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Wow I didn't expect actual delivery there PriorMarcus. Thanks. That sounds.... marginally better than everything about "Into the Dalek" (why do Dalek episodes seem to hinge on being really good or really sucking?), but still pretty ghastly and creatively bankrupt. The whole Missy thing sounds absolutely dire.
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Jul 8, 2014 00:55
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I skimmed Listen because it just read like every other gimmicky, catch-phrase sensative villain from Moffat and Robots of Sherwood is so loving cringey that I couldn't finish. I jumped to the end scene and saw some poo poo about how both Robin Hood and the Doctor are just stories in the end and maybe we all are and blah, loving blah. My major take away from every script, even the ones not written by Moffat is that ideas are being recycled now more than ever. It doesn't feel new or fresh, in fact some much of it is just a loving retread of past glories, down to entire lines being reused that it has to be deliberate. The darker tone that Capaldi brings isn't actually interesting, it's just doubling down on the misogyny and a carelessness towards death that doesn't seem right. It is, in ever way, poo poo. Also Capaldi straight up admits that if he was still Smith he would gently caress the poo poo out of Clara. The Doctor: I'm not your boyfriend. Clara: I never thought you were. The Doctor: Yes you did. And maybe I wanted to be.
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Jul 8, 2014 00:59
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I can almost forgive that because I'm not of the mind that the Doctor should be sexless and I have an irrational crush on Jenna Coleman (and hate Robb Stark for being with her).... but yeah everything you're describing just breathes the stale air of a lack of creative juices. Welp, looks like it's going to be a grim year fellas. But hey, no mid-season break so at least we get the medicine all at once.
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Jul 8, 2014 01:05
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mind the walrus posted:I can almost forgive that because I'm not of the mind that the Doctor should be sexless and I have an irrational crush on Jenna Coleman (and hate Robb Stark for being with her).... I tried to be as open minded as possible with it being a new Doctor but keep in mind I've disliked Moffat's direction for a long while now. Some people will loving love these episodes and that's good for them. Me? I think I'll continue to watch Doctor Who for the few moments I'll enjoy despite everything else and just wait for the next show runner in the meantime.
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Jul 8, 2014 01:09
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ugh
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Jul 8, 2014 01:13
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Oh exactly. Rule #1 about Who of course. There will be plenty of adherents who can't get enough of spoon-fighting and flesh-masks and more hackneyed shipping drama. I was on-board with Moffat for a long time. Like I said I even really liked the back half of series 7. These plot details however, really do tell me that Moffat risks being even worst than RTD was at his nadirs.
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Jul 8, 2014 01:13
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Exactly. And as if to prove your point I'll point out that I mostly loved RTD from beginning to end, with the massive exceptions of certain episodes like Planet of the Dead.
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Jul 8, 2014 01:15
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At least Capaldi himself should be an interesting presence. After all they have yet to cast a bad actor to play the Doctor.
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Jul 8, 2014 01:17
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I'm still massively excited to see Capaldi as the Doctor. He's going to be great. The material he's given not so much, but if there's any actor capable of polishing a turd it's him. I do feel that Smith was ultimately let down by the direction his Doctor went in. He's the best actor to play the Doctor so far and was given very little, but he sold the poo poo out of stuff like Handles when he got the chance. Also, I'm still interested in finding out the real reason why he went from being adament that he was staying to announcing his departure in less than a month. That plus the rapid conclusion to all of Eleven's storyline makes me think something changed behind the scenes. I suspect it was that he was happy to do another year but not, due to the late year transmission, another two, but I'd like something more juicy to enjoy if it's out there.
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Jul 8, 2014 01:22
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What I'm seeing in the thread is taking me to that point. I'll still watch, but I'm agreeing with everyone else that a change in the show's direction would be good. More wacky monkeycheese Doctor for the sake of wacky monkeycheese Doctor, more "The Doctor doesn't need romantic entanglements (but we're going to tease shipping him anyway)", more Mysteries That Will Never Fully Be Explained. It makes much more sense for River Song to be the one giving Clara the Doctor's number in Bells of St. John than some "evil" River we've never met. poo poo, we already had an evil River and she was wasted in the space of one episode (Let's Kill Hitler). I do want to see Capaldi as the Doctor, though. When I read the following bit, I instantly pictured him in the scene and not Matt Smith. I take that as one good sign. your evil twin posted:THE DOCTOR
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Jul 8, 2014 01:31
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The way I see it, all of these scripts feel incredible gimmicky. There are a lot of ideas, but almost none is actually used to its full potential, instead they are being discarded shortly after they served their service of showing us just how weird the Doctor is. The Tardis stuck in a T-Rex - that could be an episode of its own. T-Rex in London - That could be an episode of its own. Dinosaurs were apparently intelligent and could speak - That could be an episode of its own. Newly generated Doctor has to remember who he is in Victorian London with a Salurian private detective - That could be an episode of its own. Clockwork robots who steal peoples faces - That could be an episode of its own. That almost sounds like a classic episode. You could really ramp up the paranoia with this one. But because it is all cramped in to one episode, almost none of it gets any kind of development done. I pretty much rolled my eyes when the Doctor started crying over the dad dinosaur, because it is so typically Moffat, having this big, emotional moment with minimal buildup. After only 10 minutes screentime, I genuinely don't care about some dead dinosaur. It just comes of as silly when the Doctor bawls about some wild animal. when the hell did he become Space Jesus?
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Jul 8, 2014 01:36
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PriorMarcus posted:I'm still massively excited to see Capaldi as the Doctor. He's going to be great. The material he's given not so much, but if there's any actor capable of polishing a turd it's him. All good points. I can't really say much else other than "what he said." Kevos Setzer posted:I do want to see Capaldi as the Doctor, though. When I read the following bit, I instantly pictured him in the scene and not Matt Smith. I take that as one good sign. I'll agree with this. I just hope that we're not going to end up cherry-picking Capaldi's good line deliveries out of the episodes as our only recourse against poor plotting and recycled material.
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Jul 8, 2014 01:37
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Jesus does this all sound dire. Think I'll take a powder on this series, thanks
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Jul 8, 2014 02:56
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Petition to change thread title to "Doctor Who: Now made out of 90% recycled materials."
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Jul 8, 2014 03:02
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How in the gently caress does shooting a solid gold arrow into the engine of a ship as it's flying away contribute just enough gold to limp it into orbit and then explode? Even for a show with a shapeshifting old man flying around in a wooden box, this is just too much for me. It doesn't even make any sense within the context of the script.
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Jul 8, 2014 04:01
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Yeah the gold arrow thing was bullshit. Especially since I thought earlier in the script it was established the gold was being used to repair/replace circuit boards, it's not like the ship was actually fuelled by gold. I'd like to point out that PriorMarcus has misquoted a few things and made them seem a bit worse than they actually are. For instance, in the Dalek episode, the Dalek doesn't simply repeat the "You would make a good Dalek" line: ------------------------ THE DOCTOR Of course you must. You've got unfinished work. Haven't you? BATTERED DALEK Victory is yours. But it does not please you. THE DOCTOR You looked inside me and you saw hatred. That's not a victory. Victory would've been a good Dalek. BATTERED DALEK I am not a good Dalek. You are a good Dalek. ------------------------ Back in the Christopher Eccleston Dalek episode, "you would make a good Dalek" meant the Doctor would be an excellent genocidal maniac. But in this episode, they are talking about good and evil. The Doctor hoped to make a Dalek that was actually GOOD and didn't want to destroy. Yes, they are intentionally doing a callback to an older episode, but it isn't the same line. It's a slightly altered version of the line with a different meaning. As for the boyfriend bit... ----------------------- THE DOCTOR I'm the Doctor. I have lived for over 2000 years and not all of them were good. I have made many mistakes, and it's about time I did something about that. Starting right now. Clara, I am not your boyfriend. CLARA I never thought you were. THE DOCTOR I never said it was your mistake. A sad smile. That was almost a confession. ----------------------- So you're right about Capaldi admitting that he fancied Clara when he was Matt Smith. But apparently she didn't think of him that way. And it doesn't seem like new character Danny and the Doctor are competing to be her boyfriend; Danny is the boyfriend, the Doctor is something else.
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Jul 8, 2014 05:00
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If the last four years or so has told us anything, it's that Steven Moffat simply isn't the show runner that Doctor Who deserves. Which is all rather perplexing, because Sherlock illustrates he can take charge of a show without running it into the ground (although some would argue that's been largely due to the involvement of Mark Gatiss more than anything else), he wrote some of the best episodes of the RTD era, and he's brought the likes of Neil Gaiman and Richard Curtis into the fold. (For the record, I think Richard Curtis would actually make an awesome show runner, perhaps even more so than Mark Gatiss, but don't know if he'd want to give up writing/directing feature films for five years or so to dedicate his time to the show.) And yet the show's also more popular now than it's ever been before, and is doing especially well in the overseas markets, so it stands to reason we're just going to get more of the same in perpetuity until something breaks and the BBC decide it's no longer cost effective. Now, more than ever, is the time Doctor Who needs to be a bit bolder and more experimental with the stories it tells. Nothing too outlandish, obviously, but it needs to take more risks every now and then instead of playing it safe and playing to the lowest common denominator every goddamn week, because it's never going to get another chance at this rate. And that's why I feel getting Moffat on board for another season may not be the smartest move right now, regardless of what Moffat has planned.
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Jul 8, 2014 05:17
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In a way I feel kind of sad because Moffat's first year was the most I've enjoyed Doctor Who ever, and every year since has just been an increasingly disappointing waste of good ideas. But in another way some of this shot sounds like such a hilarious train wreck I can't wait to watch it.
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Jul 8, 2014 05:49
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Sonance posted:because Sherlock illustrates he can take charge of a show without running it into the ground The first and last episodes of the most recent series would prove otherwise.
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Jul 8, 2014 06:02
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2house2fly posted:In a way I feel kind of sad because Moffat's first year was the most I've enjoyed Doctor Who ever, and every year since has just been an increasingly disappointing waste of good ideas. But in another way some of this shot sounds like such a hilarious train wreck I can't wait to watch it. Yeah, series five is probably my favorite season of Doctor Who. At least tied with Tom Baker's first season. Both have bad moments ("Robot" and the Silurian two parter are both pretty dull), but overall, both seasons are about as good as it gets. Pertwee's first year is up there too.
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Jul 8, 2014 06:27
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There was a now-removed photo from filming of the finale of Danny Pink with a Cyberman body.
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Jul 8, 2014 08:36
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Sonance posted:Which is all rather perplexing, because Sherlock illustrates he can take charge of a show without running it into the ground [...] instead of playing it safe and playing to the lowest common denominator every goddamn week Not seen Sherlock season 3 yet, I take it?
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Jul 8, 2014 10:14
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Without wanting to take the nerdy 'Everything after Season X didn't happen' to an extreme, I like to think of Sherlock's first episode as a one-off special - it has both a decent mystery and good characterisation. The rest is mediocre to poo poo in comparison.
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Jul 8, 2014 10:31
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Everyone in the normal thread is being very naive with their understanding of how much a script can change once it reaches the screen. Sure, a performance can be amazing, but it won't save the fact that it's the Doctor flirting with a T-Rex or Jenny sat around naked for no reason. Sure, we don't know what the new TARDIS looks like while we're reading but we know exactly what half of the first episode will look like because we've seen Clara hanging out with the Paternoster Gang before, and we've seen the Doctor and a few other people miniaturized and running around dodgy sets before. Etc. I think they have bought into the idea of it being very different, and its not at all.
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Jul 8, 2014 13:41
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The only one that really has interested me from reading the scripts was the bank heist episode. I hope the unreleased episodes will be a lot better.
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Jul 8, 2014 13:44
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PriorMarcus posted:Everyone in the normal thread is being very naive with their understanding of how much a script can change once it reaches the screen. Sure, a performance can be amazing, but it won't save the fact that it's the Doctor flirting with a T-Rex or Jenny sat around naked for no reason. I saw this on the Doctor Who subreddit too. People are being really optimistic about the whole thing and it comes across as naive as we probably come across cynical. It is really a goddamn shame that the most I'm gathering from these leaks is that the "new direction" and "darkness" the show is taking is, at most, a sense of grim violence and not actually a change in how we present/view the Doctor and his adventures the way RTD-to-Moffat initially was.
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Jul 8, 2014 14:08
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What do people mean when they say it sounds like fanfiction? like, random humour and thin characters?
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Jul 8, 2014 14:27
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I've just accepted this is the thread for people who dislike the show and just want the spoiler information as soon as possible to know if it's worth the time to invest in it, or to lessen the blow of seeing the final product. There are people who genuinely like it in the other thread, and that's cool too, but the dissenting opinions don't mesh too well at times.
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Jul 8, 2014 14:42
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Harlock posted:I've just accepted this is the thread for people who dislike the show and just want the spoiler information as soon as possible to know if it's worth the time to invest in it, or to lessen the blow of seeing the final product. There are people who genuinely like it in the other thread, and that's cool too, but the dissenting opinions don't mesh too well at times. I want to like the show, I want to like series 8, but the scripts do not instill me with confidence.
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Jul 8, 2014 14:52
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wins.
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PassTheRemote posted:I want to like the show, I want to like series 8, but the scripts do not instill me with confidence. I don't see how you can form an opinion just by reading, you don't know how the actors will portray the characters in the episodes. It's best to wait for the episodes to air and then form an opinion.
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Jul 8, 2014 15:22
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PassTheRemote posted:I want to like the show, I want to like series 8, but the scripts do not instill me with confidence. It's funny. The feeling I walked away with from reading the scripts was that they were a substantial step up from what we usually get (minus a few iffy parts in RoS). Not earth shatteringly brilliant, but definitely an upward slope. Clara seems to finally be getting some actual characterization, as opposed to the dire blank slate she was last season. Moffat seems to know better what he wants 12's and Clara's relationship to be, and she's coming across as the "controlling, ego-centric" doofus that they told instead of showed of previously, the worst case being that one sentence truth-field character development in Time of the Doctor. The Doctor's characterization has changed. Sure, he's still jumpy and weird and says really odd things, but he's definitely not the weepy, pseudo-boyfriend of the last two incarnations. This comes across stronger in Moffat's two scripts. Thompson and Gatiss seem to be writing for "generic Doctor" still, but I'll give Capaldi the confidence that he can make it his own. Also, am I the only one really intrigued by Missy and the whole Paradise bit? I mean, it's kinda obvious who she is, but I'm kinda looking forward to seeing how they'll play it out. I dunno, I really did not enjoy series 7. It was the definition of a show "just existing", without having much to say. Hell, I even give series 6 some credit for at least trying to do something different, despite the trainwreck execution. From these scripts, I'm cautiously optimistic. I can see them turning into something really cool, and the arc they set up seems to be something not completely retarded. *jinxes entire season, turns out to be terrible, show canceled*
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Jul 8, 2014 15:24
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bpc908 posted:I don't see how you can form an opinion just by reading, you don't know how the actors will portray the characters in the episodes. It's best to wait for the episodes to air and then form an opinion. If you're working with ideas you don't find engaging or interesting or even original by the show's standards there's really only so much staging, acting, and direction can do.
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Jul 8, 2014 15:28
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This reminds me, was it this thread or the other one which gave us the term "pessimism shaming" in the run-up to the 50th anniversary? I don't think things have gone quite that far just yet. 
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Jul 8, 2014 15:59
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Harlock posted:There are people who genuinely like it in the other thread There are people who genuinely like it in this thread too (myself among them), which is probably why they're so disappointed. You can criticize a poo poo script and still be a fan of the show.
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Jul 8, 2014 16:28
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I'm cautiously optimistic about where the show's going and how Moffat is writing it, but I still enjoy the show, will still be there next month to watch. And I'll probably enjoy it too, it's fine to be critical, but seeing the scripts played out will definitely be different, I'm positive Capaldi will be excellent and the show is still very much Doctor Who, but seeing these Moffat patterns just makes me cautious.
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Jul 8, 2014 16:35
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bpc908 posted:I don't see how you can form an opinion just by reading, you don't know how the actors will portray the characters in the episodes. It's best to wait for the episodes to air and then form an opinion. have you read the scripts? they're a mess from the ground up. no amount of decent emoting from Capaldi or good production values are gonna fix these festering turds.
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Jul 8, 2014 18:45
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Bown posted:have you read the scripts? they're a mess from the ground up. no amount of decent emoting from Capaldi or good production values are gonna fix these festering turds. I love it when our opinions align.
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Jul 8, 2014 18:52
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bpc908 posted:I don't see how you can form an opinion just by reading, you don't know how the actors will portray the characters in the episodes. It's best to wait for the episodes to air and then form an opinion. Because if the script is a piece of poo poo then all you can hope for is the actors to be able to polish the poo poo so you won't notice as much. In the end, though, it's still a piece of poo poo. This is NOT in reference to any series 8 scripts, for the record-I have not personally read them. This is just how scripts work. If you have terrible writing, you have a terrible show. Actors can only do so much.
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Jul 8, 2014 19:02
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Burkion posted:Because if the script is a piece of poo poo then all you can hope for is the actors to be able to polish the poo poo so you won't notice as much. For instance, half of Tennant's episodes! Okay, maybe not that many, but you get my point.
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Jul 8, 2014 19:57
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Burkion posted:Because if the script is a piece of poo poo then all you can hope for is the actors to be able to polish the poo poo so you won't notice as much. Exactly this. I forget the exact saying, but there's an old Hollywood saying that goes something like "Many a bad movie has been made from a good script, but there's never been a good movie made from a bad script." I have not read the scripts myself either, but based on A)the excerpts that have been posted here thus far, and B)overall disappointment with Moffat's handling of the show, I feel confident in saying that they're pretty much going to be absolute cack.
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Jul 8, 2014 20:27
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