Who What Now posted:We're not talking about Sunnis now are we? Even if the church hierarchy wouldn't be in positions by law, they would almost certainly find those positions in a weird coincidence (it wouldn't actually be a coincidence). Theocracy only applies to Christians? This is surely not reasonable.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 19:28
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 17:43 |
|
|
Effectronica posted:Theocracy only applies to Christians? This is surely not reasonable. In America it does, yes.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 19:29
|
|
Who What Now posted:In America it does, yes. This is an asinine position to hold. Definitions should not shift so broadly when we talk about one specific country if we are to have meaningful communication.
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 19:30
|
|
|
Effectronica posted:This is an asinine position to hold. Definitions should not shift so broadly when we talk about one specific country if we are to have meaningful communication. I don't know what to tell you then, but that's the way it works. Different cultures that have similar terms can have vastly different meanings.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 19:31
|
|
Who What Now posted:I don't know what to tell you then, but that's the way it works. Different cultures can mean that similar terms have vastly different meanings. So what would we call a hypothetical USA that was ruled by Buddhist law? What should we call this proposed society, which separates out religious authority and secular (an example of a word that genuinely shifts meanings in this context) authority but still has the secular authority informed by religious values? Because saying "Theocracy requires popery!" is not convincing as a response to this system without outlining the means by which it is impossible to establish this system outlined in the prior sentence.
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 19:34
|
|
|
Please stop fighting, my D&D friends 
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 19:35
|
|
|
Effectronica posted:The Romans required people to follow the state religion. This is not the same thing at all, and the idea that theocratic rule always ends in the extermination/violent oppression of religious minorities ignores vast parts of Islamic history. Yes and the state religion was that the emperor was god and also was head of the state. That's a theocracy. Rule by God or human incarnation of God. And theocracy and theonomy, result in the criminalization of not following religious doctrine. How that gets expressed can vary wildly, but breaking the religious doctrine is always also a crime against the state in a theonomy and that's dangerous. And I do think Islam has ways out of authoritarian theonomy, into a more democratic theonomy (or even towards a version of secularism) that are inclusive and not authoritarian. You don't have to convince me there (someone else already did). But, when there is a theonomy if you break the law of God, you break the law of the state and there isn't any dodging that. Bar Ran Dun fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Jul 9, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 19:36
|
|
|
In all seriousness Christianity is best when it serves as a foil for power, be it the State or localized rulers. Theocracy defeats this when combined with Christianity as the Christian (to be Christian) has to reject power-for-power's-sake. Either the power must give way, which defeats itself, or the Christian spirit must be sacrificed on the altar of the State, which is expressly anti-Christian.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 19:36
|
|
|
VitalSigns posted:Nah, it's all good. I tell you what, when I hear "benign theocracy", the first thing that comes to mind is the institution that clung to serfdom and feudalism until a German Catherine was as opposed to change as Peter was. She did exile constitutional monarchists to Siberia, after all.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 19:38
|
|
|
Effectronica posted:Catholics, and probably Orthodox Christians too, are more likely than average to be pro-gay in the USA. It's probably silly to try and make a point in a thread like this- but here goes: Catholics frequently are mentioned for being more liberal than most religions, and though while the social doctrine in the church probably contributes a little bit to that phenomena it is mostly the regional politics that determines how conservative/liberal the people are rather than the other way around. I realize this is the opposite of how people often think about it, but it's a much better fit of the evidence- particularly in the case of Catholicism. After all, you'd expect a top-down religion like Catholicism to have the least amount of variance in opinion (at least compared to less centralized religions) but it's not the case at all. So the obvious conclusion is that people are forming their religion and using it as a justification for their already formed beliefs rather than the church driving conservatism. Long story short Catholics are more likely than average simply because they are concentrated in the NE of the country, where support for gay marriage is extremely high. If you were to just consider Midwestern Catholics though you'd be getting a much higher percentage of polish/Irish Catholics which are much less likely than average to support gay marriage.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 19:40
|
|
|
Effectronica posted:So what would we call a hypothetical USA that was ruled by Buddhist law? quote:What should we call this proposed society, which separates out religious authority and secular (an example of a word that genuinely shifts meanings in this context) authority but still has the secular authority informed by religious values? That's what we have right now. It's just that there isn't a sole religion from which these authorities must be informed by. quote:Because saying "Theocracy requires popery!" is not convincing as a response to this system without outlining the means by which it is impossible to establish this system outlined in the prior sentence. Theocracy does require popery because that's exactly what a theocracy is. Brandor outlined this for you, but your thinking of a theonomy.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 19:42
|
|
|
Smoking Crow posted:Please stop fighting, my D&D friends gently caress you, you're not my real dad, you can't tell me what to do!
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 19:48
|
|
|
Effectronica posted:No, I asked if you were a member of an organized antiSlavic organization given your hatred and contempt for Russians expressed in the idea that a German had to "force change down their throats". Expressing skepticism about the human rights record of a particular institution is not the same as hatred or contempt of Russians, any more than criticizing the Roman Catholic Church's stances is hatred of Italians. I was just making a Catherine the Great reference; I don't think Germany should rule Russia, because every time the Germans have tried to do that it was a colossal horrorshow. Conquest is pretty evil. Effectronica posted:In addition, abortion would be legal in this same scenario because the majority of Catholics support broadly-available abortion and so do half of Orthodox Christians. And yet despite this, the Church hierarchy (who would be the ones in charge) are still staunchly opposed to abortion rights and the rights of sexual minorities. Does it matter if the laity is progressive if we're putting a reactionary church hierarchy in charge? Russians, Italians, and even Americans are pretty cool on an individual level, but that doesn't mean I automatically trust any of their churches with the Supreme Temporal Power. Edit: But hey, I didn't mean to come off as anti-Russian or anti-Christian, sorry if what I said offended you. I'll confine my jokes to anti-theocracy in general because insulting the religion of average people isn't cool. Friends?  Smoking Crow posted:Catherine was as opposed to change as Peter was. She did exile constitutional monarchists to Siberia, after all. 
VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Jul 9, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 20:06
|
|
|
Yeah it probably wouldn't be so bad.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 21:20
|
|
|
VitalSigns posted:Well yeah and she also pursued lots of horrible wars of conquest, she was a European absolute monarch after all, but my point was that reforms of serfdom (and its eventual abolishment) were imposed by emperors because that institution generally had the support of the Church. But if I am wrong and the Orthodox Church was actively pushing those reforms it'd be very interesting to read about This article (if you have JSTOR), says that while the church didn't pay much attention to it (it was seen as a secular problem and as such, one the church didn't need to stick its nose into), it defended serfs and undermined the system of serfdom through encyclicals and seminary teachings. Edit: It should also be noted that by the time of Catherine, the ROC was a branch of the government. Peter the Great had abolished the Patriarch and created the Holy Synod under the knowledge that if they preached the wrong thing, the church might not be destroyed, but all the clergy would be purged. Smoking Crow fucked around with this message at 22:54 on Jul 9, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2014 22:47
|
|
|
Smoking Crow posted:No one man is above the council that elects him. Even the Pope may be ousted by the College of Cardinals. This is not actually true, once appointed the Pope is the boss and you'd better like it. However back in the old days popes were sometimes deposed through means such as murder. As for the topic at hand I do think the country/world would be best if run by the Vatican, but I also am a strong believer in individual liberty and personal choice to an extent that deviates from historical theocratic practices, in part because I love sinning and in part because I think Christ was minimally coercive. So yes I like modernism and traditionalism together, both in fullness, neither in half-measure, let's embrace a law built on the delightful ambiguity of paradox. As a Catholic I already recognize the Pope as the supreme earthly authority so I essentially belong to a theocracy already, it is just presently in political competition with various illegitimate gang-states with substantial armies. But the good news is that when everyone does finally become a Catholic the world will be a better place.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2014 00:35
|
|
|
Kyrie eleison posted:This is not actually true, once appointed the Pope is the boss and you'd better like it. However back in the old days popes were sometimes deposed through means such as murder. I'm sorry for not knowing about Catholicism, recently the Patriarch of Jerusalem was deposed for illegally selling lands to the Israeli government. He was deposed by the council that elected him, the Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulcher. I thought it worked similarly. Smoking Crow fucked around with this message at 00:45 on Jul 10, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2014 00:39
|
|
|
Thankfully there are much better odds that the world will become fully Muslim than fully Catholic.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2014 00:41
|
|
|
Who What Now posted:Thankfully there are much better odds that the world will become fully Muslim than fully Catholic. Well, Islam is the second largest religion in the world and it has 1.59 billion adherents while Catholicism has 1.1 billion. Remember that Catholicism is a denomination. It would be like if there were over a billion Shia Muslims. Edit: And Catholicism is actually growing in Asia and Africa.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2014 00:51
|
|
|
Little Blackfly posted:I know I'm thinking of joining an organized antiSlavic organization now. Except for the Czechs, they're cool.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2014 00:53
|
|
|
Smoking Crow posted:Edit: And Catholicism is actually growing in Asia and Africa. Major religion preys upon and exploits the poor in third world countries, news at 11.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2014 00:53
|
|
|
The Pope is actually a pretty cool guy, I wouldn't mind him as a ruler. Jesuits are pretty rational thinkers. Now, the other assholes preventing him from being a decent enough humanist, those guys I could do without.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2014 01:21
|
|
|
Who What Now posted:Major religion preys upon and exploits the poor in third world countries, news at 11. Exploitation such as providing food, water, medicine, education, and protection from murderous Muslim hordes.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2014 01:28
|
|
Kyrie eleison posted:Exploitation such as providing food, water, medicine, education, and protection from murderous Muslim hordes. Or in the case of that one priest in the CAR, protection for Muslims against anti-Islamic violence.
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2014 01:29
|
|
|
Kyrie eleison posted:Exploitation such as providing food, water, medicine, education, and protection from murderous Muslim hordes. I bet that's exactly what southern slave owners told themselves to make them feel better about owning blacks, too.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2014 01:45
|
|
|
Who What Now posted:I bet that's exactly what southern slave owners told themselves to make them feel better about owning blacks, too. Probably not the islamophobic part, though.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2014 01:46
|
|
|
I can't help but feel that some unironic supporters of theocracy are mixed in with the ironic.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2014 01:52
|
|
|
Kyrie eleison posted:This is not actually true, once appointed the Pope is the boss and you'd better like it. However back in the old days popes were sometimes deposed through means such as murder. Kyrie Eleison has risen, to advocate for faux-Medieval Catholic theocracy-libertarianism once again. Can Victor be far behind? We can only hope.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2014 01:53
|
|
Who What Now posted:I bet that's exactly what southern slave owners told themselves to make them feel better about owning blacks, too. You seem to have confused the Catholic Church in California circa 1500 with the Catholic Church in Africa circa 2014. I'm not sure how this sort of mix-up happens.
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2014 01:55
|
|
|
Who What Now posted:We're not talking about Sunnis now are we? Even if the church hierarchy wouldn't be in positions by law, they would almost certainly find those positions in a weird coincidence (it wouldn't actually be a coincidence). stop makin me root for the theocrats, dumbass
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2014 03:27
|
|
|
Democracy will never die, religious law is never coming back, nuke the vatican and hail satan.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2014 03:56
|
|
|
The Catholic church is doomed. Ironically it's because sainted JPII and his buddy Ratzinger went out of their way to suppress various South American theological movements.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2014 04:14
|
|
|
Ogmius815 posted:The Catholic church is doomed. Ironically it's because sainted JPII and his buddy Ratzinger went out of their way to suppress various South American theological movements. You think the church is in trouble because it refused to accept a bunch of Marxist babble? I don't know if you've been paying attention but outside internet forums Marxism has been dead a long time now.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2014 04:18
|
|
|
Kyrie eleison posted:You think the church is in trouble because it refused to accept a bunch of Marxist babble? I don't know if you've been paying attention but outside internet forums Marxism has been dead a long time now. I don't know if you've been paying attention but the less dogmatic churches willing to consider people's actual needs are stealing catholic parishioners left and right in Latin America. EDIT: Oh it's gimmick poster Kyrie Eleison. Never mind.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2014 04:24
|
|
|
Ogmius815 posted:I don't know if you've been paying attention but the less dogmatic churches willing to consider people's actual needs are stealing catholic parishioners left and right in Latin America. Kyrie is my friend and I'm telling you, it's not a gimmick what he's posting
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2014 04:26
|
|
|
Yeah we wouldn't want a gimmick poster making GBS threads up this perfectly good thread.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2014 04:27
|
|
|
Kyrie eleison posted:You think the church is in trouble because it refused to accept a bunch of Marxist babble? I don't know if you've been paying attention but outside internet forums Marxism has been dead a long time now. Your god has been dead far longer and that hasn't shut you up now has it?
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2014 04:40
|
|
|
Ogmius815 posted:I don't know if you've been paying attention but the less dogmatic churches willing to consider people's actual needs are stealing catholic parishioners left and right in Latin America. A bunch of Latin Americans becoming evangelical and Pentecostal Protestants with mega-churches, massive televized events, faith healing, poppy worship songs, etc. is somehow because of a refusal by the church to adopt liberation theology?
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2014 04:44
|
|
|
talk poo poo get hit when it comes to liberation theology.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2014 04:48
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 17:43 |
|
|
Kyrie eleison posted:A bunch of Latin Americans becoming evangelical and Pentecostal Protestants with mega-churches, massive televized events, faith healing, poppy worship songs, etc. is somehow because of a refusal by the church to adopt liberation theology? Right because those people pretend to care about them while the Catholic church is the tough discipline daddy that refuses to consider the thoughts of people who aren't sexagenarian Italian dudes.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2014 04:51
|
|