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They sent him back so he could help kill the justice league
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Jul 4, 2014 05:24
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jsoh posted:They sent him back so he could help kill the justice league Very unlikely. There's a future so we pretty much know they won the fight without Tony, actually we pretty much know that 616 Earth survives all the incursions. We also know how they did it apparently wasn't worth the cost.
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Jul 4, 2014 05:50
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goldenoreos posted:Oh god Hickman is going to kill Franklin with the eye bomb isn't he? I'm pretty sure nothing could kill Franklin.
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Jul 4, 2014 06:04
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SirDan3k posted:Very unlikely. There's a future so we pretty much know they won the fight without Tony, actually we pretty much know that 616 Earth survives all the incursions. We also know how they did it apparently wasn't worth the cost. No, they specifically say that Tony's little incursion detector/warp machine that he stuck in all the Illuminati in NA would free him from the Time Gem mess that everyone's currently in and sent him on his way (after Future Hawkeye socked him in the face). So in all the futures, no matter what, Tony got owned by
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Jul 4, 2014 06:27
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Sithsaber posted:I didn't say cancel, I just assumed FF and it's legacy characters would remain unemphasized. Let's not also forget that Franklin is a legacy character, and clegacy characters tend to fall by the wayside once they've served their purpose in story. Please stop peddling this Bleeding Cool-originating garbage.
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Jul 4, 2014 09:18
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Hollismason posted:Wait is that actually how the Hulk has Astral Vision? Also I always loved the ability to know exactly where the bomb site was, always thought that was a neat power. It was a fan theory built on a lot of stuff said in comics, that had been going around message boards since the early 90's but I think it was made cannon by Greg Pak during his run, but I can't remember the exact issue. It goes like this, Gamma Bombs when they work properly they are supposed to destroy machines while leaving organic material intact. (That was Bruce's original intention for them, sort of like an Anti-Neutron Bomb. You fire it at an enemy's missle silo/C&C centre and it leaves behind naked soldiers who are confused, but alive.) [This was an attempt by writers to make Bruce's bomb work seem less ghastly and monsterious.] Then most writers ignored this and said that Gamma Bombs are just Nukes turned up to 11, with a chance of creating super powered monsters when used. Some writers have had characters theorize (and I think Warren Ellis sort of ran with this idea during his attempt at a Hulk analogue in the Planetary 0 or 1/2 issue.) that the Gamma Bomb for some taps into one of the primal energies involved in the Big Bang and is a limited form of reality alteration. Some who are exposed to Gamma don't become monsters per say, but rather a reflection of their inner desires, albiet in warped ways. So meek Jenifer Walters becomes the outgoing, super confident Woman she always dreamed of being. Thunderbolt Ross becomes the 900LB ape with a machine gun/ one man army he always wished he was. Fragile Rick Jones becomes an unkillable hanger-on who can hang around with his pal the Hulk and not worry about getting his back broken, again. Doc Samson becomes the virile, long haired, wang-endowed physical speciman he wanted to be. The developly challenged Samuel Sterns gets the Intellect he always yearned for growing up. And so on. But with Bruce Banner, well the guy is a grab bag of neurosis and trauma, so it explains why there is so many Hulks. The classic child like simpleton Hulk is a manifestation of Bruce Banner's childhood trauma. He was beaten up by people stronger than him, so he creates an anger prone monster with massive strength who acts out and smashes the "bad people". (IE People who hurt him.) But ultimately won't harm good people (IE Bruce's mother, who he loved.) [This also acts as a partial explanation for why the Hulk is so strong. He has infinite strength because a child cannot visualise limits for something like this. He is simply stronger than whatever monster he is dealing with, because he has to be to deal with it.) The ability to always find the Gamma Test site, is a manifestation of young Bruce's desire to have a home. For the Hulk, the Gamma Test site is his home. But why can he see Ghosts? Well the one thing young Bruce feared above all others was his father. And while he was dead, like a child is want to do, he feared that his dad would come back. Ergo the Hulk needed to have the ability to see and interact with Ghosts...just incase the ghost of his dad came after him. (He did, incidentally, in Pak's run.) And similar things can be said about different incarnations of the Hulk. The Grey Hulk/Joe Fixit is mouthy, surely but attempts to form crude relationships using his machismo to hide a vulnerable side. He's a manifestation of Bruce's Teenage years. The Professor Hulk* is the adult Bruce Banner's desire to have it all and be accepted as a super hero. Presumably the Maestro and the Devil Hulk are other examples, characters who are created by trauma's suffered by Bruce. *= This was a point of contention with Paul Jenkins and Peter David. David wanted the smart talking Hulk to just be Bruce Banner having merged the Green and Grey Hulk's and had everything working out. Jenkins came up with the idea that the Professor Hulk was another personality who was different to the real Bruce Banner. Which sort of makes sense if you operate on the meta textual level of "this character acted completely differently before Peter David took over, and he just sort of acts like a stock Peter David character. Let's have an explanation for this new personality."
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Jul 4, 2014 10:58
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TwoPair posted:No, they specifically say that Tony's little incursion detector/warp machine that he stuck in all the Illuminati in NA would free him from the Time Gem mess that everyone's currently in and sent him on his way (after Future Hawkeye socked him in the face). So in all the futures, no matter what, Tony got owned by Are you sure? I'm reading Avengers #30 now and old Hawkeye says "When this happened the first time....after it all turned to dust, after it all fell apart, we promised I promised to get Stark Home earlier. Because he was too late to stop it from happening. And this is me keeping my word. Look at me Stark, you can stop it from happening! You can go back now and you can stop it!" I read this as in his time line, Tony stayed with the Avengers as they got bounced around time and wasn't present for the fight with the Great Society, but that he could have had a major impact. As for Franklin I hope he looks at the Ultron bomb in Steve's eye and says "Oh those primitive dumb dumbs in the 25th century. They thought they could change things with this? (Turns it into a tear drop.) There, problem solved."
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Jul 4, 2014 11:05
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The Question IRL posted:Are you sure? Oh yeah I guess so. I didn't have the issue in front of me, I just distinctly remember Tony getting sent back early (ergo in time for the JL fight).
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Jul 4, 2014 14:51
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The Question IRL posted:
I'm not so sure, it might not have been PAD's intention to go with Jenkins' 'thousands of Hulks' plan, but he definitely had moments in his run where the Professor was on the cusp of losing control, and then around #425 he reverted to the Savage persona, but in Banner's body. It was kind of leading to a 'maybe this patchwork psychological merging isn't so successful after all' story, at least until it got derailed by Onslaught and splitting Banner and Hulk. Vindicator fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Jul 5, 2014 |
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Jul 5, 2014 19:28
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The Question IRL posted:HULK HULK HULK IS there a run that really goes into this stuff? I'd be interested in reading it. EDIT: Also the JL fight isn't over so there is still a possibility Tony plays an important role.
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Jul 6, 2014 16:14
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Senor Candle posted:IS there a run that really goes into this stuff? I'd be interested in reading it. Not exactly, it's pieced together from a number of sources however... The stuff about Bruce's background and his fear of his father is a story a lot of writers dealt with. Pakk's run post World War Hulk dealt with some of these themes, particularly the tie in to the Chaos War. The run on Red Hulk after Loeb also looked a bit at the notion of Gamma Energy making someone into what they are really like, but I think PAD also ran with that thread. As for Hulk's MPD, that was Paul Jenkins stuff, you can find that when he started his run on the character after John Byrne's (90) run finishes, so I think from issue 24 onwards. It opens with a really good John Romita Jr two parter where Hulk destroys the Abomination for killing Betty.
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Jul 6, 2014 16:41
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The Question IRL posted:Some writers have had characters theorize (and I think Warren Ellis sort of ran with this idea during his attempt at a Hulk analogue in the Planetary 0 or 1/2 issue.) that the Gamma Bomb for some taps into one of the primal energies involved in the Big Bang and is a limited form of reality alteration. Some who are exposed to Gamma don't become monsters per say, but rather a reflection of their inner desires, albiet in warped ways. I wouldn't call that a Gamma thing so much as an homage. Planetary is basically one big love letter to fiction anyway. Edit- now that I think about it, Planetary was definitely some guy using super advanced computers that could calculate local reality into shape changing, no radiation required. Ellis DID however write Ultimate Human, where Ultimate Hulk faced Ultimate Iron Man and Ultimate Leader. Ultimate Hulk just super adapts to survive basically anything. I love the rest of the thoughts! One other thought I had reading that issue, I like that they found the most effective way to beat the Hulk. You have to hit him so hard he doesn't have time to get any angrier. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 05:07 on Jul 7, 2014 |
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Jul 7, 2014 05:05
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Nevvy Z posted:One other thought I had reading that issue, I like that they found the most effective way to beat the Hulk. You have to hit him so hard he doesn't have time to get any angrier. That was my interpretation as well. Since the Hulk has to grow stronger, he needs to be able to take that first blow and keep going. Sun God blasted him so hard he just went down right away. Compare to when Starbrand blasted him into space, he had quite a few moments floating in low orbit to get pretty pissed off, enabling him to come crashing back down from a Captain Marvel throw. Here he was hitting Sun God, and then Sun God was like ok I see how strong you are, now I'll punch you hard enough that you won't be able to recover.
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Jul 7, 2014 09:36
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Today's Avengers was exactly what I wanted. And man did I love the hell out of that last Franklin moment.
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Jul 9, 2014 14:32
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I have an question about the old Avengers: Why didn't the West Coast Avengers last? It sounded like a good idea.
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Jul 9, 2014 16:42
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Schneider Heim posted:I have an question about the old Avengers: Why didn't the West Coast Avengers last? It sounded like a good idea.
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Jul 9, 2014 16:51
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:Today's Avengers was exactly what I wanted. And man did I love the hell out of that last Franklin moment. Not only does he have a pet Galactus he has a friend in Groot.
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Jul 9, 2014 17:05
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So what was it then that Star Brand was going to...oh god.
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Jul 9, 2014 19:44
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This was a good issue of Avengers however I also think this entire arc is losing me. To put it simply: IDGI
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Jul 9, 2014 22:58
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:Today's Avengers was exactly what I wanted. And man did I love the hell out of that last Franklin moment. I dunno. My big problem with this issue was how for an all powerful Godlike being who is loaded up with future knowledge...nothing got done. Like Cap doesn't even ask Franklin to disarm the bomb that got put in his head (which I would have loved. The all powerful Ultron based future put a bomb in Cap's head as part of a byzantine plot. And it gets waved away by a reality alterer.) Also Franklin's speech doesn't make sense. Franklin Richards: You can't fight the Incursions Cap. All of time is set, there is no such thing as free will, everything will happen reguardless of what you chose to do. Cap: Really? Seriously? I piledrive Kang the Conqueror and Immortus on a regular basis. I do the imposible every other Sunday, just tell me whose responsible for the Incursions, and I'll beat them until their blood hurts.
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Jul 9, 2014 23:46
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With whole empires casually hanging around in space, it's a little weird humanity is only in control of their solar system.
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Jul 9, 2014 23:50
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WickedHate posted:With whole empires casually hanging around in space, it's a little weird humanity is only in control of their solar system. Sure, that's half the plot of Avengers Forever.
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Jul 9, 2014 23:55
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I just think it's so...emblematic...of Hickman's whole Avengers arc for Franklin to say to Cap, "Hey, so, would you like me to explain the exact intricate details of the problem you've been facing and why it's been occurring, along with the ultimate architects behind all of it?" and Cap just goes "No I don't care, waste everyone's time talking at me about that bastard Stark." And then when Cap finally does want to hear some details about the whole death of the multiverse problem, of course Franklin has to declare that they're out of time and he can't explain any more. Obviously. I'm not even annoyed by it so much any more, I just think that a moment like that just so perfectly encapsulates the core essence of this book, and I'm not even sure Hickman realizes it.
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Jul 9, 2014 23:55
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The Question IRL posted:I dunno. I saw it more like this is one of those things where Steve can't punch his way out of it. Showing him how far the Avengers have gone into the future he just simply ignores it. Franklin telling him Tony fail and an early end happens BECAUSE STEVE STOPS THEM. And nothing not a frown nothing, just doesn't register in his brain that there isn't someone to punch in the face. And even saying flat out that whatever Future Clint said, to not do it. Doesn't matter because he's gonna do it anyway. Steve still trying to fight against the tide is all predestined or is meant to happen.
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Jul 9, 2014 23:55
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Jiro posted:I saw it more like this is one of those things where Steve can't punch his way out of it. Showing him how far the Avengers have gone into the future he just simply ignores it. Franklin telling him Tony fail and an early end happens BECAUSE STEVE STOPS THEM. And nothing not a frown nothing, just doesn't register in his brain that there isn't someone to punch in the face. And even saying flat out that whatever Future Clint said, to not do it. Doesn't matter because he's gonna do it anyway. Steve still trying to fight against the tide is all predestined or is meant to happen. This is how I took it - that Steve's actions are 'locked in' not because you can't fight fate or whatever, but because of who he is. Telling Captain America that this is not a problem you can solve through Punching And Being Right And Just And Good And Moral While Also Still Punching is kind of like telling James T. Kirk that there is a problem that can't be solved by banging the alien chick. It doesn't matter if you're right; it simply will not compute for them, so why waste your breath?
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Jul 9, 2014 23:58
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NorgLyle posted:It had a nine year run which is pretty great for a spin-off title (And then had a semi-continuation with the dreadful Force Works series). I see, I just wondered why they didn't split teams forever.
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Jul 10, 2014 02:01
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Did I miss something? Is the Earth gone in the Avengers issue? Just the fact that Cap is talking to future Franklin and the Avengers Machine is still going suggests things will go as they will and work out because the Universe exists.
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Jul 10, 2014 03:30
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This has probably been one of my favorite Avengers titles yet, though that's probably because it reminded me a lot of the Culture series of novels by Ian M. Banks, with what was for all intents and purposes a god explaining to Natasha (who I guess knows a thing or two about dendrology?) and dumb ol' Cap (who is really burning my rear end with how stubborn he's being, also forgetting the eye bomb--with the showing of the rogue planet fulfilling a closed-action loop, though, that may be intentional) how awesome the future is and the nature of the multiverse. It's interesting that the archetype Captain American remains powerful and relevant thousands of years into the future even after the idea of America or even nation-states ceased to exist. Avengers World (the artificial planet, not the title) struck me as a bit small to be monitoring all of time and space, but then again 616 is the center of the multiverse, and it does mention that even the Shi'ar Imperial Guard and the Inhumans are intimately invested in it.
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Jul 10, 2014 03:39
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One thing I kind of don't get is why nobody asks Franklin "Oh hey, what happened to all the Ultrons?" I mean, Natasha asks about her robot, but you'd think somebody would at least throw out a quick question about "How is Earth free when it used to be enslaved?" It wouldn't take much, just have Future Franklin throw out "Oh, Thor just got super-pissed and Mjolnir decided he was worthy and holy poo poo there was lightning everywhere now let's talk about these incursions..."
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Jul 10, 2014 07:06
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You have what seems to be a handful of minutes to talk to someone 5000 years in the future, are you gonna spend a lot of time worrying about what happened 500 years in your future?
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Jul 10, 2014 10:02
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Especially about something that has a solution, I don't know, actually staring you in the face? Also I can't decide if I loved or hated this issue. It was both really dumb and really amazing.
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Jul 10, 2014 10:17
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I guess all the time travel stuff would look predestined to somebody who is functionally omniscient. All the Kangs and Imortusi results came out like they were always going to, minus a pocket alternate timeline or twelve that wouldn't be worth mentioning.
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Jul 10, 2014 10:26
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First Bass posted:This has probably been one of my favorite Avengers titles yet, though that's probably because it reminded me a lot of the Culture series of novels by Ian M. Banks Glad I'm not the only one who thought this, there were definitely nods towards the Culture in this issue. Wow, I'd love to see a Culture style Marvel universe! I guess next issue were getting a 2001: A Space Odyssey style issue where Cap unplugs the evil Ultron style AI at the core of Avengers World, then takes a bunch of acid and meets himself. Who he punches.
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Jul 10, 2014 10:45
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Gatts posted:Did I miss something? Is the Earth gone in the Avengers issue? Just the fact that Cap is talking to future Franklin and the Avengers Machine is still going suggests things will go as they will and work out because the Universe exists.
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Jul 10, 2014 14:19
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SirDan3k posted:I guess all the time travel stuff would look predestined to somebody who is functionally omniscient. All the Kangs and Imortusi results came out like they were always going to, minus a pocket alternate timeline or twelve that wouldn't be worth mentioning. On Hickman's creator owned stuff he does a lot about time travel. One of the themes is that time isn't a straight line with paths jutting off it. I wonder if those themes are gonna play into this.
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Jul 10, 2014 14:32
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The Question IRL posted:Franklin Richards: You can't fight the Incursions Cap. All of time is set, there is no such thing as free will, everything will happen reguardless of what you chose to do. That's not what he said. Everything is going to happen and he can't change it because he's Captain America, and because of quote:Cap: Really? Seriously? I piledrive Kang the Conqueror and Immortus on a regular basis. I do the imposible every other Sunday, just tell me whose responsible for the Incursions, and I'll beat them until their blood hurts. *THAT* he's going to do his thing, and everything is going to play out how it plays out. He's basically saying "You should stop trying to be Captain America about all this but, well, you are Captain America. Here we are I guess.". Amusingly we know that Captain America isn't going to be Captain America in a bit, so who knows....maybe Cap actually did hear him.
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Jul 10, 2014 14:47
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Boogaleeboo posted:That's not what he said. Everything is going to happen and he can't change it because he's Captain America, and because of
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Jul 10, 2014 15:05
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Boogaleeboo posted:That's not what he said. Everything is going to happen and he can't change it because he's Captain America, and because of It's possible that is what was meant, but I took it that with Franklin talking so much about the Forces arrayed against them and the people responsible for the incursions, those encouraging it and the Illuminati, that he was literally saying that Cap wasn't capable of beating the people responsible. Which I view as Horseshit, as Cap regularly does the impossible. I mean Infinity was all about the Avenger's defeating a universally uplifted race of godlike beings. Granted this could have just been me misunderstanding what Hickman was trying to have Franklin say, but even still I think there are more straight forward ways of making the same point. And even on that point, Cap isn't the knuckle dragging caveman that the story presents him as. He's willing to look at alternative ways of resolving disputes in manners that don't involve suplexing guys. If Franklin's argument is that Captain America will fail to resolve the Incursion stuff because he'll punch people first and foremost, he should just try rephrasing what he's saying and Steve will listen. Unless this is supposed to be some Reverse Psychology thing where the only way to make Cap listen to reason is to imply that it's impossible for him to change this and that is what gets Steve to think outside of his normal operating procedure. But either way, it still annoys me that Cap didn't even ASK about the bomb that had been put under his eye. It can't be a good, or healthy thing.
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Jul 10, 2014 15:33
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The Question IRL posted:It's possible that is what was meant, but I took it that with Franklin talking so much about the Forces arrayed against them and the people responsible for the incursions, those encouraging it and the Illuminati, that he was literally saying that Cap wasn't capable of beating the people responsible. Which I view as Horseshit, as Cap regularly does the impossible. I mean Infinity was all about the Avenger's defeating a universally uplifted race of godlike beings. I think that right now Cap is so pissed at Tony, Reed and Co that all he can think about is getting even. Normally Cap would be able to figure out another way but right now he is so pissed that that he can only think of stopping them.
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Jul 10, 2014 15:39
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So we're assuming Cap remembers the eye bomb? It seems like the kind of thing you do to a guy and then make him forget.
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Jul 10, 2014 15:48
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