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If you're looking at this interaction between Franklin and Cap it's like you have about 30 minutes to explain to a three-year-old why they should not take a cookie out of the cookie jar.
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Jul 10, 2014 15:58
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It's simple, if he takes a cookie out of the cookie jar I'm going smash the cookie jar and never buy cookies again and everyone will be sad and it'll be HIS FAULT. That doesn't take 30 minutes to explain!
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Jul 10, 2014 16:00
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Lurdiak posted:It's simple, if he takes a cookie out of the cookie jar I'm going smash the cookie jar and never buy cookies again and everyone will be sad and it'll be HIS FAULT. That doesn't take 30 minutes to explain! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9UfY_94sKU
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Jul 10, 2014 16:02
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I think Franklin was being both honest and leading Cap into a certain point if view. The illuminati will fail. Cap will be somewhat responsible for this. He may even kill Tony. But Earth is still there and even in the future Cap is a symbol held proudly by the Avengers Machine. Cap will undoubtedly end up saving the day by facing the impossible because that's who he is. There's probably a more elegant solution available but he's too pissed to see it because to him the illuminati are a bigger threat than the incursions themselves. Which is funny because he WAS in the illuminati until he lost control of it.
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Jul 10, 2014 16:46
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Cap cites his ability to push away another universe using the infinity gauntlet but completely ignores the fact that his inability to control it destroys most of the gems and landed him in his current predicament. Dude has a selectively memory.
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Jul 10, 2014 17:26
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Kaleidoscope posted:Cap cites his ability to push away another universe using the infinity gauntlet but completely ignores the fact that his inability to control it destroys most of the gems and landed him in his current predicament. Dude has a selectively memory. It probably can't be controlled. Not Justice League had a similar plan that also resulted in their Forever Glass breaking after it was used.
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Jul 10, 2014 17:43
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notthegoatseguy posted:It probably can't be controlled. Not Justice League had a similar plan that also resulted in their Forever Glass breaking after it was used. They managed to use it more than once but yeah it ended up failing as well. EDIT: Welp I was wrong. They used it just once for their first incursion. The second they used the words of power. The third they didn't divulge. Happy Noodle Boy fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Jul 10, 2014 |
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Jul 10, 2014 17:44
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The Infinity Gauntlet being destroyed wasn't really Cap's fault, the Great Society's equivalent was also destroyed when they used it to avoid an incursion. e. beaten
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Jul 10, 2014 17:46
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Only because I can't remember: Has it been clarified just how long these incursions across the multi-v have been occurring? Was it like thousands of years but they're now just making their way to 616 with any regularity?
redbackground fucked around with this message at 18:25 on Jul 10, 2014 |
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Jul 10, 2014 18:21
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redbackground posted:Only because I can't remember: Has it been clarified just how long these incursions across the multi-v have been occurring? Was it like thousands of years but they're not just making their way to 616 with any regularity? No I think it's a new thing. The breakdown between universes is what alerted the Alephs and caused them to go on a warpath towards earth to try and stop them.
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Jul 10, 2014 18:24
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Senor Candle posted:No I think it's a new thing. The breakdown between universes is what alerted the Alephs and caused them to go on a warpath towards earth to try and stop them.
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Jul 10, 2014 18:28
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redbackground posted:Okay. It does seem as if the...larger-scale figures involved have been entrenched for a pretty long time though--the mapmakers, the Ivory Kings, and all the other Giant Scary End Bosses we've only caught glimpses of. Time is fluid and we just saw some mapmakers get developed by AIM. I wouldn't be surprised if we eventually saw the Ivory Kings get set into motion as well.
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Jul 10, 2014 18:32
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Senor Candle posted:Did you even read the issue? Skimmed through it. Will read in detail when I get home.
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Jul 10, 2014 18:35
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Gatts posted:Skimmed through it. Will read in detail when I get home. Oh ok, Franklin actually addresses your exact point.
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Jul 10, 2014 18:36
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Senor Candle posted:No I think it's a new thing. The breakdown between universes is what alerted the Alephs and caused them to go on a warpath towards earth to try and stop them. While Infinity happened due to the incursions, those have been happening since before. My guess is not that long but by the time Swan is introduced and the first incursion on 616 happen she is already aware of the majority of players. We don't see the builders actually become involved until they lose their hyper bridge or whatever that was called. Swan's first incursion was when she was a child but her escape to the library meant years for her to grow and learn so aside from the few glimpses she may actually not have that much direct involvement with incursions and just mostly learned from the other swans. So until they reveal who is the driving force behind them, I don't think we'll be able to know when this poo poo started. And by who I mean whenever they reveal which universe's Reed Richards started this because if someone's good at loving poo poo up on a universal scale it's Reed Richards.
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Jul 10, 2014 18:39
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Senor Candle posted:Time is fluid and we just saw some mapmakers get developed by AIM. I wouldn't be surprised if we eventually saw the Ivory Kings get set into motion as well. I completely expect to see the Ivory Kings "begin" as well, and I imagine that they'll get knocked back in time*...somehow, but the incursions still have to have been going on for a long time for them to be such, I dunno, portents and guys behind the curtain. *or another version of the Illuminiti was at fault in the past or something, which is actually more likely. redbackground fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Jul 10, 2014 |
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Jul 10, 2014 18:42
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Yeah I think it's reasonable to assume that something on Earth set all this stuff in motion, and like we saw with the rogue planet, these events are not happening in a linear order.
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Jul 10, 2014 18:54
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It's going to be a version of the Illuminati/Avengers that had Apocalypse as a member and leader my guess. Earlier it was pointed out that the Kings and Mapmakers and Priests are all elements of the Illuminati. Maybe their origin is in the far future but sent to the past and involves a corrupted Avengers Machine/Wheel. Thanos is the ace in the hole and difference maker. Gatts fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Jul 10, 2014 |
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Jul 10, 2014 18:56
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I just finished the first hardback (it ends at Doom finding the Mapmaker rock) and I'm still wondering why Stark won't make a new planet within his Dyson sphere. At the very least he should use the evacuation possibility as his fall back contingency plan.
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Jul 10, 2014 19:31
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Watch it be that they set off the bomb and somehow it set shockwaves and it caused the incursions to occur in the first place.
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Jul 10, 2014 19:32
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bobkatt013 posted:Watch it be that they set off the bomb and somehow it set shockwaves and it caused the incursions to occur in the first place. My vote is that it somehow happened because of the Doomiverse.
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Jul 10, 2014 19:40
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Nevvy Z posted:My vote is that it somehow happened because of the Doomiverse. hmmm. that was Nazi Reed's universe right? anyone know which issue did they show that universe get emptied in?
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Jul 10, 2014 19:45
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jsoh posted:hmmm. that was Nazi Reed's universe right? anyone know which issue did they show that universe get emptied in? Nazi Reed's story is F4#605.1. Victor takes over and recreates it in his image on F4#611.
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Jul 10, 2014 19:55
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Nevvy Z posted:My vote is that it somehow happened because of the Doomiverse. I thought Doomiverse was Franklin Richards loving with Doom.
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Jul 10, 2014 20:09
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coconono posted:I thought Doomiverse was Franklin Richards loving with Doom. Hickman planted the seed of incursions long ago???  EDIT: Serious talk, from the same book  They're talking about the Galactus Seed. Happy Noodle Boy fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Jul 10, 2014 |
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Jul 10, 2014 20:15
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TwoPair posted:One thing I kind of don't get is why nobody asks Franklin "Oh hey, what happened to all the Ultrons?" I mean, Natasha asks about her robot, but you'd think somebody would at least throw out a quick question about "How is Earth free when it used to be enslaved?" It wouldn't take much, just have Future Franklin throw out "Oh, Thor just got super-pissed and Mjolnir decided he was worthy and holy poo poo there was lightning everywhere now let's talk about these incursions..." Pretty sure they implied the answer when Franklin talked about how there were a bunch of Human/android hybrids.
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Jul 10, 2014 20:40
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The Question IRL posted:Unless this is supposed to be some Reverse Psychology thing where the only way to make Cap listen to reason is to imply that it's impossible for him to change this and that is what gets Steve to think outside of his normal operating procedure. Ultimately I think this is what the issue is about. Franklin: Cap, you are you, and you can't change. The archetype of a Captain will persevere thousands of years in the future, for good or bad. Cap: But how do I stop Tony? Franklin: You can't, the odds are stacked, the early death of everything will happen. (But clearly it doesn't, or these future issues wouldn't exist in the first place. The Avengers would have nowhere to time skip forward to.) Happy Noodle Boy posted:I think Franklin was being both honest and leading Cap into a certain point if view. The illuminati will fail. Cap will be somewhat responsible for this. He may even kill Tony. But Earth is still there and even in the future Cap is a symbol held proudly by the Avengers Machine. So basically Cap needs to stop fighting the Illuminati and figure out the impossible himself. hope and vaseline fucked around with this message at 23:01 on Jul 10, 2014 |
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Jul 10, 2014 22:59
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I really like the approach to time travel / history / causality that says that everything that has to happen will happen, not because of Fate but because at the end of the day, there are trends, currents that will get a river where it's supposed to get, even if you deviate it a bit here and there. My understanding of Franklin's speech was that Fate isn't a mysterious force but the sum of an incredibly high number of deterministic processes, and that high complexity makes science look like magic. That's very Foundation. Mapmakers are actually a great example: whatever the reality, there will be adaptoids and they will evolve into Mapmakers somehow. It's a nice, yet believable, departure from the classic causal approach to time travel, because if you're not Kurt Busiek, you'll probably gently caress it up anyway. There's always the Bendis approach of "gently caress it, let me tell my story" which I don't mind as long as you have an engaging story to tell, ie not Ultron or Atom. The part that really messes with my head is how local time is. As you guys mentioned, there's this whole incursion mythos that makes it look like the incursions have been going on forever. The way Black Swan speaks of some things, they sound like ancient history. Does this mean parallel planes don't necessarily share a common time, or that when an incursion happens, one Earth can be further down its time line than the one it's facing? The ultimately confusing part is definitely when Franklin says the premature end of everything has happened / will happen. I'm on the fence about it's meaning as I see 3 explanations: 1. It has already almost happened and he's manipulating Cap to make sure it doesn't happen. 2. It has actually happened, I'm missing a subtlety, and the end of everything isn't the end of everything. 3. Time and space aren't exactly linear, there's no straight causality, and the future we saw was one where what's occurring right now in New Avengers hasn't really played out. This is confusing but what I mean is that the timeline where there's a future with Franklin, Groot, etc. is a timeline untouched yet by incursions, as there have only been a few so far and they've been repelled. But the moment the end of everything happens, every future disappears. Franklin seemed to imply this when he mentioned time being not linear, but at the same time, he does mention incursions as past history. gently caress it, these books make me feel dumb and I do have theoretical physics and engineering degrees.
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Jul 10, 2014 23:57
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PelvicNerve posted:gently caress it, these books make me feel dumb and I do have theoretical physics and engineering degrees. It almost feels like Hickman is trying to teach us to read comics in a different, more satisfying way. The way his runs are structured are like a space-time jigsaw puzzle. Each arc gives us a little bit more to piece together what's happening, and the more we know, the more we understand about past events and what is about to happen. At the same time we're learning that space-time is not linear and has ebbs and flows. Things are fated to happen, characters change and learn, but they're limited because of how archetypes last longer than the characters do. The shared Marvel universe, no matter how radical it changes, will always self-correct due to the nature of comics. You can be the type of reader that will order each comic according to each other chronologically, and go insane trying to do so, or you can accept that the Marvel reality is fluid and non-linear. Why do some writers acknowledge changes in another comic book, or ignore them? Maybe that reality is slightly out of phase. Maybe it will course-correct later in the future to make sense. Comics aren't meant to be put together like a jigsaw puzzle. If you smash the puzzle apart, it's way more beautiful to look at the pieces as an impressionistic, incomplete mess than a puzzle rigidly, forcefully put together. (Sorry for the not too sensical rant.)
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Jul 11, 2014 00:29
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My guess is that everything will end, but the Avengers do something about it in the vein of "Thanos with the Heart of the Universe" to correct it. Maybe that Thanos solicit talking about his role in saving the universe again in fall has something to do with it as well.
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Jul 11, 2014 01:03
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Well they certainly want people to think this is leading to a universe reboot, don't they? Franklin says that Cap beats the Illuminati and kills his brothers, and he says that everything dies. But also everything lives as we see them in the future and we hear about the Stark Dynasty.
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Jul 11, 2014 01:18
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It's not really a reboot if they say everything dies and lives and all continuity stays the same, it's more an Infinity Gauntlet deal where it's undone but not unwritten.
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Jul 11, 2014 01:39
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redbackground posted:Right. But they were still (this is going to get messy) "created" long after the incursions even began, so where/when they eventually end up would still have to be way in the past, to eventually (in their future, our past) become the feared blue-sky planet vultures they're known currently as. (told you) I thought one of the NA issues involving the universe-window explained that the window sees other universes at different points in time, and that depending on which way they looked they could see the past of one universe relative to 616 or the future of another. So if it's 2014 in 616, it's DinObama's re-election year in 614, and Hila-robo-pocalypse in 619 (because robo-Hilary won't be pres until 2017).
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Jul 11, 2014 02:41
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redbackground posted:Right. But they were still (this is going to get messy) "created" long after the incursions even began, so where/when they eventually end up would still have to be way in the past, to eventually (in their future, our past) become the feared blue-sky planet vultures they're known currently as. (told you) They way I interpreted that scene with the Adaptoids is that the Mapmakers are just like the explorer's AIM created. When they arrive there's a third more rudimentary variation of them before the Mapmakers appear so the way I see it the mapmakers are just the conclusion to any adaptoid created in a universe. They all lead to multiversal exploring/mining.
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Jul 11, 2014 02:59
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I read Franklins speech as saying that yeah, the incursions are going to happen and you can't do poo poo about it but you all have a misunderstanding about what they are. Like they are not the death of the universe they are something else.
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Jul 11, 2014 04:54
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hope and vaseline posted:(But clearly it doesn't, or these future issues wouldn't exist in the first place. The Avengers would have nowhere to time skip forward to.) The Illuminati can still fail without destroying their universe. All it means is some other universe's Illuminati succeeds, and Earth-616 gets blown up before it can hit another Earth and cause a contraction/end both universes. ...gee, if only the Illuminati had some sort of backup planet that was, say, somehow comic-book-science-y 'merged' with their Earth that they could either sacrifice in Earth's place or possibly evacuate to or something... some kind of 'rogue planet,' say, possibly one sent backwards in time by someone cagey and near-omnipotent like, oh, Franklin Richards...
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Jul 11, 2014 05:11
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DivineCoffeeBinge posted:...gee, if only the Illuminati had some sort of backup planet that was, say, somehow comic-book-science-y 'merged' with their Earth that they could either sacrifice in Earth's place or possibly evacuate to or something... some kind of 'rogue planet,' say, possibly one sent backwards in time by someone cagey and near-omnipotent like, oh, Franklin Richards...
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Jul 11, 2014 06:04
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redbackground posted:Well, that solves one incursion. My understanding was that in universes where Earth was destroyed, incursions didn't threaten them anymore. Hence the point of Infinity.
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Jul 11, 2014 06:10
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Skwirl posted:My understanding was that in universes where Earth was destroyed, incursions didn't threaten them anymore. Hence the point of Infinity. laaaaaate edit: well, the incursions would still be happening elsewhere/when, so it would still be an issue eventually, even if somehow 616 earth was destoryed but backed up or whatever. redbackground fucked around with this message at 12:54 on Jul 11, 2014 |
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Jul 11, 2014 06:17
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Isn't destroying an earth a stop gap? Eventually the incursions lead to the death of the multiverse.
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Jul 11, 2014 07:48
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