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The Kenster posted:An entire zero people who have taken a life, let alone multiple. I don't quite see why you are so bent making a case that Blackbeard is totes cool when the only time we have ever seen him not be an explicitly conniving badman is when he ate some pie and gave a speech about pirate dreams.
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Jul 10, 2014 16:39
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Veskit posted:In a world where one of the protagonist murdered an entire city for dubious reasons, yeah it can be ambiguous. Whiskey Peak was an entire town of Baroques Works who intended to kill/capture the crew. It's not really that dubious. Comic fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Jul 10, 2014 |
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Jul 10, 2014 17:05
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Veskit posted:It's easily arguable that Luffy is more evil than Blackbeard for harboring so many mass murdering fuckwads but nobody would look at him as evil. It's perspective and relativity. Uh, I think you have that backwards. It's pretty safe to assume that at least Zoro and Robin have killed a few people before joining the crew, but did you miss the part of the war arc where Blackbeard recruited literally the worst criminals in the world to join his crew? Still, as far as One Piece villains go, I would say Blackbeard is less evil than most because aside from the sack of Drum Island and loving up that one town to show off his powers he's mostly been going after other pirates. Compared to people like Crocodile, Enel, Moria and Doflamingo who murdered or exploited a huge number of civilians he's much more straightforward about his goals. Really, he's like Luffy with a bit more planning, a lot less compassion and a couple of ugly shortcuts towards his dream. I can't wait to see his flashback a decade or so from now because I expect Oda has something special planned for a guy named after the most famous pirate in the world. When he's finally defeated I expect it to be because of his own hubris somehow or betrayal by his crew.
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Jul 10, 2014 17:23
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I just got to the start of the Ace and Blackbeard fight. The guy Blackbeard killed did know that the fruit he found was the one Blackbeard had been searching for for decades, and that does make him a bit of a dick. I still say Blackbeard's straight up evil. He killed a friend in cold blood for power. He betrays people regularly. He literally turns into darkness.
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Jul 10, 2014 17:28
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Wittgen posted:I just got to the start of the Ace and Blackbeard fight. The guy Blackbeard killed did know that the fruit he found was the one Blackbeard had been searching for for decades, and that does make him a bit of a dick. I still say Blackbeard's straight up evil. He killed a friend in cold blood for power. He betrays people regularly. He literally turns into darkness. I wonder if we'll get a parallel moment to Whitebeard getting stabbed by Squardo with Blackbeard getting stabbed or betrayed by an ally hungry for power?
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Jul 10, 2014 17:33
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Wittgen posted:I just got to the start of the Ace and Blackbeard fight. The guy Blackbeard killed did know that the fruit he found was the one Blackbeard had been searching for for decades, and that does make him a bit of a dick. I still say Blackbeard's straight up evil. He killed a friend in cold blood for power. He betrays people regularly. He literally turns into darkness. It makes someone a huge dick to go and stomp on your dreams purposely when "he's your brother". There's wiggle room to make a case for Blackbeard whether or not he's evil, and it's not black and white as originally stated. I mean in this world blackbeard is like a semi dark grey in terms of evilness. It's nowhere near the level of someone like a Crocodile, and it's not like Luffy is on the opposite spectrum of evil and is a good person. He's not, but he's certainly not evil. Well he's a good person but I mean he's also a pirate. One piece as a whole is hands down the most morally diverse manga out there and it definitely doesn't have "black and white" moral levels. Blackbeard is on the evil spectrum probably, but it's a spectrum. Star Platinum posted:Uh, I think you have that backwards. It's pretty safe to assume that at least Zoro and Robin have killed a few people before joining the crew, but did you miss the part of the war arc where Blackbeard recruited literally the worst criminals in the world to join his crew? You could make the same "reformed" argument. Blackbeards crew is probably worse, but then again we don't know enough about how lovely his crew members have been vs what the real criminals of the straw hat have done (robin/zoro). The Kenster posted:An entire zero people who have taken a life, let alone multiple. I don't quite see why you are so bent making a case that Blackbeard is totes cool when the only time we have ever seen him not be an explicitly conniving badman is when he ate some pie and gave a speech about pirate dreams. No way in hell zoro and robin haven't straight up murdered people. No, loving, way. She was the right hand person to loving crocodile. Also I'm pretty sure you can't shonen your way out of the whiskey peak incident. Bisse posted:I get what you're trying to say but in this case it is as black-and-white as it god drat gets. He wanted something for the benefit of himself only, and he took it and killed anyone who stood in the way. What else should he do to qualify as evil, run babies in the mixer? Crocodile is black and white. loving Coby is black and white as it gets. Blackbeard and Luffy are not. That's all I'm trying to get across.
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Jul 10, 2014 18:00
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Zoro told Mr. 1 that Baroque Works sent someone to recruit him and he just killed him, and Robin probably had to kill someone even before Crocodile, since she was on the run her whole life.
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Jul 10, 2014 18:33
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Blackbeard is pretty unambiguously portrayed as being a bad dude. You keep bringing up how the Strawhats have killed people (which is kinda but not entirely true) but none of those people were ~nakama~ which is the big thing. Teach killed a bro for a selfish desire, and has been shown to be cowardly. That's a big black stamp saying "evil dude" as far as this manga goes.
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Jul 10, 2014 18:38
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I just want to see wht circumstance in which Thatch died. There's a pretty significant difference between Involuntary Manslaughter and First Degree Murder. All we know is Blackbeard is responsible for Thatch being killed. The way Blackbeard phrased it sounded like there was more to it than him just stabbing Thatch in the back, at least motivation wise. I'm not saying BB is a good dude either, just I want to see what end of the spectrum he's on with regards to evil. anime was right fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Jul 10, 2014 |
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Jul 10, 2014 18:56
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Blackbeard also sacked the Drum Kingdom and conquered enough territory to be considered an Emperor, although we don't know the exact details. He didn't seem to care about whether he was killing civilians when he fought Ace. He hangs out with people like Shiliew. Blackbeard is definitely evil. I'm not saying Luffy is really a good guy either (he doesn't seem to care much about the long-term consequences of his actions), but he doesn't attack civilian bystanders or stab allies in the back. Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 19:04 on Jul 10, 2014 |
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Jul 10, 2014 19:01
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While I won't deny that Zoro and Robin likely killed a number of people, it's all been out of self defense. At Whiskey Peak Zoro was initially attacked by Baroque Works and therefore was defending himself. And for Robin, she's been hunted by the WG, and if she has killed anyone it would have been because she'd have been killed otherwise. Killing out of self defense doesn't make you a bad person. Killing indiscriminately does make you a bad person and that isn't how the Straw Hats work.
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Jul 10, 2014 19:18
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It wasn't self defense when she tried to murder Crocodile. Which in technically is attempting to murder a "nakama". Also the gently caress, does it make it easier to swallow that blackbeard probably murdered a bad person also? Does it change his level of evilness? VVVVV OHhh bleh it's been a while. I thought she tried to kill him first especially with how premeditated it was. Veskit fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Jul 10, 2014 |
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Jul 10, 2014 19:19
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Veskit posted:It wasn't self defense when she tried to murder Crocodile. Yes it was. After she 'read' the Poneglyph he said outright that he was going to kill her.
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Jul 10, 2014 19:21
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Blackbeard is at best one of, if not absolutely, the darkest shades of grey in the series. We may not have seen enough of him to make a perfect read on his morality, but by looking at how he's been portrayed we can make a good guess that he is going to be for all intents and purposes one of the series' antagonists, possibly only beaten out in bad-dude-ness by the very top people of the World Government depending on how the truth of the Void Century plays out.
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Jul 10, 2014 19:32
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Veskit posted:It wasn't self defense when she tried to murder Crocodile. Which in technically is attempting to murder a "nakama". One Piece is one of the most black and white mangas in existence. It's a shounen manga and you're looking 100x more into poo poo than you should. Luffy is as white as white can be. He never hurts civilians, nor does his crew, the most he does is property damage (which... every shounen hero does). Blackbeard specifically goes to Impel Down, goes down to the lowest of the low, and goes 'hey, I hear you're huge murderous bastards. Join my crew!' He's not good. He's not grey. He's a grade A. evil person and you're arguing for no reason. He found out Thatch had the fruit he wanted. He decided to murder thatch for it. He then ran off, intentionally lured Ace into a fight so he could catch him, wrecked an entire town, and ended up wrecking an entire kingdom all after Thatch's murder. Guy isn't Doffy, but he's not 'grey'. He's not even a 'dark grey'. He's still got a black hat to go with his beard. Edit: Also, literally everyone who was on Whiskey Peak was an assassin. Literally everyone. And Zoro still specifically used the blunt sides of his sword to minimize casualties. And it's shown to still be intact by one of the cover arcs. Edit2: Also, you mentioned that Blackbeard is literally Dark Luffy, and that's true - where Luffy specifically avoids killing, avoids betrayal, avoids hurting people in his quest, Blackbeard will lie, cheat, steal, betray, murder... He recruited multiple mass murderers to his crew because of their skills, not in spite of them. KittyEmpress fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Jul 10, 2014 |
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Jul 10, 2014 19:37
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I don't know guys, Mango is pretty grey. Dude loves his crew/family and seems to have had a pretty bad childhood. Sure there's the whole Dressrosa thing, but it's not like he personally killed anyone there and morality isn't really about good and evil...
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Jul 10, 2014 19:57
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LOU BEGAS MUSTACHE posted:I just want to see wht circumstance in which Thatch died. I think it's pretty cut and dry from what was said in the manga. Thatch finds the fruit and Whitebeard's rules say finders eaters, Blackbeard probably panics because his decades-long wait is about to be wasted and kills Thatch almost immediately before he can eat the fruit. I don't think BB is the kind of guy who would even try to ask him for the fruit first.
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Jul 10, 2014 20:01
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all of the badguys in One Piece are legitimately Bad Guys, but some of them happen to be more sympathetic or well developed villains compared to others. i just want to know if Blackbeard is evil, amoral, or just excessively selfish. Star Platinum posted:I think it's pretty cut and dry from what was said in the manga. Thatch finds the fruit and Whitebeard's rules say finders eaters, Blackbeard probably panics because his decades-long wait is about to be wasted and kills Thatch almost immediately before he can eat the fruit. I don't think BB is the kind of guy who would even try to ask him for the fruit first. blackbeard asked ace to join his crew... blackbeard seems to avoid conflict if possible. he wanted to join the schichibukai without doing anything first as well. he is NOT a good guy, but he is definitely a schemer, and every time he gets into a fight, he doesnt like it, he explicitly attempts to sway whitebeard out of attacking him. why would he want to fight thatch if he could help otherwise? it absolutely fits his character. anime was right fucked around with this message at 20:06 on Jul 10, 2014 |
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Jul 10, 2014 20:02
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The Marines are about the only real characters approaching real moral grayness. Obstensibly acting to protect people from pirates and other threats, but at the same time perpetrating and supporting the World Government, which represents a lot of morally bad areas (institutionalized class systems, slavery, etc). Even within them, however, most individual characters are pretty unambiguously Good (Garp, et al) or Evil (Akainu, etc).
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Jul 10, 2014 20:05
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LOU BEGAS MUSTACHE posted:all of the badguys in One Piece are legitimately Bad Guys, but some of them happen to be more sympathetic or well developed villains compared to others. There's a pretty clear difference between betraying and murdering somebody in cold blood vs getting in a fight with a similarly powerful person and risking your hide 
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Jul 10, 2014 20:28
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Tollymain posted:There's a pretty clear difference between betraying and murdering somebody in cold blood vs getting in a fight with a similarly powerful person and risking your hide right, just like fighting thatch. who he probably wanted to avoid fighting. because blackbeard has a history of doing that three times already. how hard is it to understand that i dont totally buy that blackbeard just straight up saw the fruit and shanked thatch, and that sort of moment reveals a lot about a character, which we know nothing about. other than: thatch died. blackbeard is responsible for death. blackbeard took fruit.
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Jul 10, 2014 20:37
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Did Luffy not purposely release a metric fuckload of super dangerous prisoners JUST to go save his brother who was a criminal sentenced to death? How is that morally acceptable behavior?  KittyEmpress posted:Edit2: Also, you mentioned that Blackbeard is literally Dark Luffy, and that's true - where Luffy specifically avoids killing, avoids betrayal, avoids hurting people in his quest, Blackbeard will lie, cheat, steal, betray, murder... He recruited multiple mass murderers to his crew because of their skills, not in spite of them. Luffy is definintely Blackbeards counterpart, but because of that I can't say Luffy is morally good/right/just while Blackbeard is pure evil. Luffy is a darker shade of white and Blackbeard is a lighter shade of black. There's a spectrum and to just say Luffy good Blackbeard evil is wrong. Luffy in fact has punched two inarguably good characters in Garp and Coby. On the same loving day, TO BREAK OUT A CONVICT! He's not a good guy in any traditional sense! Veskit fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Jul 10, 2014 |
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Jul 10, 2014 20:41
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Luffy also doesn't give a poo poo about anybody's problems unless it involves a friend of his.
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Jul 10, 2014 20:43
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Broseph Brostar posted:Luffy also doesn't give a poo poo about anybody's problems unless it involves a friend of his. Give him meat and you'll be his best friend though.
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Jul 10, 2014 20:49
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Veskit posted:Did Luffy not purposely release a metric fuckload of super dangerous prisoners JUST to go save his brother who was a criminal sentenced to death? How is that morally acceptable behavior? Are these the same super dangerous prisoners who were put there because they were ruled guilty by other criminals? And who were ruled as dangerous by the WG because they could be a threat to the system? Or do you think that 8 year old Robin deserved to die or be sent to Impel Down because she was educated? You seem to be worried a lot about Luffy releasing people who may or may not be bad people based solely on their refusal to abide by a horribly corrupt government's laws.
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Jul 10, 2014 21:25
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"d[-.- posted:b" post="432017772"] No I'm pretty sure at least a couple of them were put in prison for literally causing a catastrophic drought, having thousands of people killed, and starting a civil war for personal benefit. Now they're off galavanting in the new world.
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Jul 10, 2014 21:33
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Veskit posted:No I'm pretty sure at least a couple of them were put in prison for literally causing a catastrophic drought, having thousands of people killed, and starting a civil war for personal benefit. And another one was there because he wouldn't watch his old buddy die while fighting his buddy's armada. Who knows what the newer Blackbeard crew did. Hell, I think one was in there just because he was too loving big.
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Jul 10, 2014 21:37
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Veskit posted:One piece as a whole is hands down the most morally diverse manga out there and it definitely doesn't have "black and white" moral levels. Blackbeard is on the evil spectrum probably, but it's a spectrum. You should read Hunter x Hunter it's pretty good! (And this is just WSJ stuff off the top of my head.)
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Jul 10, 2014 21:38
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Rudoku posted:And another one was there because he wouldn't watch his old buddy die while fighting his buddy's armada. Who knows what the newer Blackbeard crew did. Hell, I think one was in there just because he was too loving big. You're missing the point that it's dumb to consider Luffy strictly "a good guy". He's not. He does really loving terrible things. He's not necessarily a bad guy. We also can't say how evil Blackbeard is. He's certainly is bad/evil from the info we've been given not as loving evil as Mango. There's a spectrum and it's interesting to think over where people sit. What's not interesting is having to argue that Luffy is good. He's not. Different sure, but he is most certainly not definitively good. Oda could have gone in that direction and it showed in romance dawn, but he didn't for a reason. Luffy is morally ambiguous because he will always choose the path of good over one of evil, but that doesn't mean he doesn't walk down really loving dark paths sometimes. He's a pirate, he steals, he helps convicts escapes (legitimately bad ones too), and he beats up good people when they get in his way. Prison Warden posted:You should read Hunter x Hunter it's pretty good! (And this is just WSJ stuff off the top of my head.) That one I am 100% waiting for it to be done done. Veskit fucked around with this message at 21:45 on Jul 10, 2014 |
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Jul 10, 2014 21:42
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Shoren posted:And for Robin, she's been hunted by the WG, and if she has killed anyone it would have been because she'd have been killed otherwise. Killing out of self defense doesn't make you a bad person. Killing indiscriminately does make you a bad person and that isn't how the Straw Hats work. So killing innocent people obeying their orders from the World Government and doing their job trying to provide for their families is ok because self defense?
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Jul 10, 2014 21:54
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|Ziggy| posted:So killing innocent people obeying their orders from the World Government and doing their job trying to provide for their families is ok because self defense? The Straw Hats don't kill people, just beat them up. Sometimes beating them pretty. Though I'm not totally sure what happened to that schlub in Skypeia who pissed off Robin and there was also the one time Luffy punched a man so hard he became a flower.
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Jul 10, 2014 22:02
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|Ziggy| posted:So killing innocent people obeying their orders from the World Government and doing their job trying to provide for their families is ok because self defense? If they're going to go hunt down and kill a little girl (or send her off to Impel Down) on shaky grounds, yeah, they deserve whatever they get.
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Jul 10, 2014 22:07
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You people just don't get it. The level of moral ambiguity in One Piece rivals that of The Wire because
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Jul 10, 2014 22:11
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|Ziggy| posted:So killing innocent people obeying their orders from the World Government and doing their job trying to provide for their families is ok because self defense? What exactly makes these people innocent?
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Jul 10, 2014 22:20
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AshB posted:You people just don't get it. The level of moral ambiguity in One Piece rivals that of The Wire because Oh man, what if Omar joined the crew?
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Jul 10, 2014 22:24
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|Ziggy| posted:So killing innocent people obeying their orders from the World Government and doing their job trying to provide for their families is ok because self defense?
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Jul 10, 2014 22:27
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gently caress trophy 2k14 posted:Oh man, what if Omar joined the crew? You come at the Pirate King, you best not miss.
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Jul 10, 2014 22:47
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Are people seriously arguing that Blackbeard is not evil? Like, really? He killed his brother because he found a devil fruit he wanted and Blackbeard does not seem at all apologetic for this. He specifically sought out the most vile, cruel, and evil criminals in the world to join his crew (didn't he also choose them by having them fight to the death). He killed Whitebeard because he had a devil fruit he wanted, and as he was a member of Whitebeard's crew he would've acted like a father to Teach. He kidnapped Bonney and basically offered her to be his slave. Where is the moral ambiguity? It doesn't exist. Blackbeard is an evil guy through and through, and the fact that we don't know all the details of his murder of Thatch doesn't change this.
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Jul 10, 2014 23:55
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Octopode posted:The Marines are about the only real characters approaching real moral grayness. Obstensibly acting to protect people from pirates and other threats, but at the same time perpetrating and supporting the World Government, which represents a lot of morally bad areas (institutionalized class systems, slavery, etc). Even within them, however, most individual characters are pretty unambiguously Good (Garp, et al) or Evil (Akainu, etc). I'm not sure Akainu is completely evil. His methods definitely go too far, but aside from Ohara (where he was trying to minimize the risk of someone getting a super WMD), he doesn't go around terrorizing innocent people. A better example of a completely evil World Government person would be Spandam, who actually wanted to use the super WMD.
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Jul 10, 2014 23:55
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Silver2195 posted:I'm not sure Akainu is completely evil. His methods definitely go too far, but aside from Ohara (where he was trying to minimize the risk of someone getting a super WMD), he doesn't go around terrorizing innocent people. He was literally about to murder Coby for speaking his mind.
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Jul 11, 2014 00:03
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