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Countblanc posted:Isn't HP not an abstraction in 5e? Like, I'm pretty sure it's literally how many liters of blood/unbroken bones/attached limbs you have. I thought that was the rationale for no martial healing; "You can't yell someone's blood back in their body," and whatnot. That's stupid. Of course HP is an abstraction. Also there is Martial Healing in 5e.
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Jul 10, 2014 03:09
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AlphaDog posted:No, you can't. In the basic rules they'd have to teleport in while invisible and Power Word: Kill you instead. But they can't be flying at the same time. They would also have to be level 17 know were they are going (Or the Teleport could send them far far off target), and make sure that the enemy they are wasting their only 9th level spell slot on has less then 100 hp. In fact if you are trying to assassinate an enemy leader in this scenario there is massive chance of this missing. MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 03:24 on Jul 10, 2014 |
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Jul 10, 2014 03:20
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Thalantos posted:Personally, I don't see the need to "balance" out monsters. The PCs in my game know that random encounter rolls esp in the wilderness, and certain areas, are inherently dangerous and you'll probably die if you fight them. How can the players "do research and prepare" out side of the box solutions for random encounters. With a base of balanced monsters you can make unbalanced encounters. With a base of unbalanced monsters you will never be able to make balanced encounters.
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Jul 10, 2014 03:31
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HP is an abstraction just like it's always been:Basic Rules posted:Hit points represent a combination of physical and
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Jul 10, 2014 06:38
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Pumpkin Pirate posted:HP is an abstraction just like it's always been: When I played D&D (Red Box basic!) for the first time when I was like 10, I always liked to imagine that higher level characters just got tougher, like fighters had more muscle and blood to get chopped off as they leveled up. When I got a little older, and started viewing HP as an abstraction, poo poo like "cure light wounds" and healing potions being full restores for low level characters but virtually nothing for higher levels, it started to make a lot less sense. I think I eventually justified it as a tolerance that formed against healing magic over time as characters were exposed to more and more of it over the course of their careers. I even gave one of my PCs a healing potion/magic addiction once which was pretty entertaining. And thus ends this pointless derail.
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Jul 10, 2014 13:50
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Underwhelmed posted:When I played D&D (Red Box basic!) for the first time when I was like 10, I always liked to imagine that higher level characters just got tougher, like fighters had more muscle and blood to get chopped off as they leveled up. When I got a little older, and started viewing HP as an abstraction, poo poo like "cure light wounds" and healing potions being full restores for low level characters but virtually nothing for higher levels, it started to make a lot less sense. I think I eventually justified it as a tolerance that formed against it over time as characters were exposed to more and more of it over the course of their careers. Oh, and then they just exacerbated it by making a 4e (not really) second wind mechanic for the Fighter without the 4e healing structure, so there's also the theorycrafted 'problem' of Fighters taking 20+ second winds a day to heal any injury.
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Jul 10, 2014 14:00
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Littlefinger posted:This is exactly the problem 4e fixed by introducing healing surges. Luckily, we got rid of that terrible abstract dissociated mechanic so we have to deal with either the meatpoints or the abstract-luckpoints-but-then-healing-makes-no-sense problem yet again. Those make much more sense, because tradition. Yeah I actually liked a lot of little things in 4e (the healing surge bit in particular) and wish they had copied forward an awful lot more of it in 5th.
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Jul 10, 2014 14:03
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Well it didn't feel right, all that 4e stuff. which has me thinking. We give it a lot of crap, but feel *is* a legitimate aspect of game design, we're often irrational creatures and when attempting to appeal to irrationality sometimes that means going for a certain feel despite what logic might suggest. However. The ludicrous notion that feel should somehow trump good design, or good math, or any of the other behind-the-scenes functionalities of a system completely misses the point. Primarily because feel, though legitimate, is also completely about window dressing and assertions on the part of the game as to how its systems should be employed. Suggesting that certain mechanics are *forcing* a certain feel would be like believing the Red M&Ms taste differently than the Blue M&Ms. You might feel that way, but that's because you're dumb. edit: In short: I bet you could take almost any TTRPG system, and through careful consideration, get it to feel like D&D despite wildly different mechanics. treeboy fucked around with this message at 14:19 on Jul 10, 2014 |
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Jul 10, 2014 14:16
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Underwhelmed posted:Yeah I actually liked a lot of little things in 4e (the healing surge bit in particular) and wish they had copied forward an awful lot more of it in 5th. Here's what's insane: 5e has healing surges. They're called "hit dice", you spend them to regain hit points after short rests, and the interesting thing about them is that while a full night's rest restores all your HP, it only restores up to half your maximum hit dice. This means that unlike surges, hit dice can to some extent model multi-day burnout/exhaustion. But... nothing seems to use them. You can totally imagine martial healing being like "a creature that can hear you spends a hit die" (and maybe even rolls it twice and uses the better result, or maximizes it, or whatever) while magical healing consumes spell slots but doesn't care about your hit dice at all. And yet...
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Jul 10, 2014 15:18
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My guess is that nothing is tied to the Hit Dice mechanic because there will be a module that eliminates them for Old School play. The more intertwined mechanics are the harder they are to turn on and off.
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Jul 10, 2014 15:22
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Ferrinus posted:Here's what's insane: 5e has healing surges. They're called "hit dice", you spend them to regain hit points after short rests, and the interesting thing about them is that while a full night's rest restores all your HP, it only restores up to half your maximum hit dice. This means that unlike surges, hit dice can to some extent model multi-day burnout/exhaustion. weren't there feats in one of the playtest packets that used hit dice as a resource or am i just imagining some better game?
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Jul 10, 2014 15:32
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whydirt posted:My guess is that nothing is tied to the Hit Dice mechanic because there will be a module that eliminates them for Old School play. The more intertwined mechanics are the harder they are to turn on and off. Old school play is "everyone who wants that is still playing 3.5 or Pathfinder (or older I guess)". I'm not sure why they think that market needs another entry outside of "we can't sell those people new books otherwise". Which speaking of dumb marketing, how are WotC going to get a foothold on a market in which their chief competitor essentially gives away their full rule set? I have access to all of Pathfinders poo poo and outside if a $5 App Store purchase for a compendium, I have spent zero on it. I have friends that buy poo poo loads of Paizo's books despite the availability of the actual content so clearly Paizo makes money. I guess I have never seem actual sales figures though.
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Jul 10, 2014 15:46
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Ferrinus posted:Here's what's insane: 5e has healing surges. They're called "hit dice", you spend them to regain hit points after short rests, and the interesting thing about them is that while a full night's rest restores all your HP, it only restores up to half your maximum hit dice. This means that unlike surges, hit dice can to some extent model multi-day burnout/exhaustion. Anyway, this is a great idea and I really hope that their 'modules' scheme will introduce something like this, but just bolting something on the core might be too little. Because that was just the point of 4e healing surges: that everything used them. Every non-daily effect that healed you made you spend a healing surge, so you could not just go on forever with a bag full of CLW wands. Their value followed hp inflation closely, so a healing spell fixed an injured adventurer just the same on 1st and 21st level. Littlefinger fucked around with this message at 15:52 on Jul 10, 2014 |
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Jul 10, 2014 15:48
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Underwhelmed posted:
By giving away a stripped down, basic version of their rules and pandering harder, apparently. It's going to be interesting to see if the combination of community integration and brand loyalty are enough to pull people away from Pathfinder. I think the first year sales are going to be driven entirely by curiosity, specifically people waiting for the PHB, then waiting for the DMG when it doesn't include magic items, and then the MM for completion. But I don't see PF players bailing out. If anything Next is hoping to become the Wii 2nd system that collects dust between visits from your nephew.
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Jul 10, 2014 16:47
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Underwhelmed posted:Which speaking of dumb marketing, how are WotC going to get a foothold on a market in which their chief competitor essentially gives away their full rule set? I like the lack of a clear antecedent for that second "their" because it is correct either way you read it. PeterWeller fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Jul 10, 2014 |
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Jul 10, 2014 16:51
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PeterWeller posted:I like the lack of a clear antecedent for that second "their" because it is correct either way you read it. Man I need to get more sleep (advice: never have children) my ability to communicate is going down the toilet. I will pretend I made that joke on purpose.
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Jul 10, 2014 18:10
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5e gives away part of it's rule set.
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Jul 10, 2014 18:22
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Underwhelmed posted:Man I need to get more sleep (advice: never have children) my ability to communicate is going down the toilet. I will pretend I made that joke on purpose. Haha. Don't beat yourself up. It was clear what you meant; I just took the opportunity to goof on the OGL fallout.
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Jul 10, 2014 18:23
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Even more tweets if you don't visit the other thread, also I don't think anything is actually repeated, though one thing is mentioned twice using different wording.quote:@s_grindeland : Liked playtest Greataxe critting for more damage vs Greatsword as more reliable damage. Now only flavor & gp favor the Greataxe quote:@Brail4 : Elf Trance says, 'semi-conscious',how aware are they during trance? quote:@Plaguescarred : Doffing armor says it can take half time with help, could a shield be doffed as a bonus action rather than an action with help? quote:@rhykker : Would love for you to check out our #DnD livestream social experiment; viewers control the PC! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrwuLrpbY0M&list=UURl31PWkfF0a3j3hiDRaCGA … quote:@obsid : Can a someone use the "Hide" action in half cover, or three quarter cover? (in addition to total cover & heavily obscured) quote:@FoldableHuman : Are Concentration save DCs supposed to become literally impossible? http://i.imgur.com/iafx6WJ.png quote:@sevensideddie : How are Long Rest interruptions meant to work? The land is in confusion & dismay! http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?730649-5e-So-if-a-long-rest-is-interrupted-you-start-all-over … http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/42123/does-a-short-combat-or-casting-one-spell-interrupt-a-long-rest …
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Jul 10, 2014 19:01
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'People stop leveling at 10, so we sped up the levels that they don't play'. Fantastic. It's still a bit disturbing the amount of 'DM Call' responses MM fires off.
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Jul 10, 2014 19:23
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Hit Dice are the results of finding the solution to a problem, and then realizing your core audience doesn't want that problem to go away, but desperately wanting to shove it in anyways. Basically the grog crowd would never agree to ~*~magic~*~ healing being restricted in any way (it was one of the complaints about 4e's healing surges), so they couldn't use it for that. And up until very recently there was no sort of "martial healing" and frankly never will be because Mearls adamantly hates the Warlord. So it can't be used for there. But by god we are crowbaring this idea into the mechanics somehow!
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Jul 10, 2014 19:27
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IT BEGINS posted:'People stop leveling at 10, so we sped up the levels that they don't play'. Fantastic. I saw that too, it's amazing how they can consistently look at a problem and then decide to "fix" something not the problem. And what players is he talking about? Pathfinder? 4e? 3x? 2e? 5e?
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Jul 10, 2014 19:34
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You know what to do about most campaigns most ending around level 10? Make your basic rules only go to level 10. *drops mic*
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Jul 10, 2014 19:59
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Yeah, don't bother trying to make high level play more enjoyable or anything. Just throw it out. :rolleyes:
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Jul 10, 2014 20:08
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In the free game that's supposed to introduce people to the hobby, yes absolutely throw it out. D&D was originally designed to top out with 6th level spells and higher level stuff was just tacked out without any forethought or rebalancing. Levels 10+ probably should look more like legends from mythology and superheroes and I think the game would be healthier if it was partitioned off from the lower level more mundance dungeon crawler stuff. whydirt fucked around with this message at 20:19 on Jul 10, 2014 |
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Jul 10, 2014 20:17
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Why? It doesn't hurt or complicate the 1-10 stuff. It's work they have already done for the full game. The only upside is the potential sales upside: "buy the books if you want to advance further." But there are already other sales incentives built in.
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Jul 10, 2014 20:24
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Why are you guys arguing about including or excluding broken high level stuff when the option is there to address the mechanical problems of the high level game instead? People don't stop playing at level 10+ because there's a hard limit on how often people can meet with their friends, it's because the game becomes bloated and unplayable. I have concerns that 5e will have the same problems - clerics will become healbots at high levels because there aren't any effective healing spells that don't take your entire action to cast, hit point damage becomes a worse and worse way of dealing with threats since HP inflates far faster than weapon damage does, and spells targeting your bad saves become impossible to resist.
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Jul 10, 2014 20:42
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Gort posted:Why are you guys arguing about including or excluding broken high level stuff when the option is there to address the mechanical problems of the high level game instead? People don't stop playing at level 10+ because there's a hard limit on how often people can meet with their friends, it's because the game becomes bloated and unplayable. That's my point. Don't throw it out. Fix it.
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Jul 10, 2014 20:49
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Gort posted:People don't stop playing at level 10+ because there's a hard limit on how often people can meet with their friends, it's because the game becomes bloated and unplayable. IME, it's got little to do with how bloated the system becomes, and everything to do with the fact that keeping a group of people playing together for a year+ is very, very hard. I can count on one hand the amount of groups I've seen stick together for 6+ months. On the other hand, I've seen hundreds of groups run short adventures.
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Jul 10, 2014 20:52
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IT BEGINS posted:IME, it's got little to do with how bloated the system becomes, and everything to do with the fact that keeping a group of people playing together for a year+ is very, very hard. I can count on one hand the amount of groups I've seen stick together for 6+ months. On the other hand, I've seen hundreds of groups run short adventures. Yeah, I've been lucky enough to have kept the same core group of players for over a decade now, but even our campaigns will sometimes end prematurely because of scheduling problems or turnover with members new to the group. Still, that doesn't mean one shouldn't address high level play. AD&D actually did a lot to differentiate it from low level play and explicitly told DMs that it should move away from dungeon crawling and towards the players becoming movers and shakers. WotC editions largely ignored this. 3E nixed the tools with which warriors and rogues could have great impact. One of 4E's weaknesses is that high level play is just a crazier version of low level play.
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Jul 10, 2014 21:24
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We kind of need monsters before we can judge High Level play for 5e as well.
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Jul 10, 2014 22:02
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is there a DM thread? My friends have decided I shall be the source of their entertainment and I need some advice on setting a creepy tone for our first 5e campaign. I considered just reading from the rules to scare them. 
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Jul 10, 2014 22:43
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treeboy posted:is there a DM thread? My friends have decided I shall be the source of their entertainment and I need some advice on setting a creepy tone for our first 5e campaign. Fedora wearing villians. All female party. Done. On a serious note, it looks like I'm running the starter set adventure so DM advice really would be welcome. I have a long-term group, going on fifteen years together in one form or another and we've been on Pathfinder since 4e hit. I'm cautiously optimistic about this ruleset so far but it seems needlessly vague in some areas, and overly complicated in others.
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Jul 10, 2014 22:53
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Ryuujin posted:Even more tweets if you don't visit the other thread, also I don't think anything is actually repeated, though one thing is mentioned twice using different wording.
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Jul 10, 2014 23:24
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I don't know if this is new info, but I just learned it. PHB races: everything from the playtest, except Kender and Warforged which will be in the DMG. All classes have 3 archetypes except Cleric (7), Wizard (8), and Sorcerer (2). A little annoyed at only 3 archetypes for most classes, but then they gotta sell Complete Fighter: Martial Prowess III at some point.
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Jul 10, 2014 23:31
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treeboy posted:Wizard (8) Naturally.
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Jul 10, 2014 23:50
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Poor 'forged, forever optional (why the hell did 13th Age ghettoize the non-Fauxlkien races anyw-? oh).
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Jul 10, 2014 23:53
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Mad Jaqk posted:Naturally. well i'm assuming one archetype for each school, which at its base conceit isn't bad. But as the evoker has no obvious deficiencies it suggests that the various wizard archetypes are just different ways of being more awesome.
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Jul 10, 2014 23:57
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Correct it's just Evoker, Necromancer, Transmuter and the like. Oh and all of them will probably have the "School Name" Savant ability.
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Jul 11, 2014 00:14
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treeboy posted:is there a DM thread? My friends have decided I shall be the source of their entertainment and I need some advice on setting a creepy tone for our first 5e campaign. You can find the generic GMing advice thread here: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3150535&pagenumber=1 If you want to ask D&D Next specific questions, this is probably the place.
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Jul 11, 2014 00:18
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