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ErichZahn posted:My dad dropped crates in Central America, landed, loaded, took off, and dropped other cargo on American soil. He still doesn't give a poo poo about what was in either set of crates. He thinks it was fun! It sounds pretty cool to me.
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Jul 5, 2014 15:27
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Thank you for whitepeoplemourningromney, Mr. President 
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Jul 5, 2014 15:36
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Discendo Vox posted:He died in an attempt to seize a federal armory, which included taking civilian hostages. This was stage one of a plan that basically involved destroying the economies, governments and all public institutions of most of the slaveholding states, starting with Virginia. He was charged with and convicted of treason against that state. Sympathizing with his cause is fine, but he was pretty indisputably a) nuts and b) committing treason. Dude turned his family into a sort of abolitionist cult. Okay I'll go with treason against a state. I didn't really know that was a thing.
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Jul 5, 2014 15:56
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computer parts posted:Deng Xiaoping completely subverted Mao's system of government and he's applauded for it. Good on him, Mao was a twit when it came to actually governing.
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Jul 5, 2014 16:17
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There's nothing wrong with treason, anyway.
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Jul 5, 2014 16:20
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Discendo Vox posted:Sympathizing with his cause is fine, but he was pretty indisputably a) nuts and b) committing treason. Dude turned his family into a sort of abolitionist cult. It's pretty impressive how even liberal people completely buy into the Lost Cause slander of John Brown. It is far from 'indisputable' that he was insane. People who met with him prior to his execution sure didn't think he was crazy (aside from people trying to use supposed insanity to keep him out of the noose). In his time John Brown was a martyr and even a hero to people who opposed slavery, but to the modern American he was a crazy cultist terrorist. It's a testament to how effective revisionist history can be. I don't know if it's just a matter of how lovely our education system is, but doesn't it at least seem curious to people who read about what a CRAZY TERRORIST John Brown was or how Reconstruction didn't work because of reasons?
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Jul 5, 2014 16:21
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Jerry Manderbilt posted:Thank you for whitepeoplemourningromney, Mr. President Pathetic though they may be, I needed a laugh and WPMR provided it. It took Illinois HFS over four months to process the application, but I finally have healthcare despite having pre-existing conditions and no money. Thanks, Obama.
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Jul 5, 2014 16:23
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Stultus Maximus posted:Okay I'll go with treason against a state. I didn't really know that was a thing. Attempting to take over a federal armory by force is pretty clear treason against the nation at large, to be honest.
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Jul 5, 2014 16:23
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Nintendo Kid posted:Attempting to take over a federal armory by force is pretty clear treason against the nation at large, to be honest. I don't think he was attempting to overthrow the government of the United States.
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Jul 5, 2014 16:35
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Amergin posted:1) Happy Independence Day y'all. When I was out of work for half a year back in 2009, the Federal Unemployment Benefits extension that Obama pushed through Congress saved my rear end.
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Jul 5, 2014 16:37
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Stultus Maximus posted:I don't think he was attempting to overthrow the government of the United States. It could pretty easily head in that direction though.
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Jul 5, 2014 16:39
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Maarek posted:I don't know if it's just a matter of how lovely our education system is, but doesn't it at least seem curious to people who read about what a CRAZY TERRORIST John Brown was or how Reconstruction didn't work because of reasons? You first beging learning that John Brown was a crazy terrorist and that Reconstruction just didn't work before you really begin questioning what your teachers tell you. Then by the time you are at a point where you might question what is presented to you two things happen. First, the curriculum moves forward with great haste, as it has with all of US history, which masks lovely arguments in the over all lovely haste of the lessons. Second, by that point you probably don't really care what some assholes did 150 years ago, because you're still too young and ignorant to realized that said assholes are still influencing the world today. Also John Browns actions don't really but too much pressure on you to rethink his crazy terrorist labeling due to actually doing terrorist acts and the tendency to look at historic actions in the overall narrative instead of the frame of reference of the historic actors. Ergo you'd be crazy to try and start an armed rebellion against slavery, nobody would have possibly supported that until after the South seceded.
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Jul 5, 2014 16:40
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At the time of the raid the United States government protected the institution of slavery and enforced incredibly cruel laws designed to keep it going. I think it's missing the point to argue about whether or not he committed treason since the more important question is if that treason was justified. Most people probably think it was, which is why it was so important to brand him as an insane person during the heyday of the Lost Cause.Gyges posted:Also John Browns actions don't really but too much pressure on you to rethink his crazy terrorist labeling due to actually doing terrorist acts and the tendency to look at historic actions in the overall narrative instead of the frame of reference of the historic actors. Ergo you'd be crazy to try and start an armed rebellion against slavery, nobody would have possibly supported that until after the South seceded. Simply using violence to defend and advance abolitionism is enough to be reviled by history. We all know violence doesn't solve anything! Maarek fucked around with this message at 16:47 on Jul 5, 2014 |
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Jul 5, 2014 16:44
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Stultus Maximus posted:I don't think he was attempting to overthrow the government of the United States. He was aiming to seize a lot more than just the Harpers Ferry armory as part of his campaign, so yeah that's a treason right there. He wanted to overthrow the governments of every state and area with legal slavery at the time and that was a straight up majority of the states, so I don't know how you could say it wouldn't be treason to overthrow DC itself as well as Maryland and Virginia around it.
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Jul 5, 2014 16:46
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Maarek posted:At the time of the raid the United States government protected the institution of slavery and enforced incredibly cruel laws designed to keep it going. I think it's missing the point to argue about whether or not he committed treason since the more important question is if that treason was justified. Most people probably think it was, which is why it was so important to brand him as an insane person during the heyday of the Lost Cause. He can be both, and really radicals of any stripe are typically crazy from the perspective of an average person. Also Brown wanted more than just abolition which we know would be opposed by poor whites in the North as well.
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Jul 5, 2014 16:47
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Gyges posted:Thanks to Obama I realized that the Florida Democratic party is less than a joke and doesn't even deserve to be pissed on should it catch fire. Nothing like showing up young and excited to volunteer only to be repeatedly called a Republican plant and given the cold shoulder by all the old white Democrats. The only person in the state in the Democratic Party who knows what the hell they are doing is Bill Nelson and when he finally retires the state is going to be hosed.
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Jul 5, 2014 17:09
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John Brown was a god damned Hero of the United States and of Humanity itself, and should probably be on a unit of our currency. I encourage anybody interested in ol' John Brown but who doesn't want to read dry historical texts to instead read Flashman And The Angel Of The Lord which is a pretty sick historical-fiction account of John Brown's raid on Harper's Ferry. Also visit Harper's Ferry yourself if you ever have the chance! It's about an hour and a half outside of D.C., has a good little museum and preserved historical sites, and it's very moving to stand in spots where the Civil War arguably began.
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Jul 5, 2014 17:38
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Nintendo Kid posted:He was aiming to seize a lot more than just the Harpers Ferry armory as part of his campaign, so yeah that's a treason right there. He wanted to overthrow the governments of every state and area with legal slavery at the time and that was a straight up majority of the states, so I don't know how you could say it wouldn't be treason to overthrow DC itself as well as Maryland and Virginia around it. Just to make it really clear that this 'argument' is between people holding a webster's dictionary open to the treason page and people that don't give a drat about that, are the plotters of July 20th, 1944 traitors fishmech?
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Jul 5, 2014 17:45
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Raskolnikov38 posted:Just to make it really clear that this 'argument' is between people holding a webster's dictionary open to the treason page and people that don't give a drat about that, are the plotters of July 20th, 1944 traitors fishmech? Yes they were traitors to the Reich. You know that you can be traitor to a bad cause and thereby be good, right? (Although a lot of those plotters in 1944 had been more than happy to go along with Nazi repression and terror for as much as a decade, so the fact they were essentially trying to get themselves only a lesser beating in the aftermath of war rather than the full on occupation of Germany that eventually happened isn't that impressive as far as morality goes). John Brown unambiguously wanted to bring down the current governments in the nation's capital and most of the states and territories because of their slavery support. That it was moral and probably would have been the right idea if he could have gotten a strong enough force behind him doesn't mean it wasn't treason, it was hella treason.
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Jul 5, 2014 17:52
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Treason is a nonsense unless you've actually voluntarily sworn an oath of loyalty so it doesn't really matter one poo poo whether what John Brown did is treason or not (it clearly was though), what matters is that he was actually trying to do something about the stunningly cruel and vile slaveholding society he lived in. He should totally be on quarters and poo poo.
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Jul 5, 2014 18:00
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Everyone should also read the letter from Victor Hugo pleading for the pardon of John Brown:quote:As for myself, though I am but a mere atom, yet being, as I am, common with all other men, inspired with the conscience of humanity, I fall on my knees, weeping before the great starry banner of the New World; and with clasped hands, and with profound and filial respect, I implore the illustrious American Republic, sister of the French witness the assassination of Emancipation by Liberty. Republic, to see to the safety of the universal moral law, to save John Brown, to demolish the threatening scaffold of the 16th of December, and not to suffer that beneath its eyes, and I add; with a shudder, almost by its fault, crime should be perpetrated surpassing the first fratricide or iniquity. For---- yes, let America know it, and ponder on it well---there is something more terrible than Cain slaying Abel: It is Washington slaying Sparticus!
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Jul 5, 2014 18:08
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JonathonSpectre posted:arguing with libertarians.txt The libertarian answer to this would be that you're just a dirty Statist fishing for reasons to justify your ideology when confronted with reality or some other ironic ad hominem slur non-argument.
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Jul 5, 2014 18:11
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Hey, way to make discussion of John Brown tedious fishmech, you always exceed expectations. Now everyone gather round and drink the tears of a Kentucky Historian who knows that slavery was bad and everything, but still thinks what John Brown did was just so terrible (from 2011) quote:There is a great incongruity between John Brown’s use and advocacy of violence and the bucolic tranquillity of the place he attacked. Harpers Ferry is a beautiful place where some terrible history took place. But unlike other historic sites, like, say, Lexington and Concord (note to Michele Bachmann: These towns are in Massachusetts; note to Sarah Palin: Paul Revere rode from Boston to warn the Minute Men in Lexington and Concord that the redcoats were coming to confiscate the colonists’ muskets and powder), Harpers Ferry has never gained the stature of sacred American soil. In part, I think that’s because the now-restored village suffers from the legacy of John Brown’s morally twisted and befuddling attempt to use violence in the name of ending slavery, as good a cause as existed in the middle of the 19th century. We like our history simple. At Harpers Ferry, one must confront a moral dilemma: Is violence ever justified in removing evil from the world? 
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Jul 5, 2014 18:21
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Fried Chicken posted:No, We quite literally pay companies to put poo poo food that results in steady employment in a toss up state that kicks off the presidential primary. Couldn't we just cut out the middle man of corporate welfare with hoping for their possible blessings and just help the unemployed directly? It sounds way more efficient to me, especially with the constant moaning and grinding of teeth about "government bloat" you hear about. The stats and evidence bear out food stamps as some of the best economic engines and tax cuts for the wealthy as some of the worst, but... Socialism? 
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Jul 5, 2014 18:26
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Party Plane Jones posted:The only person in the state in the Democratic Party who knows what the hell they are doing is Bill Nelson and when he finally retires the state is going to be hosed. But don't you know? Charlie Crist is the face of the future of the Democratic Party of Florida. 
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Jul 5, 2014 18:29
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SedanChair posted:Hey, way to make discussion of John Brown tedious fishmech, you always exceed expectations. Well poo poo we better find the head of house Hohenzollern and some neo-nazis and give them a coin toss for control of Germany since violence isn't morally justifiable.
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Jul 5, 2014 18:30
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A loving moron posted:Is violence ever justified in removing evil from the world? Yes? What exactly is the alternative, let fascists like Hitler and Mussolini steamroll you since they have no moral qualms with brutally killing your rear end? Is this some weird "I literally believe in turning the other cheek" thing? Horseshoe theory fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Jul 5, 2014 |
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Jul 5, 2014 18:55
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ThirdPartyView posted:Yes? What exactly is the alternative, let fascists like Hitler and Mussolini steamroll you since they have no moral qualms with brutally killing your rear end? Is this some weird "I literally believe in turning the other cheek" thing? Samurai Sanders fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Jul 5, 2014 |
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Jul 5, 2014 19:01
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SedanChair posted:Hey, way to make discussion of John Brown tedious fishmech, you always exceed expectations. There isn't a big enough  for someone who loving argues against violence while implying that the local slaveholders were in the right. God drat, I just want to slap him. Violently. Maybe to knock the evil off his stupid, smug face.ThirdPartyView posted:Yes? What exactly is the alternative, let fascists like Hitler and Mussolini steamroll you since they have no moral qualms with brutally killing your rear end? Is this some weird "I literally believe in turning the other cheek" thing? It's literally just an excuse to smear a good man.
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Jul 5, 2014 19:04
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Samurai Sanders posted:I guess the theoretical nonviolent solution is stopping them before they get to the point where violence becomes the only solution (by the proverbial letting Hitler into art school), but does anyone seriously believe that that can be done every time? Well if you're naive enough to believe that violence is never the answer then you're probably naive enough to believe that the right non-violent situation will be enacted 100% of the time.
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Jul 5, 2014 19:06
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Samurai Sanders posted:I guess the theoretical nonviolent solution is stopping them before they get to the point where violence becomes the only solution, but does anyone seriously believe that that can be done every time? No, history is pretty much chocked full of examples where if someone actually used violence against evil* a poo poo load of horrible things wouldn't have happened... or at least those horrible things would be much much less horrible/effected much fewer people. *I hate using the term "evil" in a historical sense as it's massively relativistic, so hopefully people don't jump on me for doing it.
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Jul 5, 2014 19:07
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ThirdPartyView posted:Yes? What exactly is the alternative, let fascists like Hitler and Mussolini steamroll you since they have no moral qualms with brutally killing your rear end? Is this some weird "I literally believe in turning the other cheek" thing? loving Hitler. Always complicating Southern claims that the Civil War was an unjust war of Northern Aggression. That's why the serious Klansmen and Southern Heritage fanatics are strict isolationists.
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Jul 5, 2014 19:08
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Why is treason being relative such a strange concept? Benedict Arnold is a hero in England for example.
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Jul 5, 2014 19:11
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Gyges posted:loving Hitler. Always complicating Southern claims that the Civil War was an unjust war of Northern Aggression. That's why the serious Klansmen and Southern Heritage fanatics are strict isolationists. I still like calling it the War of Southern Treachery in response to people calling it the War of Northern Aggression.
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Jul 5, 2014 19:11
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hobbesmaster posted:Why is treason being relative such a strange concept? Benedict Arnold is a hero in England for example. He should be a hero in America. loving Horatio Gates.
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Jul 5, 2014 19:15
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Magres posted:I still like calling it the War of Southern Treachery in response to people calling it the War of Northern Aggression. I still don't get how Southerners explain that it was a War of Northern Aggression when the Confederacy shelled Fort Sumter, thus declaring war? Do they just view it as eminent domain or something?
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Jul 5, 2014 19:16
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hobbesmaster posted:Why is treason being relative such a strange concept? Benedict Arnold is a hero in England for example. And his foot is a hero in America. 
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Jul 5, 2014 19:17
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ThirdPartyView posted:I still don't get how Southerners explain that it was a War of Northern Aggression when the Confederacy shelled Fort Sumter, thus declaring war? Do they just view it as eminent domain or something? The North elected Lincoln. How could the South not attempt to leave the Union and attack a U.S. Fort after that?
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Jul 5, 2014 19:18
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Magres posted:I still like calling it the War of Southern Treachery in response to people calling it the War of Northern Aggression. That and pointedly referring to the Union as America, against the enemy confederates.
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Jul 5, 2014 19:19
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A day late, but thanks, Obama, for fixing the forums.
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Jul 5, 2014 19:25
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