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shrike82 posted:I'm taking issues with posts like the below on this very page. Hotsauce may have engaged in a little hyperbole, sure, but my confusion stems more from the mixing of debates you're still having. As someone who migrated to a Surface Pro from a Macbook myself I certainly agree there are pros and cons to each worth discussing and, after all, Microsoft is aggressively pushing the SP3 as an Air replacement. However I was responding in the context of the SP2 vs SP3, as are you (mostly) and that's where I'm still puzzled with your logic. Is the trackpad on the SP3 Type 3 cover better than an Ultrabooks? No. Nothing still beats Apple for those, even other Windows ultrabooks. Is it better than the one on the SP2 Type 2 (or Type 1) cover though? By a country mile, yes. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone who thought otherwise. And so when someone asks whether to buy the SP2 or SP3 one of the supporting reasons to buy the latter is the trackpad on the new cover. Get it? And so on. This tablet thing for example I simply don't get. Yes the SP3 has a bigger screen. It also has a much more tablet-friendly aspect ratio, is thinner and is lighter - noticeably. I have used both extensively in tablet mode and it is a serious head-scratcher to me to try and figure out how anyone would think the SP2 is "better" in this mode simply because it has a slightly smaller screen. For starters I actually use the SP3 in Portrait mode quite a bit - it's great for web pages and spreadsheets - which try as I might I could never handle with the SP2. Overall are either one as good a "tablet" as the iPad Air? As far as holding the thing day to day, battery life, and software ecosystem goes no, but again that wasn't the question. Saying that the SP3 is really a whole different kind of device from the SP2 - and that the latter makes for a more "tablet friendly" experience than the former is simply mind-boggling to me. Each to their own though - like someone said earlier, I don't really care what any of you spend your money on, opinions were solicited and I gave mine. If the SP2 makes someone really happy who am I to say otherwise, dumb as I may think it is.
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Jul 4, 2014 17:49
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Ixian posted:Hotsauce may have engaged in a little hyperbole, sure, but my confusion stems more from the mixing of debates you're still having. Guilty as charged, your honor. I guess the SP3, for my needs, is the pinnacle of mobile computing. It checks every box I've had listed for many years. I'm thrilled with the machine. Do I prefer a real notebook when I'm sitting in my recliner? Yep. Do I end up using a bluetooth mouse when using the SP3 for long periods? Yep. And so on. As with any tablet, it has it's drawbacks and tradeoffs. I cannot think of another machine that I would prefer to fly/travel with, however. Not a single one. Guess I was a bit strong with my recommendation of the SP3, but I regret nothing. I stand by the fact that it's simply perfect. Again, for my use case. FWIW. If you find a cheap SP2, please buy it. It's a fine machine, but isn't nearly as good as the SP3 IMO.
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Jul 4, 2014 18:01
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shrike82 posted:You guys are way overselling the SP3 both on absolute terms as a ultrabook/tablet hybrid and on relative terms to the SP2. As a longtime MBA user that just migrated to it, I'm happy with the buy but I wouldn't recommend it to others without qualification. I just got my first MBA (for Swift development) alongside my SurfacePro1 (for Windows development) and I'm not enjoying the MBA... * The trackpad by default is really slow. I tweaked the speed in the settings but it didn't end up feeling natural. Bought a third party app which is a little better but still not right. * I really miss using touch for scrolling, e.g. web-pages. I guess the MBA needs the bigger vertical space on its trackpad for this. * I find click-and-drag really hard on the MBA. I guess you have to use one finger for it, and so can't scroll as far as you'd like. On SP1 I'd click with one finger and drag with the other on its touched. * The screen resolution on the MBA is pretty low after using SP1. * Somehow the MBA just feels like there's a lot more "case" and less "computer" going on inside it. I don't know why. It's bizarre to be saying this, given how the MBA is basically a triumph of slim ultrabook, but it somehow doesn't feel like that compared to the SP1. * Lack of home/end/pageup/pagedown is killing me! I know I can command-arrow and option-arrow, but that doesn't work in enough apps. Option-up doesn't do anything in Xcode for instance. Also when I want to select stuff, pressing Shift+Command+Left is more modifiers than my brain seems able to manage. This is all probably biased because I've been using the SP1 for coding, authoring and development for over a year, and only started with the MBA a couple of weeks ago. Also probably biased because I work at MS in the VB/C# compiler team. ljw1004 fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Jul 4, 2014 |
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Jul 4, 2014 19:32
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I wouldn't recommend either machine for coding. And I take your point about preference being tied to what environment/machine you're used to. The problem is that Microsoft has set the SP3 up as an MBA killer and is hoping to poach consumers who have MBA/iPads. I don't think we're going to see many SP users looking to make the reverse leap to Apple machines (and Apple probably doesn't give a poo poo anyway).
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Jul 4, 2014 20:08
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ljw1004 posted:* I really miss using touch for scrolling, e.g. web-pages. I guess the MBA needs the bigger vertical space on its trackpad for this. ljw1004 posted:* I find click-and-drag really hard on the MBA. I guess you have to use one finger for it, and so can't scroll as far as you'd like. On SP1 I'd click with one finger and drag with the other on its touched. Are MBAs that different than MBPs? I have a 15 inch Macbook pro and you can use two fingers to scroll very easily and also hold one finger down to select a file and use the other to move it about the screen. The MBP touch pad is the absolute best touchpad experience I've ever had, and I've never experienced anything on a windows laptop that compares. It would really surprise me that the MBA would have a touch pad that isn't on the same level.
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Jul 4, 2014 20:25
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ljw1004 posted:I've been using a SurfacePro1 with 4gb of RAM for development within VS over the past year - phone apps, windows apps, ASP.Net WebAPI apps, HTML/JS apps. No problems.  Did some more searching and apparently having hyper-V installed, which the phone emulator uses, means connected standby/InstantGo doesn't work. If so, it just starts behaving like a regular laptop, right? That's really weird but I guess I could deal with it.
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Jul 4, 2014 20:34
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shrike82 posted:I wouldn't recommend either machine for coding. You don't know this about me and I don't know your particular use case, but I run a large development team for my company and I use my SP3 (and did use my SP2) for development every day so while your statement might be true for whatever you do it's certainly not as widespread an issue as you think. Does VS2013 build or otherwise run as fast as, say, my home dev machine, which is an i7 powered beast? Of course not. But I get quite a bit done with it, I assure you. I debug or otherwise demo projects for clients in the field on it almost every week. And this fact by itself is why I prefer it, because while it may have compromises overall I prefer toting just it around as opposed to an iPad and a laptop, like I used to do (and just a laptop for many years before that). One trend I have picked up on - here and otherwise - is the Surface Pro series is particularly popular among technical folk/developers who travel a lot. Certainly that's why I like it. If you have to haul bags around dozens of airports a year and deal with multiple hotel rooms and conference rooms you probably have more appreciation for this thing. Not to mention it's great on planes. I can get work done on it, it plays movies well (I have XBMC set up on it with a USB stick for storage) and best of all it looks like enough of a tablet that United and American both let me keep it out throughout the flight - even with the new mobile rules most airlines still make you put actual laptops away, but I have never had an issue with either the SP2 or SP3 after the rules changed earlier in the year. The pros have other advantages as well - for starters, if you are a .Net developer (or us VS as your IDE for other languages, like we do) then having a real Windows machine is a major plus. The MBA doesn't handle VS well even with Parallels in my experience and the screen is of a much lower quality than either Surface Pro - particularly the 3. And don't even get me started on the many issues with Bootcamp. Each to their own.
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Jul 4, 2014 20:51
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shrike82 posted:I wouldn't recommend either machine for coding. I live in SSMS/SSDT on my SP1, with a BT keyboard. I would recommend it highly, with some font adjustments.
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Jul 4, 2014 21:29
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DrBox posted:Question for canadian goons: There are occasional anecdotes about microsoft store employees tossing in a free type cover or other goodies to sweeten the pot. I wouldn't waltz in there expecting it to happen, though.
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Jul 4, 2014 23:05
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Clark Nova posted:There are occasional anecdotes about microsoft store employees tossing in a free type cover or other goodies to sweeten the pot. I wouldn't waltz in there expecting it to happen, though. You can't even stack the education discount with the bundles, so stuff like that isn't very common. Warranty is better at Microsoft if you buy it vs. Best Buy, but that's about it.
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Jul 4, 2014 23:27
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The Dave posted:Are MBAs that different than MBPs? I have a 15 inch Macbook pro and you can use two fingers to scroll very easily and also hold one finger down to select a file and use the other to move it about the screen. The MBP touch pad is the absolute best touchpad experience I've ever had, and I've never experienced anything on a windows laptop that compares. It would really surprise me that the MBA would have a touch pad that isn't on the same level. The MBAs and MBPs have equivalent track pads. I don't think that it's controversial to state that there's no Windows laptop that has had a track pad comparable to Apples' and that even among Window laptops, the SP series' track pad doesn't rank particularly well. Re coding, there's some disagreement here so a prospective buyer is best off spending some time actually testing their IDE or dev workflow on it. I personally have a hard time agreeing with ljw's perspective that coding is viable on a 10" SP or with a Type Cover. Re (business) travel, the biggest knocks to the SP3 are "lapability" & fragility. MSFT's has made the kick stand integral to the SP line but it's an evolutionary dead end. With 3 design iterations, it's clear that the kick stand will never work as well on your lap as a traditional clamshell. And without the clamshell, the device feels a lot more fragile. The SP3 doesn't suffer a single major defect but rather a bunch of minor niggles which result in a whole that's less than the sum of its parts (e.g., using a substitute KB/mouse, hyper-v killing InstantGo etc.) As an aside, has anyone had issues with f.lux on the SP3? I've had to uninstall it as it was causing random crashes...
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Jul 5, 2014 01:21
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My secret dream is that they'll make the power cover for the SP3 attach to make it a clamshell style, since we're throwing weight/portability out of the window with the power cover anyways.
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Jul 5, 2014 01:46
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shrike82 posted:I wouldn't recommend either machine for coding. I code just fine on the sp3. Inclined type cover makes all the difference for me. It is really comfortable to type on. Regarding touchpad, I almost never use it. Touch is perfectly accurate and nicely implemented in win 8 where I don't really need the trackpad for common tasks. I do carry a mouse in my backpack for 3d modeling/animating work too.
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Jul 5, 2014 02:43
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Rurutia posted:My secret dream is that they'll make the power cover for the SP3 attach to make it a clamshell style, since we're throwing weight/portability out of the window with the power cover anyways. As long as it's appropriately svelte and not designed like an HP Split, I'd like this too.
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Jul 5, 2014 03:56
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Wouldn't that just be an ultra book then? 
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Jul 5, 2014 04:10
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Mecca-Benghazi posted:Wouldn't that just be an ultra book then? More like the HP Split X2, which is closer to the Ultrabook side of the line than the Surface series is. I don't see Microsoft retreating any time soon on this. Yes, the corporation is somewhat notorious for retreating in recent years - Windows 8, XBox One, to name a couple - but I have a hunch they are going to stick it out with the Surface (other than perhaps changing the name to Lumia, as has been rumored). They are way committed to the whole kickstand/keyboard thing and besides, adding a battery cover that was both heavy enough and had a stiff enough hinge would add considerable weight/bulk to the point where the sum would be worse than most dedicated top-end Ultrabooks - and that isn't the direction they are going. The SP3 really is pretty amazing for how light and thin it is considering the size and quality of the screen and the overall power it provides. That is the real message they are sending - as hard as many find it to believe a 12 inch tablet could be viable in a world with the iPad Air they are actually very close to pulling it off - it's really their software ecosystem around tablets that is holding them back at this point. Which also means you should remember, they aren't really in this to be in the hardware business. The Surface line is closer in concept to Google's Nexus line (except Microsoft in-sources more of the build) in that it's a showcase for what they think a convergent Windows 8.x (and soon 9.x) powered device should be. The way their business still works I think they'd be happier to see the Dells, Lenovos, and HP's of the world start building better devices like it then personally outselling the MBA. Ixian fucked around with this message at 04:25 on Jul 5, 2014 |
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Jul 5, 2014 04:23
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It's an interesting question. The Surface does act as a showcase a la Nexus and Microsoft has definitely raised consumer expectations for tablet hybrids. I'm skeptical however about MSFT's commitment to the product line. Elope killed the Surface Mini right before launch and RT is dead as a platform. I wouldn't be surprised if management kills the Surface Pro if it doesn't gain traction especially since Panos Panay spun this as a MBA killer. What benefit accrues to MSFT to keep the series around if it remains a niche product? Agreed about the app ecosystem being key. Offering the full desktop experience is a double-edged sword. Consumers get access to all their desktop apps. The downside is that there's little incentive for developers to provide Metro versions of their apps. The Store is a wasteland and I don't see it getting better.
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Jul 5, 2014 05:06
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I really, really like Win8 as a tablet OS - it's the best of them, in my opinion. However, there are no apps, and probably never will be. If that was solved, the great interface and launcher would really shine.
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Jul 5, 2014 05:55
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I guess it might make swallowing the cost of the type cover easier if there's also a power cover that converts to a clamshell so there's an illusion of choice. although I'd envision it working more like the power keyboard for the Nokia 2520 (it's got a battery, extra USB slots, and chiclet keys!) and they own Nokia devices and services now too. I also don't think they need to sell a ton to be happy. Well, maybe they do to make up for that 900 million dollar write off on the original surface rt. But as long as it's profitable they'd probably be okay with keeping it around
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Jul 5, 2014 06:01
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Oh the Xbox music app was updated earlier in the week. Oh and it's still a slow sputtering POS stay tuned
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Jul 5, 2014 09:56
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shrike82 posted:It's an interesting question. The Surface does act as a showcase a la Nexus and Microsoft has definitely raised consumer expectations for tablet hybrids. You answered your first question in your last statement  Microsoft knows that without a thriving app ecosystem they are done - no other company knows it better, as their near-stranglehold on the de facto desktop app ecosystem of the 25+ years prior to Apple's sudden rise in mobile demonstrates. The Surface line is how they show the flag - it demonstrates their commitment to the "mobile/hybrid" experience, gets them lots of press to demonstrate Windows 8 in a portable format, gives developers a common platform to hopefully aim for, and at the same time it's not a big enough effort for them to piss off any of their many hardware OEM partners - and it's also better than outright picking just one partner (such as Dell or HP) to make it for them, which would piss off whoever they didn't pick. You know what else it is? Different. Another way to keep your big partners like Dell or HP from screaming about you entering their market is to make a device that isn't like the ones they make. A clamshell Surface Pro would be a lot like an HP Split. HP is a huge reseller of Microsoft software. Not going to happen any time soon. While I certainly don't think they want to outright lose money on the Surfaces I also don't see it as a profit center for them. There's a lot of R&D and Marketing mixed in to this. Ixian fucked around with this message at 16:22 on Jul 5, 2014 |
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Jul 5, 2014 16:20
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shrike82 posted:Elope If you're going to post your made up theories, at least get the names right. Happy_Misanthrope posted:Oh the Xbox music app was updated earlier in the week. Oh and it's still a slow sputtering POS You're in the wrong thread, the metro version of Xbox Music works pretty well.
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Jul 5, 2014 16:42
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What are the odds on the Transformer Book V being good? Because the more I think about it, the more I want it to replace my SP2 and Moto G. The phone is supposed to have an Intel Moorefield, which I see is a 64-bit chip. That could, theoretically, be a killer Android L phone and tablet. ... plus a Windows 8.1 laptop. With basically ubiquitous LTE. Sounds good to me. e: If it gets Android L, that is. Kit Kat is pretty good, but ART! And I read one source that said the phone's screen is 1080p but not the main screen. Ugh. Manky fucked around with this message at 17:04 on Jul 5, 2014 |
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Jul 5, 2014 16:51
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Factor Mystic posted:You're in the wrong thread, the metro version of Xbox Music works pretty well. Which makes you wonder how in the hell they screwed up the Windows Phone version so badly. So much for Universal apps.
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Jul 5, 2014 16:55
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SymmetryrtemmyS posted:I really, really like Win8 as a tablet OS - it's the best of them, in my opinion. However, there are no apps, and probably never will be. If that was solved, the great interface and launcher would really shine. It's truly amazing just how bad it is. Even organization is still terrible. It's just too much and really confusing for new users. Games: Top grossing, top free, top paid, top rated, new and rising. One thing I'll give WP/W8 is trials. After using an iPad for awhile, it's crazy how many things don't have a trial option on iOS. I'll never buy an app/game unless I can try it first.
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Jul 5, 2014 17:00
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Do you remember the first music app? So loving bad. Maybe that's how MSFT works? Just need a good 1-2 years of updates to release a decent music app.
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Jul 5, 2014 17:01
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Edward IV posted:Which makes you wonder how in the hell they screwed up the Windows Phone version so badly. So much for Universal apps. The backend code is most likely the same. The UI Views are probably not, and that's where most of their issues stem from.
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Jul 5, 2014 17:06
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Factor Mystic posted:If you're going to post your made up theories, at least get the names right. Whoops my bad, albeit the Metro version of Xbox music is poo poo for reasons other than performance.
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Jul 5, 2014 17:59
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How about the fact that Microsoft has yet to release a Metro version of Office. It's clear that even MSFT itself isn't 100% behind Metro.
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Jul 5, 2014 23:06
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shrike82 posted:How about the fact that Microsoft has yet to release a Metro version of Office. Why release a metro version of the office when every product MS makes can run the actual office?
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Jul 6, 2014 04:11
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keyframe posted:Why release a metro version of the office when every product MS makes can run the actual office? shrike82 posted:How about the fact that Microsoft has yet to release a Metro version of Office. Of course it will arrive after the iPad and Android versions, for reasons that I can't fathom other than the environment they're trying to write to is constantly evolving or just the usual inter-divisional crap before Nadella put his foot down. It's frustrating that Windows Runtime is so limited in its interaction with the desktop currently, I expect it will continue to expand but who knows what MS is planning for it eventually - if it's interaction will remain "just run in a window" then I don't see it suddenly gaining huge traction, the ability to create a single runtime for tablets/phones is not exactly a pull when the market for those two form factors is so minescule with respect to Windows developers. There are a ton of advantanges a modern sandboxed desktop environment could bring to the desktop if it has some ability to actually interact with it. A lot of the desktop settings are already backed up with your MS account in 8, but imagine having all those niggly little utilities like 7zip, screenshot apps, game utilities etc having "desktop modern" versions that are automatically installed with all your settings when you're moving to a new system or doing a reformat like the useless Metro apps are now. Onedrive gets a proper music locker, you've got Office 365 with your terabyte of storage space, stick in your USB Windows 9 install key and choose to download the latest version with all the security patches and updates already integrated (like OSX does when you install it over the net) - boom. A completely fresh install with everything patched, all your software (assuming you keep your 3+TB Steam folder on another drive) updated and configured and all your data in under an hour. Would be great, so it won't happen. Happy_Misanthrope fucked around with this message at 04:34 on Jul 6, 2014 |
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Jul 6, 2014 04:17
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Ixian posted:The SP3 really is pretty amazing for how light and thin it is considering the size and quality of the screen and the overall power it provides. That is the real message they are sending - as hard as many find it to believe a 12 inch tablet could be viable in a world with the iPad Air they are actually very close to pulling it off - it's really their software ecosystem around tablets that is holding them back at this point. How is the fan noise compared to the SP2 ? I was wondering considering the SP3 has only a sole fan and the device itself is thinner. I did read some reports that the SP3's fan tend to kick in much more often and louder (not unbearable though). Have you experienced it yet? That's just my second and last concern to the SP3 after the 'throttling' issue. druesnant fucked around with this message at 09:12 on Jul 6, 2014 |
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Jul 6, 2014 09:06
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druesnant posted:How is the fan noise compared to the SP2 ? I was wondering considering the SP3 has only a sole fan and the device itself is thinner. I did read some reports that the SP3's fan tend to kick in much more often and louder (not unbearable though). Have you experienced it yet? The fan doesn't spin up (or is inaudible) on a light workload e.g., web browsing, Office suite work. Anything heavier (e.g., YouTube video on a tab) kicks it in. I'd describe the noise as a susurration. It's quiet enough that I can't picture anyone coming from another laptop taking issue with it. keyframe posted:Why release a metro version of the office when every product MS makes can run the actual office? Why release a metro version of any Windows app? Because desktop apps suck poo poo on touch and often don't support high DPI mode. To use another example, there's no official Spotify client for metro (there exists an unofficial metro app which is terrible). The desktop client doesn't support high DPI mode and so looks like crap. And its UI doesn't translate well to touch.
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Jul 6, 2014 10:01
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shrike82 posted:The fan doesn't spin up (or is inaudible) on a light workload e.g., web browsing, Office suite work. I'm curious: Does the fan kick it in when you play a YT (HTML5) video? If I'm not wrong, HTML5 is a lot less of a resource hog than Flash Player. I also plan to use (either with the SP2 or SP3) Chromium with µBlock, which happens to be also a lot less resourceful than Firefox + adBlock Edge.
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Jul 6, 2014 10:12
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druesnant posted:I'm curious: Does the fan kick it in when you play a YT (HTML5) video? If I'm not wrong, HTML5 is a lot less of a resource hog than Flash Player. Yes to html 5 video. Bad news if you're concerned about resource/battery load is that you'll want to stick to IE over chrome(ium). http://www.neowin.net/news/internet-explorer-still-provides-the-best-laptop-and-tablet-battery-life I've done rough comparisons of IE 11 and Chrome on my SP3 using batterybar and it looks like Chrome consumes 30-100% more power than IE. Again, very rough gauge. Edit: the fan is running right now with just SA open on IE and Spotify playing music... shrike82 fucked around with this message at 10:40 on Jul 6, 2014 |
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Jul 6, 2014 10:30
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shrike82 posted:Yes to html 5 video. That's a bummer. But oh well. I can deal however with the fan just whispering in most case scenarios (and going a bit louder when playing games like all machines generally do). If the other users can confirm this, then I'm happy. I might spend my money on the SP3 in the end, if my worries on the throttling issue can be definitively lessened (considering I'll be spending a grand on this device, I hope you can understand my concern). Frenden has recently written a review and he was overall happy with the possibility to do professional work on the SP3 like he could on the Wacom Companion. I just hope N-trig will release future drivers to improve the jittering lines on slow strokes at least. If I can also be sure that I'll be able to play (on fullscreen but 720p/1080p doesn't bother me because the pixel density of the Surface is excellent) some 3D PC games (Prince of Persia 2008, The Witcher, Morrowind, Serious Sam, Dead Space 1/2, Broken Sword 5, Trine, Torchlight 1, The Walking Dead, ... not any demanding game outside of the Witcher) and PCSX2 & Dolphin emulation on the SP3 without much issues or big framerate drops then I'll buy the SP3 256GB/8GB right away. Though I have to wait for its release on August 28th... druesnant fucked around with this message at 12:08 on Jul 6, 2014 |
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Jul 6, 2014 11:16
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The only time I've ever heard the fan was during the initial firmware flash (day one update). It pegged at 100% for about 10 minutes. Outside of that its silent unless you put your ear up to it. Microsoft apparently spent like 2 years working on the custom fan design for the SP3. Its not an issue unless you have super sensitive hearing.
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Jul 6, 2014 12:10
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druesnant posted:If I can also be sure that I'll be able to play (on fullscreen but 720p/1080p doesn't bother me because the pixel density of the Surface is excellent) some 3D PC games (Prince of Persia 2008, The Witcher, Morrowind, Serious Sam, Dead Space 1/2, Broken Sword 5, Trine, Torchlight 1, The Walking Dead, ... not any demanding game outside of the Witcher) and PCSX2 & Dolphin emulation on the SP3 without much issues or big framerate drops then I'll buy the SP3 256GB/8GB right away. FWIW, I tried FFX and Xenoblade on the relevant emulators for funsies and they ran fine. Walking Dead and older games you typically see on GOG should also run fine. That being said, if you play video games and this is going to be your primary machine, you should think hard about whether the SP3 is right for you. Divine Divinity: Original Sin, an undemanding game by contemporary standards, ran like dogshit on the SP3. I bought a gaming laptop (i7/870m) alongside the SP3 to cover that front. shrike82 fucked around with this message at 12:50 on Jul 6, 2014 |
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Jul 6, 2014 12:48
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Do not buy a surface if you want to game on it.
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Jul 6, 2014 18:04
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keyframe posted:Do not buy a surface if you want to game on it. I would say, say to qualify that with "on the go." Steam in home streaming works great with it.
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Jul 6, 2014 18:17
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