Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

Just The Facts posted:

The West should do everything they can to keep that fight going.

ISIS has taken care of that already.

# ? Jul 13, 2014 21:27

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# ? Jun 7, 2024 09:11

Cerebral Bore: Apr 21, 2010; Fun Shoe

Just The Facts posted:

The West should do everything they can to keep that fight going.

Just The Facts posted:

Execpt, no, we shouldn't.

Well, that lasted long.

# ? Jul 13, 2014 21:36

Muffiner: Sep 16, 2009

Just The Facts posted:

The West should do everything they can to keep that fight going.

Would you like that fight in front of your house, or is it all good as long as it's "there"?

# ? Jul 13, 2014 21:37

pro starcraft loser: Jan 23, 2006; Stand back, this could get messy.

Cerebral Bore posted:

Well, that lasted long.

Letting them go at it doesn't mean we have to supply weapons.

Muffiner posted:

Would you like that fight in front of your house, or is it all good as long as it's "there"?

That's why I want them to fight each other, so it stays "there".

Volkerball posted:

ISIS has taken care of that already.

Huh?

# ? Jul 13, 2014 21:57

Captain_Maclaine: Sep 30, 2001; Every moment that I'm alive, I pray for death!

Just The Facts posted:

Huh?

ISIS has gone out of its way to alienate/murder groups that otherwise would be fellow-travellers if not outright allies.

# ? Jul 13, 2014 22:03

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

No rebel groups are going to stop fighting ISIS any time soon. They car bombed every bridge. But if you were implying that the fighting should just be prolonged as long as possible so that they weaken each other, that's dumb and also pretty hosed up. A ton of the guys fighting with JaN are Syrians who grew disenfranchised with the FSA and joined up with al-Nusra because they were better equipped and a better fighting force.

# ? Jul 13, 2014 22:07

pro starcraft loser: Jan 23, 2006; Stand back, this could get messy.

Yeah, I don't care why they joined an AQ affiliate.

# ? Jul 13, 2014 22:30

Malcolm: May 11, 2008

I thought Iraq was supposed to have some bad-rear end special forces, I wonder what they are up to in this conflict. Held in reserve? Guarding strategic locations? Operating behind the lines clandestinely? Don't actually exist?

http://www.thenation.com/article/iraqs-new-death-squad posted:

According to retired Lt. Col. Roger Carstens, US Special Forces are "building the most powerful force in the region." In 2008 Carstens, then a senior fellow at the Center for a New American Security, was an adviser to the Iraqi National Counter-Terror Force, where he helped set up the Iraqi counterterrorism laws that govern the ISOF.

"All these guys want to do is go out and kill bad guys all day," he says, laughing. "These guys are poo poo hot. They are just as good as we are. We trained 'em. They are just like us. They use the same weapons. They walk like Americans."

# ? Jul 13, 2014 23:02

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

Malcolm posted:

I thought Iraq was supposed to have some bad-rear end special forces, I wonder what they are up to in this conflict. Held in reserve? Guarding strategic locations? Operating behind the lines clandestinely? Don't actually exist?

Being US trained probably looks good on their CV when trying to get a job as a private security contractor.

# ? Jul 13, 2014 23:07

Ghost of Babyhead: Jun 28, 2008; Grimey Drawer

Malcolm posted:

I thought Iraq was supposed to have some bad-rear end special forces, I wonder what they are up to in this conflict. Held in reserve? Guarding strategic locations? Operating behind the lines clandestinely? Don't actually exist?

At the Baiji oil refinery, apparently.

quote:

As they were leaving, Ammar�s officers told him the military council had promised to provide safe passage out of Baiji for 24 hours.

�We only found out because we stopped their car,� Ammar said.

Once the minibus drove off, the soldiers began arguing among themselves about what to do. Meanwhile, the elite commandos � colloquially referred to as SWAT forces � tried to restore order.

�The commander of the SWAT, a captain, he was talking nonsense,� said one of Ammar�s friends, who gave his name as Mohammed. �He said, �Don�t give up the refinery! Fight against DAIISH!� �

Ammar said he concluded that if he didn�t run he would probably die. They were low on ammunition; the refinery complex had lost electricity and running water; and helicopters providing air support and supplies had stopped coming because the militants had antiaircraft guns mounted on pickup trucks.

Ammar joined a group of about 100 soldiers, who told the others they would test the deal offered by the tribes. If they weren�t killed, they would call to say it was safe to follow. The elite commandos were furious.

�They threatened to execute any soldier who tried to leave,� Mohammed said.

The commandos drew their weapons. The Iraqi army soldiers drew theirs. The elite forces were badly outnumbered.

�We said to them, �If you shoot at us, we�ll shoot at you,� � Ammar said. �So they backed down.�

Ammar changed out of his uniform and left on a minibus in the middle of the night.
�They let us down�

Despite the disappearance of the 37th Brigade, Baiji ultimately did not fall.

The elite commandos retreated to a corner of the complex and held out for days. When reinforcements finally arrived, the commandos battled outward to chase off the militants, who still control the surrounding area.

# ? Jul 13, 2014 23:53

Lustful Man Hugs: Jul 18, 2010

Just The Facts posted:

Yeah, I don't care why they joined an AQ affiliate.

You shouldn't make normative suggestions for international policy if you don't even want to consider people's motives and context.

# ? Jul 14, 2014 02:20

Horseshoe theory: Mar 7, 2005

ChaosSamusX posted:

You shouldn't make normative suggestions for international policy if you don't even want to consider people's motives and context.

Then again, the neocons did it and we ended up just swell! :downs:

# ? Jul 14, 2014 02:29

Sergg: Sep 19, 2005; I was rejected by the:

A shitload of Iraqi special forces were wounded or killed in Fallujah and Ramadi before ISIS kicked off its major offensive. They took horrendous casualties trying to retake those cities.

# ? Jul 14, 2014 03:43

cheesetriangles: Jan 5, 2011

I can't help but think of this whole affair in terms of Paradox games and the title doesn't help.

At what point does a multi nation effort to repel all this become a possibility? When ISIS starts trying to spill in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia?

# ? Jul 14, 2014 03:51

Rogue0071: Dec 8, 2009; Grey Hunter's next target.

cheesetriangles posted:

I can't help but think of this whole affair in terms of Paradox games and the title doesn't help.

At what point does a multi nation effort to repel all this become a possibility? When ISIS starts trying to spill in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia?

Annexing Iraq would probably give them enough AE for someone to form a coalition.

Seriously though, this is probably going to result in an extremely bloody stalemate outside of Baghdad between IS and other Sunni forces and Shia militias and what remains of the Iraqi army if IS turns its focus back to Iraq from Syria.

# ? Jul 14, 2014 04:14

whatever7: Jul 26, 2001; by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

cheesetriangles posted:

I can't help but think of this whole affair in terms of Paradox games and the title doesn't help.

At what point does a multi nation effort to repel all this become a possibility? When ISIS starts trying to spill in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia?

Why would any nation send in the troops, its US's mess.

The only realistic resolution is pay the Persians and the Kurds to keep the order. Kuwaitis and the Saudis can't fight for poo poo.

# ? Jul 14, 2014 04:38

Ogmius815: Aug 25, 2005; centrism is a hell of a drug

You would think the Saudis and Kuwaitis would be good for something what with their gigantic piles of money.

# ? Jul 14, 2014 04:43

Cocoa Ninja: Mar 3, 2007

Sergg posted:

A shitload of Iraqi special forces were wounded or killed in Fallujah and Ramadi before ISIS kicked off its major offensive. They took horrendous casualties trying to retake those cities.

Genuine curiosity, what constitutes a shitload? Is it that 200 killed is a huge proportion or that they've been genuinely decimated?

Also, how many "special forces" are there, and by whose definition? In the article above it seems like 50 were a very effective force against a couple hundred irregulars. But I also know that when reading about Central America anyone trained by school of the Americas was considered "special forces" by the media, even if that meant only battle tested against impoverished villagers.

# ? Jul 14, 2014 04:51

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

Cocoa Ninja posted:

Genuine curiosity, what constitutes a shitload? Is it that 200 killed is a huge proportion or that they've been genuinely decimated?

Also, how many "special forces" are there, and by whose definition? In the article above it seems like 50 were a very effective force against a couple hundred irregulars. But I also know that when reading about Central America anyone trained by school of the Americas was considered "special forces" by the media, even if that meant only battle tested against impoverished villagers.

Special as in their actions are especially heinous?

# ? Jul 14, 2014 04:54

Sergg: Sep 19, 2005; I was rejected by the:

Cocoa Ninja posted:

Genuine curiosity, what constitutes a shitload? Is it that 200 killed is a huge proportion or that they've been genuinely decimated?

Also, how many "special forces" are there, and by whose definition? In the article above it seems like 50 were a very effective force against a couple hundred irregulars. But I also know that when reading about Central America anyone trained by school of the Americas was considered "special forces" by the media, even if that meant only battle tested against impoverished villagers.

There are a lot more guys wounded than killed. You catch a 7.62mm round in the shoulder and you're effectively retired.

# ? Jul 14, 2014 05:42

Charliegrs: Aug 10, 2009

So yeah this doesn't look good. Apparently ISIS kicked the crap out of an Iraqi armored column and took out some ABRAMS and other American made armor. Ughh...
http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2014/07/islamic_state_routs.php

# ? Jul 14, 2014 05:47

suck my woke dick: Oct 10, 2012; I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!

Put this cum-loving slave on ignore immediately!

Charliegrs posted:

So yeah this doesn't look good. Apparently ISIS kicked the crap out of an Iraqi armored column and took out some ABRAMS and other American made armor. Ughh...
http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2014/07/islamic_state_routs.php

quote:

The Iraqi soldiers appear to have abandoned the convoy after it was ambushed. The Islamic State only displayed one body of an Iraqi soldier, who appears to have been burned.

Why am I not surprised?

# ? Jul 14, 2014 06:46

Pimpmust: Oct 1, 2008

Guess it's a good thing Iraq didn't get any M1A2 huh :ughh:

# ? Jul 14, 2014 07:51

ReV VAdAUL: Oct 3, 2004; I'm WILD about
WILDMAN

Just The Facts posted:

The West should do everything they can to keep that fight going.

In your opinion was the Iran Iraq war a good thing?

# ? Jul 14, 2014 09:29

SBJ: Apr 10, 2009; Apple of My Eye

Laughter in the Sky

How long until drone strikes against ISIS becomes a regular thing?

Also can they do anything against an airborne threat? If Turkey or Israel decided to send out fighters, how would ISIS fare?

# ? Jul 14, 2014 11:53

Shageletic: Jul 25, 2007

As previously posted, they seem to have anti-aircraft guns mounted on pickup trucks, but as far as their efficacy hell I know.

# ? Jul 14, 2014 12:25

rudatron: May 31, 2011; by Fluffdaddy

There's no guarantee that, having crushed ISIS, another similar group won't rise up again in those sunni areas. It's able to do what it can because it has local support, without an alternative with similar local support you not going to get anywhere. It's not possible to put iraq back together again, I don't think.

# ? Jul 14, 2014 12:35

i am harry: Oct 14, 2003

I love that they immediately cover their stolen million dollar American machines in garbage cans and assorted blankets.

# ? Jul 14, 2014 13:53

namesake: Jun 19, 2006; "When I was a girl, around 12 or 13, I had a fantasy that I'd grow up to marry Captain Scarlet, but he'd be busy fighting the Mysterons so I'd cuckold him with the sexiest people I could think of - Nigel Mansell, Pat Sharp and Mr. Blobby."

i am harry posted:

I love that they immediately cover their stolen million dollar American machines in garbage cans and assorted blankets.

Well what would you expect? Paint bullseyes on the top?

# ? Jul 14, 2014 14:08

Torpor: Oct 20, 2008; .. and now for my next trick, I'll pretend to be a political commentator...

HONK HONK

That is actually a good plan, we should give them tons of M1A1s and consume all of that oil they are currently selling for profit.

# ? Jul 14, 2014 14:19

FAUXTON: Jun 2, 2005; spero che tu stia bene

How difficult is the M1 to operate (even with a crude level of efficiency) without training? Or would there be defectors with the appropriate training within ISIS? I assume at least someone knows the basics of "how to work a tank," and I understand it isn't like they're neck-deep in ammo, but are there expectations that this will be used?

# ? Jul 14, 2014 15:41

eSports Chaebol: Feb 22, 2005; Yeah, actually, gamers in the house forever,

Malcolm posted:

I thought Iraq was supposed to have some bad-rear end special forces, I wonder what they are up to in this conflict. Held in reserve? Guarding strategic locations? Operating behind the lines clandestinely? Don't actually exist?

They answer to Maliki directly and not the army chain of command so at this point he probably needs them intact to fight a coup more than to fight ISIS.

# ? Jul 14, 2014 15:59

Saint Celestine: Dec 17, 2008; Lay a fire within your soul and another between your hands, and let both be your weapons.
For one is faith and the other is victory and neither may ever be put out.
- Saint Sabbat, Lessons; Grimey Drawer

FAUXTON posted:

How difficult is the M1 to operate (even with a crude level of efficiency) without training? Or would there be defectors with the appropriate training within ISIS? I assume at least someone knows the basics of "how to work a tank," and I understand it isn't like they're neck-deep in ammo, but are there expectations that this will be used?

I imagine someone will figure out how to use it, but if I recall, the M1 has quite the logistics train, so it'll probably be a "use until broken" type thing.

# ? Jul 14, 2014 16:03

whatever7: Jul 26, 2001; by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

Torpor posted:

That is actually a good plan, we should give them tons of M1A1s and consume all of that oil they are currently selling for profit.

Do you really think US can make the Iraqis pay for any hardware/equipment in Iraq?

No future Iraqi government of any kind will pay for any of that. US can only use the military toys to influence how will the Iraqis use their oil.

# ? Jul 14, 2014 16:08

eSports Chaebol: Feb 22, 2005; Yeah, actually, gamers in the house forever,

Saint Celestine posted:

I imagine someone will figure out how to use it, but if I recall, the M1 has quite the logistics train, so it'll probably be a "use until broken" type thing.

The one upside of the MIC: materiel so impractically expensive to maintain that our enemies can't afford to use it!

# ? Jul 14, 2014 16:08

Amergin: Jan 29, 2013; THE SOUND A WET FART MAKES

Any updates on Iranian involvement in the current situation in Iraq? I think last I heard it was possibly small numbers of Quds/other Iranian fighters in Iraq and Iranian military officials in Baghdad as advisers. Is it looking like, with recent Iraqi army routs, Iran might increase aid/military assistance in the region?

# ? Jul 14, 2014 16:09

whatever7: Jul 26, 2001; by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

Do you guys see the similarity between Maliki and Chiang Kai-shek (in 47, 48)? I think poo poo will hit the fans and it will end very badly for him.

# ? Jul 14, 2014 16:18

Exioce: Sep 7, 2003; by VideoGames

If the Kurds go ahead with their referendum, what's stopping the Shiites from their own for a bit of Anschluss with Iran?

# ? Jul 14, 2014 16:20

ProfessorCurly: Mar 28, 2010

Exioce posted:

If the Kurds go ahead with their referendum, what's stopping the Shiites from their own for a bit of Anschluss with Iran?

Thinking on it, for the people actually living there, would this be a bad option?

# ? Jul 14, 2014 16:22

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# ? Jun 7, 2024 09:11

suck my woke dick: Oct 10, 2012; I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!

Put this cum-loving slave on ignore immediately!

Border changes have a habit of blowing up into the next clusterfuck five years later. Then again, the situation in Iraq sounds like it can't go anywhere but up.

# ? Jul 14, 2014 16:30

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