cable business. I've seen their cable looms and know exactly what goes into it. But I can't fault them. It brings in a lot of money for not much effort.
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Jul 2, 2014 22:06
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TheMadMilkman posted:That they coat the paper cones using a light weight stiffening compound that was developed by DuPont while studying nano technology. Yeah, I think it's quite a stretch to call the speaker cones "nanotech sanctified" because of a lacquer applied to them. That's really nothing new, people have been applying various coatings to speaker cones for years. I remember reading about some dude who made sake-soaked bamboo speaker cones some years back, so there really is no end to the creativity.
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Jul 2, 2014 22:21
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I remember reading about those. I forget the rationale for using sake, but it was entertaining.
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Jul 2, 2014 22:28
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KozmoNaut posted:IIRC the C320BEE should be able to handle a set of 16 ohm speakers just fine. It's a beefy little bugger. I honestly don't think a new amp is going to help much, if at all. If an amp can power the speakers at required levels without clipping, it's not going to affect bass response. Unless the amp is coloring the sound (like a tube amp). If your speakers are sounding anemic on the low end, it usually either means you have poor room acoustics or you need a dedicated sub. I honestly think a 12" subwoofer is going to be more effective and cheaper than anything else you can come up with.
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Jul 2, 2014 23:33
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KillHour posted:I honestly don't think a new amp is going to help much, if at all. If an amp can power the speakers at required levels without clipping, it's not going to affect bass response. That might be the case. Fortunately, I can borrow the amp I'm interested in and keep it long enough to evaluate it properly, by which I mean long enough to get past the "this is new and possibly slightly different, it must be better!" stage that seems to drive many audiophile purchases.
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Jul 2, 2014 23:56
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TheMadMilkman posted:That might be the case. Fortunately, I can borrow the amp I'm interested in and keep it long enough to evaluate it properly, by which I mean long enough to get past the "this is new and possibly slightly different, it must be better!" stage that seems to drive many audiophile purchases. Just remember that tube amps are going to color the sound. And those amps are ungodly expensive for what they are - $40 or less in parts plus some overpriced tubes. Edit: If you're going to spend insane amounts of money on a tube amp, at least go all the way. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlrdvF3CQSs The tubes light up green. How can you not love that? KillHour fucked around with this message at 01:00 on Jul 3, 2014 |
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Jul 3, 2014 00:15
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So I was sitting listening to music in my office when I got the itch to fiddle again. I was thinking about how flabby the bass was with my PSW10, and on a lark I tried stuffing a t-shirt in the port. And... it worked! Mostly. I had to turn the volume on the sub up from 1/4 to 1/2, but there's definitely an improvement in the smallish room. I probably lost everything below ~35hz and it's still a little boomy, but it's a good tradeoff until I can afford to upgrade. Edit: I also got a few foam blocks and put them under the sub. That helped reduce some of the rattle. I can still hear my door rattle when I crank it, though. Double Edit: While looking around for different kinds of music to test out my changes, I found this guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuZLtMrCOoU He is amazing, and I want to pay him to come play bass while I fall asleep. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYgflEpPDWQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuZLtMrCOoU KillHour fucked around with this message at 02:13 on Jul 3, 2014 |
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Jul 3, 2014 01:54
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If you're looking for something to specifically test a sub, track 8 (IIRC) off of the original Quake soundtrack is absolutely bonkers. It'll tear apart any sub. E: It may be track 9 on the CD because of the data track. KozmoNaut fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Jul 3, 2014 |
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Jul 3, 2014 08:05
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KozmoNaut posted:If you're looking for something to specifically test a sub, track 8 (IIRC) off of the original Quake soundtrack is absolutely bonkers. It'll tear apart any sub. I'll have to dig mine up
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Jul 3, 2014 20:18
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Have you seen my apex seals? I seem to have lost them.
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Maybe track 7? Seems like that track only deals with high frequency or under 20hz with nothing in between. I don't have my tactile inducers hooked up right now and my seats were loving shaking. Awesome poo poo.
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Jul 4, 2014 03:26
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It's 8, "Necropolis". Lots between 20 and 40hz. But mostly, I'm just a big fan of slap bass. Any other good artists I should look into?
KillHour fucked around with this message at 03:47 on Jul 4, 2014 |
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Jul 4, 2014 03:39
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KillHour posted:It's 8, "Necropolis". Lots between 20 and 40hz. But mostly, I'm just a big fan of slap bass. Any other good artists I should look into? And then some… 
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Jul 4, 2014 03:46
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