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FAUXTON posted:When he said this: You realize he wrote that after his march right? It's almost like it was part of the things that hosed him up or something.
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Jul 13, 2014 20:57
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Randalor posted:As a Canadian, let me be the first to say "Go gently caress yourself". Ignoring the fact that the underground railroad ended in Canada over 30,000 Canadians fought for the Union in the Civil War. Just because we had a couple hundred ignorant shitheads doesn't mean Canada supported slavery. Our hands aren't clean of having used slaves at one point in our history, but we were moving to abolish it before the 1800's, and it was fully abolished in 1833. quote:I guess what I'm trying to say is, Canada hasn't been okay on slavery for a good 30 years before USA finally started to realize that owning people isn't a good and righteous thing. No, Great Britain wasn't ok with slavery. Canada's backing the Confederacy against the Empire's desire to remain neutral was what caused enough political headaches for them to make colonial union a priority. Again, this is from your own link. gently caress along now.
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Jul 13, 2014 20:59
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Tatum Girlparts posted:You realize he wrote that after his march right? It's almost like it was part of the things that hosed him up or something. And you realize he expressed a near identical sentiment in his letters during the march, right? In particular his letter to Atlanta stands out.
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Jul 13, 2014 21:00
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Have the GOP come up with any workable ideas for the unaccompanied children crossing the border or do we have another "GOP health care reform proposal" situation on our hands? If my father is any indication (and he usually is) I 'm guessing the latter combined with a helping of "not whatever Obama has proposed."
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Jul 13, 2014 21:02
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Fried Chicken posted:I like how your "go gently caress yourself " link also includes the list of backing the Confederacy you are denying. He wasn't 'denying' poo poo he was saying it's a loving disgrace to the thousands who did fight for the union to be all 'hehehehe Canada was down with slavery and the confederacy' when actually the issue was really complex for them.
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Jul 13, 2014 21:02
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Getting pissed because bad things happen in war is like getting mad because points are scored in sports. Yeah, of course Dresden/Hiroshima/Atlanta were bad things. That was the loving point. Unless you're going for actual extermination you win a war by making the other side say "gently caress that we've had enough, we give up". Which requires horrible poo poo to be done.
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Jul 13, 2014 21:03
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Fried Chicken posted:And you realize he expressed a near identical sentiment in his letters during the march, right? In particular his letter to Atlanta stands out. Yes, that's what I'm saying rings hollow. His letter to Atlanta was literally 'gentlemen, war is Hell, but nah I'm gonna burn you to the ground, but trust me I'm very sorry and sad about that'. quote:You might as well appeal against the thunder-storm as against these terrible hardships of war. They are inevitable, and the only way the people of Atlanta can hope once more to live in peace and quiet at home, is to stop the war, which can only be done by admitting that it began in error and is perpetuated in pride. Also since you refuse to give context, this letter is in response to a letter saying 'hey man we can't really evacuate a huge city well, we have poor and pregnant and ill and you're probably going to literally kill them if they stay but we can't move them easily because they'll probably die on the way out' He presented the horrors of war as some grand inevitable force of nature when he was actually the one in charge of how horrific this one event would be. The 'people of Atlanta' couldn't end the war, even if they surrendered, and unless your stance is Sherman is probably one our dumbest generals ever he knew that.
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Jul 13, 2014 21:07
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Shifty Pony posted:Have the GOP come up with any workable ideas for the unaccompanied children crossing the border or do we have another "GOP health care reform proposal" situation on our hands? Basically, Obama should increase protection of the border, but should do it without spending extra money on DHS/ICE than he already has. Oh, and he should go to the border to At least that's my understanding. So to answer your question, yes, this is basically the same as the GOP health care reform proposal (do what we're doing now, but without spending any money on it and without letting Obama take credit for it)
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Jul 13, 2014 21:08
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Watching Southerners and Confederate sympathizers bitch and whine about Sherman, as if their loving evil and immoral slave empire didn't deserve everything that they got and more, will never get old.  Sherman was a good man and did nothing wrong. Could have used 10 more Shermans in the Civil War.
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Jul 13, 2014 21:08
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Mister Adequate posted:Getting pissed because bad things happen in war is like getting mad because points are scored in sports. Yeah, of course Dresden/Hiroshima/Atlanta were bad things. That was the loving point. Unless you're going for actual extermination you win a war by making the other side say "gently caress that we've had enough, we give up". Which requires horrible poo poo to be done. Isn't the end result of this logic that in any military conflict we should go straight to bombing roads and hospitals instead of military targets? Why prioritize military targets at all overseas, we don't even have to worry about their military coming over here. Eventually it will happen anyway so we might as well cut to the chase and end the conflict earlier, right?
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Jul 13, 2014 21:09
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FAUXTON posted:When he said this: Like Tatum said: The words of a guy who think's a loving badass over here.
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Jul 13, 2014 21:09
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wixard posted:Isn't the end result of this logic that in any military conflict we should go straight to bombing roads and hospitals instead of military targets? Why prioritize military targets at all overseas, we don't even have to worry about their military coming over here. Eventually it will happen anyway so we might as well cut to the chase and end the conflict earlier, right?
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Jul 13, 2014 21:13
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Fried Chicken posted:And you realize he expressed a near identical sentiment in his letters during the march, right? In particular his letter to Atlanta stands out. In particular his letter to Boyd immediately before the war proper (written when SC seceded) stands out as prototypical thinking regarding the naivete of Southern support for a war. I'm not sure I need to quote it, since it's the one everyone usually quotes as an "I told you so" stab. e: How are u posted:Watching Southerners and Confederate sympathizers bitch and whine about Sherman, as if their loving evil and immoral slave empire didn't deserve everything that they got and more, will never get old. Sherman himself probably wanted 10 more Shermans in the sense that he believed it would have ended the war earlier. And it may have - the Peninsula campaign may have been much different if McClellan was Sherman but this is getting to be a milhist derail and there's a thread for that. FAUXTON fucked around with this message at 21:19 on Jul 13, 2014 |
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Jul 13, 2014 21:16
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wixard posted:Isn't the end result of this logic that in any military conflict we should go straight to bombing roads and hospitals instead of military targets? Why prioritize military targets at all overseas, we don't even have to worry about their military coming over here. Eventually it will happen anyway so we might as well cut to the chase and end the conflict earlier, right? That really depends on what your goals are. If you want to occupy the territory, for example, you don't want to destroy infrastructure unless everything else fails.
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Jul 13, 2014 21:16
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Not the thread for this?
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Jul 13, 2014 21:18
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Chantilly Say posted:Not the thread for this? Definitely not the thread for this.
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Jul 13, 2014 21:20
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Fried Chicken posted:I like how your "go gently caress yourself " link also includes the list of backing the Confederacy you are denying. I... didn't deny that a small amount Canadian citizens fought on the side of the Confederacy? That's why I said "Just because we had a couple hundred ignorant shitheads doesn't mean Canada supported slavery" right after? I mean, that's like saying that the United States wants to enslave all the non-whites. After all, I'm sure you could find a couple hundred people in the South who feel that way, and the wants of a couple hundred people means that the nation wants it. quote:No, Great Britain wasn't ok with slavery. Canada's backing the Confederacy against the Empire's desire to remain neutral was what caused enough political headaches for them to make colonial union a priority. Again, this is from your own link. gently caress along now. Sure, that's what caused the tension, and not the capturing of two Confederate diplomats heading to Great Britain and France seeking diplomatic recognition and financial support for the Confederacy.
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Jul 13, 2014 21:29
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Tatum Girlparts posted:He wasn't 'denying' poo poo he was saying it's a loving disgrace to the thousands who did fight for the union to be all 'hehehehe Canada was down with slavery and the confederacy' when actually the issue was really complex for them.  " is denial of what happened and the geopolitics of the time. wixard posted:Isn't the end result of this logic that in any military conflict we should go straight to bombing roads and hospitals instead of military targets? Why prioritize military targets at all overseas, we don't even have to worry about their military coming over here. Eventually it will happen anyway so we might as well cut to the chase and end the conflict earlier, right? Assuming you aren't using ICBMs you prioritize military targets so that you can get into position to strike their infrastructure. If you are using ICBMs you prioritize military targets to deny their strike capacity against your infrastructure. But yes, in the big view that is the end result of it, which is why this was the doctrine of the Cold War and their strike priority tiers - take out their attack capacity, then step through their civil infrastructure moving down the list in terms of relevance to military operations. For example, the town I went to college in had bomb shelters in most of the buildings because back in the 60s there was a ball bearing plant located there, making it on the 3rd tier of strike targets.
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Jul 13, 2014 21:31
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William Tecumseh Sherman was not only a loving badass he did literally everything correct in the civil war.
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Jul 13, 2014 21:37
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Nonsense posted:William Tecumseh Sherman was not only a loving badass he did literally everything correct in the civil war. Conversely he was Literally Hitler and committed five war crimes every morning before breakfast, which itself was a war crime because it consisted of a feast on the suffering and sorrow of the mothers whose children he put to the firing squad.
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Jul 13, 2014 21:39
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ComradeCosmobot posted:Basically, Obama should increase protection of the border, but should do it without spending extra money on DHS/ICE than he already has. Giant wall made of old tires obviously. If those thug larva make it over they deserve to be US citizens.
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Jul 13, 2014 21:41
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Randalor posted:I... didn't deny that a small amount Canadian citizens fought on the side of the Confederacy? That's why I said "Just because we had a couple hundred ignorant shitheads doesn't mean Canada supported slavery" right after? I mean, that's like saying that the United States wants to enslave all the non-whites. After all, I'm sure you could find a couple hundred people in the South who feel that way, and the wants of a couple hundred people means that the nation wants it. Yeah, you are right, it was just that one incident and totally not the 25 years of low level border war of raids on both sides of the border as back and forth retaliation for backing the Confederacy and then the usual "blood demands blood" self perpetuating bullshit. Fried Chicken fucked around with this message at 21:51 on Jul 13, 2014 |
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Jul 13, 2014 21:49
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FAUXTON posted:Conversely he was Literally Hitler and committed five war crimes every morning before breakfast, which itself was a war crime because it consisted of a feast on the suffering and sorrow of the mothers whose children he put to the firing squad. Nope and apparently didn't destroy enough of the South.
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Jul 13, 2014 21:50
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Mister Adequate posted:Getting pissed because bad things happen in war is like getting mad because points are scored in sports. Yeah, of course Dresden/Hiroshima/Atlanta were bad things. That was the loving point. Unless you're going for actual extermination you win a war by making the other side say "gently caress that we've had enough, we give up". Which requires horrible poo poo to be done. Edit: thought this was a history thread, takin-a-poo poo postin, this is a dumb USPol derail my b. sugar free jazz fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Jul 13, 2014 |
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Jul 13, 2014 21:57
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sugar free jazz posted:Fwiw I do believe that wanting complete extermination of the Japanese as a civilization was a common position during WW2, especially in the European theatre American forces. Don't remember Truman being pro-extermination but a bunch of military commanders and a huge percentage of soldiers in the Pacific sure as poo poo were. Supposedly, Bull Halsey said, "After this war, the Japanese language will be spoken only in Hell," upon returning with the carrier fleet to Pearl Harbor shortly after the attack. So yeah, massive and at times homicidal racism was par for the course in the Pacific War with both American and Japanese forces (Chinese, Anglo-Dutch, and Soviet forces I can't speak for, but would suspect it would be similar except perhaps for the Red Army which got in late, and had its hate-sights set squarely on the Germans, understandably). For example, since I've posted this image before, 
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Jul 13, 2014 22:01
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How are u posted:Watching Southerners and Confederate sympathizers bitch and whine about Sherman, as if their loving evil and immoral slave empire didn't deserve everything that they got and more, will never get old. Seriously it's loving hilarious how just saying his name gets white southerners all riled up over the suffering of people supporting LITERAL chattel slavery 150 years ago. William Tecumseh Sherman
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Jul 13, 2014 22:03
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Probably a bit of a stretch, but does anyone have a graph comparing government subsidiaries vs government capital expenditures over time? I saw one for India earlier this week and I was hoping their was a US one. Preferably one that counts tax expenditures as well as direct outlays.
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Jul 13, 2014 22:14
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Now that we have two threads dedicated to hashing out which section of the country has the real racists, we can finally solve this age old argument
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Jul 13, 2014 22:31
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It's three now actually.
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Jul 13, 2014 22:35
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Mister Adequate posted:Getting pissed because bad things happen in war is like getting mad because points are scored in sports. Yeah, of course Dresden/Hiroshima/Atlanta were bad things. That was the loving point. Unless you're going for actual extermination you win a war by making the other side say "gently caress that we've had enough, we give up". Which requires horrible poo poo to be done. Never thought I'd see a Dresden apologist in D&D. Well, maybe Amergin, but not someone doing it genuinely.
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Jul 13, 2014 22:50
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Wolfsheim posted:Never thought I'd see a Dresden apologist in D&D. Well, maybe Amergin, but not someone doing it genuinely. *in a von Moltke voice* Well you see, a war that is terrible will also by necessity be short, ergo
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Jul 13, 2014 22:52
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My favorite part of Sherman burning Atlanta was when he captured it on September 1, wrote the infamous letter telling everyone to GTFO, and immediately burned it to the ground... November 14th but made it a point to spare the hospitals and churches.
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Jul 13, 2014 22:54
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Captain_Maclaine posted:Supposedly, Bull Halsey said, "After this war, the Japanese language will be spoken only in Hell," upon returning with the carrier fleet to Pearl Harbor shortly after the attack. So yeah, massive and at times homicidal racism was par for the course in the Pacific War with both American and Japanese forces (Chinese, Anglo-Dutch, and Soviet forces I can't speak for, but would suspect it would be similar except perhaps for the Red Army which got in late, and had its hate-sights set squarely on the Germans, understandably). Dehumanizing your enemy (so it's easier emotionally to ignore the human cost of war actions) has been the goal of practically every wartime leader since forever. It's no less reprehensible but it isn't like you can hang that squarely on America as though it was invented there. America sure has internalized and developed it to the extreme, though. That's definitely something worth charging. Not only does the military objectify "the enemy" but people here engage in the same actions within political discourse. You're not a person, you're some quantum title of whatever political leanings your critic thinks apply. It's a lot easier to convince someone listening to their radio to put a bullet in the head of "liberals" rather than the shop owner down the street or the nuns in the church next door. It's the new racism but the old racism isn't even dying out.
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Jul 13, 2014 22:57
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ComradeCosmobot posted:Basically, Obama should increase protection of the border, but should do it without spending extra money on DHS/ICE than he already has. The "We won't give you money to do anything because you aren't presently doing anything!" refrain is a pretty great setup they have. My father was ranting about spending $50k per person as though we were just handing them a check. Also amusing is that in every protest group I've seen has been someone with an infowars sign. Surely the GOP must realize that courting that crowd makes for public relations disaster after the birther thing but it doesn't seem like they got the message. So it should come as no surprise that more conspiracy theory bullshit is seeping in as the GOP tries to find a more defensible position than deporting 4 year olds. Check out this in World Net Daily land (probably also at full  on Alex Jones and his ilk but I have lines I'm not willing to cross and sifting through infowars is one of them):quote:http://www.wnd.com/2014/07/expert-mideasterners-pay-50000-to-sneak-into-u-s/#QLYD2eHPS2MfzbtA.99 And just so you don't think that this is confined to the online conspiracy rags, let's hear from Gov Good Hair: quote:“This president, I will suggest, is totally and absolutely either inept or making some decisions that are not in the best interests of American citizens,” Perry said during that interview with Fox News.
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Jul 13, 2014 22:59
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Shifty Pony posted:And just so you don't think that this is confined to the online conspiracy rags, let's hear from Gov Good Hair: I wish that nakedly preying on the fear of the uninformed and/or racist wasn't so easy and effective as a political tactic.
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Jul 13, 2014 23:13
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Sherman's Christmas present to President Lincoln was destroying Savannah. On the subject of border patrol, my favorite Michigan Libertarian, Scott Boman, published his thoughts on what to do with the immigrant children. Let American parents adopt them because then American women don't have to go through labor pains, or they can move into Detroit and go to work on the urban farms in the city. Oh, and it doesn't matter if the kids are white or brown, all welfare comes from theft, not charity. 
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Jul 13, 2014 23:14
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Shifty Pony posted:
This might actually be a big deal if it were true. I've seen nothing that supports this bullshit. Is there any evidence of actual mid-east immigrants coming across the U.S. Mexico border? edit: a quick google search and review of the link in the link cited indicates the answer to my question is "gently caress NO"! Perry is such a useless dick. radical meme fucked around with this message at 23:36 on Jul 13, 2014 |
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Jul 13, 2014 23:31
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Is it OK if ShermanChat goes here? http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3648518&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=12
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Jul 13, 2014 23:34
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HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:Sherman's Christmas present to President Lincoln was destroying Savannah. Which is funny because he had zero intentions of actually destroying Savannah. His troops got wasted and torched the city to celebrate surviving the march to the sea and Sherman's reaction to it was "eh gently caress it, they kinda earned it".
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Jul 13, 2014 23:36
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radical meme posted:This might actually be a big deal if it were true. What a perfect summation of right wing media. Anyway these rumors of "terrorists" crossing the border are why that militia group found a "muslin prayer rug" (Adidas jersey) in Southwest Texas. edit: Also a refrain from the right wing is for Obama to send in the national guard. Of course they don't want to pay for it and it would do gently caress-all because these kids are actively seeking out BP agents to surrender to because that's what they have been told to do by the coyotes. Shifty Pony fucked around with this message at 00:05 on Jul 14, 2014 |
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Jul 13, 2014 23:54
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