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A_Raving_Loon posted:I wrote up a summary of how Shaping Combat works. (It's ST pretending to be FATE) Thanks! A few people pointed me towards "Luna's Guide to Surviving Creation" but that seems to have disappeared. I'm unlikely to do much shaping combat, but it might come up or someone might try to sass me while in my Chancel and then it's on.
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Jul 8, 2014 14:34
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Wow they really did not have a plan for someone violating the NDA involving their highly anticipated product! Nor, apparently, did they have a reason to hold a broad play test - if it was for PR they wouldn't cancel it, if it was for feedback they made clear they aren't interested in it! How terribly amusing.
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Jul 8, 2014 15:47
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I-I-I don't even want your playtest feedback, you baka! I just made too many packets!
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Jul 8, 2014 16:51
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NIV3K posted:Just got word last night that the expanded playtesting has ended prematurely. We were told that our contributions weren't more valuable than those of the small group they were using before to playtest. Therefore all further material will only go to said group and the rest of us are out in the cold. Yeah, that... ugh. My faith, it's dwindling again. why
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Jul 8, 2014 16:52
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And before Stallion Cabana comes in on his high you know what I can't even finish that sentence In any event, even if NIV3K's just kidding or whatever, that's another thing that I could absolutely believe the Ex3 team did just for spite-funsies.
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Jul 8, 2014 16:56
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:And before Stallion Cabana comes in on his high you know what I can't even finish that sentence Hell no, I'm mad the playtest was canceled too. I spent a lot of time telling them why stuff was broken and the end result being 'playtest is over and you can't look at the next set of stuff' pisses me off. Stallion Cabana fucked around with this message at 17:11 on Jul 8, 2014 |
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Jul 8, 2014 17:07
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Thanqol posted:This is magical. I'm not even mad about Exalted any more, this is entertaining enough already. Yeah this whole saga is just absolutely hilarious.
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Jul 8, 2014 17:07
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I don't even like crowdsourcing poo poo and think most of you guys are idiots, but like arbitrarily cancelling playtesting and retreating deeper into your shell when you're mainly getting positive feedback on illegally leaked rules doesn't seem smart, to me. But what do I know, I think barbarian is a stupid concept.
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Jul 8, 2014 17:31
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The timing is weird on this because you would think that playtesting would be wrapping up normally around this time anyways . Time to see what shakes out .
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Jul 8, 2014 18:05
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Stephenls, please, for the love of all that is good and holy, do everything you can to convince the rest of the devs that this is an incredibly counterproductive thing to do. Retreating into an echo chamber will not make the game better. 
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Jul 8, 2014 18:17
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The PR stuff is baffling, I finally got a look at the rules and there is actually a lot to be excited for! If you had told me at the start of this that the 3E team was going to be progressive enough to have alternate rules for abstracted ammo, a really neat combat pacing mechanic that discourages blasting people round 1, abstracted ranges, generalized weapon types, expanded caste ability sets and all the other good stuff I would have laughed my rear end off at you. Are there problems? god yes, Way too many charms, too much multi-attack stuff sneaking it's way in, Martial Arts, BP/EXP divide, Martial Arts, etc. but there are tons of stuff to be excited about. If some of the troublesome stuff was cleaned up I might actually buy this!
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Jul 8, 2014 19:20
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Ferrinus posted:Scanning the Onyx Path forums has allowed to learn that you are officially not allowed to discuss the contents of the leak on the Exalted forum itself. That must make for a really healthy and cool posting environment. If it was my product I might have done things differently, but it is not.
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Jul 8, 2014 19:26
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Lioness posted:That was a mod call because rule 8 of the Onyx Path forums is "don’t endorse or discuss illegal activities" and that's difficult not to do that when the subject up for discussion is illegally distributed playtest documents. You're not going to have a "cool and positive posting environment" if some people are required to break the rules in order to participate in the main discussion. I'm pretty sure it's not illegal for me to download and read the leaked playtest. Otherwise, my many posting enemies would be calling the authorities down on me even n- hang on, someone's at the door-
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Jul 8, 2014 19:44
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Lioness posted:That was a mod call because rule 8 of the Onyx Path forums is "don’t endorse or discuss illegal activities" and that's difficult not to do that when the subject up for discussion is illegally distributed playtest documents. You're not going to have a "cool and positive posting environment" if some people are required to break the rules in order to participate in the main discussion. What a strange coincidence that the people in charge of clamping down on discussion and the people who are cutting off playtesting are one and the same. Oh well, rules are rules, unfortunate that it played out this way but what are you going to do.
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Jul 8, 2014 19:51
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I paid two hundred dollars for the drat thing (which I am regretting) and I'm feeling like a mushroom here, kept in the dark and fed horseshit. People seem to like what they're doing, for Christ's sake, if not without some caveats - if anything this is good PR because it's making it look like Sex Ghost Fiesta Prana was less of a key design decision. Who the hell makes these business decisions, anyway?
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Jul 8, 2014 20:25
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Ferrinus posted:I'm pretty sure it's not illegal for me to download and read the leaked playtest. Otherwise, my many posting enemies would be calling the authorities down on me even n- hang on, someone's at the door- Well it is, strictly speaking, a violation of copyright since you're pirating their material. It's just unenforceable from a practical standpoint.
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Jul 8, 2014 20:49
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:Well it is, strictly speaking, a violation of copyright since you're pirating their material. It's just unenforceable from a practical standpoint. Even if there's no copyright or other disclaimer in the file itself, which isn't otherwise for sale or something, and even if I haven't signed any kind of NDA? Note I'm just talking about finding and reading it here, not distributing it.
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Jul 8, 2014 20:55
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Ferrinus posted:Even if there's no copyright or other disclaimer in the file itself, which isn't otherwise for sale or something, and even if I haven't signed any kind of NDA? Note I'm just talking about finding and reading it here, not distributing it. There doesn't have to be. Any material that's written down in concrete form is copyrighted without the need to say so or register it anywhere. It's not surprising that most forums aren't permitting discussion, becuase it they did it would create a months-long disparity between people who had read it and the people who didn't want to go against the writers' request and no longer knew what anybody was talking about.
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Jul 8, 2014 21:00
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YES WRITERS, I PLEDGE MYSELF TO THY REQUEST, I SHALL TURNETH AWAY MINE EYES FROM THE VILE LEAK LEST I BE CORRUPTED
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Jul 8, 2014 21:03
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Rand Brittain posted:There doesn't have to be. Any material that's written down in concrete form is copyrighted without the need to say so or register it anywhere. Instead what you end up with is a months-long disparity between people who have all read it and can't admit to it, and the people who are better at pretending they haven't so they can suck up to the mods (who are, in a strange coincidence, also the authors).
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Jul 8, 2014 21:08
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Rand Brittain posted:There doesn't have to be. Any material that's written down in concrete form is copyrighted without the need to say so or register it anywhere. It's surprising to us that any forum except the OPP official boards aren't permitting discussion, because their walled garden strategy for engaging (or not engaging, I should say) with the playerbase is frankly idiotic. This leak is the best PR they've had. Ever. I am actually excited about Exalted 3E again for the first time since Abyssalgate. They have nothing to lose because they already have our money and people who are determined to see it for free are just gonna pirate the book anyway - if anything, maintaining a measure of goodwill with the consumer base is vital to staying afloat in the TTRPG industry because that goodwill is really the only thing that prevents piracy. We're not debating the copyright issues or information gaps or whatever because clearly that's their legal prerogative. We're calling their approach loving stupid, because it is.
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Jul 8, 2014 21:11
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MiltonSlavemasta posted:YES WRITERS, I PLEDGE MYSELF TO THY REQUEST, I SHALL TURNETH AWAY MINE EYES FROM THE VILE LEAK LEST I BE CORRUPTED It's not surprising that a lot of people ignore the request! But it also isn't surprising that a lot of fans accede to it.
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Jul 8, 2014 21:17
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Thesaurasaurus posted:It's surprising to us that any forum except the OPP official boards aren't permitting discussion, because their walled garden strategy for engaging (or not engaging, I should say) with the playerbase is frankly idiotic. This leak is the best PR they've had. Ever. I am actually excited about Exalted 3E again for the first time since Abyssalgate. They have nothing to lose because they already have our money and people who are determined to see it for free are just gonna pirate the book anyway - if anything, maintaining a measure of goodwill with the consumer base is vital to staying afloat in the TTRPG industry because that goodwill is really the only thing that prevents piracy.
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Jul 8, 2014 21:18
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:Also, that leak was the first and probably last evidence anyone's seen that Exalted Third Edition may ever be a product that actually exists and not an empty box under the Christmas tree that you've been forbidden to even dare shaking. This is basically my position. I think it's both arrogant and unethical to keep virtually your entire product under wraps when (A) people have paid you for delivery, and (B) you are very late in delivering. Also, while leaking, rehosting, or reproducing the leaked material is indeed illegal copyright infringement, I do not think it is illegal to read the leak under any reasonable interpretation of US law.
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Jul 8, 2014 23:02
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Thesaurasaurus posted:It's surprising to us that any forum except the OPP official boards aren't permitting discussion, because their walled garden strategy for engaging (or not engaging, I should say) with the playerbase is frankly idiotic. This leak is the best PR they've had. Ever. I am actually excited about Exalted 3E again for the first time since Abyssalgate. They have nothing to lose because they already have our money and people who are determined to see it for free are just gonna pirate the book anyway - if anything, maintaining a measure of goodwill with the consumer base is vital to staying afloat in the TTRPG industry because that goodwill is really the only thing that prevents piracy.
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Jul 8, 2014 23:05
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Nessus posted:Is there any way to claw back money from KS, honestly? I'm guessing unfortunately not. Kickstarter kind of wash their hands of the whole thing once the drive for funds is over. They do require Creator's to honor the terms of their pledge or refund the money but they're very hands off about actually making anyone do that. You can apparently use the Kickstarter terms of use to go about getting a refund directly from Onyx Path but gently caress knows how that works. I guess you E-mail Onyx path and ask for a refund, citing that they're taking loving ages and don't have a lot to show for it so you've lost faith they're able to deliver.
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Jul 8, 2014 23:49
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Nessus posted:Is there any way to claw back money from KS, honestly? I'm guessing unfortunately not.
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Jul 9, 2014 01:09
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This is discussion is going in circles. How do people feel about Supernal abilities? Right now I think they're a cool idea that has a 90% chance of not working well in practice due to them leading to CharOp shenanigans. Do people agree? Would Supernal only meaning (Essence+1) for prereqs in the chosen ability be better?
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Jul 9, 2014 01:13
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RiotGearEpsilon posted:Don't embarrass yourself. You've got an entire leaked alpha worth of evidence of good faith attempt to produce Exalted 3e. Demanding a refund under the pretense that they've produced no evidence of product would be farcical.  If I understand things right, if I'm aware of the leaked material and have participated in discussions about it, then I have no standing to imply there's been no good faith effort, but I also have participated in the breach of an NDA and other such matters. On the other hand, if I'm unaware of the leak beyond the mere fact of "some playtest materials were leaked," and have behaved well and not pursued information on that leak, I have no reason to expect a completed game, because there has been very little evidence along the way. Nessus fucked around with this message at 01:25 on Jul 9, 2014 |
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Jul 9, 2014 01:21
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MiltonSlavemasta posted:This is discussion is going in circles. I think the best way to do Supernal type things would be to make all caste abilities someone chose be able to be (Essence +1) for charm prereqs. Dawns are good at fighting, and naturally drawn to X abilities, this means they can get charms from all those abilities easier than a Twilight could. It'd keep the 'wow, that's pretty big' thing, make the castes more distinct, and would limit them from being able to grab essence 5 charms at the get go. Balance wise, though, you run into some of the castes having much better choices than others, and I can see how that might annoy some people.
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Jul 9, 2014 01:25
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MiltonSlavemasta posted:How do people feel about Supernal abilities? Right now I think they're a cool idea that has a 90% chance of not working well in practice due to them leading to CharOp shenanigans. Do people agree? Would Supernal only meaning (Essence+1) for prereqs in the chosen ability be better? I'm not sure charop-wise, but it seems like it would exacerbate the "how do you challenge the combat guy without squashing the non-combat guys" problem.
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Jul 9, 2014 01:30
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KittyEmpress posted:Balance wise, though, you run into some of the castes having much better choices than others, and I can see how that might annoy some people. I think the abilities ought to be generally equally worthwhile. They've done amazing work taking Lore from the Ultimate Loser Ability except for Crafters to having one of the most interesting charmsets, with some stuff even in need of a nerf. If Bureaucracy is crap compared to Dodge, well, make Bureaucracy more interesting. Larceny is baller as hell now. Obviously some abilities will be better in a fight, some will be better in a negotiation, etc., but by the same token you have the Dawns getting a lot of semi-redundant abilities they probably won't use all of, versus say Zeniths probably wanting to dip into everything they get. Roadie posted:I'm not sure charop-wise, but it seems like it would exacerbate the "how do you challenge the combat guy without squashing the non-combat guys" problem. This is part of my worry, along with the fact that I hate playing with or GMing for characters who don't make any investment in being able to do anything besides fight. Mainly I don't want to encourage people coming into games with 12 Melee Charms going up to E5 because that's how you make the strongest starting combatant.
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Jul 9, 2014 01:32
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MiltonSlavemasta posted:This is part of my worry, along with the fact that I hate playing with or GMing for characters who don't make any investment in being able to do anything besides fight. Mainly I don't want to encourage people coming into games with 12 Melee Charms going up to E5 because that's how you make the strongest starting combatant.
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Jul 9, 2014 01:38
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Supernal seems less of an issue to me if only because you get a set number of charms at char-gen and if someone buys nothing but melee charms why would you even accept that character into your game? Hand the guy his sheet back and tell him why he's screwing himself. Same as you would captain pacifist who has nothing to do during combat. (And there are non-punching things to do during combat, but if a player has NOTHING to contribute they need to be nudged in the right direction.) They weren't really kidding about the hour-glass model of charm tree power. Having a bunch of low essence charms in different abilities makes a much more powerful character than having only a few and some mid essence charms, which are basically just power extensions to the first tier. You want to establish basic competency in more than just combat or you're just going to warp the game because you can't do anything else. e: Another way to deal with Supernal is probably to make it BP and EXP only, and have Chargen adhere to essence limits. That way if they really want to buy all the melee charms they can't do it with just the initial buy in. e2: Seriously people, if someone hands you a sheet that is clearly a troll, you need to have the confidence to say no, and either help fix it if it was a newbie mistake or flip the guy off if he's doing it to be an rear end. mistaya fucked around with this message at 01:44 on Jul 9, 2014 |
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Jul 9, 2014 01:39
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The Supernal Ability mechanic is cool, but I'm not sure I like the pressure it gives you to specialize. If the final charm trees are appropriately gated and hourglass-shaped such that a dabbler can compete with a specialist (which I'm optimistic about, but which still technically remains to be seen) then letting the specialist bypass the major gating mechanic of those charm trees could throw that all out of whack. I'm especially skeptical of it given the explicit, stated intention to make, e.g., Martial Arts charms just not as good as other kinds of charms so they remain communicable across all the different splats. However they're also more than willing to staple "you can't cheat the Essence requirement for this charm even if it's in your Supernal Ability" clauses onto specific charms if they deem it necessary. In the illegal ghost playtest, for instance, the Celestial and Solar Circle Sorcery charms have that clause in them, presumably because the sorcery charms are really potent and unlock a lot of other character options that they don't want people to come out of the gate with. On balance I like them, but I could easily see being unhappy with the kind of play they encourage in the finished product. The Exalted developers are smart enough to head off any in-play issues at the pass, but they've also demonstrated a bunch of dumb, outmoded preferences and blind spots that suggest they could just as easily decide not to, on purpose.
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Jul 9, 2014 01:49
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I had this discussion with some pals already. Bottom line? When the social focused dude can say it's Thriller night and you have to actually have some Performance and Charisma to not have your Melee pool reduced to 2 dice, being that dude who invested 13 Charms into Melee makes you a dumbass, not a smart player. And you simply do not have the Charms to get more than, at best, one or two E2+ Charms at chargen even if you invest a considerable amount of resources into your Supernal ability. Being highly competent at your job is good. This does not mean making an EX2-style one trick pony is a good idea.
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Jul 9, 2014 01:50
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The more I think about it the more I think Supernal is a terrible idea. It's just more encouragement to be a one-trick pony and to diversify even less and now people will think of their character concepts within the head-space of 'Craft guy' or 'Sword guy'. This can be absolutely maddening in a two or three player game when you ask for characters and all three submit three character they really want to play, but all three are totally one-dimensional with their charms. It's reminiscent of DnD 4th's early non-AC defenses where you didn't get enough Ability points to spend so everyone had one (or sometimes even two) defenses that they would get hit with every time they got attacked on it. edit: If you had two to three supernal abilities (maybe one caste, one favored) and you got bonus supernal-only xp I'd be more okay with this. Ithle01 fucked around with this message at 02:43 on Jul 9, 2014 |
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Jul 9, 2014 02:40
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Supernal abilities feel like a kludge. As long as it's fairly fast to go from Essence 1 to Essence 2, I'd probably rather they didn't exist - it'd mean that you couldn't go all-in on some strategy or other and had no choice but to have a broad foundation of powers drawn from a variety of abilities. This'd both help with balance and make character generation less daunting because you only need to look at the Essence 1 charms in each ability. Also, one less exception to remember.
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Jul 9, 2014 02:49
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Supernal abilities interest me. I'm prone to char-op shenanigans myself, but it's clear that the charm tree are written with the Supernal capability in mind. I'm eager to see how it plays out. I have no idea how that'll be.
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Jul 9, 2014 03:46
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To be honest I would rather instead of the huge caste abilities categories that Exalts got to choose three Supernal abilities with at least one from a caste ability list. But I don't know if that would curb any of the abusive aspects of Supernal stuff. How are the charms structured to work with Supernal ability stuff? Mexcillent fucked around with this message at 03:59 on Jul 9, 2014 |
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Jul 9, 2014 03:56
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