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CyberLord XP posted:I like keeping wagons cheap and just use them to block LOS and tank shock if they live long enough to deliver their package. Hmm. That's a good idea, actually. It'd be better to be moving them full out then shooting with them ahead of time, wouldn't it? Maybe I'll drop the guns from mine in and bring back the lootas, in my three-meganobs-wagons version of the list! Are grot riggers worthwhile? If I drop them and all the guns from the wagons, I get 120 points back, enough to get eight lootas and have a bit of change left over to upgrade something. Worth it? Esser-Z fucked around with this message at 14:44 on Jul 10, 2014 |
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Jul 10, 2014 14:36
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Power Player posted:Do you think the Deffrolla, nerfed as it is, is still worth the five points over the Ram? Nope, if I have 5 extra points that are absolutely burning a hole in my pocket I'd just throw a Rokkit on something.
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Jul 10, 2014 14:46
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Power Player posted:I know the point of a Battlewagon is to shove boys down someone's throat, but is a Kannon ever worth it? I mean, if your BW lives to deliver the boys, it's only ten points to throw out a small blast every turn. Given that it's entirely possible you will have Battlewagons carrying things other than mobs of twenty Boyz these days, it just might work, yes. A "guntank" Battlewagon may actually have some place, although I fully admit it's not something I have really picked at very much so far. But slapping the big gun on top and then a cluster of Kannons/Rokkits/etc below that may very well be quite viable if you're trucking around with something like Lootas or Tankbustas inside where you don't really want to move 12" anyways. A Deffroll, since it's a lot cheaper, could be useful; it brings your Ram hit from S9 to S10 and could grind someone up if they decide to Death or Glory you. It probably wouldn't be my first choice, but on the other hand it's cheap enough that you wouldn't really need to feel bad about taking it. Moola posted:Like what? Honestly, there's a lot more than that. Even if you assume an environment similar to the ones that BAO, NOVA, etc are adopting (i.e. no Unbound, max two detachments) the presence of Objective Secured and the way scoring works now really changes how a lot of armies will play. You don't need a troop squad to sit back and hold a home objective anymore- those Devastators/Broadsides/Havocs/Lootas can do it just fine most of the time. Objectives are also placed before you know which side of the table you'll get, so in Crusade, Big Guns, and Scouring you will see a LOT more objectives placed towards the center of the field- and that means more armies will have to move into midfield in order to win the game (rather than just sitting in their deployment zone) and that means more short-ranged engagements in that area of the field and more chances for assaults. Explodes! also not being present on the "normal" damage chart (bar an AP2/1 weapon) also makes vehicles more resilient as a whole, and combined with them gaining scoring status again that means a significant shift in the sort of armies people will field. Changes to the Jink rule also mean that many units can be more survivable against shooting than they were before, but at the cost of worse firepower of their own. And that's just for starters. There's also the FAQs that are no longer present (and thus revert units and rules to their original functionality), the psychic phase, new psychic powers and disciplines, new shooting rules, etc, etc, etc. In some ways, 7E is just 6E with a new cover slapped on it, but in many other ways it is very different. I think that's one of the things people have trouble understanding when it comes to game balance- there are so many things that factor into how the game works that it is very hard to predict how they will all play out. Not that GW necessarily puts their best foot forward in that regard, but neither is it as simple as some people seem to think.
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Jul 10, 2014 15:17
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Dumb question that I think I'm right about: you cannot upgrade the Techmarine Gunner that comes with the Thunderfire Cannon, correct?
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Jul 10, 2014 16:39
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Sure you can, you can put him in a drop pod (with his gun) Otherwise no, a Techmarine and a Techmarine Gunner are very different things.
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Jul 10, 2014 16:46
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PantsOptional posted:Dumb question that I think I'm right about : you cannot upgrade the Techmarine Gunner that comes with the Thunderfire Cannon, correct? They already come upgraded with a Servo Harness, which is nice.
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Jul 10, 2014 16:51
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Good, good, that's what I thought, thank you. Now to just hunt down the Techmarine gunner bits from the Land Raider box so I can kitbash together a (mostly) plastic TM.
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Jul 10, 2014 16:57
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Esser-Z posted:Yeah, in my (limited) experience I've found Overwatch really isn't very dangerous on the whole. BS1 doesn't let many hits through. You must play a 3+ save army then, or one that has tons of disposable bodies. DE troops will lose a third or a 10-man assault unit to overwatch on average, and that's if they do not have a flamer to pile in yet more unsaveable wounds. That's easily enough to make most assaults from over 6 inches fail outright unless the enemy positioned really poorly. Not being able to charge out of vehicles that did not move also hurt 'casual' assault units a lot. Sure, some beastly assault units that exploit rule holes or rules combos that make them more resilient than most other can face exist, but they are the exception. The truth is that the average wych, Banshee, berserker and such will have far, far less chances to inflict casualties than any mook with a 24" range gun.
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Jul 10, 2014 17:03
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LordAba posted:EDIT: If you aren't taking advantage of the fact that nearly everything in the tyranid book has fleet, and that orks have 'Er we go, you will be frustrated. Overwatch isn't that strong, it's just those wild probability swings where you remember the time you failed a 2" charge because overwatch killed 10 guys versus all the other times you rolled 6-7 and only took one wound from overwatch.
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Jul 10, 2014 17:09
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Moola posted:From second hand knowledge all I know is move through cover is better, and FMC have to wait before charging now (lol). That change to flyers was a superb move, actually. Being able to move an obscene distance across the board first turn while nearly immune to shooting, then say on turn 2, "lol i'ma punch your dudes" had no strategy to it. Big scary monster thing isn't as maneuverable as a parakeet anymore, which is good for the game, same with nerfing Vector Strike.
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Jul 10, 2014 17:24
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Sephyr posted:You must play a 3+ save army then, or one that has tons of disposable bodies. Power Player posted:Right, but do you think it's really beneficial to have such a wildly swinging mechanic? Like, I'm not looking for the same result every time, but why do enemies get a free round of shooting because I assaulted them? Like, there's no reason not to overwatch. There's no downside. From gretchin to Terminators to Imperial Guard, there isn't ever a reason to not overwatch. You get free shots just for being assaulted! Oh, absolutely not! The mechanic is definitely not well designed.
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Jul 10, 2014 17:31
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Can anyone with Horus Heresy Book 3 look at page 210/211 and tell me what the two models closest to the front are? A Magos on an Abeyant and and another random Magos model?
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Jul 10, 2014 17:47
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Yeah, the one on foot is the Magos Dominus with Rad-cleanser you can currently buy on FW. The Abeyant had a preview model at the FW Open Day I think.
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Jul 10, 2014 17:58
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Any chance you can recognize the model on the Abeyant? It's a Myrmidon of some type but the head looks new and it appears elsewhere in the book.
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Jul 10, 2014 18:08
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Esser-Z posted:I mostly assault with Meganobz, yeah. And I've not played THAT MANY games, so it could also just be probability doing its thing. The probability bends -fast- toward the mean once you start playing with T3 stuff, models with a 4+ armor save or worse, and outdated/weird point cost. For all the talk of how the devs are worried about assault hitting an OP level of stacking modifiers, it's really off how shooting has no downsides. Shooting: +Can start stacking casualties on turn 1 +~24inch threat range +Can be safely twin-linked in many armies every turn via psykers, to become hideously efficient. +Never gives the target a reaction (overwatch, return fire, etc) +Has almost no limiting conditions (no penalties for range, or losing RF if you employ Split Fire or other abilities. +Easier to hit, as BS 4 is common, making 3+ the number to work from, and many units and special characters can easily reach 2+. -Cannot sweep broken units. Melee: +Has more attacks per model than shooting, generally. At least on the charge. -Harder to hit, as the target number never goes below 3+ unless your name is Kharn. similarly, you are never hit on worse than a 5+, so sky high WS is mostly pointless. -Usually only feasible from turns 3 and onwards. -Threat range of 7" to 18". -Can fail entirely on distance poor roll -Affected by tons of limiting conditions: disordered charge, difficult terrain, if you got off a vehicle, if a necron lord is making you hit yourself, wonky challenges getting key models out of the fray or forcing some armies to make suicidal 'choices'. -Allows reactions, both in the form of overwatch and also letting the target hit back. +Can sweep broken units. However, perhaps a bit under half of the armies in the game can actually be wiped out via sweeping. Marines do not, Nids will be fearless most of the time, CSM has access to tons of fearless models, AM blobs are almost unbreakable... - Can be made more reliable with prescience and other buffs, but with far less impact as they are not active for many turns as they get in position and such. +Allows a little extra move if you manage to win despite all that. - Then you get shot apart in the next enemy turn.
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Jul 10, 2014 18:08
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SUPER NEAT TOY posted:Any chance you can recognize the model on the Abeyant? It's a Myrmidon of some type but the head looks new and it appears elsewhere in the book. It looks the same as the head on the background picture on p.229 for the Myrmidon Destructors but can't see it on any of the current range anywhere. A quick GIS found this from GD 2013 it seems.  And also this which appears to be the model they've put on the Abeyant for the picture in the book. 
Fuegan fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Jul 10, 2014 |
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Jul 10, 2014 18:15
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Fuegan posted:It looks the same as the head on the background picture on p.229 for the Myrmidon Destructors but can't see it on any of the current range anywhere. That's what I was referring to, yeah. It's clearly a Destructor (or whatever the Myrmidon magos is) but I couldn't find it anywhere. edit: so...we're not getting it, or it's just waiting? 
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Jul 10, 2014 18:17
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Sephyr posted:For all the talk of how the devs are worried about assault hitting an OP level of stacking modifiers, it's really off how shooting has no downsides. Well, let's be fair here- the shooting versus assault balance may not be very fair, but there ARE upsides to assaults and downsides to shooting. You were pretty selective in what you considered there- for example, though many armies can get rerolls on shooting via Divination, it also gives rerolls on assaults as well. Similarly, even the most fragile unit can get a cover save (and improve it by Going to Ground) against the vast majority of shooting attacks- but in assault there's no hiding. Assaults also natively do twice as much damage, since you get to swing in both yours and your opponent's assault phases, but only get to shoot in your own shooting phase. Assaults also have built-in bonuses like the +1Attack for charging, whereas shooting does not. While locked in an assault you are also immune to shooting, whereas shooting at something does not make you immune to being assaulted. It wouldn't actually take a lot to tip the balance of the game back towards assaults, honestly- allowing consolidation into combats is almost enough on its own, though I would be extremely displeased to see that mechanic return. But the tip towards shooting isn't nearly as heavy as many people think, and if GW would actually write a melee codex right, it could really change the game. The Orks codex even has a few of the things that are needed (cheap assault units, speed boosts, etc), I just don't think it's enough, all things considered. (Also, you missed perhaps the biggest advantage for shooting: sequentiality. You can shoot at a unit, see what you did to it, then shoot at it with something else, repeating until you run out of units you want to or can fire with. But assaults have to be declared all at once, committing yourself to a plan in its entirety before you see the results. That is a huge tactical disadvantage.)
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Jul 10, 2014 18:22
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The current models come with a volkite culverin, irradiation engine and conversion beamer, so I assume the variant I linked is one of the other weapons (probably the Graviton variant) and we'll see it at some point.
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Jul 10, 2014 18:23
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It's a small consolation, but don't forget that pinned/gone to ground units can no longer fire overwatch. And overwatch still doesn't trigger morale or pinning checks.
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Jul 10, 2014 18:32
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For the record, those Destructors have badass rules. With Volkites they will delete about 21-25 5+ units every turn, at 45", which is crazy town. Also GW is bad at game design and makes a poorly balanced game, news at 7.
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Jul 10, 2014 18:32
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So this is what I'm thinking of doing for low-point games HQ Archmagos Prime + cyber-familiar + machinator array + lachrimallus + master-crafted phased-plasma fusil + djinn-skein 235 points Thallax Cohort Empyrite 160 points Thallax Cohort Empyrite 160 points Thallax Cohort Empyrite + Photon thruster 185 points Adsecularis Covenant 10 Thralls + mitralocks + RoPT + Revenant Alchemistry 105 points Around 850 points, and it includes a T6, 2+3+++, 5+ FNP hero that fires 3 BS6 plasma shots a turn.
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Jul 10, 2014 18:44
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 I haven't been able to pawn off 17 metal Stormboyz there or anywhere else. Admittedly, I'd be using them to fund purchases of the new, more badass Stormboyz, but shut up.
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Jul 10, 2014 18:51
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Proletariat Beowulf posted:
2nd edition metal or 4/5th edition metal and plastic?
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Jul 10, 2014 18:55
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Indolent Bastard posted:2nd edition metal or 4/5th edition metal and plastic? 4th/5th metal torso plastic appendages duders.
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Jul 10, 2014 19:03
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Those hybrid models are absolute bastards. They find their way into doing headstands really quickly, then parts fall off, then you're trying to repair them and the paintjobs are getting destroyed, and it's just utter misery. If I were to put together a squad of them, I'd load up on green stuff and pins and just cement them together. That being said, I kinda love the look of the hybrid models just because they're Ork boy with rockets strapped to their backs. The new ones are great too, but I appreciate the simplicity.
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Jul 10, 2014 19:10
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SRM posted:Those hybrid models are absolute bastards. They find their way into doing headstands really quickly, then parts fall off, then you're trying to repair them and the paintjobs are getting destroyed, and it's just utter misery. If I were to put together a squad of them, I'd load up on green stuff and pins and just cement them together. That being said, I kinda love the look of the hybrid models just because they're Ork boy with rockets strapped to their backs. The new ones are great too, but I appreciate the simplicity. This poo poo right here is the best thing for modeling non-plastic EVER. I didn't believe how effective it was until a buddy slapped together two pieces of junk resin, sprayed them with an accelerant, then threw it on the ground to no effect. I use regular plastic glue for normal GW grey plastic that makes the plastic bond. e: Having put way too much effort into painting my regular boyz troops, I'm a little bit burnt out on having to do the same painting project with such repetition. I still have 15 Tankbustas and some Burnaz to do; the last thing I need is more ork pants to paint black or khaki. Proletariat Beowulf fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Jul 10, 2014 |
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Jul 10, 2014 19:27
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Yeah, that stuff is often sold as store brand super glue at various hobby shops, but it rules.
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Jul 10, 2014 19:30
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Gorilla Glue has a narrow applicator gel bottle that's 4 times the content volume of the Loctite extra control gel (15g vs. 3.5g per bottle) that has been amazing for securing model parts. http://www.gorillatough.com/index.php?page=super-glue-gel I've used less glue material and it's been pliable while I'm fitting the bit to the model, but once I press down to secure it, 5-10 seconds, max. The bottle is like $0.50 more than the loctite for the bottle, but with 4 times the content. I've secured both pewter and resin to the plastic spacemans and had no issues. I haven't tested it for trying to get the pieces off once they're secured, but I don't know if that's necessarily a good metric to go by.
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Jul 10, 2014 19:46
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koreban posted:Gorilla Glue has a narrow applicator gel bottle that's 4 times the content volume of the Loctite extra control gel (15g vs. 3.5g per bottle) that has been amazing for securing model parts. I use this stuff too and it's pretty solid. I haven't had any issues with models breaking except for on really thin sections. While the bond is strong, it's not hard to bust bits off if need be. It can take a little while to bond with resin and metal, but that's been my experience with every super glue.
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Jul 10, 2014 20:04
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Maybe it was just because I was gluing shoulderpads on, but the bonds took on those in seconds. Generally with the Loctite I was finding that the pads were still moveable for 30 seconds after setting into place. It's a single narrow example, but it's not like shoulderpads are especially difficult bits to make stick on space mans.
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Jul 10, 2014 20:09
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LordAba posted:Hormies have fleet, so they have a longer practical charge range. Roughly 2 extra inches... a 9" charge has about the same chance of a 7" charge. Hormies have the numbers and bonus run distance (plus fleet) to keep up with casualties, and a full 10 man marine squad on overwatch only averages 1 kill. I'm well aware they have Fleet, I'm just not entirely convinced that Fleet is doing the right thing. Light, fast units still have the same maximum threat range as heavy, survivable ones. Imagine if all vehicles had random movement, but Fast vehicles got to re-roll the dice. They'd still be technically faster on average, but the best potential is still the same despite supposedly being faster. That's where we are with Hormaguants vs Terminators. All the reroll does is increase the average, it doesn't improve the potential. I wonder what effect it would have if instead of a reroll, Fleet gave a 3D6" charge range instead. Then, what if Furious Charge added +1" or +2" to that range too? Now your adrenal Hormaguants or Waaaaaghing Boyz can effectively push out 18" in a turn, potentially around 25" if you're lucky. That's enough to ensure they're not taking hideous amounts of fire before getting where they're supposed to be.
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Jul 10, 2014 20:15
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Sephyr posted:The probability bends -fast- toward the mean once you start playing with T3 stuff, models with a 4+ armor save or worse, and outdated/weird point cost. Sure but it makes a lot of sense, future space armies-wise. Even modern combat is almost exclusively contested at range, in comparison to mediaeval warfare (see: shooting less effective in whfb). And even so, melee units can be very effective, but fluff-wise consider the "reality" of a horde of works charging enough shooting to kill them all before they get into cc. Lots of orkses are going to get shredded. Basically play whfb if you want to swing axen. Space guns>swords. Army pics. Man BA are expensive.. Fully upgraded this is over 2250 worth. edit: 
Nichol fucked around with this message at 20:47 on Jul 10, 2014 |
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Jul 10, 2014 20:44
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Nichol posted:Sure but it makes a lot of sense, future space armies-wise. Even modern combat is almost exclusively contested at range, in comparison to mediaeval warfare (see: shooting less effective in whfb). And even so, melee units can be very effective, but fluff-wise consider the "reality" of a horde of works charging enough shooting to kill them all before they get into cc. Lots of orkses are going to get shredded. Edit: Fluff-wise a squad of Space Marines should be able to shred like a thousand Orks, yet that's not how the game works.
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Jul 10, 2014 20:48
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Power Player posted:I'm not playing a modern realistic combat game, I'm playing a game with Space Marines who ride space wolves into battle wielding axes. No one is saying that melee has to be some sort of end-all be-all, but to say that "it shouldn't be that good because it's not realistic" doesn't make any sense when you're talking about Warhammer 40 loving thousand. This. Many times this. 40k is not even remotely realistic. Again, why give me a chainsaw sword if I can't USE that chainsaw sword? Or, y'know, make assault-specialized factions.
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Jul 10, 2014 20:49
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Nichol posted:Sure but it makes a lot of sense, future space armies-wise. Even modern combat is almost exclusively contested at range, in comparison to mediaeval warfare. This will make sense when you play 40k on a football pitch.Its a science-fiction game. Realism does not make sense in this context. It has psychic powers and FTL travel. It has Gods. All that poo poo is setting for a game. Good games imo should be balanced between varied and flavoursome playstyles. Raphus C fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Jul 10, 2014 |
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Jul 10, 2014 20:53
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With a healthy dose of fantasy (hi, Chaos) to boot!
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Jul 10, 2014 20:53
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Not that I don't feel the pain. Half my spacemans are cc hungry death company so...
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Jul 10, 2014 20:54
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Petition to have Basilisks models removed from GW's site and from the game as artillery pieces should NOT be that close to the front line.
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Jul 10, 2014 20:54
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Power Player posted:I'm not playing a modern realistic combat game, I'm playing a game with Space Marines who ride space wolves into battle wielding axes.
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Jul 10, 2014 21:03
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