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I hope the next movie is 50 or so years into the future and has the apes forgetting the fact that humans are intelligent and leading into the how they were treated as animals in the original.
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Jul 13, 2014 06:47
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Mantis42 posted:The original movies are good for a marathon, in the same way the Rocky films are. The only bad movie in the franchise is the Burton one. Except for the other dozen or so.
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Jul 13, 2014 11:37
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Ethiser posted:I hope the next movie is 50 or so years into the future and has the apes forgetting the fact that humans are intelligent and leading into the how they were treated as animals in the original. The fact is that these films are so much about Caesar. I want to see the end of that guy's story, and I'd be surprised if the next film didn't end with his death. I think that's what makes the war in the next film seem so interesting to me. Koba's war was just hitting the humans really really hard. It was about punishing them as badly as possible. And he didn't care how many apes died in the name of that. Hell, he burned their home down to just to hurt the humans. Seeing how Caesar tackles them is going to be very, very different. I honestly hope the next film just ends Caesar's story and they let things be. I don't need a prettier version of the original. I would be happy if the next film ended with the humans basically winning, driving the apes out of the Bay Area. Have the human victory be too costly though. It's clear they cannot sustain themselves. Then show the apes in exodus with the last shot of them arriving in a nuclear devastated New York and finding the ruins of the Statue of Liberty.
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Jul 13, 2014 17:51
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Great interview with the screenwriter here http://www.theqandapodcast.com/2014/07/dawn-of-planet-of-apes-q.html
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Jul 13, 2014 17:58
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Another excellent front page review. 
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Jul 13, 2014 18:15
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Timeless Appeal posted:But in this film, the gorillas are very much depicted as defenders. There is that one little bit where the gorilla is just trying to carry as many chimps as he can. It's seems to paint the gorillas as not using their size and strength to be brutes, but seeing a responsibility in their size and strength to act as defenders. Well, to be fair, gorillas are quite passive by nature, so this seemed to really play into the role of gorillas as non-conquerors whereas chimps were a bit more aggressive. Sure, gorillas could pull your arms out of your body and beat you with them like you were made of twigs, but their nature is quite passive until provoked. They get pissed when their territory is threatened, but all out attacking is not something gorillas do in the wild, and I was appreciative of that small detail of that they were not portrayed as vicious brute killing machines...as chimps are way more violent.
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Jul 13, 2014 20:49
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not a single weird looking monkey butthole in this entire movie
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Jul 13, 2014 21:02
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Timeless Appeal posted:I think the problem in that is that it's ultimately boring to retread Planet of the Apes. I think this feeds into the only major misstep of Dawn. It'd be kinda boring to redo Planet Of The Apes, so if you're going to make more movies between the events of Rise and some far-off PoTA, there's a particular onus on making drat sure that each one carries a significant narrative along the way. Rise falters in that we're put headfirst into a timeframe where humanity's doom is already pretty much assured, so it sometimes feels like it's just going through the motions. Somewhat related, I just discovered that the guy who wrote the original PoTA novel wrote a sequel to the first movie. It's called Planet Of The Men. EDIT: Actually, I think I've just realized the major flaw in Dawn. How much more heartwarming would it have been had Ceasar called the man in the video his father and not just "A good man"? MisterBibs fucked around with this message at 04:07 on Jul 14, 2014 |
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Jul 13, 2014 22:23
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I was really pleased to see Andy Serkis's name get first billing in the credits
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Jul 14, 2014 03:54
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^^^ My thought exactly! Kind of tempted to track down some mocap footage.MisterBibs posted:How much more heartwarming would it have been had Ceasar called the man in the video his father and not just "A good man"? The choice of words subverts your expectation, allows a direct comparison to Malcolm, and implies good for goodness' sake instead of a father's obligation. Calling him father would be absurd. If that isn't too much subtlety to demand from a movie with a wall of flame leaping dual-M249 horseback chimpanzee wetly slapping off its cinematic thighs.
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Jul 14, 2014 05:05
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Aren't apes physically incapable of speech? Like their breathing parts are hooked up wrong and they can't talk no matter how smart they are. Does this ever get mentioned in the movies or do they just pass it by? Because a chimp talking would be incredibly surprising, and not for neurological reasons.
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Jul 14, 2014 07:28
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They seem to struggle to talk and their voices are grunty and rough. One could assume that their method of speech is similar to that of a human who has a damaged voicebox?
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Jul 14, 2014 07:36
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Arglebargle III posted:Aren't apes physically incapable of speech? Like their breathing parts are hooked up wrong and they can't talk no matter how smart they are. Does this ever get mentioned in the movies or do they just pass it by? Because a chimp talking would be incredibly surprising, and not for neurological reasons. No one loving cares so the film rightly decides not to mention this.
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Jul 14, 2014 09:34
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Arglebargle III posted:Aren't apes physically incapable of speech? Like their breathing parts are hooked up wrong and they can't talk no matter how smart they are. Does this ever get mentioned in the movies or do they just pass it by? Because a chimp talking would be incredibly surprising, and not for neurological reasons.
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Jul 14, 2014 13:36
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For the next film I wouldn't mind if they skipped forward radically in time, like 100, 200 years. Give us Fall of the Planet of the Apes.
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Jul 14, 2014 13:42
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I adored this movie but found it extremely problematic that they had to include a scene with a monkey throwing a barrel at the gate of Human Francisco. I thought we'd moved past the minstrel show that is Donkey Kong.
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Jul 14, 2014 13:52
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I really liked this movie, but at the same time I couldn't help but think it was all a big misunderstanding, but it feels like that's what makes the conflict of the movie so good, and argh. Malcolm never tells Caesar of the time limit he's working under, and he never tells Caesar of what the rest of the colony is doing in the background for what'll happen when that time is up, and a couple other instances where just way too little is said and nothing is explained enough and that's why everything just goes to poo poo after Koba does his thing. Even when some level of trust and rapport is reached after the dam cave-in/rescue, it feels like everyone is still playing all their cards too close to their chests. I'm not exactly saying that that's a point against the movie, I think it's very subtle, and why would the humans trust the apes with all the information in the first place? And maybe the humans don't think the apes will be able to comprehend a full explanation anyway. I find myself very conflicted, but I like the movie all the better because of it. I kept feeling like it was the July Crisis of 1914 all over again and poo poo was collapsing because nobody trusted each other and some people really wanted a fight regardless.
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Jul 14, 2014 14:27
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Did they discuss at all whether or not the world knew the apes that escaped from San Francisco were intelligent? I don't recall them mentioning the side-effect of ALZ-113 making apes sapient in the opening newsclip montage, only that it was tested on them and killed humans. I ask because as I watched I was a bit skeptical of the humans reaction to the apes. I can't imagine the apes being what they are is common knowledge. Especially since humanity had more important things to worry about, what with the apocalypse and all. But then they run into apes that can talk and the overall reaction is "Huh, that's weird and a little scary. But whatever, let's go talk to'em." There's no incredulous Oldman warning the team about getting high as poo poo before important expeditions. No deep discussion about the implications of there being another intelligent species on a planet that traditionally only harboured one. I don't even recall anyone really wondering how the gently caress it happened. Everyone just kind of accepted the premise and moved on.
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Jul 14, 2014 15:06
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flashy_mcflash posted:I adored this movie but found it extremely problematic that they had to include a scene with a monkey throwing a barrel at the gate of Human Francisco. I thought we'd moved past the minstrel show that is Donkey Kong. You found that "extremely" problematic? I don't even remember what scene you're talking about off the top of my head and certainly made no connection to Donkey Kong. Maybe you played too many video games as a kid? Was it also problematic that a talking chimpanzee dual wielded Uzis atop a horse running through a wall of fire?
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Jul 14, 2014 15:08
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You don't understand jokes
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Jul 14, 2014 15:21
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ShoogaSlim posted:You found that "extremely" problematic? I don't even remember what scene you're talking about off the top of my head and certainly made no connection to Donkey Kong. Maybe you played too many video games as a kid? 
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Jul 14, 2014 15:22
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It's a joke that suffers in the telling.
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Jul 14, 2014 15:26
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Esroc posted:Did they discuss at all whether or not the world knew the apes that escaped from San Francisco were intelligent? I don't recall them mentioning the side-effect of ALZ-113 making apes sapient in the opening newsclip montage, only that it was tested on them and killed humans. At the end of the first movie, the whole world (or at least San Francisco) knew that there was a whole clan (?) of intelligent apes that busted out of their zoo, wreaked havoc with downtown, were too many and too agile and too smart to be stopped by police and SWAT, but were convinced to go to the nearby forest and just stay out of humanity's way. Had the simian flu not been so viral and lethal, it's very likely that issues regarding a second sentient species would have been explored (or that the apes would have been "left alone" the same way Native Americans were "left alone" after being told to move west of the Appalachians) but humanity had a lot more problems at that point. I honestly couldn't tell if the humans were reacting to the apes based on foreknowledge of their intelligence or not, but I don't think it made a huge difference to my understanding of the plot either way
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Jul 14, 2014 15:27
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gradenko_2000 posted:At the end of the first movie, the whole world (or at least San Francisco) knew that there was a whole clan (?) of intelligent apes that busted out of their zoo, wreaked havoc with downtown, were too many and too agile and too smart to be stopped by police and SWAT, but were convinced to go to the nearby forest and just stay out of humanity's way. Did they actually know they were on par with human intelligence, though? If you view those events without any background knowledge as to how they got there and what went on behind the scenes, it's a bunch of animals that had been experimented (we know where they escaped from, so at least that much is a given) on running amok and trying to escape to an environment closest to what those kinds of animals would be most comfortable with. The only, I guess, outsiders who would really know something was seriously wrong would be the cops. Even from the perspective of the news helo, it'd just look like animals being animals. The second anyone stated, "are these assholes making tactically competent decisions? Cause that's what it looks like", they'd be laughed out of a job.
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Jul 14, 2014 16:05
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gradenko_2000 posted:
I don't think so, since various characters kept shouting "they're just apes!". I think the idea was, like you said, the apes' story got lost in the confusion and upheaval the virus wrought.
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Jul 14, 2014 16:06
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Saw it yesterday. Really enjoyed it.
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Jul 14, 2014 16:10
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I actually thought Dawn was really good. I liked it almost as much as Rise, which I thought was the best action movie of 2011. Happy to hear that they've already decided to continue the series.
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Jul 14, 2014 16:32
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Esroc posted:Did they discuss at all whether or not the world knew the apes that escaped from San Francisco were intelligent? I don't recall them mentioning the side-effect of ALZ-113 making apes sapient in the opening newsclip montage, only that it was tested on them and killed humans. I think after going through an extinction event due to the "simian flu" followed by a decade of upheaval that ground humanity down to almost nothing, discovering for the first time that there are some Apes that have gotten smart enough to speak and use tools would strike most people as "implausible, but not the strangest thing we've seen in the last 10 years."
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Jul 14, 2014 17:29
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ShoogaSlim posted:You found that "extremely" problematic? I don't even remember what scene you're talking about off the top of my head and certainly made no connection to Donkey Kong. Maybe you played too many video games as a kid? Those look like Uzis to you?
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Jul 14, 2014 17:31
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Amazing movie. Just a few weird lessons to be learned. What's funny is that in the very beginning if the humans just said gently caress it, and came in, torched the forest, and killed all the apes, there wouldn't be a crisis for humanity. The only reason the apes even had a chance was because while both sides were attempting peace, Koba took advantage and got the apes equipped with weapons quickly. There was even another opportunity if the main character just helped complete the C4 to destroy the tower, it'd probably completely collapse and kill them all again. Strange lessons. I get that peace would've been amazing to pull off but the price was extinction for humanity. Doing the right thing isn't exactly good feels if no one is alive to know it. Not to mention the apes certainly didn't care, despite Caesar feeling bad about it, as they're assholes to humans in the original Oddity posted:I was really pleased to see Andy Serkis's name get first billing in the credits I'd be even more pleased if he stopped trying to make the animators who brought his mocap acting alive seem like tech interns instead of actual actors and artists. I'm glad he's sorta realizing how dumb it makes him sound to the people that actually bring his work alive. http://www.cartoonbrew.com/ideas-commentary/andy-serkis-is-giving-more-credit-to-animators-now-101174.html quote:Andy Serkis Is Giving More Credit to the Animators Now vv-Skeptical that he's giving more credit or skeptical that he hasn't? Buckwheat Sings fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Jul 14, 2014 |
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Jul 14, 2014 19:08
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I'm automatically skeptical of any claims made in that because it's from Cartoon Brew.
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Jul 14, 2014 19:11
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This had some of the most transparent characters since Prometheus, except it wasn't funny. Every backstory had to be agonizingly explained and dissected - oh, he has a death wish because he misses his kids. It reduces the humans to backstory automata - who cares if they all die? Malcolm put me to sleep every time he was onscreen, and the "good man" thing should not have to have been said, except there was so little chemistry between him and everyone that it had to. Imagine if Caesar hadn't said "you are not ape" to Koba, and just dropped him instead - wouldn't that have been better? Instead, every decision has to be agonizingly dissected and presented in full justification (this, to me, is the distinguishing feature of middlebrow cinema), as if actions don't simply speak for themselves. Worse, there was no humor in it - the only funny scene came at exactly the wrong time (Koba dual-wielding assult rifles on horseback in slo-mo). The preciousness of the gas station scene was so meaningless next to the fact that apparently the survivors were such lovely people that they'd murder each other the moment the power goes out - this, in the Bay Area, where the temperature rarely drops below 45. The conflict was entirely motivated by people with some form of extreme PTSD - which is fine, I guess, but it's not like you need that in order to tell a story where two human-level-of-intelligence species scared of one another go to war against the other. No Wave fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Jul 14, 2014 |
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Jul 14, 2014 19:48
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Wasn't there humour in Koba aping around and acting friendly before blasting those guys to poo poo and walking off like a boss? because the audience I saw it with was dying at that scene.
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Jul 14, 2014 19:59
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I don't mind any of that because this is a two hour movie about ape pantomime.
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Jul 14, 2014 20:03
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I loved all of the ape stuff in this but all of the human stuff fell flat. The dialogue was so intrusively obtuse, and the family dynamic was not just undercooked but weird - the kid from The Road is now way too old to be playing the fragile introvert little boy character. It was totally bizarre to have this giant taxpaying man sullenly lurching about pretending to be a lonely little kid. There were a few great quiet moments that were annihilated by clumsy and unnecessary dialogue. It felt like an old comic book, where you'd have these beautiful panels sullied by idiotic redundant speech. That said, beautifully shot and all the ape stuff really was tremendously well done. Maybe the best depiction of a proto-human civilization ever filmed. J. H. Rosny and Kubrick would weep at that first twenty minutes.
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Jul 14, 2014 20:08
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Kodi Smit-McPhee is totally buyable as a sensitive young lad. Since Man of Steel I've been noticing how much poo poo would be improved with no dialogue. I almost wish there was more pantomime in the human scenes, since it's done so well with the ape stuff.
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Jul 14, 2014 20:15
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Kodi Smit-McPhee is totally buyable as a sensitive young lad. Since Man of Steel I've been noticing how much poo poo would be improved with no dialogue. I almost wish there was more pantomime in the human scenes, since it's done so well with the ape stuff. Look at any other post-apocalyptic thing from Walking Dead to The Road (which is such a colossal touchstone for this film) and it's clear that he's a full decade too old for that part to not be creepy and depressing in all the wrong ways. But yeah I agree about the no dialogue thing. It's a perennial issue in the era of "Weighty" Blockbusters, filmmakers seem to have a hard time figuring out how much they can trust the audience's perceptive abilities. Reeves's Cloverfield is still to me one of the best examples of powerful character development on the fly, so it's a shame he gets so bogged down in that here.
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Jul 14, 2014 20:21
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penismightier posted:Reeves's Cloverfield is still to me one of the best examples of powerful character development on the fly, so it's a shame he gets so bogged down in that here. Can you elaborate on this? Are you taking about the found footage kaiju film?
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Jul 14, 2014 20:24
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See, I never thought he was supposed to be like six years old. Like the chimp with the gorgeous blue eyes, I thought he was just meant to be frail and untested. They lay it on a little thick by introducing him as sensitive and artistic.
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Jul 14, 2014 20:25
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moths posted:Can you elaborate on this? Are you taking about the found footage kaiju film? Yeah, I think it did a great job defining people's ethics and personalities through their actions, from the main throughline of the plot (running through hell to save your friend) to little things like the lead calling his mom after his brother dies. Dawn constantly has to slow itself down to tell us who the characters are "he's a good man," "your father doesn't trust me," instead of just showing it to us through their actions. HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:They lay it on a little thick by introducing him as sensitive and artistic. Maybe it's just my own personal problems with that kind of personality because that just made me hate him. But he's way too old to be untested, it strained credibility for me. An 18 year old that clingy would raise red flags now, let alone in a post-apocalyptic situation where surely he'd have to prove himself at age like 12 or whatever. It's like if the kids in Stand By Me were Keifer Sutherland's age. penismightier fucked around with this message at 20:30 on Jul 14, 2014 |
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Jul 14, 2014 20:27
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