|
It's interesting that the proponents of maintaining the virus samples are just saying "Well what if we need the samples in the future?" but aren't articulating what we could possibly need them for. It's literally the same as saying "we need to keep smallpox around because reasons".
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 01:30
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 12:44 |
|
|
Ogmius815 posted:It's interesting that the proponents of maintaining the virus samples are just saying "Well what if we need the samples in the future?" but aren't articulating what we could possibly need them for. It's literally the same as saying "we need to keep smallpox around because reasons". Can you predict the future? I can't. That's the whole point of that argument. A crazy problem we never could have foreseen or planned for might some day come up that smallpox is useful for, somehow. Who knows?
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 01:43
|
|
|
Ogmius815 posted:It's interesting that the proponents of maintaining the virus samples are just saying "Well what if we need the samples in the future?" but aren't articulating what we could possibly need them for. It's literally the same as saying "we need to keep smallpox around because reasons". But isn't that a good enough reason? We can't think of any circumstance in which we'd need them, but there are circumstances we can't think of. Once it's gone, it's gone forever.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 01:43
|
|
|
Jack Gladney posted:But isn't that a good enough reason? We can't think of any circumstance in which we'd need them, but there are circumstances we can't think of. Once it's gone, it's gone forever. I'd say its a good enough reason. Ogmius815 posted:It's interesting that the proponents of maintaining the virus samples are just saying "Well what if we need the samples in the future?" but aren't articulating what we could possibly need them for. It's literally the same as saying "we need to keep smallpox around because reasons". Why do you want it destroyed anyway? Russia and America both have it, and if it's so drat easy to get a vaccine without needing to use it, why bother destroying it at all? Seems to be a waste of a fascinating little disease that we've basically made impotent, and can still teach us a lot. We're already driving species left and right to extinction, I'm not entirely sure I can get behind the drive to cause the extinction of yet another form of life. E-Tank fucked around with this message at 03:16 on Jul 9, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 03:14
|
|
|
As we know, there are known knowns; there are things that we know that we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 03:28
|
|
|
Ogmius815 posted:As we know, there are known knowns; there are things that we know that we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know. I like this post because it accurately characterizes you as this thread's Rumsfeld equivalent. 
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 03:30
|
|
|
Ogmius815 posted:As we know, there are known knowns; there are things that we know that we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know. Okay. You're saying that we should destroy it. I am asking you. Straight up. Why should we destroy it? You've made the argument quite clear that we don't need the samples to produce a vaccine, but you haven't given us a reason as to *why* we should wipe out another species of life from this earth. I can only guess that it's because you're afraid it'll be used against everyone in some way or another. Again however, you've proven multiple times that we can whip up a vaccine lickity split, so there's nothing to be afraid of. Therefore there can be no true 'bad' reason to keep it around. Only research possibilities and potential cures for other debilitating diseases. Why do you want to destroy it so much if you've gone to such lengths proving that Smallpox is no threat, therefore we don't need to keep it around for vaccines?
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 03:32
|
|
|
Isn't there an international agency that the stocks could be handed off to, so that it isn't destroyed outright, but so that the Americans and Russians won't potentially be able to use it as a biological weapon?
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 03:34
|
|
|
Hedera Helix posted:Isn't there an international agency that the stocks could be handed off to, so that it isn't destroyed outright, but so that the Americans and Russians won't potentially be able to use it as a biological weapon? Smallpox as a biological weapon is dumb. Super dumb. No government going to use it as such. Anthrax? Sure, it doesn't spread. Smallpox would ravage everyone. Edit: This had already been posted, and in much better wording so I guess why bother?
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 03:37
|
|
|
E-Tank posted:Okay. You're saying that we should destroy it. I am asking you. Straight up. The small chance that it could be used as a weapon outweighs the benefits because there literally are no benefits. Even if the rich countries would be fine in an outbreak (the CDC has a massive vaccine stockpile, just in case) poorer countries might be hosed.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 03:37
|
|
|
Ogmius815 posted:The small chance that it could be used as a weapon How
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 03:39
|
|
|
The big danger with smallpox is that it will get out unexpectedly because some old sample nobody knows about gets disturbed. As happened yesterday afternoon. Nobody got sick, though.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 03:40
|
|
|
Ogmius815 posted:The small chance No chance. It's pointless. Smallpox is devastating, but everyone has vaccines for it, making it a lovely weapon. It also spreads rapidly, and would hit whoever used it just as hard. It's not a weapon.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 03:41
|
|
|
Jack Gladney posted:The big danger with smallpox is that it will get out unexpectedly because some old sample nobody knows about gets disturbed. As happened yesterday afternoon. Nobody got sick, though. It's a good thing we're discussing well-documented samples safely stored at a secure location.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 03:41
|
|
|
Ogmius815 posted:there literally are no benefits. QuarkJets posted:But this research scientist says that we should keep it, and he outlines the reasons why: quote:Currently, the only real benefit to destroying all known remaining stockpiles of variola in the world would be the elimination of the extremely unlikely possibility of unleashing a lethal epidemic due to the theft or accidental release of the virus from one of the remaining official stocks. In reality, this destruction would provide only an illusion of safety, and the drawbacks are many. Ogmius815 posted:Even if the rich countries would be fine in an outbreak (the CDC has a massive vaccine stockpile, just in case) poorer countries might be hosed. I'm 90% sure that in order to maintain that smallpox will never gain a foothold on the world ever again, everybody will pretty much go 'gently caress that poo poo.' and just vaccinate everybody.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 03:42
|
|
|
I don't know maybe Russia wants to gently caress up Estonia or something. Maybe the virus just gets out because of poor security in some lab in eastern Europe. The chances are remote, but, once again, no one has articulated any clear benefit at all for not destroying the virus other than "well it might somehow come in handy sometime" which could be used to justify anything and is thus terrible reasoning.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 03:43
|
|
|
E-Tank posted:I'm 90% sure that in order to maintain that smallpox will never gain a foothold on the world ever again, everybody will pretty much go 'gently caress that poo poo.' and just vaccinate everybody. 1. Why can't we use other viruses for the same research? He specifically mentions vaccinia. 2. This is just science fetishism; actual research on smallpox has never produced anything of value and isn't going to any time soon. This is the same stupid logic that leads to scientists producing superstrains of influenza to no discernibly useful end.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 03:45
|
|
|
Ogmius815 posted:I don't know maybe Russia wants to gently caress up Estonia or something. Maybe the virus just gets out because of poor security in some lab in eastern Europe. The chances are remote, but, once again, no one has articulated any clear benefit at all for not destroying the virus other than "well it might somehow come in handy sometime" which could be used to justify anything and is thus terrible reasoning. Genetic diversity is a very good reason to keep everything, and the biggest reason behind endangered species programs. You never know when something will come in handy. Especially when the risks are non-existent since neither Russia or America would ever unleash smallpox into the world.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 03:47
|
|
|
Ogmius815 posted:I don't know maybe Russia wants to gently caress up Estonia or something. Maybe the virus just gets out because of poor security in some lab in eastern Europe. The chances are remote, but, once again, no one has articulated any clear benefit at all for not destroying the virus other than "well it might somehow come in handy sometime" which could be used to justify anything and is thus terrible reasoning. The smallpox genome is well-documented. If there's a massive smallpox outbreak, the first place people will look will be the labs that store it. So if Russia wants to gently caress itself over with smallpox, it will not use the samples it has in store.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 03:48
|
|
|
Mrit posted:Genetic diversity is a very good reason to keep everything, and the biggest reason behind endangered species programs. You never know when something will come in handy. Especially when the risks are non-existent since neither Russia or America would ever unleash smallpox into the world. You know I bet both America and EDIT: Also neither of those states has ever just decided to be a bastard. Not once.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 03:49
|
|
|
Ogmius815 posted:You know I bet both America and Be careful, Pakistan has nukes and might do a terrorism!!!!
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 03:50
|
|
|
Ogmius815 posted:I don't know maybe Russia wants to gently caress up Estonia or something. Russia would immediately have the entire loving world breathing down their neck. UN sanctions would be the least of their problems as attempted biological warfare would basically bring the entire world's wrath down upon them. It's been explained numerous times, that smallpox is a *really* lovely biological weapon. It'll hit your people just as hard, unless they're all vaccinated, and I'm pretty sure that the world'd notice at some point or another that Russia is hurriedly vaccinating all their citizens against smallpox. Ogmius815 posted:Maybe the virus just gets out because of poor security in some lab in eastern Europe. If they have the virus, they have the vaccine, and they are ready to apply it whenever they need to in case of an accident. Ogmius815 posted:This is just science fetishism; "I am going to dismiss this scientific paper because it doesn't agree with what I'm saying. I do this based on the fact that I am right, and he is wrong. What proof do I have that this is bullshit? Umm....It's bullshit." I'm not trying to be a jerk, and I'm sorry if I'm coming across that way, but you're getting antsy over nothing.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 03:50
|
|
|
Ogmius815 posted:I don't know maybe Russia wants to gently caress up Estonia or something. Maybe the virus just gets out because of poor security in some lab in eastern Europe. The chances are remote, but, once again, no one has articulated any clear benefit at all for not destroying the virus other than "well it might somehow come in handy sometime" which could be used to justify anything and is thus terrible reasoning. ONE GOOD REASON IS THAT THE NIH FOUND A BUNCH OF OLD FORGOTTEN SAMPLES JUST SITTING THERE WAITING TO INFECT SOME CARELESS JANITOR LIKE THE TEASER IN SOME loving X-FILES EPISODE. THERE COULD BE MORE OUT THERE SOMEWHERE ELSE UNDOCUMENTED OR FROZEN IN SOME CORPSE IN ALASKA OR SOME poo poo SO IT'S GOOD TO HAVE SOME AROUND JUST IN CASE.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 03:50
|
|
|
GROVER CURES HOUSE posted:Be careful, Pakistan has nukes and might do a terrorism!!!! It is also a bad thing that Pakistan has nukes. Are you coming out against non-proliferation now?
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 03:51
|
|
|
GROVER CURES HOUSE posted:The smallpox genome is well-documented. If there's a massive smallpox outbreak, the first place people will look will be the labs that store it. So if Russia wants to gently caress itself over with smallpox, it will not use the samples it has in store. Just because a weapon is apocalyptic doesn't mean it's not a weapon, there is such a concept as a doomsday weapon. If we could get enough consensus to destroy a major strain of biological weapon why shouldn't we take it?
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 03:51
|
|
|
Paul MaudDib posted:Just because a weapon is apocalyptic doesn't mean it's not a weapon, there is such a concept as a doomsday weapon. If we could get enough consensus to destroy a major strain of biological weapon why shouldn't we take it? Because reasons.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 03:52
|
|
|
GROVER CURES HOUSE posted:Be careful, Pakistan has nukes and might do a terrorism!!!! Clearly if we don't destroy them it'll only lead to bad things happening, because there are no beneficial reasons for them to have nukes. At least none that anyone has articulated to me. And it's just *going* to happen eventually. Because countries aren't stable forever. We need to just nuke them first, really it's the only reasonable option.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 03:53
|
|
|
Ogmius815 posted:It is also a bad thing that Pakistan has nukes. Are you coming out against non-proliferation now? Why aren't you panicking? Pakistan has weapons! Of Mass Destruction!! Paul MaudDib posted:Just because a weapon is apocalyptic doesn't mean it's not a weapon, there is such a concept as a doomsday weapon. If we could get enough consensus to destroy a major strain of biological weapon why shouldn't we take it? It's a bad weapon because there is a well known, well tested countermeasure against it. It's not a doomsday weapon.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 03:54
|
|
|
Ogmius815 posted:Because reasons. Yeah I mean the same logic applies to letting nations keep chemical weapons around. And really any type of weapon of mass destruction. Oh, international pressure (read: magic wish-granting fairies) would come down like a ton of bricks on a lovely little tinpot dictator who used them! And you never know, that chemical might come in handy someday, like if you needed a heavy-duty paint stripper or something!
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 03:54
|
|
|
Paul MaudDib posted:Yeah I mean the same logic applies to letting nations keep chemical weapons around. Oh, international pressure (read: magic wish-granting fairies) would come down like a ton of bricks on a lovely little tinpot dictator who used them. And you never know, that chemical might come in handy someday, like if you needed a heavy-duty paint stripper or something! I agree, we should ban phosgene forever.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 03:55
|
|
|
The idea that a smallpox outbreak in a poor country would result in immediate international action is also totally hilarious. Because every time there's a human crisis in a foreign country there's the U.S. with unlimited and totally efficacious interventions am I right guys?
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 03:55
|
|
|
Ogmius815 posted:The idea that a smallpox outbreak in a poor country would result in immediate international action is also totally hilarious. Because every time there's a human crisis in a foreign country there's the U.S. with unlimited and totally efficacious interventions am I right guys? A deadly disease that has been completely eradicated suddenly coming back will chill a lot of feet. So yes. Yes it will.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 03:56
|
|
|
Paul MaudDib posted:Yeah I mean the same logic applies to letting nations keep chemical weapons around. And really any type of weapon of mass destruction. The fact that I'm now being mocked for being anti-nuclear proliferation is really telling.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 03:56
|
|
|
The other question, then, is why somebody would want to use smallpox as a weapon in the first place. As far as weapons go it really, really sucks. Yeah it's pretty virulent but it kills indiscriminately, you can't control it, and we have a poo poo load of weapons that are more effective, easier to target, and require less of a cleanup. Unleashing smallpox would be a stupid thing as it would likely contaminate an area for years to come which, generally speaking, is a thing you don't want to happen. Smallpox is a horrible weapon that is pretty unlikely to ever be used as one.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 03:57
|
|
|
GROVER CURES HOUSE posted:It's a bad weapon because there is a well known, well tested countermeasure against it. It's not a doomsday weapon. No, it's not a good weapon against uniformed troops who have received the vaccine. They don't give the general population the smallpox vaccine anymore, and although it would be less effective (although not entirely ineffective) against those troops it would still be extremely effective in killing incredible numbers of people. Yours included, of course. It's not a weapon you'd use as an tactical weapon, it's a "gently caress you" weapon for when you're losing and you want to leave your enemies ruling a heap of ash. Or a planetary leper colony. Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 04:02 on Jul 9, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 03:57
|
|
|
GROVER CURES HOUSE posted:A deadly disease that has been completely eradicated suddenly coming back will chill a lot of feet. So why does polio still exist?
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 03:57
|
|
|
Ogmius815 posted:The fact that I'm now being mocked for being anti-nuclear proliferation is really telling. I want to make it perfectly clear that I am mocking you for being obtuse and borderline illiterate.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 03:57
|
|
|
Ogmius815 posted:So why does polio still exist? Correction, confirmed illiterate.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 03:57
|
|
|
Ogmius815 posted:So why does polio still exist? They're not done exterminating it yet? Last I heard people are working pretty hard on that and the theory is that it won't be long before polio only exists in a few vials in a lab somewhere as well.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 03:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 12:44 |
|
|
The U.S. can't stop Syria from gassing its own people but BOY HEY if a major power ever decided to use a bio-weapon here comes the world police!
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 03:59
|
|