|
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/epa-coal-rolling-short-answer-illegal
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2014 20:09
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 18, 2024 22:22 |
|
|
Now if only someone bothered to enforce it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2014 20:15
|
|
|
I wish I could grasp how their brains work. "I hate legislation for cleaner air, so I'm going to purposefully make more pollution," just doesn't make any sense.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2014 20:30
|
|
|
I would think it would be enforced heavily if they are able to get the giant fines for bypassing emissions. I know any time talk of removing the DPF on the new TDI comes up on certain website, it's crushed immediately.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2014 20:51
|
|
|
What about legitimate uses for fuel programmers? It's the same as it is for motorcycles - you can usually tease more power out of your vehicle if you spend some time messing with the fueling. Sucks that these idiots are well on their way to ruining that for everyone that wants legitimate gains. I guess they could just say "hey, don't allow maps to dump in 500% fuel when the owner is feeling inadequate" but I can't see how that'd be enforced.
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2014 20:57
|
|
|
Adjusting the fuel map for performance reasons puts you into sports car territory. Illinois has a process to submit an application for exemption, with the downside that the vehicle will only be legal on a race track. I assume other states will have similar processes.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2014 21:07
|
|
|
I believe that almost all legislation of this type has an exemption of "don't take the piss or act like a knob and you'll probably be fine"
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2014 21:10
|
|
|
Maybe across the pond. Legislators here will ask you why you're stealing piss while "coal rolling" and what knob you're using on your black box to produce so much smog.
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2014 21:23
|
|
|
Technically piss will help you harm the environment less, m'kay.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_exhaust_fluid (We do have legislation like that here on a load of things, but if you don't behave like a complete twunt, you'll probably never get looked at hard enough for it to matter) InitialDave fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Jul 8, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2014 21:33
|
|
|
I think it will only go away when people make the societal change that it is just a stupid fad the way that under glow lights were a stupid fad (albeit less harmful for air quality). It's just a stupid dick wagging FYGM mentality. Something similar can be said about texting while driving, only after a certain amount of damage caused will people begin to say 'you know it's just not worth it'. Here in Utah texting while driving is illegal and more recently have they added 'distracted driving' including manipulating a mobile device. Idiots still do it, but at least when they kill someone in an auto/pedestrian/head on collision accident there will be a law to come back to. The laws won't stop people, but eventually the body count will.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2014 22:10
|
|
|
Nocheez posted:I wish I could grasp how their brains work. "I hate legislation for cleaner air, so I'm going to purposefully make more pollution," just doesn't make any sense. The best theory I have is that it's similar to the attitude a former acquaintance of mine had. I was over his house and asked where the recycle bin was to dispose of a couple 2 liter bottles. He informed me he just throws those in the trash because "I have a right to do whatever I wish to this planet as long as I am on it." Essentially manifest destiny as applied to everything. He was pretty much a ridiculous conservative/libertarian who didn't believe in global warming either, but to have the mindset that you somehow have a right to foul up the planet when it would literally take no effort to do the least you can do (recycle plastic) just astounded me.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2014 22:24
|
|
|
Angry_Ed posted:The best theory I have is that it's similar to the attitude a former acquaintance of mine had. I was over his house and asked where the recycle bin was to dispose of a couple 2 liter bottles. He informed me he just throws those in the trash because "I have a right to do whatever I wish to this planet as long as I am on it." Essentially manifest destiny as applied to everything. He was pretty much a ridiculous conservative/libertarian who didn't believe in global warming either, but to have the mindset that you somehow have a right to foul up the planet when it would literally take no effort to do the least you can do (recycle plastic) just astounded me. In a lot of places, it all goes to the same place regardless
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2014 22:32
|
|
|
I have the "right" to do a lot of lovely things too, but I don't because it would piss people off and I don't like being considered an rear end in a top hat. That consideration for other living things seems to be that dude's missing component. 
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2014 22:34
|
|
|
So off the coal-rolling train for a moment, can someone explain why the previous owner of my El Camino installed a roller cam in a solid lifter setup? This caused the thrust button to bind and start eating away at the front of the block, then the cam started being chewed up by the solid lifters. Is this a thing? Is there a reason for doing that? I am the first to admit to not knowing much beyond the basics about engine internals, but I can't figure out WTF he was thinking.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2014 23:33
|
|
|
Idiot that heard that "cammed" motors are fast, bought random performance cam and followed Google instructions to put it in? I have an extremely low opinion of most POs, as most of mine have failed to grasp concepts as simple as "vacuum the loving car once in awhile" and "tires are important to maintain," so to go as far as to put a cam into the car is some NASA level rocket scientist poo poo that I cannot imagine them doing properly. Seat Safety Switch fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Jul 8, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2014 23:35
|
|
|
InitialDave posted:I believe that almost all legislation of this type has an exemption of "don't take the piss or act like a knob and you'll probably be fine" At least for the Illinois example this is the case. Except for Chicago and East St. Louis since they apparently do emissions testing.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 00:07
|
|
|
Nocheez posted:I wish I could grasp how their brains work. "I hate legislation for cleaner air, so I'm going to purposefully make more pollution," just doesn't make any sense. This has nothing to do with "anti-enviromentalists". Its just douchebags with trucks and they think its cool when they blow black smoke.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 01:15
|
|
|
D C posted:This has nothing to do with "anti-enviromentalists". I've seen enough dim-witted facebook posts about rolling coal > hurr durr prius drivers > obama voters  to make me think otherwise
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 01:20
|
|
|
I wish Obama would make a speech tomorrow warning people about the dangers of putting a shotgun in your mouth and pulling the trigger, and why you shouldn't do it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 02:38
|
|
|
Or that guns are awesome and everyone should have several.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 02:58
|
|
|
I have a little sympathy for diesel pickups only because I think the EPA has really raped them with emissions, it used to be possible to get close to 20mpg in an empty pickup (or so owners claim) now it's hard to even get 10mpg empty. Reducing the smoke with ULSD fuels just seems kinda pointless since older motors needed the sulphur to provide lubrication, and all the deadly toxic cancer soot used to just fall to the ground. Besides, everything you touch causes cancer these days. That's just how I feel about the EPA regulations on diesel, way to strict and not enough time for manufacturers to adapt (thus leading to Cat ditching the OTR market. . .). Maybe this is just a terrible post about cars. Despite my opinion of the EPA and diesel, I still think rolling coal is loving retarded and I pray for a melted piston for all the ignorant rednecks. I have equal disrespect for the damned hippies in their Priuses when they start preaching. I'm just mad at anyone who owns a vehicle that pollutes more or less than mine.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 03:12
|
|
|
Crotch Fruit posted:I have a little sympathy for diesel pickups only because I think the EPA has really raped them with emissions, it used to be possible to get close to 20mpg in an empty pickup (or so owners claim) now it's hard to even get 10mpg empty. Reducing the smoke with ULSD fuels just seems kinda pointless since older motors needed the sulphur to provide lubrication, and all the deadly toxic cancer soot used to just fall to the ground. Besides, everything you touch causes cancer these days. I lived in India for 6 months where as far as I can tell particulate pollution was completely unregulated. I assure you, you want heavy regulations on soot. The city was completely loving covered in soot from the dirty diesels and 2 strokes.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 03:18
|
|
|
drgitlin posted:Or that guns are awesome and everyone should have several. Broken clock and all that.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 03:34
|
|
|
FatCow posted:I lived in India for 6 months where as far as I can tell particulate pollution was completely unregulated. I assure you, you want heavy regulations on soot. The city was completely loving covered in soot from the dirty diesels and 2 strokes. Counterpoint: India's population is  high and (if TV is true) they still consider split rims safe, I would bet most of their diesels are based off of WW2 era designs.What I mean to say is in the '90s and '00s I don't remember the US being covered in soot. Not Wolverine fucked around with this message at 04:13 on Jul 9, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 04:05
|
|
|
Crotch Fruit posted:What I mean to say is in the '90s and '00s I don't remember the US being covered in soot. In the 80's and 90's it was super common to get trapped in a cloud of diesel exhaust if you were behind a semi at a stop light. It definitely wasn't an omnipresent haze, but it stunk the place up when it came in through the vents.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 04:11
|
|
|
Crotch Fruit posted:Counterpoint: India's population is I think two stroke engines are a bigger culprit than diesels. Diesels are pretty expensive and only in larger vehicles, but any working slumdweller can save up enough for a two stroke scooter after a while and air quality in many places in the Indian subcontinent and SE Asia are pretty terrible as a result. In China the smaller cities with less industry and cars often have air quality just as bad or worse than the larger ones for the same reason - most larger cities ban two stroke engines outright.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 04:13
|
|
|
Crotch Fruit posted:I have a little sympathy for diesel pickups only because I think the EPA has really raped them with emissions, it used to be possible to get close to 20mpg in an empty pickup (or so owners claim) now it's hard to even get 10mpg empty. Reducing the smoke with ULSD fuels just seems kinda pointless since older motors needed the sulphur to provide lubrication, and all the deadly toxic cancer soot used to just fall to the ground. Besides, everything you touch causes cancer these days. Maybe American makes just suck balls at making decent diesels because European and Asian brands seem to be able to make modern fuel efficient diesels that meet euro V whilst having preposterously awesome performance compared to cars from ten years ago.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 04:18
|
|
|
Slavvy posted:Maybe American makes just suck balls at making decent diesels because European and Asian brands seem to be able to make modern fuel efficient diesels that meet euro V whilst having preposterously awesome performance compared to cars from ten years ago. Last I checked euro diesel emmisions standards are nowhere near as strict as US standards. Also, your diesels are things like a TDI Jetta, American diesels are F-350 sized, does Europe have an F-350 or something comparable? Lastly, the GM350 diesel kinda pissed off everyone for a long time, but GM is trying to makeup for that disaster with the diesel Cruze. And performance? Have you seen a Mercedes diesel from the 80s? I don't hate all EPA regulations, I love clean air and oxygen. I just feel like the EPA freaked out and started waving around the C word to force diesel manufacturers to make big changes in a very short amount of time, so diesels have kinda gone to poo poo. It's not the first time the EPA has screwed us, every motor from the late 70s and 80s sucked due to new polution and economy regulations. But at least back then they had a real reason to rush new regulations on auto makers.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 04:35
|
|
|
D C posted:This has nothing to do with "anti-enviromentalists". Right. Except they really do hate environmentalists and love to show it. Just look at any of the pages dedicated to rolling coal, selling stacks and stickers like "prius repellent" with arrows going to the stacks. Or the many YouTube videos of the same. Also you fucks stop hating on two strokes.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 04:40
|
|
|
iwentdoodie posted:Also you fucks stop hating on two strokes. Detroit Diesel two strokes are awesome even if they make mother nature cry, but the POS gasoline powered two stroke in your scooter sucks.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 04:48
|
|
|
Crotch Fruit posted:Detroit Diesel two strokes are awesome even if they make mother nature cry, but the POS gasoline powered two stroke in your scooter sucks. If you can't appreciate two stroke motorcycles, I really don't know what to tell you.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 05:19
|
|
|
xzzy posted:In the 80's and 90's it was super common to get trapped in a cloud of diesel exhaust if you were behind a semi at a stop light. It definitely wasn't an omnipresent haze, but it stunk the place up when it came in through the vents. Friar Zucchini fucked around with this message at 05:25 on Jul 9, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 05:22
|
|
|
Crotch Fruit posted:I have a little sympathy for diesel pickups only because I think the EPA has really raped them with emissions, it used to be possible to get close to 20mpg in an empty pickup (or so owners claim) now it's hard to even get 10mpg empty. Reducing the smoke with ULSD fuels just seems kinda pointless since older motors needed the sulphur to provide lubrication, and all the deadly toxic cancer soot used to just fall to the ground. Besides, everything you touch causes cancer these days. Come to London, walk around in the city for a while, then blow your nose. See how much soot doesn't fall to the ground. Live near a largish road, wash part of the outside, see how much soot doesn't fall to the ground. Drive your car or ride a motorbike, after a few weeks, lick your finger and run it down the front, see how much soot doesn't fall to the ground. Think about every lovely poorly maintained diesel you see on the motorway shits soot out every time they hit the accelerator. It is loving terrible and diesels are loving terrible full stop.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 05:22
|
|
|
Throatwarbler posted:I think two stroke engines are a bigger culprit than diesels. Diesels are pretty expensive and only in larger vehicles, but any working slumdweller can save up enough for a two stroke scooter after a while and air quality in many places in the Indian subcontinent and SE Asia are pretty terrible as a result. In China the smaller cities with less industry and cars often have air quality just as bad or worse than the larger ones for the same reason - most larger cities ban two stroke engines outright. Yup. When I visited China a few years back a ton of the scooters in Beijing were electric. This was due to some kind of government program. There were still a lot of fossil fuel scooters on the streets but I think they had basically banned new sales.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 06:08
|
|
|
Slavvy posted:Maybe American makes just suck balls at making decent diesels because European and Asian brands seem to be able to make modern fuel efficient diesels that meet euro V whilst having preposterously awesome performance compared to cars from ten years ago. As mentioned, US has much tighter particulate and NOX emissions standards thanks to places like LA being covered by smog (though less than 20 years ago thanks to tighter standards, though in the summer, I'm only a couple miles from Mt. Baldy, but you wouldn't know it looking out my office window).
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 06:13
|
|
|
 I saw this in DC last weekend. Not a government vehicle, confirmed private owner blocking sidewalk ramp, crosswalk, hydrant.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 06:30
|
|
|
Linedance posted:Come to London, walk around in the city for a while, then blow your nose. See how much soot doesn't fall to the ground. Live near a largish road, wash part of the outside, see how much soot doesn't fall to the ground. Drive your car or ride a motorbike, after a few weeks, lick your finger and run it down the front, see how much soot doesn't fall to the ground. Think about every lovely poorly maintained diesel you see on the motorway shits soot out every time they hit the accelerator. It is loving terrible and diesels are loving terrible full stop. The amount of soot and general air quality in London is astonishingly awful and would send your average Californian environmentalist into a tizzy. I recall having an aircon unit I ran for just a couple weeks per year there and it made its intake black with soot.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 07:30
|
|
|
xzzy posted:In the 80's and 90's it was super common to get trapped in a cloud of diesel exhaust if you were behind a semi at a stop light. It definitely wasn't an omnipresent haze, but it stunk the place up when it came in through the vents. The city I grew up in - El Paso TX - used to have an Asarco copper/lead/zinc smelter. Growing up, there was always a thick brown haze over the city, especially in the winter. Which everyone blamed on people in Juarez MX (which borders El Paso, with the border about a mile from Asarco) burning tires to stay warm in the winter, and just kind of shrugged about it in the summer. The plant shut down in 1999, and surprise, almost all of the haze went away within 6 months or so. They also had to do a ton of cleanup of neighborhoods within a few miles of the plant - an old friend of mine had both Asarco and the EPA come out, sample the soil in her yard, and immediately tore up all the soil (okay, sand and rocks) in the entire neighborhood. Same thing happened in her parents neighborhood a couple of miles away - they found lead levels that were hilariously above safe levels. "Smeltertown" was actually a company-built city next to the plant in the late 1800s, which was evacuated in the 1970s thanks to all the lead contamination. It even has its own cemetery. Anyway, to contribute, GBS is leaking into license plates now  
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 08:59
|
|
|
Crotch Fruit posted:Last I checked euro diesel emmisions standards are nowhere near as strict as US standards. Also, your diesels are things like a TDI Jetta, American diesels are F-350 sized, does Europe have an F-350 or something comparable? Lastly, the GM350 diesel kinda pissed off everyone for a long time, but GM is trying to makeup for that disaster with the diesel Cruze. So firstly, I decided to look up california emissions standards vs euro V. California allows less NOx, euro V allows less CO. Most critically to your argument, california actually allows more particulate matter than euro V. Only slightly, but it's still more, so I think it's not unfair to say that california emissions standards have rough parity with euro V. Now for some examples. The Toyota (not a fancy european brand at all) 1VD engine happily meets euro V whilst pumping out 260bhp and 650nm of torque; I can't imagine this being considered insufficient for the likes of an F150 or similar but it isn't particularly difficult or costly to scale an engine up if need be, were they so inclined. Moving on to actual 'european' makes, BMW's N57 engine in it's most potent form makes 380-odd horsepower and 740nm of torque. This seems preposterously powerful to my simple non-american brain but maybe that isn't enough? Ok. Audi's V12 as found in the Q7 makes around 500hp and 1000nm of torque. I'm 90% certain this is enough to transport a ford F350 to walmart and back again with a bunch of useless garbage in the tray. But what do I know? These engines have piss-poor performance as evidenced by mercedes diesel engines from the 80's. Your argument is foolproof. There is no possible way these engines can do what they do whilst meeting euro V (sometimes euro VI!) standards, let alone be slightly tweaked to pass californian emissions standards. Keeping in mind I'm focusing on california here, not the US in general which I understand is generally a lot slacker on emissions. And they somehow have excellent consumption figures whilst dragging around horribly heavy and over-complicated vehicles designed to be safer than a bomb shelter. But none of this matters because they don't 'get' californian emissions standards and if only they knew how hamstrung american makes are when they try to build diesels because making a decent diesel engine for a passenger car is completely different to a pick-up truck because you see 
Slavvy fucked around with this message at 10:50 on Jul 9, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 10:46
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 18, 2024 22:22 |
|
|
So why don't they do it then? Because they hate America? Pretty much everything that you can get outside North America that you can't get in North American basically boils down to the fact that Americans get the cheapest cars in the world, and no one in America is willing to pay the prices that Europeans pay in order to get slightly softer dash covers or diesel engines or whatever the bugbear of the day is.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 10:58
|
|