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Ableist Kinkshamer posted:There seems to be an unstated assumption here that cops should treat dogs like little people. I hate to break this to you, but dogs aren't people. I understand that this is hard for some to grasp since they get so emotionally invested and attached to them. I'm not sure what you're talking about as far as other options (hit it with a baton? dog has successfully distracted you. pepper spray it? i'm not sure that would actually be effective in most situations). Way to completely fail to answer my question. Why is lethal force the go to for dealing with animals?
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Jul 13, 2014 20:36
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Ableist Kinkshamer posted:Don't conflate shooting dogs with legitimate issues of police brutality, it isn't doing you any favors. You posted that overzealous brutality (towards humans) helped save police officers lives, though. So do you think that is justified? You are saying "don't conflate it with legitimate issues of police brutality" but since you posted that police brutality was necessary to prevent causalities, it sure looks like you are okay with it whether the shooting is aimed towards dogs or people.
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Jul 13, 2014 20:38
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Ableist Kinkshamer posted:This is what I'm talking about when I say people are blinded by emotion. Shooting dogs is perfectly justified; just because you know your dog is a sweetheart and loves people doesn't mean a stranger can tell that. Police can't take the risk that it's some kind of attack dog. Not even considering the cop's perspective of not wanting to be bit by a dog, it's in the public's best interest for the police to not expose themselves to unnecessary risk of death while doing their job. What's this bullshit about being blinded by emotion? Why is it not being blinded by emotion for you to value the lives of dogs less than the occasional bite to a cop? You haven't done a good job of explaining your own position, you just snipe at the statements of others to the apparent satisfaction of no one but yourself.
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Jul 13, 2014 20:44
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As if "you don't know what it's LIKE out there you armchair quarterback, I'll shoot you! Stop resisting!" is some sort of fortress of Vulcan-like rationality or isn't literally the only argument cop defenders have.
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Jul 13, 2014 20:47
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Ableist Kinkshamer posted:This is what I'm talking about when I say people are blinded by emotion. Sarcasm on a comedy web forum? Say it ain't so.  Ableist Kinkshamer posted:Shooting dogs is perfectly justified; just because you know your dog is a sweetheart and loves people doesn't mean a stranger can tell that. Police can't take the risk that it's some kind of attack dog. You're right. I suppose they can't possibly follow the thought process of making sure the animal isn't hostile or dangerous before attempting to storm a building. And they couldn't follow the controversial path of not loving going into a yard where there's a dog without the owner around to tell them if it is or isn't friendly. Though then we have animals that the owner says is totally friendly, and the cop shoots anyway. Because cops are bastards.
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Jul 13, 2014 20:47
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Mormon Star Wars posted:You posted that overzealous brutality (towards humans) helped save police officers lives, though. So do you think that is justified? Not really. I definitely think they should show more restraint in general. There's a continuum between having no police at all and an excessively brutal police state, where exactly we should be I don't claim to have the answers to. Seems kind of morbid, but I like the idea of having their pay tied to the rates at which they die on the job (i.e. more dangerous job = more pay). Seems like it might incentivize them to not go overboard as they'd want to otherwise, but I literally just made that up so it's probably dumb and unworkable.
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Jul 13, 2014 20:47
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meat sweats posted:As if "you don't know what it's LIKE out there you armchair quarterback, I'll shoot you! Stop resisting!" is some sort of fortress of Vulcan-like rationality or isn't literally the only argument cop defenders have. The main argument that cop critics have is "I definitely would have done things differently if I were that cop" which is basically the definition of armchair quarterbacking.
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Jul 13, 2014 20:49
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Ableist Kinkshamer posted:The main argument that cop critics have is "I definitely would have done things differently if I were that cop" which is basically the definition of armchair quarterbacking. I don't think I've ever seen that argument and I spend an inordinate amount of time reading about and watching videos of police brutality. Not to say that people DON'T make that argument, but I'd like to see an example.
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Jul 13, 2014 20:54
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E-Tank posted:So is Ableist playing devil's advocate, or does he legit believe that cops can do no wrong and we are blessed when they kill only our dogs and not us? He didn't say that at all tho so what are you really asking here
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Jul 13, 2014 20:54
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ImAMinister posted:I don't think I've ever seen that argument and I spend an inordinate amount of time reading about and watching videos of police brutality. Not to say that people DON'T make that argument, but I'd like to see an example. You should probably get out of your house and away from your computer more you loving weirdo.
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Jul 13, 2014 20:55
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"Paying attention to state abuse? Nurd."  Ableist Kinkshamer posted:I literally just made that up so it's probably dumb and unworkable. This applies to a lot you've said up to this point.
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Jul 13, 2014 20:55
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Cole posted:You should probably get out of your house and away from your computer more you loving weirdo. Cool thanks
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Jul 13, 2014 20:56
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Cole posted:He didn't say that at all tho so what are you really asking here E-Tank posted:Sarcasm on a comedy web forum? Say it ain't so. 
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Jul 13, 2014 21:00
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Ableist Kinkshamer if you were king of America would you ban people from owning dogs? I mean they sound pretty dangerous.
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Jul 14, 2014 01:18
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Ableist Kinkshamer posted:The main argument that cop critics have is "I definitely would have done things differently if I were that cop" which is basically the definition of armchair quarterbacking. As opposed to every single cop that posts in here qualifying virtually every incident as outliers or spouting hand-waving bullshit? Flashbang in a crib? Parents were well armed maniacs! Epidemic of dog shooting? Isolated occurrences! Widespread and well-documented systemic minority harassment? Biotruths, I mean, statistics! Drug war a massive failure? We just haven't been doing prohibition quite the right way and all junkies are terrible!
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Jul 14, 2014 01:33
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Ableist Kinkshamer has a cop dad so he can tell you from experience that they are strict, but fair.
Miltank fucked around with this message at 01:43 on Jul 14, 2014 |
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Jul 14, 2014 01:38
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In fact, why should we trust what cops say at all?quote:Several Durham police officers lied about non-existent 911 calls to try to convince residents to allow them to search their homes, a tactic several lawyers say is illegal. The officers targeted residences where individuals with outstanding warrants were thought to be living, and told them that dispatch had received a 911 call from that address, when no such call had been made. Eagerly awaiting the typical "WELL ACTUALLY ACCORDING TO*fart*" from the usuals. Ahahaha, today's headlines just keep on giving. quote:Dallas Northington spent nearly eight years working for Target in loss prevention, roaming the stores and scanning the surveillance cameras. In an episode at the Leesburg Target store in May that he said was typical, a man was allegedly captured twice on video shoplifting, and Northington responded as he said he always did: He called the Leesburg police, made a report and provided them the videos of the two incidents. ryonguy fucked around with this message at 01:47 on Jul 14, 2014 |
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Jul 14, 2014 01:43
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ryonguy posted:a tactic several lawyers say is illegal And honestly, I don't give a singe poo poo anymore what is official department policy and what isn't, since it's clear that doesn't matter to cops either. edit: I mean, every workplace has official rules and then "wink wink" rules, but other workplaces don't have guns and power to get into people's houses like the police do. Samurai Sanders fucked around with this message at 01:51 on Jul 14, 2014 |
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Jul 14, 2014 01:48
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Miltank posted:Ableist Kinkshamer has a cop dad I keep forgetting that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zY0--b6DLqQ
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Jul 14, 2014 02:08
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Miltank posted:Ableist Kinkshamer has a cop dad so he can tell you from experience that they are strict, but fair. Based on that I have way more experience dealing with cops than anyone in this thread ever will. It's weird, but they're actually human beings, if you can believe that. Keep on shrieking about how they're pure evil while holding them to the standard of saints.
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Jul 14, 2014 02:54
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Sainthood requires the performance of three miracles in the candidate's lifetime. However, in practice only two miracles are required, since "managing not to shoot any dogs" is a miracle in itself.
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Jul 14, 2014 02:57
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If you want to just vent and rage about hosed up poo poo that cops have done, well that's fine, carry on. If you're interested in actual solutions to police brutality, you can start by not trivializing it by lumping in the dog shooting poo poo with it, also by realizing that the main issue is the lack of accountability and not the fact that cops are all secretly cackling demons.
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Jul 14, 2014 03:02
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Ableist Kinkshamer posted:Based on that I have way more experience dealing with cops than anyone in this thread ever will. It's weird, but they're actually human beings, if you can believe that. Keep on shrieking about how they're pure evil while holding them to the standard of saints. Nothing you have posted excuses rampant misbehavior by cops in agencies all across the country. Ableist Kinkshamer posted:If you want to just vent and rage about hosed up poo poo that cops have done, well that's fine, carry on. If you're interested in actual solutions to police brutality, you can start by not trivializing it by lumping in the dog shooting poo poo with it, also by realizing that the main issue is the lack of accountability and not the fact that cops are all secretly cackling demons. You read too much into this, but many of us will take umbrage with trivializing the shooting of pets. It's not that much different from shooting a family member to most people and it shows the lack of regard that officers have with civilians, their rights, and their property. The dog shooting is a demonstration of how above-the-law the police are. They can invade your property, detain you, destroy property, and EVEN cause gross bodily harm to living creatures in your home based on false pretext, mistaken identity, or basic laziness. You are right about one thing: there's no accountability. Even the most egregious incidents are impossible to litigate, much like having your name stricken from the No Fly List. anonumos fucked around with this message at 03:13 on Jul 14, 2014 |
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Jul 14, 2014 03:08
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Ableist Kinkshamer posted:If you want to just vent and rage about hosed up poo poo that cops have done, well that's fine, carry on. If you're interested in actual solutions to police brutality, you can start by not trivializing it by lumping in the dog shooting poo poo with it, also by realizing that the main issue is the lack of accountability and not the fact that cops are all secretly cackling demons.
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Jul 14, 2014 03:12
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Ableist Kinkshamer posted:If you want to just vent and rage about hosed up poo poo that cops have done, well that's fine, carry on. If you're interested in actual solutions to police brutality, you can start by not trivializing it by lumping in the dog shooting poo poo with it, also by realizing that the main issue is the lack of accountability and not the fact that cops are all secretly cackling demons. Yes because cops should have to stop and think about if they should in fact destroy a young boy's childhood by shooting his dog because he thought he smelled something weird. Because cops do not hesitate to gun down animals when they charge in on non-knocking warrents. Because cops have a tendency to go to the WRONG loving HOUSE to burst in and gun down everything that doesn't immediately cower before the jackbooted thugs. http://www.salon.com/2013/08/29/11_over_the_top_u_s_police_raids_that_victimized_innocents/ http://reason.com/blog/2012/08/10/st-paul-cops-shoot-dog-in-wrong-door-rai Oh this one is even better. quote:"Defendants shot and killed the family dog and forced the handcuffed children to sit next to the carcass of their dead and bloody pet for more than an hour while defendants continued to search the plaintiffs' home." Please tell me how the cops were totally justified in scarring these children for life, and forcing another one to almost die.
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Jul 14, 2014 03:19
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E-Tank posted:Yes because cops should have to stop and think about if they should in fact destroy a young boy's childhood by shooting his dog because he thought he smelled something weird. Because cops do not hesitate to gun down animals when they charge in on non-knocking warrents. Because cops have a tendency to go to the WRONG loving HOUSE to burst in and gun down everything that doesn't immediately cower before the jackbooted thugs. Hey, I never said everything cops ever did that involved shooting a dog was justified. Shooting dogs makes sense, though. I don't care if it's a member of your family, if a member of your family points a gun at a cop, they're going to get shot and killed, likewise if your family member is a charging dog.
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Jul 14, 2014 03:26
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Ableist Kinkshamer posted:Hey, I never said everything cops ever did that involved shooting a dog was justified. Ableist Kinkshamer posted:This is what I'm talking about when I say people are blinded by emotion. Shooting dogs is perfectly justified; Ableist Kinkshamer posted:likewise if your family member is a charging dog. Charging dog, excited puppy wanting to say hello, there's absolutely no way to tell the difference, nor is there anyway to maybe stop the dog without just unloading a bullet through its brain. Like I said before, if a cop shot one of my dogs, I don't know what I'd do. I honestly don't. I know that if I wasn't in the most serene state of thought imaginable at that point I might try and hurt that officer, when I had no intention of doing so beforehand. E-Tank fucked around with this message at 03:35 on Jul 14, 2014 |
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Jul 14, 2014 03:29
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ryonguy posted:As opposed to every single cop that posts in here qualifying virtually every incident as outliers or spouting hand-waving bullshit? Flashbang in a crib? Parents were well armed maniacs! Epidemic of dog shooting? Isolated occurrences! Widespread and well-documented systemic minority harassment? Biotruths, I mean, statistics! Drug war a massive failure? We just haven't been doing prohibition quite the right way and all junkies are terrible! And then there's the standard, painting critics as either anarchists or scofflaws who hate the cops because they stand in the way of our sweet, sweet lawbreaking. Which really bugs me because I believe that law enforcement is essential for running a just, peaceful society that protects people's civil rights. A couple years ago, I was that person saying "Come on guys, most cops are good, it's a tough job and somebody needs to do it and I'm glad they're there." And then I found that the actual police system we have has very little to do with the functions for which it's named. I'm not anti-police, I'm anti-criminal syndicates calling themselves "Police." I think we very much can and should have a better police system in the US. We need to get rid of the almost total impunity that cops (and prosecutors and judges) enjoy and make them criminally and civilly accountable for abuses. Get rid of the War on Drugs, of course. Draw up strict rules limiting the use of SWAT to situations where lives are actually at risk. Give cops training to deescalate situations instead of escalate. Have all beat cops wear cameras throughout their whole shift. Yes, those last two cost money, but I would be happy to pay higher taxes for that. Especially given the extraordinary reduction in abuses and use-of-force that camera pilot programs have demonstrated already. That's the one thing that gets me hopeful.
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Jul 14, 2014 04:09
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Cichlid the Loach posted:Especially given the extraordinary reduction in abuses and use-of-force that camera pilot programs have demonstrated already. That's the one thing that gets me hopeful. I heard that police unions have already gotten it so that police can turn off the cameras whenever they goddamned feel like it.
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Jul 14, 2014 05:05
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E-Tank posted:I heard that police unions have already gotten it so that police can turn off the cameras whenever they goddamned feel like it.
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Jul 14, 2014 05:07
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Samurai Sanders posted:Wouldn't that hurt them just as much as it helps them? They'd go back to having no defense against false complaints from people they deal with. I dunno, all I know is what I heard. And they're threatening to sue if they're brought in. http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2012/may/07/police-union-threatens-legal-action-over-metros-de/
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Jul 14, 2014 05:10
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Ableist Kinkshamer posted:Hey, I never said everything cops ever did that involved shooting a dog was justified. Shooting dogs makes sense, though. I don't care if it's a member of your family, if a member of your family points a gun at a cop, they're going to get shot and killed, likewise if your family member is a charging dog. How about when the dog's locked up in a cage/kennel? Is there still a reasonable concern that the dog could spontaneously break loose, clamp its jaw on a cop's leg, and cause the cops to fall victim to an ambush by the VC?
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Jul 14, 2014 06:37
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Cops are humans and if you give humans a gun and the authority to shoot pretty much anything they want with no consequences awful things happen. Thanks for stating the obvious. See my robot cop proposal is looking more appealing by the day, isn't it?
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Jul 14, 2014 09:56
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:How about when the dog's locked up in a cage/kennel? Is there still a reasonable concern that the dog could spontaneously break loose, clamp its jaw on a cop's leg, and cause the cops to fall victim to an ambush by the VC? The recent outbreak of dogs getting shot up while in their kennel would suggest that yes the dog is dangerous anyway.
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Jul 14, 2014 12:24
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Cole posted:The recent outbreak of dogs getting shot up while in their kennel would suggest that yes the dog is dangerous anyway. Agreed. Dogs need to be stored in airtight containers, so they don't revert to their gaseous form and escape.
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Jul 14, 2014 12:33
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I'm seeing more and more stories about dogs and people both being brutalized or killed simply for annoying an officer. Dog yapping in its crate, posing no danger but annoying as hell? Shoot the fucker, complete with officer ON TAPE saying so. Man asking about his rights, complying but still requesting information "out of turn"? Punch that fucker in the gut with your baton, please. Mentally ill woman with her arm twisted at an unnatural angle, trying very hard to not resist but human physiology says "It don't bend that way!" Taser to the tits! "gently caress YEH! I love this job."
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Jul 14, 2014 12:54
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Ableist Kinkshamer posted:Based on that I have way more experience dealing with cops than anyone in this thread ever will. It's weird, but they're actually human beings, if you can believe that. Keep on shrieking about how they're pure evil while holding them to the standard of saints. Sorry dude but if you have literal power over life and death then anything less than the standard of saints is unacceptable. Any person with the level of power police officers have should be held accountable for everything. Every t should be crossed, every i dotted, or you don't get the power to make the decisions you do.
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Jul 14, 2014 13:49
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So let's say you're about to break someone's door and you know they have a dog who could be dangerous (which you should in almost all cases, because you should scout the place out beforehand). Why not prepare, like, standard dog-handling techniques? Don't most police forces have dog units anyway?
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Jul 14, 2014 14:15
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My dog would definitely be shot dead by police. He gets way too excited when he meets new people for the first time.  Pets are an enormous part of American family life and police are supposed to work with the American people and their families. There's no reason why a cop shouldn't have the barest of knowledge how to predict how dogs will act and react towards you.
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Jul 14, 2014 14:20
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In an effort to put this thread onto some sort of new track.... Let's all yell and call each other names about whether or not the increased reports of abhorrent behavior by some cops is a reflection on the fact that our society in general is more hateful and lovely. It seems that if cops are people hired from the community at large they would be fairly representative of the attitudes and behavior of the communities they come from. Do you guys think the culture of the community a cop works in can affect his/her behavior or attitude? How can that be corrected if so? I'm interested in seeing some more talk about what people would actually do to change things instead of people (on both sides) continuing the "us vs them" crap that we all know gets us nowhere. Unless you're all looking to just make this a thread to continue spewing the statistically factual statements about how every cop everywhere is a maniacal racist shithead who will never ever be held responsible for his actions and spends his every waking moment terrorizing people to get his rocks off.
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Jul 14, 2014 15:17
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