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Mugwump posted:I bought this on Steam sale and played for a bit, it seems really fun, but do they seriously expect me to stop and pick up every single piece of ammo? I went looking for an auto loot option and couldn't find it. It's so drat annoying I haven't played further than the very beginning. Yep, it is one of the worst things about the game for me outside of the terribly bland protagonist.
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Jul 4, 2014 18:27
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blackguy32 posted:Yep, it is one of the worst things about the game for me outside of the terribly bland protagonist. I actually thought BJ was incredibly likable in this Wolfenstein. Surprised to see someone call him bland. I don't really understand why they didn't add auto loot though, it does get kind of obnoxious after awhile. Still it's the best FPS to come out in years.
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Jul 4, 2014 18:41
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I liked the added strategy. Slide running across a big open hall to snag a handful more bullets with a carefully timed button press was nerve wracking.
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Jul 4, 2014 19:09
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Vanilla Sweetness posted:I actually thought BJ was incredibly likable in this Wolfenstein. Surprised to see someone call him bland. I don't really understand why they didn't add auto loot though, it does get kind of obnoxious after awhile. Still it's the best FPS to come out in years. The best was how they took his one dimensional feature of being THE guy who kills Nazi's, and turned it into his biggest strength so he survives insane poo poo only because his need to kills Nazi's drives him forward. Plus the hilarious delivery of some of the Nazi killing dialogue makes him so much more fun.
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Jul 4, 2014 19:19
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MrJacobs posted:How have you not heard of Halo 2 or similar FPS games where dual wielding is exactly like this game and never thought "Maybe this is like one of the most (sadly) influential FPS games ever?" The game is almost ten years old by this point, half of your 20 years worth. Sorry, never owned a console, I only play PC shooters. Keyboard and Mouse supremacy. MrJacobs posted:The best was how they took his one dimensional feature of being THE guy who kills Nazi's, and turned it into his biggest strength so he survives insane poo poo only because his need to kills Nazi's drives him forward. Agree, I really enjoyed his characterization... for one thing, it was always the right amount, bits and pieces of exposition here and there instead of in big chunks.
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Jul 4, 2014 19:43
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Yeah, bland compared to loving what? Master Chief? Soap from COD? Aiden Pierce? Corvo Attano? Booker "I'm totally characterized, you guys" DeWitt? What shooters are you playing that have more rich and compelling protagonists than BJ?
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Jul 4, 2014 20:27
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DStecks posted:Yeah, bland compared to loving what? Master Chief? Soap from COD? Aiden Pierce? Corvo Attano? Booker "I'm totally characterized, you guys" DeWitt? What shooters are you playing that have more rich and compelling protagonists than BJ? Bulletstorm.
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Jul 4, 2014 20:45
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DStecks posted:Yeah, bland compared to loving what? Master Chief? Soap from COD? Aiden Pierce? Corvo Attano? Booker "I'm totally characterized, you guys" DeWitt? What shooters are you playing that have more rich and compelling protagonists than BJ? Someone in this thread actually complained that BJ "monologued all the time/too much", and I like to think that Max Payne 3 might have caused them to have a seizure. I felt that BJ's dialogue was pretty to the point most of the time, just like the character. The bits where he got poetic were rough, but again BJ's primary form of communication is violence, so hearing him seemingly struggle to put to words what he was feeling or experiencing felt really well done. Also, spoiler for final level: "I'm in your house, General." That, combined with the music for that final level got me incredibly psyched to kill even MORE Nazis.
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Jul 4, 2014 21:26
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I really like BJ's whole thing. Bonus mention to Daud and Elizabeth from their respective DLC's, Daud being the better of the pair. I hope this trend never stops with spoken protagonists in FPS, kinda wish Maya would take more in Borderlands 2.  I dont need dialogue choices, just have the main character respond to things that were going to happen anyway.
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Jul 4, 2014 22:08
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I just realized my uber achievement didn't pop. I did all the levels but out of order. Any advice?
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Jul 4, 2014 22:17
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I do think the game has some smart commentary though. My favorite scene is definitely when Blazkowicz first meets J and he explains how America was like for other people. "Before the war, America was the Nazis!" Then B.J. reacts in the most boneheaded way by proving his point and using violence.
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Jul 4, 2014 22:34
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So I bought it in the sale, and have been playing it for a while, and... well to be honest I'm getting really bored with it and don't know if I can be bothered to finish it. I played wolf 2009 and found it very enjoyable, it's a genuinely fun shooter which starts as a COD-alike, and then decides that actually you need to have the Unreal Tournament arsenal to fight the nazis with, and also the nazis start throwing loving magic at you and you get magic powers too, it escalates really nicely and has some of the most fun and interesting weapons of any shooter I can recall in recent memory. This game kinda starts like a COD-alike, and then continues in a COD-like fashion complete with 'war is hell grr grr grr' main character lines at random, and then somehow manages to downplay the fact that you're fighting super technological nazi robots from space. Like, I'm actually fighting space nazi robots and I am bored while doing it, how is that humanly possible? I think it's the style, the game has a lot of outlandish concepts, but it seems to be trying very hard to make them as dull and normal as possible. The game has laser guns, but they function basically identical to the incredibly generic assault rifle and you get very little ammunition for them. The game has different enemies, but they all boil down to 'different coloured nazi' or 'nazi with more health and a bigger gun' through to 'very large nazi with even more big gun' while the majority of the boss encounters are 'exceedingly large nazi (robot) possibly in multiples, with larger gun that is very impressive but actually less dangerous than the basic assault rifle nazi' Even wolf09 went for 'nazi which has specific weak spots you have to snipe' and 'nazi which buffs nearby nazis' for a bit of variety, not to mention 'nazi that resurrects other nazis into nazi fire skeletons' or 'nazi with a loving jetpack'. There's just very little variety beyond what you'd find in probably any of the modern CoDs, with their recent love of bomb-suited guys who are bullet sponges. Aesthetically the game is pretty, it has a fine soundtrack, everything is nicely modeled and the setpieces are well thought out and obviously trying very hard to introduce variety into the game, but when you get right down to it, not very much changes from the first moment you step off the plane, to blowing up the big robot outside the nautica (as far as I could bring myself to play). Well, actually no something does change, the stealth sections get less frequent and they throw more enemies at you that are just bullet sponges with guns you can't possibly hope to avoid taking damage from. Which does nothing to improve the combat. The story... Well it's got a story I guess, though I would hesitate to call it good given that it doesn't make a lot of sense. Why would firing a nuke at deathshead do anything to stop the nazis ruling the world? Killing Caesar doesn't collapse Rome. Why do the resistance continue to live in a lovely berlin basement instead of on the invincible nuclear submarine carrier I just stole? Why do I have to go undercover at a labor camp rather than just shoot everyone from the outside like I have every other time I went anywhere? Including places supposedly far better guarded. Why does the game about fighting nazis rely on the existence of a literal Jewish international secret conspiracy as a major plot point? Why is BJ suddenly some sort of PTSD addled sex maniac serial killer (apparently his only three motivations in life according to his ingame dialogue) instead of a competent if absurdly lucky trained spy? I dunno, it's an alright modern shooter I guess, though I don't much care for the PC controls, they feel poorly translated from a console, but it's certainly not what I was looking for when I bought it, Wolf09 was a lot better for my money, much more interesting and stand-out from other shooters. This one feels... extremely refined and well produced, just not actually very interesting or fun. It's not a fun game. It's a competent game, but wolf09 is fun.
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Jul 5, 2014 01:03
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echronorian posted:I just realized my uber achievement didn't pop. I did all the levels but out of order. Any advice? You can just replay the last level on Uber and get it I believe OwlFancier posted:The story... Well it's got a story I guess, though I would hesitate to call it good given that it doesn't make a lot of sense. Why would firing a nuke at deathshead do anything to stop the nazis ruling the world? Killing Caesar doesn't collapse Rome. Why do the resistance continue to live in a lovely berlin basement instead of on the invincible nuclear submarine carrier I just stole? Why do I have to go undercover at a labor camp rather than just shoot everyone from the outside like I have every other time I went anywhere? Including places supposedly far better guarded. Why does the game about fighting nazis rely on the existence of a literal Jewish international secret conspiracy as a major plot point? Why is BJ suddenly some sort of PTSD addled sex maniac serial killer (apparently his only three motivations in life according to his ingame dialogue) instead of a competent if absurdly lucky trained spy? 1) Because Deathshead is the one responsible for the Nazi's incredible advancements that caused them to win the war. Killing him would prevent any major advancements and stop any more projects, and also cause a huge blow to the Nazi war machine. 2) Because they would have to fly to and from the submarine with helicopters, which isn't exactly the most inconspicuous thing to do. While they are stealth, you can still look out a drat window and see them. It is easier to operate undetected through a sewer system than flying back and forth to a sub. 3) Because you have absolutely no idea if Set is alive or dead. Not to mention he could easily be killed in the chaos. Which if you remember he sneaks into the prison instead of shooting it up. This is not the first time he's done this. 4) Because there needs to be a reason as to why the Nazis suddenly jumped centuries ahead of everyone else. That they used Jewish technology is poetic, because they are supposedly the master race and the best at everything. Instead, they just stole poo poo from an 'inferior' people and claimed it as their own. 5) Because he's not a serial killer, he really hates Nazis which completely hosed the world and his country? And he wants a normal life with a family, which is what he's fighting for? You know, a return to the American dream. White picket fence, 2.5 kids, woman he loves. I mean he even has a dream sequence about it for fucks sake. Not to mention having sex with a person you care about doesn't make you a sex maniac, good Christ. Dapper Dan fucked around with this message at 01:30 on Jul 5, 2014 |
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Jul 5, 2014 01:06
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The game doesn't really communicate those very well. Apparently they can land three of the things in a fountain in the middle of berlin without anyone noticing, and fly them round a bridge for hours without getting shot at. They don't even relocate the command staff to the sub, who's driving the thing while you're away? The helicopters are never treated as being remotely suspicious, and the resistance never has any problems moving people anywhere, they somehow all manage to get to london in hanggliders without the helicopters, I can only assume they can actually teleport. There's a lab in the london nautica, presumably unless deathshead lives there and does his research there, there are lots of other scientists who can use the fancy tech, and besides, the nazis already rule the world, they don't need more technological progress, they've already got all the best stuff which is miles more than anyone else has. I would buy the information gathering argument for the camp if you didn't solve it halfway through by shooting the gently caress out of everything. Essentially I don't buy that there is any situation that BJ will not attempt to solve by shooting, it honestly just makes the game drag because I don't actually believe I have any need for stealth, considering I can shoot up the entire guard barracks and then just walk out afterwards like nothing happened. The game has no consequence for stealth failure, but story wise it pretends like it's a big thing. I know the nazis need some gimmick but 'they were actually right about the international Jewish conspiracy' is a bit off colour for my taste. I don't really think games are capable of handling anything which merits the slightest amount of tact and this one is no exception. Stick to aliens or demons or satanic cult powers, you're better at it. BJ expresses three things throughout the game. 'nazis bad', 'feelings hurt brain' and 'woman good', with about as much eloquence in each case. He doesn't seem like a soldier, he seems like some sort of deranged psychopath that got packaged into a plane and dropped on nazis, especially compared to his characterisation in wolf09 where he writes concise and intelligent mission reports at the end of every level, professionally detached but obviously interested in his mission, and also he is capable of stringing three sentences together without a break in between. Max Hass is capable of more emotional complexity than BJ, and he has more actual character moments with Klaus than BJ has with... Anya, was it? He has more sex with Anya than he does conversations. I don't think character or story is really a necessary thing but the game seems to put a lot of emphasis on it and I don't think it does a very good job in both substance, or the method of telling it. BJ comes across like a caveman, the story doesn't make sense other than as a means to set up painfully predictable setpieces, and is inconsistent with the gameplay. It isn't even cool, it's a bog standard 'overthrow the evil government' story except one of the levels takes place on the moon. It's passable for a videogame story, much like the rest of the game. Passable, if well polished. Markedly mediocre. Astonishingly average. I can't honestly call it good though. Again it reminds me a lot of call of duty, about the COD4:MW mark, not painfully terrible, got a bit of a plot, some nice scenery and memorable bits, but ultimately fairly average. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 02:37 on Jul 5, 2014 |
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Jul 5, 2014 02:19
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OwlFancier posted:Even wolf09 went for 'nazi which has specific weak spots you have to snipe' and 'nazi which buffs nearby nazis' for a bit of variety, not to mention 'nazi that resurrects other nazis into nazi fire skeletons' or 'nazi with a loving jetpack'. I pretty much agree with everything you said to some degree (except I found this to be a fun game), but especially the part about weak points, that alone makes Wolf09 a better game. TNO builds a much more interesting world, but wolf09 is more fun.
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Jul 5, 2014 04:31
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The enemy diversity is definitely lacking but I still have a lot of fun killing the nazis that are there.
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Jul 5, 2014 07:43
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It felt right that I finished my uber playthorough on July 4th as BJ would have wanted it  Enemy types could have been expanded upon aside from having those armored shotgun wielding assholes mixed in with the supersoldiers and random mooks, those guys were total jerks ruining my fun of wanting to slide around shooting my dual shotties that I didn't hesitate to nuke them with rockets when they showed their ugly mugs. Frau Engel in the sequel should have a personal hit squad of Elite Guard from RTCW gunning for you since she's the head of the women's group of the nazi party or have her six kids show up as bosses to fight. Shame about that jacket BJ was wearing, it was nice looking to boot and saved him from becoming chunky salsa.
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Jul 5, 2014 07:57
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blackguy32 posted:Yep, it is one of the worst things about the game for me outside of the terribly bland protagonist. BJ was great, you have terrible opinions, hth.
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Jul 6, 2014 19:06
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Yes, I disagree with you, so obviously you have terrible opinions.
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Jul 6, 2014 19:26
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BJ is appropriate for the game he's in, I'll put it that way.
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Jul 6, 2014 19:27
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Fag Boy Jim posted:BJ is appropriate for the game he's in, I'll put it that way. I would agree with that.
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Jul 6, 2014 19:28
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blackguy32 posted:Yes, I disagree with you, so obviously you have terrible opinions. You haven't actually explained why he's bland.
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Jul 6, 2014 20:02
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Shooters rarely make sense with complex protagonists.
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Jul 6, 2014 20:05
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I relate to BJ because I also hate nazis.
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Jul 6, 2014 20:16
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poptart_fairy posted:You haven't actually explained why he's bland. His character is basically kill nazis. He gets called out on his poo poo about how at one point he was just like the nazis and he simply responds with more violence. He never has really anything to say to anybody other than a few words. His monologues sound like rambling and he has dreams about living the "American Dream" when he finishes the war.
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Jul 6, 2014 20:24
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blackguy32 posted:His character is basically kill nazis. He gets called out on his poo poo about how at one point he was just like the nazis and he simply responds with more violence. He never has really anything to say to anybody other than a few words. His monologues sound like rambling and he has dreams about living the "American Dream" when he finishes the war. Which would be all be fine too, if the game didn't keep trying to make you care about it. It is a game with far too much focus on story for the actual amount of story it contains.
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Jul 6, 2014 20:31
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blackguy32 posted:His character is basically kill nazis. He gets called out on his poo poo about how at one point he was just like the nazis and he simply responds with more violence. He never has really anything to say to anybody other than a few words. His monologues sound like rambling and he has dreams about living the "American Dream" when he finishes the war. Counterpoint, this is actually awesome, hilarious, and occasionally touching. He is the first person shooter personified, trying to cope with a world he doesn't understand using a very limited set of preoccupations, and you just can't help but root for his slightly wounded, slightly oafish, utterly earnest journey. I unironically adored BJ's personality and dialog. He wants to be a real boy but his only notions of how humanity operates outside the war are Americana postcards he mimics without understanding. He knows his destiny is to kill Nazis and that he will never be real doing anything else. His relationships are simple, earnest, and clumsy (like FPS writing), and his love for Anya is based on the fact that she really wants to grow up and be an FPS protagonist herself: she's spent years killing Nazis in every way but with a gun. General Battuta fucked around with this message at 20:41 on Jul 6, 2014 |
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Jul 6, 2014 20:36
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blackguy32 posted:His character is basically kill nazis. He gets called out on his poo poo about how at one point he was just like the nazis and he simply responds with more violence. He never has really anything to say to anybody other than a few words. His monologues sound like rambling and he has dreams about living the "American Dream" when he finishes the war. You just explained why rambly, violent, nervous BJ is not bland. 
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Jul 6, 2014 20:37
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General Battuta posted:Counterpoint, this is actually awesome, hilarious, and occasionally touching. He is the first person shooter personified, trying to cope with a world he doesn't understand using a very limited set of preoccupations, and you just can't help but root for his slightly wounded, slightly oafish, utterly earnest journey. I unironically adored BJ's personality and dialog. Like I said, it fits the game very well. You rarely interact with the world in any other way than killing Nazis, and the writing actually manages to work with this. Tonally, I thought it was similar to Max Payne.
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Jul 6, 2014 20:37
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Pomp posted:You just explained why rambly, violent, nervous BJ is not bland. A few monologues and living the "American Dream" does not make a character. But then again, blandness is subjective, so what works for you, doesn't work for me.
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Jul 6, 2014 20:54
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Characters are built on relationships. BJ is a white-bread American hero with a gift for Nazi killing, defined by a bone-deep fatigue and yearning to be something more that echoes the state of the FPS genre as a whole. He's not a gripping guy in and of himself, but he meets a lot of interesting people and tries his best to relate to them, which is kind of metafictionally cool: he's this dumb game trying to meet something smarter and do what he can to help. His relationship with Anya is shallow but in a way I totally buy. They're a couple young-ish people thrown together in a climate of physical danger and existential uncertainty, so they gently caress a bunch and feel really attached to each other. The game even lets Anya make the first move, which I respect, even if it's just a little thing and she's a bit of a creeper towards her patient of many years.
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Jul 6, 2014 21:05
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General Battuta posted:Counterpoint, this is actually awesome, hilarious, and occasionally touching. He is the first person shooter personified, trying to cope with a world he doesn't understand using a very limited set of preoccupations, and you just can't help but root for his slightly wounded, slightly oafish, utterly earnest journey. I unironically adored BJ's personality and dialog. I'm not sure I can buy that the incredibly bland writing is actually genius because it's ironically bland.
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Jul 6, 2014 21:23
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I also think the world and environment design is by far at it's weakest when it gets too over-the-top (London Monitor, and the giant robot dogs). At it's best, it's depictions of a sterile police state and the odd instances of technologies that are slightly more advanced than you'd think (security cameras and 1980s-esque computer terminals in the 1960s) are really, really well-done.
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Jul 6, 2014 21:26
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I don't think the writing is at all bland. BJ is pretty stock but the characters around him pop very nicely. Tekla's great, the lady who gets the exoskeleton is a memorable leader, the gay dude from the concentration camp, the Jewish superscientist - they're all pretty strong. We're not talking Far Cry 3 'I meant them all to be irritating and racist' levels of metafiction. BJ's just painted as kind of a blunt instrument who's trying to do his best for the real, full-fledged human beings he cares about.
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Jul 6, 2014 21:27
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Fag Boy Jim posted:I also think the world and environment design is by far at it's weakest when it gets too over-the-top (London Monitor, and the giant robot dogs). At it's best, it's depictions of a sterile police state and the odd instances of technologies that are slightly more advanced than you'd think (security cameras and 1980s-esque computer terminals in the 1960s) are really, really well-done. I would argue that that is what Call of Duty exists for, and Wolfenstein exists to have you fighting insane Nazi bullshit with rayguns and giant brass balls. Essentially most of my complaints can be boiled down to 'why does this game need to exist?' because it's very much like a shitton of other games that have been around for quite a while longer. Fighting the evil technologically advanced guv'mint with your plucky band of renegade fighters by hiding behind walls a lot and picking at them with your bog standard FPS machinegun is literally the plot of the later black ops games, isn't it?
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Jul 6, 2014 21:28
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OwlFancier posted:I would argue that that is what Call of Duty exists for, and Wolfenstein exists to have you fighting insane Nazi bullshit with rayguns and giant brass balls. This is basically getting down into "the game is different than I wanted it to be", which, fine, but is useless as criticism.
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Jul 6, 2014 21:29
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Fag Boy Jim posted:This is basically getting down into "the game is different than I wanted it to be", which, fine, but is useless as criticism. I would argue that 'the game is extremely derivative and brings little to the table which is not readily available in the current gaming climate' is a fairly valid criticism, what's the point in buying or making a game that is like a bunch of other games that are already out, some having been out for several years by now. Wolfenstein 09 was a quite stand-out game when it was released, and is still a quite rare example of an FPS which encourages a quite old-fashioned run-and-gun kind of gameplay. This release is far less so, I would argue that that makes it a significant step back for the series. I keep coming back to it but the game is very much like a call of duty game, in terms of both plot and gameplay, the main difference is the setting which swaps techno-future robots and faceless goons for retro-future robots and faceless goons. As opposed to 09's game which lets you run around zapping nazis in the dick with a lightning gun in slow motion, and encourages you to do that to beat levels expediently.
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Jul 6, 2014 21:33
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If you are playing the game by primarily cover-shooting and ADSing, please try run-and-guning it. The mere fact that your aim is not particularly affected by sprinting, duel-wielding, or hip-firing is enough to make it much different than a COD game. This is to say nothing of the level design which is actually rather good at the old John Romero rule to show windows into secret areas, and let the players figure out how to enter them.
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Jul 6, 2014 21:35
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Fag Boy Jim posted:If you are playing the game by primarily cover-shooting and ADSing, please try run-and-guning it. The mere fact that your aim is not particularly affected by sprinting, duel-wielding, or hip-firing is enough to make it much different than a COD game. Tried it and the damage on higher difficulties makes it quite punishing, the most reliable way to win is to plink at stuff from cover as a few bullets will kill you quite easily, also the presence of shotgun-wielding assholes that will gun you down if you try to get close, and the supersoldiers which have an instant kill grab attack don't do it any favors either. The medallion mechanic in 09 circumvents that by encouraging you to just use your powers to kill people effectively and aggressively the harder the game gets, or break out your superweapons for hard fights. TNO has neither superweapons nor any offensive powers, your primary method of survival is hiding behind something, in 09 it's killing everything as quickly as possible. Early on and on low difficulties sure you can just shoot everything a couple of times and it dies, but as the game progresses and if you turn the difficulty up, it forces you more and more into playing it like a cover shooter, which I think is a much less engaging response to challenge than its predecessor. Hell 09 even highlights this by having the beginning of the game play without the medallion, and it's quite hard given the enemies you're fighting, once you get the medallion you quickly find how using it is your best way out of a tough situation. The game encourages you to be more aggressive and use more of the cool stuff the harder it gets. TNO doesn't. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Jul 6, 2014 |
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Jul 6, 2014 21:38
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General Battuta posted:BJ's just painted as kind of a blunt instrument who's trying to do his best for the real, full-fledged human beings he cares about. Isn't his nickname that Set gave him a nod to this? Cant recall what it was.
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Jul 6, 2014 21:39
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