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Never mind the fact that it's not a bad idea when the risks are almost or at 0 to keep something around just in case.
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Jul 12, 2014 22:25
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Main Paineframe posted:The risks are tiny, but the benefits are nonexistent - live smallpox virus isn't actually needed for smallpox research. 2 posts down http://www.plospathogens.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.ppat.1004108 Are We There Yet? posted:Even in the past ten years, molecular technologies have advanced considerably. The continued use of variola virus (or its genomic material) may be needed to evaluate how well newer generations of diagnostics, for instance, will perform in the newer diagnostic platforms. Current generations of DNA sequencing technologies are now far advanced compared to those of 1999 and may soon supplant PCR-based diagnostics in some advanced laboratories. But these laboratories will not be able to handle all smallpox diagnostic capacity in a timely fashion; the reliance on many international microbiology laboratories will be necessary in the event of any reemergence of smallpox in the future, and protein-based diagnostic assays will augment laboratory-based surveillance and detection strategies. Although two antiviral drugs with different mechanisms of action are in advanced stages of development, resistance to each of these drugs has been elicited in cultured cells and against one of these drugs in a vaccinia-infected human [9], [13], [22], [23]. Similarly, the demonstration more than a decade ago of a recombinant ectromelia (mousepox) virus construct that expresses IL-4 and is more resistant to the smallpox vaccine [24] has raised concerns of the potential creation of a vaccine-resistant smallpox virus. While the likelihood of the emergence of, or creation of, either drug- or vaccine-resistant versions of smallpox is unknown, continued investigation to identify additional countermeasures, for example, through screening using functional genomics or proteomics approaches, can further enhance our state of preparedness. Additional studies evaluating the safety and efficacy of drug combination therapies will also be needed. Certainly the current capabilities of synthetic biology and the availability of multiple variola virus genome sequences in the published literature make these scenarios more worrisome in the 21st century and also make the feasibility of ultimate final destruction of variola virus, itself, problematic [25].
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Jul 12, 2014 22:27
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Ogmius815 posted:What benefit weighs against that risk? You haven't a loving clue. "Well, the war is over. And these tanks are now to be destroyed, immediately because there will never be a war ever again. There is absolutely no benefit to having a standing army because we're not at war now, and nobody has a clue if there'll ever be another war, so why should we hold onto them? Those who say we should hold onto them just say 'What if we need them', which is stupid and foolish." No, we don't have a clue, because we're not loving PSYCHIC YOU DENSE MOTHERFUCKER.
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Jul 13, 2014 01:42
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That reasoning could justify anything. Why do you need fifteen machine guns Jones? Why would you ever need fifteen guns worth of suppressing fire? "Oh I don't know, I'm not psychic!".
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Jul 13, 2014 02:10
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This isn't 15 machine guns, this is all machine guns, forever. How are you so loving dense?
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Jul 13, 2014 02:14
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That might be persuasive if you gave one decent reason why having the virus around would help. All the reasons given have failed, because, as I remind you for the thousandth time, we can make anti-virals and poo poo using other viruses like cowpox. The only reason the CDC claims they need their virus samples is because of their pride and arrogance. They don't want to give up something that the bear has. EDIT:And gently caress it, we'd be better off with no machine guns ever. And no bombs and nerve gas too. You motherfuckers make the least persuasive arguments I swear. Ogmius815 fucked around with this message at 02:36 on Jul 13, 2014 |
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Jul 13, 2014 02:31
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Ogmius815 posted:The only reason the CDC claims they need their virus samples is because of their pride and arrogance. They don't want to give up something that the bear has. You are making assumptions on things. You are literally saying 'They don't want to give it up for this reason even though there's no evidence to say that's whats happening'. You're making the claim, bring the loving evidence. Ogmius815 posted:EDIT:And gently caress it, we'd be better off with no machine guns ever. And no bombs and nerve gas too. You motherfuckers make the least persuasive arguments I swear. Yes, it would. sadly that's not the world we live in, because that's not going to happen. We'll always need armies to defend ourselves with because the human being is not loving perfect.
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Jul 13, 2014 02:36
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E-Tank posted:You are making assumptions on things. You are literally saying 'They don't want to give it up for this reason even though there's no evidence to say that's whats happening'. You're making the claim, bring the loving evidence. Bring the evidence that smallpox might be useful. You'll need to do better than "we need to do more experiments to get around the bureaucracy" or "we might need it for some reason I can't explain". E-Tank posted:Yes, it would. sadly that's not the world we live in, because that's not going to happen. We'll always need armies to defend ourselves with because the human being is not loving perfect. What is the argument? What sad necessity of the world specifically means we need to keep smallpox around?
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Jul 13, 2014 02:38
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Ogmius815 posted:That might be persuasive if you gave one decent reason why having the virus around would help. All the reasons given have failed, because, as I remind you for the thousandth time, we can make anti-virals and poo poo using other viruses like cowpox. You've been shown that this very claim is wrong repeatedly. Ogmius815 posted:Bring the evidence that smallpox might be useful. http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3619508
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Jul 13, 2014 02:38
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Ogmius815 posted:EDIT:And gently caress it, we'd be better off with no machine guns ever. And no bombs and nerve gas too. You motherfuckers make the least persuasive arguments I swear. Except all of those things were inevitable inventions. If someone had a gun, one of the first things they're going to think is "how make gun work faster". You can't stop research, you can't stop science. The best you can do is try to make the research as open, safe and ethical as possible. Thinking that it's possible to stop it is incredibly naive.
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Jul 13, 2014 02:40
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That's just a link to the first page of the thread.
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Jul 13, 2014 02:40
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SwissCM posted:Except all of those things were inevitable inventions. If someone had a gun, one of the first things they're going to think is "how make gun work faster". Well it sure would be hard to do research on smallpox after all the samples of smallpox were consigned to oblivion. That's sort of your argument right?
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Jul 13, 2014 02:40
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Ogmius815 posted:Bring the evidence that smallpox might be useful. You'll need to do better than "we need to do more experiments to get around the bureaucracy" or "we might need it for some reason I can't explain". We already have. You keep ignoring it. You need to tell me what proof there is that the CDC is not holding onto it for any reason beyond 'they have it too' or arrogance. We've answered your demands, and you're making the statement of contention right now. Where is the proof that the CDC holds it only because of arrogance?
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Jul 13, 2014 02:41
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Ogmius815 posted:That's just a link to the first page of the thread. Yes. Read the thread instead of shouting about how noone's shown you evidence. Ogmius815 posted:Well it sure would be hard to do research on smallpox after all the samples of smallpox were consigned to oblivion. That's sort of your argument right? What bad thing do you think researching smallpox will do? How will that bad thing not happen if according to you "other poxes work just as well"?
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Jul 13, 2014 02:42
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To my knowledge, all of the supposed reasons why we might need variola specifically for research have been answered. If you don't agree, link a specific post.
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Jul 13, 2014 02:47
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Nintendo Kid posted:Yes. Read the thread instead of shouting about how noone's shown you evidence. Well genius, other pox viruses don't infect humans or are less lethal, so there's much less risk.
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Jul 13, 2014 02:48
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Ogmius815 posted:What is the argument? What sad necessity of the world specifically means we need to keep smallpox around? You were saying that my argument was flawed because it'd be great if guns didn't exist. And I agree. It would be great. But it's not the loving world we live in and thus you can't take an argument and try and say 'that's not persuasive because I say its not' by saying "Well I'd want guns destroyed too so there". Your argument is literally 'But they're arrogant!'  While providing absolutely no evidence that they are being 'arrogant' or that there is any benefit to destroying them beyond letting you rest your sphincter, being terrified of a loving outbreak of a virus that we have a vaccine for and is basically held one tenth of a centimeter from extinction. Basically attempting to close off all potential future research gains from something that could very well save billions of lives in the proper manner, all because you're terrified of it being a weapon, something we've proven is bullshit, or being unleashed, something we have proven is also bullshit.You are terrified of shadows. You are letting your emotions overrun any logical discussion. It's no longer just that the viruses are deadly and a ticking time bomb, it's that the CDC are a bunch of arrogant pricks. Why? Because you say so. You are not arguing in good faith, and nothing you have said here has any loving bearing on our discussion beyond you being scared shitless and refusing to listen to reason. You know, much like the people against vaccinations, or against gun control, or against gay people, or against progression in the human race in general. Stop, and think. For just a minute. Ogmius815 posted:Well genius, other pox viruses don't infect humans or are less lethal, so there's much less risk. "B-b-but they might make those other pox viruses more lethal through genetics! That's how it worked in the comic books, they just opened that virus up and took out a +20 to damage gene and glued it in there!"  
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Jul 13, 2014 02:51
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Ogmius815 posted:Well genius, other pox viruses don't infect humans or are less lethal, so there's much less risk. There is 0 risk of smallpox, so how do other pox viruses have negative risk, ogmius? Ogmius815 posted:To my knowledge, all of the supposed reasons why we might need variola specifically for research have been answered. If you don't agree, link a specific post. You did not "answer" them you just shrieked on for pages at a time about how smallpox is totally going to break out and kill us all, therefore no one should have any samples. Here's a link to a specifc post: go look at every post quoting you for the past few days. Thanks.
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Jul 13, 2014 02:54
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I'm not the one who has taken up the position that we should never perform cost-benefit calculations when considering scientific research. My argument is that there is very real, but very small risk involved in keeping smallpox around. It's true the risk is small but you've presented me no benefit to weigh against that risk other than fever dreams. You've provided no explanation of how keeping smallpox around will help us that isn't so vague it could apply to literally any action. The people in this thread have tried, but all these attempts have failed for reasons explained by other posters. There isn't one positive reason to keep smallpox around left standing on your side, so if I can prove any amount of risk at all, I win. Sorry you've totally failed to make any arguments that make one loving bit of sense in this thread.
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Jul 13, 2014 02:56
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Ogmius815 posted:I'm not the one who has taken up the position that we should never perform cost-benefit calculations when considering scientific research. Yes you have, you have declared against all evidence that cost-benefit is inapplicable because according to you smallpox locked up is a massive danger that outweighs all possible benefits. You are seriously ignorant enough to think it's going to do ANY HARM AT ALL in its current situation. Here's the calculation, nimrod: 0 risk : some benefit.
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Jul 13, 2014 02:58
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Nintendo Kid posted:There is 0 risk of smallpox, so how do other pox viruses have negative risk, ogmius? quote:You did not "answer" them you just shrieked on for pages at a time about how smallpox is totally going to break out and kill us all, therefore no one should have any samples. Pain Mainframe and Paul Maud'Dib, in posts that went basically unresponded to, explained why those reasons were nonsense.
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Jul 13, 2014 02:58
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Ogmius815 posted:It's demonstrably false that there is 0 risk. Nope. Unless you're dumb enough to believe people are going to walk into the secure storage sites and rink vials of smallpox.
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Jul 13, 2014 02:59
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Nintendo Kid posted:Nope. Unless you're dumb enough to believe people are going to walk into the secure storage sites and rink vials of smallpox. People never make mistakes and accidents never happen. You heard it here first, fishmech said so.
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Jul 13, 2014 03:00
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Ogmius815 posted:People never make mistakes and accidents never happen. You heard it here first, fishmech said so. No one has ever made a mistake or accident leading to infection with smallpox since the current protocols were introduced longer ago than most of this forum has been alive. There is 0 risk. I will bet all the money I have that there will never be another smallpox infection ever again.
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Jul 13, 2014 03:02
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Nintendo Kid posted:No one has ever made a mistake or accident leading to infection with smallpox since the current protocols were introduced longer ago than most of this forum has been alive. Something hasn't happened in thirty years, and therefore it never will happen. Even though the CDC fucks poo poo up sometimes, finds vials of virus it didn't know it had at the FDA, and is generally f=run by fallible human beings.
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Jul 13, 2014 03:03
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Ogmius815 posted:Something hasn't happened in thirty years, and therefore it never will happen. "We've not found anything else to study Smallpox with right this moment, therefore we will never find anything to potentially save billions of lives."
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Jul 13, 2014 03:05
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Ogmius815 posted:Something hasn't happened in thirty years, and therefore it never will happen. Yes it will never happen. It absolutely will never happen because containment works and this isn't a Michael Crichton novel. You don't know what you're talking about.
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Jul 13, 2014 03:05
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E-Tank posted:"We've not found anything else to study Smallpox with right this moment, therefore we will never find anything to potentially save billions of lives." See, this scenario is the emotional fever dream. You can't even describe a hypothetical for this; you don't have the first idea what it would look like. "Aliens send a probe to talk to Variola" is literally as plausible as anything you can imagine.
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Jul 13, 2014 03:07
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Thalidomide was banned after it resulted in newborns with deformities, but we now know it can be used to treat leprosy and cancer, something we couldn't have predicted. Fortunately in that case we can make more of it, but people like you would have wiped out off the face of the earth. You ignorant anti-science gently caress.
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Jul 13, 2014 03:07
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Praseodymi posted:Thalidomide was banned after it resulted in newborns with deformities, but we now know it can be used to treat leprosy and cancer, something we couldn't have predicted. Fortunately in that case we can make more of it, but people like you would have wiped out off the face of the earth. There are ways to research Thalidomide without risking an epidemic of an extinct illness. The risk isn't comparable. Sorry again I'm not the caricature you want me to be.
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Jul 13, 2014 03:10
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Ogmius815 posted:See, this scenario is the emotional fever dream. You can't even describe a hypothetical for this; you don't have the first idea what it would look like. "Aliens send a probe to talk to Variola" is literally as plausible as anything you can imagine. Hypotheticals aren't needed because scientists are using smallpox for research every single day. Meanwhile all you can come up with is "I literally believe science works like Jurassic Park and will kill us all". The absolute worst case scenario for someone willfully breaking all containment protocol is some idiot scientist committing time-delayed suicide. That's it! And if you try to bring up "b-b-but weaponizing!!!" then let us remind you again that the live samples aren't needed or even helpful to create weaponized smallpox. Ogmius815 posted:There are ways to research Thalidomide without risking an epidemic of an extinct illness. Same for Smallpox. And we've done that for longer than you've been alive.
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Jul 13, 2014 03:11
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Ogmius815 posted:There are ways to research Thalidomide without risking an epidemic of an extinct illness. The risk isn't comparable. Sorry again I'm not the caricature you want me to be. I'm going to point out this is literally a position espoused by Karl Pilkington. If that doesn't tell you something, I'm not sure what will.
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Jul 13, 2014 03:12
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Ogmius815 posted:There are ways to research Thalidomide without risking an epidemic of an extinct illness. We. Have. A. Vaccine. You. Idiot. It would not get beyond a small group of infection, if at *ALL*. The loving security measures are obscene, and you're basically saying that we cannot ever take any risks on anything, even if there's no mathematically significant chance.
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Jul 13, 2014 03:13
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Nintendo Kid posted:Hypotheticals aren't needed because scientists are using smallpox for research every single day. Meanwhile all you can come up with is "I literally believe science works like Jurassic Park and will kill us all". Hypotheticals absolutely are needed. E-tank thinks that smallpox research might eventually save "billions of lives". He needs to offer some account of how that might happen or else he's writing science fiction. E-Tank posted:We. Have. A. Vaccine. You. Idiot. Great, so how will research help? Why do we need that research to save billions of lives? If smallpox is already a non-threat, why bother?
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Jul 13, 2014 03:14
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E-Tank posted:It would not get beyond a small group of infection, if at *ALL*. The loving security measures are obscene, and you're basically saying that we cannot ever take any risks on anything, even if there's no mathematically significant chance. That's emphatically not what I am saying. I'm saying, if we take a risk, we should expect a reward. This is rational human behavior 101. You need to demonstrate that the reward you expect is more than a fantasy.
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Jul 13, 2014 03:17
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"Stop all research" - Ogmius815. Can we just post a list of things that were discovered by accident, without the inventor/discoverer knowing what they were looking for? I'll start us off - Penicillin.
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Jul 13, 2014 03:18
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Ogmius815 posted:Hypotheticals absolutely are needed. No they aren't, we're already using it for research and it's 100% safe. Really the best part is that we will never ever destroy the last smallpox and you're going to be living in fear due to your own ignorance to the last of your days. Ogmius815 posted:Great, so how will research help?
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Jul 13, 2014 03:18
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Praseodymi posted:"Stop all research" - Ogmius815. Oh look another stupid straw man.
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Jul 13, 2014 03:19
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Ogmius815 posted:That's emphatically not what I am saying. I'm saying, if we take a risk, we should expect a reward. This is rational human behavior 101. You need to demonstrate that the reward you expect is more than a fantasy. We are taking 0 risk. We may get some reward. Therefore it should be kept. This is simple!
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Jul 13, 2014 03:19
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Nintendo Kid posted:By finding things out. Find out as much as you want with other viruses that are really similar with the small exception of the fact they don't kill huge numbers of people. Knock yourself out. Hell, you can even experiment with dangerous viruses if you want I don't care. But you should have some loving inkling of how it could help.
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Jul 13, 2014 03:20
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