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Pesky Splinter posted:All fictional people fall under some archetype, no matter how loosely. What those base archetypes are doesn't matter. More important is that the characters are consistant in their characterisation (which is what you're describing), and how they're utilised in the narrative structure. Well yeah, I agree to some extent. But as I said, if you define the word archetype in such a way that it applies to everything, it kinda becomes a meaningless word. I usually use the word to mean that it's a formula or pattern that appears often. By that reasoning, Ned in Game of Thrones (calm down everyone) is definitely not an archetype, because in most fiction, the guy who has been portrayed as the leading man would find a way to escape being killed.
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Jul 8, 2014 23:09
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Dude, the word 'archetype' being kind of meaningless is the point people are trying to make. The fact of the matter is that there's so much fiction out there that just about every possible concept has been explored. I can name lots of things where a character who's been portrayed as the leading man has died partway through the story. What matters isn't the base ideas, but the execution. What matters isn't the broad strokes, but the little details, the execution. I haven't watched Game of Thrones, but there have been times where the lead died partway through the story and it felt cheap or forced, and times where the lead died in a way that was meaningful and powerful.
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Jul 8, 2014 23:11
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I said come in! posted:Honestly I don't care if this game never comes out. It's the least interesting looking Final Fantasy ever. At least its going to have a good soundtrack. Yoko Shimomura can do no wrong.
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Jul 8, 2014 23:13
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The problem is the idea that archetypes apply to everything is implied by the term. Before anyone risks dragging the discussion back down into endless semantics, that's what archetypes are. At risk of drawing an assumption based on the pages of posts you've made, I'm going to assume you're a troper, Absoloote. Stop thinking like a troper. And stop thinking in terms of tropes. Tropes are not bad, but defining one's entire view of media solely by them most certainly is. Especially since TV Tropes is where media analysis goes to die.
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Jul 8, 2014 23:15
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Endorph posted:Dude, the word 'archetype' being kind of meaningless is the point people are trying to make. The fact of the matter is that there's so much fiction out there that just about every possible concept has been explored. I can name lots of things where a character who's been portrayed as the leading man has died partway through the story. What matters isn't the base ideas, but the execution. What matters isn't the broad strokes, but the little details, the execution. I haven't watched Game of Thrones, but there have been times where the lead died partway through the story and it felt cheap or forced, and times where the lead died in a way that was meaningful and powerful. Well you can make any word meaningless is you deliberately broaden its definition. That kinda misses the point of words though, right? I agree on the execution though, I'd rather a well executed Tales game than a poorly executed GoT game (I believe there was one). All I was trying to get at was that all other things being equal, I like some variety in the types of characters. Whatever you want to label them as, I think Final Fantasy characters are a bit different than Tales characters, which are different than characters in most Bioware games etc etc.
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Jul 8, 2014 23:25
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Well, I can say Tales games should be more like FF and Mass Effect games (minus 3) in that they should suck less.
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Jul 8, 2014 23:29
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bloodychill posted:Well, I can say Tales games should be more like FF and Mass Effect games (minus 3) in that they should suck less. 
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Jul 8, 2014 23:31
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On opposite day
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Jul 8, 2014 23:31
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Absoloote posted:Well you can make any word meaningless is you deliberately broaden its definition. That kinda misses the point of words though, right? Actually, the opposite is happening. You're assuming the definition of the term "archetype" is more narrow and specific than it really is. It's not a singular traitless character type, it's a category. Put another way, an archetype is closer to a Genus than a species. Something can hew very, very closely to archetype, and can be described as "archetypical" thanks to that closeness, but just because a character is more complex than a strictly archetypical one does not mean it does not fall under the purview of that archetype. It's easy to confuse what the word archetype actually means if one's main exposure to it is as a backformation of the adjective "archetypical" and to assume this means an archetype must be a simple and flat character that hews closely to how the archetype is described. So you can say that Final Fantasy characters are often simple and archetypical, verging on stock, and this is often true because c'mon, it's Final Fantasy. But that does not necessarily mean that characters in Game of Thrones do not fall under the purview of their archetypes. To think otherwise is to drastically misunderstand what the word archetype means. Great. I've contributed once again to a discussion dominated by inane academic prattle. Look at what you made me do.
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Jul 8, 2014 23:37
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Beef Waifu posted:On opposite day
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Jul 8, 2014 23:37
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I'm sorry
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Jul 8, 2014 23:38
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This is still opposite day, right?
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Jul 8, 2014 23:39
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T.G. Xarbala posted:
No idea what a troper is man (a google search doesn't seem to shed much light). I know it's pretty common nowadays to just write off people's opinions by just giving them a label. Troll, fanboy, hater, etc etc. If that's your style, fair enough. I think when it gets to that point, it's a pretty good point to end the argument though.
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Jul 8, 2014 23:39
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T.G. Xarbala posted:This is still opposite day, right?
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Jul 8, 2014 23:40
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Absoloote posted:No idea what a troper is man (a google search doesn't seem to shed much light). I know it's pretty common nowadays to just write off people's opinions by just giving them a label. Troll, fanboy, hater, etc etc. Firstly, it wasn't an argument, it was a criticism of your style of analysis and a suggestion to improve. Secondly, if you can use the word "trope" instead of "theme" or "character type" with a straight face and not know what TV Tropes is or how else to describe someone who engages in works as defined by tropes, then this is a sadder day than you realize.
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Jul 8, 2014 23:44
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T.G. Xarbala posted:Secondly, if you can use the word "trope" instead of "theme" or "character type" with a straight face and not know what TV Tropes is or how else to describe someone who engages in works as defined by tropes, then this is a sadder day than you realize. Pretty sure he's loving with you now, since if you do google it for some bizarre reason, right at the top is the TvTropes "article" on their own name for themselves.
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Jul 8, 2014 23:50
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Kalenn Istarion posted:Both wrong. That's the thing, Mister T is too obvious. It would be like having David Bowie play Sephiroth.
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Jul 8, 2014 23:50
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Dragonatrix posted:Pretty sure he's loving with you now, since if you do google it for some bizarre reason, right at the top is the TvTropes "article" on their own name for themselves. That's not necessarily true. He could also be illiterate. 
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Jul 8, 2014 23:50
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So what you're saying is David Bowie should play Barrett.
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Jul 8, 2014 23:51
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David Bowie should actually play Vincent so when they inevitably redo Dirge of Cerberus Bowie can cover the Gackt songs.
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Jul 8, 2014 23:54
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Yes, the solution is clearly to make Vincent sexy.
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Jul 8, 2014 23:56
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Only during the cutscenes. During gameplay, Vincent is mocapped by some crazed hobo off the street.
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Jul 8, 2014 23:59
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Call me when Vincent gets a Labyrinth-style codpiece.
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Jul 9, 2014 00:02
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If you don't think Vincent wouldn't be improved by having a Owl Morph limit break you're the problem.
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Jul 9, 2014 00:06
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Fister Roboto posted:That's the thing, Mister T is too obvious. It would be like having David Bowie play Sephiroth. Maybe Bowie from when he made The Labyrinth. He's far too old now. Mister T on the other hand looks pretty much exactly the same. E: I actually think Denzel Washington would work as Barret. Not quite as physically imposing as some options but he has loads of presence. Kalenn Istarion fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Jul 9, 2014 |
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Jul 9, 2014 00:21
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The White Dragon posted:So what you're saying is David Bowie should play Barrett. Uh, no, Mr T should play Sephiroth.
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Jul 9, 2014 00:36
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Kalenn Istarion posted:Maybe Bowie from when he made The Labyrinth. He's far too old now. Bowie could play IX's Garland.
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Jul 9, 2014 01:24
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Elentor's FFVII thread taught me that Morgan Freeman should play Vincent. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c99NfY7S1aA
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Jul 9, 2014 01:41
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Krad posted:Bowie could play IX's Garland. That would be weirdly perfect. I always thought his features looked a little alien.
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Jul 9, 2014 02:40
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Final Fantasy XV announced as having a mode where you play as the glasses guy going onto a comedy website forum and bitching about his teammates and how magic doesn't even make sense when you think about it and why can't we have Haste in our action RPG and really, is it too much to ask to go back to the turn based combat system? The AI in this mode is so hard that you have an optional easy mode called "E/N Bullshit"
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Jul 9, 2014 03:12
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Not to add to this....thing that has been going on for a couple pages apparently but I still don't get the derogatory term "genre fiction." Or well, it's used in a very derogatory manner. I cannot recall how it was brought up last time in here but maybe it was about video games compared to books? Something about how video games are only "gene fiction level" of quality and I still don't agree there or even know what the hell that means. It's like saying we should all just be reading Dostoyevsky. I mean, by all accounts Crime and Punishment is an excellent book and i intend to read it someday, but in the meantime I enjoy my books about genetically-engineered dinosaurs. That's "genre fiction" I take it? Well it's still fun to read and interesting too given it was quite a new and exciting idea back then, even if it isn't actually possible. Not like I know enough about science to contradict Crichton anyway and that was probably the point. He knew enough to make it sound plausible to the millions of laymen who read his book. And really "classics" are as derided as "genre fiction" on boards like these. I know plenty of people who would dump The Scarlet Letter in the trash along with anything written by Tom Clancy or Dan Brown, no matter how historically well-received TSL was. So I don't even see the point in praising to the skies the greatness of "classic literature" since a bunch of people somewhere will still say it's garbage. You might as well just read only "genre fiction" because everything you like is gonna be poo poo on by a bunch of people anyway.
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Jul 9, 2014 03:16
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Who the gently caress classifies The Scarlet Letter with Tom Clancy, except in the Crimes Against Commas Tribunal?
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Jul 9, 2014 03:20
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I've never seen them directly compared. I was just picking a piece of "classic lit" that I quite enjoy but a ton of people think is trash. (Probably 'cuz they were forced to read it in high school by inept and/or underpaid teachers but whatever) And Clancy I just picked out of a hat as another scorned piece of literature but this time representing "genre fiction" or at least my understanding of what people are using that term to refer to in here. For this site in particular, I saw TSL listed by a few people in the "Books you couldn't finish" thread in the Book Barn. But I post on a lot of forums and it's not very popular on a good chunk of them.
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Jul 9, 2014 03:24
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Well there's your problem, the avergae book barn poster can't read anything without dragons or lasers.
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Jul 9, 2014 03:26
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NikkolasKing posted:I've never seen them directly compared. I was just picking a piece of "classic lit" that I quite enjoy but a ton of people think is trash. (Probably 'cuz they were forced to read it in high school by inept and/or underpaid teachers but whatever) And Clancy I just picked out of a hat as another scorned piece of literature but this time representing "genre fiction" or at least my understanding of what people are using that term to refer to in here. There's a difference between a book you can't finish and a book that is pretty crap. A lot of people can't finish Moby Dick but it's fairly easy to recognize the things it does right (and wrong, for that matter! There's a lot of well-founded criticism about Moby Dick after all.)
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Jul 9, 2014 03:26
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FFXV includes a section where you ride Captain Cid Ahab's spear into Moby "Highwind" Dick's interior, where it turns out it's actually an airship controlled by an A.M.-esque supercomputer.
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Jul 9, 2014 03:30
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"Genre fiction" as a term simply means works written to fulfill the requirements of fitting into a genre in order to appeal to customers known to read works in said genre. Now, a work's genre is independent of its quality, but the realities of publishing and being a writer trying to make a living means most genre fiction made in the last century is, essentially, boilerplate. In practice, authors tend to start with the genre first, wrote towards that, and tried to get as much done quickly and well enough to get paid so they could eat. If you're taking these two words together out of the industry and critical context they arrive in, of course it's going to sound like some strange critical prejudice against certain categories of content for a seemingly arbitrary reason. But in context, the phrase "genre fiction" has earned a reputation for being shlock because, in reality, much of it is. And part of that is due in no small part because it's the literary equivalent of fast food. Quality and creativity helps to get one's name out there but they're hardly a requirement. Similarly, people can use the term "anime" as a derogatory descriptor and be instantly understood. And I'm saying this as someone who actually likes anime and genre fiction and other poo poo that a person with a less withered sense of shame would probably be reluctant to admit.
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Jul 9, 2014 03:36
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....so in other news, I thought I'd bust open FFX again. Not the HD rerelease, the original version that I have. I'm at the end, I haven't done anything in Sin yet, but I should probably go capture a lot of crap and get some of the easy celestial weapons. Weirdly, I have Cadalbog already because chocobo racing is just really easy for me. I don't have a first strike weapon... yet. Is there a decent place to go besides the Omega Ruins to get some exp?
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Jul 9, 2014 04:55
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crestfallen posted:....so in other news, I thought I'd bust open FFX again. Not the HD rerelease, the original version that I have. I'm at the end, I haven't done anything in Sin yet, but I should probably go capture a lot of crap and get some of the easy celestial weapons. Weirdly, I have Cadalbog already because chocobo racing is just really easy for me. If you're already in the process of capturing monsters, you'll receive Auron's Mars Sigil as you go. Once you use it use fully power up the Masamune, it gains First Strike. It works out very well to have first strike on Auron in particular, as his Shooting Star overdrive will instakill Great Malboros. Failing that, the city area inside Sin is a good place to start grinding. Almost every encounter gives 10k+ AP. You'll need to capture monsters there anyways.
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Jul 9, 2014 05:59
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maou shoujo posted:If you're already in the process of capturing monsters, you'll receive Auron's Mars Sigil as you go. Once you use it use fully power up the Masamune, it gains First Strike. It works out very well to have first strike on Auron in particular, as his Shooting Star overdrive will instakill Great Malboros. Plus this gives me the opportunity to ask, what is your avatar from? The ears and text say "Disgaea," but that's no class I'm familiar with.
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Jul 9, 2014 06:08
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