|
gnome7 posted:Fun fact! We are part of that gaming community, and your voice matters. Your reaction to these lovely people counts as part of the community reaction. Keep on keeping on, Maltose. No I think there was some misinterpreting? I was annoyed because someone suggesting that people play games or publish them or do what they want to do with the hobby was told gently caress off. I don't have a problem with anything going on in this thread beyond that! It certainly appears there are people on the publishing side of the industry that are, well, dicks. I'm not really in that sphere at all so I'm not particularly aware of what goes on there. I don't contribute new games, so I can't/don't improve the hobby that way. I mostly run a few games here, and I do my best to keep anti social bs out. Is that worthy of "gently caress off"?
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2014 21:23
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 17:32 |
|
|
Tollymain posted:they call it pathfinder unchained but idk it still looks pretty chained to the d20 framework  I was hoping this would be a reskin of OctaNe.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2014 22:43
|
|
|
Captain Foo posted:No I think there was some misinterpreting? I was annoyed because someone suggesting that people play games or publish them or do what they want to do with the hobby was told gently caress off. I don't have a problem with anything going on in this thread beyond that!
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2014 22:51
|
|
|
DalaranJ posted:
I do believe Jared Cook made a fantasy version of OctaNe, but I've never actually seen it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2014 22:53
|
|
|
LeSquide posted:You have an autographed copy of OctaNe? I wonder if I left it in my childhood bedroom at my parents' house when I moved or if it is in an endless unsortable stack at our shared gaming zone? Well, better keep typing to the thread about it
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2014 23:00
|
|
gnome7 posted:Fun fact! We are part of that gaming community, and your voice matters. Your reaction to these lovely people counts as part of the community reaction. Keep on keeping on, Maltose. Well, in the case of D&D 5e, you should consider raising a fuss over it with some other good guys. Threats of boycotts or piracy or whatever. Wizards is a business, and if they think crediting those d-bags is a losing proposition, they'll drop them like a cinder block covered in poo poo. Dunno about how to clean up an internet community though. Hope the moderators or whoever else is in charge are good folks and can be arsed to get rid of people who are acting like cockheads? I know sinking to their level and throwing about insults is worthless, and doing poo poo like doxxing is a nice way to make yourself look like the rear end in a top hat.
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2014 00:03
|
|
Illvillainy posted:"Why don't you create your own [ART/MEDIA] then?"/"Be the change you want to happen" is typical handwaving bullshit that puts the responsibility upon victims marginalized people and people that possess basic empathy hear every loving day. It gets immensely annoying. What responsibility? On John Tarnowski and Zak Smith to change? Is that a reasonable expectation? On Wizards of the Coast to redress the problems here? That's a matter of economic pressure. On the RPG online community to become less of a shithole? How are you going to do that without either shifting the makeup of the community or shifting the circumstances around it, and how are you going to do those things without creating things? Or is the only progressive way the path of learned helplessness?
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2014 00:51
|
|
|
Effectronica posted:What responsibility? On John Tarnowski and Zak Smith to change? Is that a reasonable expectation? On Wizards of the Coast to redress the problems here? That's a matter of economic pressure. On the RPG online community to become less of a shithole? How are you going to do that without either shifting the makeup of the community or shifting the circumstances around it, and how are you going to do those things without creating things? Or is the only progressive way the path of learned helplessness? The problem with it is that those people already are doing those things, and asking others to help out. The problem with this response is that instead of saying "hey maybe I should help out" it's saying "hey maybe you should do more." That's why its condescending and counter-productive. If the person saying this actually gave a poo poo about the problem and wasn't just concern trolling, the question would be "what games/art/media are there that are better about this so I can support them?"
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2014 01:07
|
|
Comrade Gorbash posted:The problem with it is that those people already are doing those things, and asking others to help out. I don't think that dictating that there be one proper way of thinking is a progressive, liberal, leftist, or decent way of looking at the world. It's perfectly reasonable to say to someone that feels that the RPG community is hopelessly awful that they should make games because the person may not think that things are so bad as all that. I personally think that people massively overestimate how awful the hobby is and somewhat overestimate the online community's problems. The bigger problem, from my perspective, is less that Zak S enables harassment and more that people still take him seriously as part of the online community and allow him in Google+ Circles and so on.
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2014 01:24
|
|
|
The true problem is that people keep taking this guy who takes pains to harass people, not just on the internet but in actual real life, too seriously. Cool, cool.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2014 01:34
|
|
|
Mr. Maltose posted:The true problem is that people keep taking this guy who takes pains to harass people, not just on the internet but in actual real life, too seriously. Cool, cool. What Effectronica means, I suspect, is that people are still allowing Zak S into rpg-related communities and discussion despite being what can be described as a problem character. I know you're being sarcastic but you're right, part of the problem is people taking Zak's online views with any credibility. So yes, we should take Zak S less seriously as a source of knowledge/authority, but continue an aggressive stance against his harassment. I apologise, Effectronica, if that wasn't what you meant.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2014 01:38
|
|
|
SunAndSpring posted:Well, in the case of D&D 5e, you should consider raising a fuss over it with some other good guys. I have been, thanks. I've been linking people in contact with Mearls all sorts of resources on Zak S and Tarnowski for days now, and I've been very critical of everything that's happened so far. I'm not the loudest voice on it, but that's because I'm not in as good of a position to speak as some other people are, so I have been supporting those people instead. Effectronica posted:What responsibility? On John Tarnowski and Zak Smith to change? Is that a reasonable expectation? On Wizards of the Coast to redress the problems here? That's a matter of economic pressure. On the RPG online community to become less of a shithole? How are you going to do that without either shifting the makeup of the community or shifting the circumstances around it, and how are you going to do those things without creating things? Or is the only progressive way the path of learned helplessness? As for "Be the change you want to be" and all that, it's not like I'm not ALSO doing that. I've been writing more inclusive games, and buying the ones that make an effort to be inclusive. I've been speaking up in the community, and calling out poo poo like this 5E nonsense when I see it. Part of why I get angry with things like "Well just play good games" and "support the good people in the industry instead" and all that is because I am also doing that. I can do that AND speak out against the awful parts of our hobby. These are not mutually exclusive. It's a deflection tactic that has no merit. Telling me I should be making games instead of speaking out is ignoring my ability to do both. In fact, even if you were not making games, if you're not good at it or you're just an enthusiast, I'd still want you to speak up against harassment, too. Like, the assumption here is that because I am spending time spreading awareness about what Zak S does to people, it must be the only thing I am doing about this. And that's just not true - I am also boycotting 5E, along with basically all of my friends who I've talked to about this. I am also trying to change the community, by speaking with the people within it and doing what I can to change or reject horrible people and their input. I can also create things that have a variety of gender and ethnic representation. I can do all of these things. Just because I am only doing one form of activism in this community in a day does not mean it is the only thing I am doing, or that it is the only thing worth doing, or anything like that. I want this hobby to improve. I want this community to improve. My input is a drop of water in a giant ocean of other people and opinions. It barely matters, I am easily ignored. So I'm going to keep adding another drop every day, and maybe I'll see something happen here. I'm doing what I can. I recognize its not much, but its more than someone who doesn't want me to speak up because I should be doing other things instead.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2014 01:50
|
|
|
In all seriousness, I want you to show me the post where someone said "your concerns are not valid, be silent" and not "hey, these guys are shitheads, maybe we should collectively work to make the hobby inhospitable to their opinions and others like them." I can't escape the impression that no one is actually arguing about the same thing at this stage, and down that rocky road lies the dark territory of collegiate Trotskyist debate.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2014 02:12
|
|
|
I didn't intend to say people shouldn't speak out, not at all. What I was trying to get across is that for some people, grassy gnoll's advice is good advice; I'm one of them. edit: quote:I can't escape the impression that no one is actually arguing about the same thing at this stage, I already outlined what I do in this hobby. From my point of view, the best thing I can do is make as sure as I can that my contributions are positive. I didn't think that was worth a "gently caress you." If other members of my gaming community (i.e. this board) think there's other things I should do, then tell me, I guess. If there's something in my games that can be improved, tell me! I like to think I've gotten a lot better over the years w/r/t casual and ignorant hate(?), and I give a bunch of credit to this forum for doing it, actually. It's hard to go back and read one of my favorite games I ever played in because of some of the words being used in it. I guess I feel like the issue here is that it seemed like someone who wants people to play better games and run better games and got told to gently caress off, that that's not good enough, or something? Some of you engage with Zak S et al because of the circles, professional and social that you work in. That's not "poking the poo poo" or whatever, that's a great reason to actively ostracize him and point out his failings and all. I don't. I'm poking the poo poo if I show up and start tearing him a new rear end in a top hat or whatever, right? That doesn't make sense to me. If I should be going aggro here, rally me to the cause; don't tell me to gently caress off for not already doing so. Make me want to help you. Also - I want to be very clear I'm not telling you how to run your own life or social campaign or whatever, I'm just telling you how you should interact with me if you want me to be an ally in whatever cause you choose to champion. I like this place, and you guys (in general); there's a reason I don't participate in any other gaming forums.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2014 02:30
|
|
|
gently caress me it's like 'ally' bingo up in here.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2014 02:35
|
|
|
Captain Foo posted:I didn't intend to say people shouldn't speak out, not at all. What I was trying to get across is that for some people, grassy gnoll's advice is good advice; I'm one of them. Captain Foo there are a lot of things I've seen you post that are hilarious but you of all people making a "you have to win me over"/"your tone is too hostile" argument is probably the funniest of them all. e: Like don't even take this as dismissive this is genuinely, deeply funny.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2014 02:39
|
|
|
I'm just some dumb schmuck teaching English in Korea, so the best I can do right now is generally talk to people I know about the problems and explain why I'm not going to be supporting WotC. I've emailed off to the CUSTSERV thing and tried contacting Mearls with no response back. When I get back to the States my general plan is to try to get as many cool people as I know into the hobby. But here's the thing, I'm kinda nervous about doing that, because I actually am worried they'll go online to talk about things and become victims! That's what a chilling effect is. It's why Zak S is such a problem - because his presence is one big "no, leave the hobby." I mean, he brags about it, literally brags that he supports social darwinism in the hobby. To the point where I worry and don't want to bring friends in because they'd be at risk and this is what WotC is supporting. So I email them, and I message them, and I refuse to support them, because they support this. And I try to get my friends to play a stupid elfgame or two anyways. That's the change I try to make because that's the ONLY change I can try to make. And all throughout this I get to listen to and look at chucklefucks go "Well Zak S can't be that bad he wrote those good articles!" Or "Show up proof. No more proof. No more proof. No more proof." Or "Well it's harassment so just call the police and that's it, if he's still around clearly he didn't harass anyone." Or any number of other bullshit excuses nerdy=rear end motherfuckers use to dismiss any criticism of the game that could possibly exist. poo poo, I had one guy say that I, Professor Cirno, was trying to slander Next through Zak S because I was such an overbearing Paizo fanboy.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2014 02:39
|
|
|
I wasn't prepared enough and now I am drowning in a Steve Jackson sea Someone post your best GURPS Character creation tips since the GURPS thread is a ghost.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2014 02:44
|
|
|
ProfessorCirno posted:poo poo, I had one guy say that I, Professor Cirno, was trying to slander Next through Zak S because I was such an overbearing Paizo fanboy. I guess the best you can do is basically what you've been doing - find new people, get them into the hobby, drop a couple of names of people you should avoid as little by-the-ways. Godspeed, Prof.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2014 02:47
|
|
|
So I'm just curious, but are these guys thanked in all the 5e books, or even the Core book? I know those toolbags are in the helper .pdf, but maybe they just "advised" that short rules .doc? Anyone been in contact with WotC about this?
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2014 02:47
|
|
|
Who was the person being threatened about coming to Gen-Con again? This seems relevant to this discussion (though somehow I doubt either of the problem children being discussed would deign to actually come to a convention unless treated as an Important Person).
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2014 02:57
|
|
|
Mormon Star Wars posted:I wasn't prepared enough and now I am drowning in a Steve Jackson sea There is an official GURPS Character Builder and an unofficial GURPS Character Assistant and both are pretty good. No wait, assistant is the official builder. I thought there used to be an unofficial one too. http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/characterassistant/ And I now realize I read that completely wrong and you want tips for making a character. So thats my tip. Use that thing. VVVV GCS! Thats the one I was thinking of. Dagon fucked around with this message at 04:30 on Jul 7, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2014 03:35
|
|
|
Dagon posted:No wait, assistant is the official builder. I thought there used to be an unofficial one too. http://sourceforge.net/projects/gcs-java/
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2014 03:51
|
|
|
Rulebook Heavily posted:Captain Foo there are a lot of things I've seen you post that are hilarious but you of all people making a "you have to win me over"/"your tone is too hostile" argument is probably the funniest of them all. My point was you don't have to do anything, I'm just letting you know how to engage me on serious issues if you'd like actual constructive discussion. If you don't want to engage me that way, cool 
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2014 04:02
|
|
|
And I say unto thee: Engage thyself with yon Stairmaster, knave! -Muscle Wizard LARP, 
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2014 04:29
|
|
|
Trollhawke posted:You know if I wasn't busy laughing my rear end off at the idea of you being a Paizo fanboy I'd express my genuine concerns and sympathies. Which I do - it's hard to try and fight for a cause when one side has no interest in listening regardless. I mean, here's the thing. Quarex posted:Who was the person being threatened about coming to Gen-Con again? This seems relevant to this discussion (though somehow I doubt either of the problem children being discussed would deign to actually come to a convention unless treated as an Important Person). I have it easy. I am at best arguing with people who think my friends deserve to be unsafe in the hobby for no reason other then admitting there is a problem would break their childish view of the hobby. Like, that's pretty lovely. And that's still getting it off easy.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2014 04:50
|
|
|
Error 404 posted:Muscle Wizard I thought we decided not to do this
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2014 04:52
|
|
|
I meant like in terms of what makes a good gurps character, traps to look out for, skills that are more important than they seem, etc. This will be for a gurps fantasy game.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2014 04:56
|
|
|
Error 404 posted:And I say unto thee: You kinda hosed up this haiku, friend.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2014 04:57
|
|
|
the only good gurps character is a gurps character you didn't bother to make
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2014 04:59
|
|
ProfessorCirno posted:I am at best arguing with people who think my friends deserve to be unsafe in the hobby for no reason other then admitting there is a problem would break their childish view of the hobby. Like, that's pretty lovely. And that's still getting it off easy. The thing is, the type of people you argue with almost always enjoy being insulted, and not in a masochistic kind of way. Years of sticking to a certain world view despite being made fun of for having it has made them somehow rationalize the insults as admissions of defeat. I don't know how it happens, but this is why they'll always come around for more. Best you can do is just get them banned or some poo poo.
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2014 05:14
|
|
|
By request, reposting Mearls:quote:Hey all - there are like four accounts with my name stuck to them, so referring to my name doesn't ping me.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2014 06:52
|
|
|
Captain Foo posted:Wait NM elfgames are never cool I thought we had fun playing octane Foo why you gotta hurt me like that?
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2014 06:54
|
|
|
That would be perilously close to a reasonable early response if he hadn't stuck the "but you see them being reprehensible assholes is part of the plan" in the middle there.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2014 07:17
|
|
|
we wanted people who would be blunt about critiquing our system so we went to some of the biggest shitheads in the community
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2014 07:26
|
|
|
Look guys we are giving blunt criticism about the guys bluntly criticising Next. It all falls under the umbrella of their paradigm.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2014 07:33
|
|
|
We need people to rip apart the system and point out all it's flaws. What do you mean your playtest found problems. No more online playtests allowed for anyone.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2014 08:25
|
|
|
Destrado posted:That would be perilously close to a reasonable early response if he hadn't stuck the "but you see them being reprehensible assholes is part of the plan" in the middle there. That point 2 is 100% bullshit. a) 'Brutality' is not a prerequisite for thorough system analysis; and b) There are plenty of talented game designers out there who can analyse and dismantle your work without also being toxic shitlords. But Wizards chose those two. I suspect, as someone pointed out upthread, it was just a way of simultaneously buying off two of their biggest potential critics and getting their fanbases on-board in the process. It's not a choice I think they should just get away with. Actually, while I'm getting this off my chest: Point 1 is disingenuous bullshit as well. The problem isn't specifically that Pundit and Zak are homophobic or discriminatory - that's just a confusion that's sprung up from somewhere - it's that they're awful. Both of them claim that Mearls reads and is a fan of their blogs, so either someone's telling fibs as part of some PR exercise or he knew drat well what they were like and what sort of discussion they bring to the table when he hired them.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2014 09:05
|
|
|
Mormon Star Wars posted:I meant like in terms of what makes a good gurps character, traps to look out for, skills that are more important than they seem, etc. The only trap in GURPS itself is that the default Magic rules are terrible - all the spells are copied from 3e and barely changed - so you should build something from the pieces in Thaumatology and use that instead, it'll be more satisfying and will better reflect the game world.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2014 09:34
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 17:32 |
|
|
I thought Traveller might be a cool RPG to try to read up on since it was one of the earlier Sci-Fi RPGs. I then read through some of the character creation rules... It looks like it would take a full game session just to create a single character.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2014 13:54
|
|
