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anonumos posted:You act like this is a witchhunt instead of powerless griping by Internet nerds. Do you really need to defend the behavior we've all grown to expect from ANY cop (rather than saying "every cop"). Just carrying on a discussion, friend. That's what this is for right? If not I'll be happy to go on my merry way.
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Jul 14, 2014 23:57
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SrgMagnum posted:How many times would you estimate is enough times to condemn almost 12,000 officers? Not terribly many, and I'm not condemning them for doing something bad, just for looking the other way. I spend a lot less time around police than other police officers do, but if I can, in person, see an officer do something illegal every 1-2 years then presumably other police have seen it at somewhere above that rate too. I'm sure there are more policy violations than outright illegal action, too, but I don't know enough about it to spot them. I also dislike the bad-apples theory but for different reasons: it absolves the responsible institutions of culpability. I think the bigger problem is department policies that encourage police to operate right on the edge of legal conduct at essentially all times. These department policies and training procedures tend to be established by un-elected police bureaucrats with little political accountability. It is they, and not the public as we would expect in a democracy, that determine how the public interact with the police and even which laws get enforced against whom. Here we're back to the issue of while it's technically legal to haul anyone off to jail for jaywalking, it always seems to happen to people who are also expressing unpopular political viewpoints.
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Jul 15, 2014 00:11
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SrgMagnum posted:If not I'll be happy to go on my merry way. Please don't use this as an excuse not to post the examples of inflammatory anti-police news coverage.
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Jul 15, 2014 00:41
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KernelSlanders posted:I also dislike the bad-apples theory but for different reasons: it absolves the responsible institutions of culpability. I think the bigger problem is department policies that encourage police to operate right on the edge of legal conduct at essentially all times. These department policies and training procedures tend to be established by un-elected police bureaucrats with little political accountability. It is they, and not the public as we would expect in a democracy, that determine how the public interact with the police and even which laws get enforced against whom. Here we're back to the issue of while it's technically legal to haul anyone off to jail for jaywalking, it always seems to happen to people who are also expressing unpopular political viewpoints. The craziest thing to me is that there's nothing really wrong with the "bad apples" approach in practice, assuming you're properly interpreting the phrase. Bad apples that are not aggressively removed from the barrel rot and release chemicals that increase the ripening and decay of all apples in its vicinity. From that, you'd think the "bad apples" approach would be to aggressively pursue police misconduct at any point when there's even the slightest whiff of impropriety. The "bad apples" standard would be synonymous with loads of accountability, creating an environment where people with attitudes that propagate "the thin blue line" would be told to gently caress off and find a new career. Instead, "a few bad apples spoil the whole bunch" became "there are some bad apples, gently caress it, what ya gonna do", making it an excuse for why most police units do loving nothing to clean up the problems in their own house.
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Jul 15, 2014 01:20
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So what terrible deeds have the police done to you guys specifically, or are all of your personal anecdote anti cop stories just "I saw" or "I heard"?
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Jul 15, 2014 01:39
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Cole posted:I hope someone reads this thread when it's all said and done and it changes the world. Cole posted:What are these other jobs and other skills Cole posted:I'd be more likely to gun down an innocent person if my pension and/or salary got hosed up so it's pretty relevant. Cole posted:Are you a cop how do you know this Cole posted:It's what what happens when GBS and D&D finish circle jerking themselves. Like when you bust a nut you gotta take a break unless you're a stud like me. We are just in the middle of jerkoff sessions. Cole posted:More people want to kill cops than your average civilian. Their paranoia seems a little justified. Cole posted:You should probably get out of your house and away from your computer more you loving weirdo. Cole posted:The recent outbreak of dogs getting shot up while in their kennel would suggest that yes the dog is dangerous anyway. Cole posted:So what terrible deeds have the police done to you guys specifically, or are all of your personal anecdote anti cop stories just "I saw" or "I heard"? To answer your question despite it (and all your contributions) being worthless, I've seen a lot of kids get their lives hosed over by a cop who decided to provoke them, or arrest a kid one day for something less serious than what they let another kid off for the next.
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Jul 15, 2014 01:44
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SedanChair posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7dFMbubxr4 You answered me with an "I saw."
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Jul 15, 2014 01:47
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Because if and when someone says that they were personally victimized, you're not going to turn around and say "oh well clearly you have a personal stake in this, maybe you're just not looking at things rationally"?
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Jul 15, 2014 01:53
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Cole posted:So what terrible deeds have the police done to you guys specifically, or are all of your personal anecdote anti cop stories just "I saw" or "I heard"? Have fun! So why again are high school grads turning wrenches on aircraft held to a higher standard of accountability than cops with guns? I asked this earlier and it was completely ignored. Ravenfood posted:Because if and when someone says that they were personally victimized, you're not going to turn around and say "oh well clearly you have a personal stake in this, maybe you're just not looking at things rationally"? With a side order of "you shouldn't be so emotional over this". EDIT: Here's a fun one from my home town! In March 1992, police in Everett, Washington storm the home of Robin Pratt on a no-knock warrant. They are looking for her husband, who would later be released when the allegations in the warrant turned out to be false. Though police had a key to the apartment, they instead choose to throw a 50-pound battering ram through the apartment's sliding-glass door. Glass shards land inches away from the couple's six-year-old daughter and five-year-old niece. One officer encounters Robin Pratt on the way to her bedroom. Hearing other SWAT team members yell "Get down!" Pratt falls to her knees. She then raises her head briefly to say, "Please don't hurt my children." At that point, Deputy Anthony Aston fires his weapon, putting a bullet in her neck, killing her. Officers next entered the bedroom, where Dep. Aston then put the tip of his MP-5 assault submachine gun against Larry Pratt's head. When Pratt asked if he could move, another officer said that if he did, he'd have his head blown off. Though a subsequent investigation by a civilian inquest jury found the shooting "unjustified," the officer who shot and killed Pratt was never charged. Sources: Jolayne Houtz, "Suit filed against city, county in SWAT death -- Officers also named in Everett shooting," Seattle Times, October 16, 1992. Rick Anderson, "License to Kill," Seattle Weekly, November 3, 1999. Why was the officer never charged with murder? Why wasn't a key used in the apartment? Why couldn't the cops look through a glass sliding door rather than using a 50lb battering ram? Why did people have to die here? Solkanar512 fucked around with this message at 01:59 on Jul 15, 2014 |
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Jul 15, 2014 01:55
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Cole posted:You answered me with an "I saw." Hi bitch, let's say I had a personal anecdote of police abuse that happened to me. What would your response be?
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Jul 15, 2014 01:59
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SedanChair posted:Hi bitch, let's say I had a personal anecdote of police abuse that happened to me. What would your response be? Give me one and let's find out.
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Jul 15, 2014 02:29
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A cop cracked me over the head and arrested me during a non-violent protest, after I had moved away from the main body when they started moving in. Hows that?
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Jul 15, 2014 02:32
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Cole posted:Give me one and let's find out. No, gently caress you. This has you pegged: Ravenfood posted:Because if and when someone says that they were personally victimized, you're not going to turn around and say "oh well clearly you have a personal stake in this, maybe you're just not looking at things rationally"? There's no way to win with you except to identify you as scum and tell you to gently caress off.
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Jul 15, 2014 02:33
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Cole posted:So what terrible deeds have the police done to you guys specifically, or are all of your personal anecdote anti cop stories just "I saw" or "I heard"? I had six police officers raid my home without warrant or consent because they "heard from a neighbor" that there was a "party with drugs." There was me, my two roommates, and one guest present. It was a three bedroom in a neighborhood with a median household income ~$80k. I was manhandled, pushed physically onto the couch, and guarded by two of them while the other four began tossing the house. After searching for about 40 minutes they got even more aggressive once they didn't find any weed (hint: there wasn't any). One of them placed his mouth about an inch from my face and started screaming at me and spitting (which I think is a felony if I did it to him) when I said I didn't want to answer any of their questions. I don't know that much about police procedure, but if I were to guess, this tactic is designed to get me to shield myself with my hand, hopefully somehow make contact with him, and congratulations you've just won an assaulting an officer charge. Yes, I talked to a lawyer, but nobody was injured and somehow nobody at the police had any paperwork on the incident, so no I won't be getting any money out of it, although that's not really the point.
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Jul 15, 2014 02:34
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SedanChair posted:No, gently caress you. Lol ok guy. Keep fighting the good fight.
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Jul 15, 2014 02:34
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Cole posted:Lol ok guy. Keep fighting the good fight. You had other people respond with personal stories. Why don't you come back and be dismissive with us instead?
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Jul 15, 2014 02:52
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Have you guys considered that maybe Freedom Isn't Free?
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Jul 15, 2014 03:00
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I have a cop story that *thankfully* ended well. Me and my father were driving from Birmingham to Atlanta, in an old crappy RV. We'd bought it, and he'd fixed it up himself. I hated that piece of poo poo, and yet I wish I had it back now. Anyway, we're driving along, with our two dogs. Arlo and Tammy. Tammy was an old toy poodle. Going blind, and cantankerous to a fault. She had been owned by my grandmother for a while, and she'd fed her nothing but canned food, so 90% of her teeth were history. Arlo was the sweetest thing. A half lab, half corgi, he was shorter than a lab, and taller than a corgi. Dad was driving the best he could. We'd been going for a while, having just gotten over the Georgia line not too long ago. It was a big vehicle, and while he'd driven it before, he hadn't ever driven on these roads before. Suddenly sirens flared up, and we were pulled over. We waited for what was up, finally the officer knocked. My dad walked out and started to talk. I was a young kid, barely 13 years old. I was curious what was wrong, and the way the officer was talking made it sound like he thought he was speaking to scum and that he was totally going to have to draw at any point. I come out, worried for my Dad. He looks to me, and says with the meanest tone I ever heard "Get back in there." And reaches for his gun. I did as instructed, fearful now for Dad, our dogs, and me. Dad. . . I don't know what he did, but finally Dad invited him to come in and check out the RV. He took a glance around, and seemed to be annoyed that we were letting him in so easily. Finally he gives us the reason he pulled us over. Dad went over the white line on the road, the one close to the shoulder, once. This was apparently enough to justify stopping a father, his son, and two dogs, on a moving trip from Birmingham to Atlanta. He finally left, and we left as well. Shaken but hopeful that we wouldn't have any other issues. Now then, I will admit fully to this being speculation, but based on how the cop acted, why he pulled us over, and the circumstances behind everything. . . Turns out there had been a huge drug bust recently, in Alabama. They'd found a mobile meth lab or something in an old RV, because apparently the drug pushers thought rich flashy cars would attract attention, whereas an old beaten up RV wouldn't. So this cop had gotten it in his head that he had just found another one, and he was gonna be famous and get sooo many bonuses for nailing a loving meth lab. Which is why he treated Dad like he was scum, and acted like he was about to loving shoot a 13 year old kid who came out, worried about his father.
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Jul 15, 2014 03:04
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So, this seems to belong here. Now, please, before everyone goes into full on "burn everything to the ground" mode, I would respectfully ask you to take into consideration that the county and state did take action on this. Of course, that's kind of marred by the Chief Deputy State Attorney going all "that's not illegal", which while it may be entirely factual really isn't the clever thing to say in this instance. ...Also, I'm mildly amused that there's a place in Florida called Fruitland Park. Edit: Seems that this has happened before, when another cop on the same force got fired for the same reason. As reported here. TLM3101 fucked around with this message at 08:37 on Jul 15, 2014 |
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Jul 15, 2014 08:26
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Jul 15, 2014 09:01
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I mean in a just world the KKK would be listed as a terrorist organization and it absolutely would be illegal to be a member, but hey, racism.
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Jul 15, 2014 09:03
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TLM3101 posted:So, this seems to belong here. edit: I guess "they" = some hypothetical body that investigates the police and yet are not police themselves... Samurai Sanders fucked around with this message at 09:11 on Jul 15, 2014 |
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Jul 15, 2014 09:04
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Cole posted:So what terrible deeds have the police done to you guys specifically, or are all of your personal anecdote anti cop stories just "I saw" or "I heard"? Are people allowed to oppose nuclear war if they haven't personally been nuked? How about rape? 'you only heard about your sister getting raped eh? What a lame anecdote.' Are you allowed to support the CDC's efforts to prevent epidemics if you never even got SARS? If a restaurant has a zero health rating from the health board are you allowed avoid it you haven't gotten food poisoning yet? Etc etc. I'm not sure even how you think asking people if they oppose bad things that haven't personally happened to them is some kind of masterstroke? Everyone in a society opposes and works to prevent bad things that haven't happened to them. Cops enforce laws regarding crimes they aren't victims of that were legislated by non victims of that crime. At best most legislators are only going to hear an 'anecdote' from a victim of that crime giving testimony when they're drafting the bill. ReV VAdAUL fucked around with this message at 09:13 on Jul 15, 2014 |
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Jul 15, 2014 09:10
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Samurai Sanders posted:I hope they scrutinize the HELL out of every arrest he has ever made. It's what the public deserves and what is necessary to maintain any level of respect for police work. How hard is it to get his entire history of arrests and at least check his demos against the department and county? Federal investigation please. e:  can you find the police officer in this picture??
woke wedding drone fucked around with this message at 09:35 on Jul 15, 2014 |
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Jul 15, 2014 09:31
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Welcome from Florida. From this link: quote:The investigation by FDLE began in January after it received complaints about Milstead’s behavior. With an interesting quote from a police report, which can be found here: quote:Jackson told Milstead to get out of his face. Lt. Milstead closed the vehicle door. Lt. Milstead opened the door a second time and said, “Are you going to still run your loving mouth, friend of the family?” Jackson told Lt. Milstead to get out of his face or he was going to spit on him. Jackson stated the last time Lt. Milstead opened the door, he (Jackson) made a spitting sound as if he was going to spit but didn’t. Lt. Milstead slammed the vehicle door and walked towards the other FBPD officer on scene and asked for his pepper spray. Jackson stated that Lt. Milstead returned to the patrol car, opened the door, and said, “I got something for you now, friend of the family.” Lt. Milstead deployed the pepper spray onto Jackson’s face while he was handcuffed behind his back and sitting in the patrol vehicle. One law enforcement witness on scene stated that Lt. Milstead opened the patrol car door to deploy the pepper spray in Jackson’s face on at least two occasions. Robert Wayne Milstead, 55, gave up his police certification and was sentenced to six months of community service and three years of felony probation From this link: quote:A former Flagler Beach Police officer was arrested on an attempted murder charge after a Flagler County firefighter was shot at least twice during an alleged road rage incident on U.S. 1 Friday evening. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxWxukPf1eY The defense agreed to a sentence of four years and three months in prison followed by nine months of community control and five years of parole. Keeping the beach theme, here's another from this link right here: quote:“She was pretty much under the influence of alcohol I believe,” Fleming said. “He came home, he found her like that.” Bobby MacDonald told police that he’d gotten off work at 6 p.m. and returned home to find his wife on the ground with the gunshot wound to the side of the head. He then placed his wife in a car and drove her to the intersection of County Road 302 and County Road 305. Fleming said the weapon used may have been a Derringer, but that was not confirmed. So, she shot herself and instead of calling 911 immediately for an ambulance he put his wife in the car and drove her to an intersection so she could be airlifted? Oh yeah, let's not forget this: quote:Two of Bobby MacDonald’s ex-wives also contacted The News-Journal shortly after the shooting. Both Nancy Schneck and Roena MacDonald, who live out of the area, said he had a history of physical violence and both also complained that he failed to pay child support. And this: quote:“Upon arrival, complainant advised that she and her husband, Robert J. MacDonald, had a very heated argument which resulted in Robert picking up a 7” butcher knife and threatening to slit Nancy’s throat,” the report states. quote:“I trusted him,” said Stephanie McKinney, his landlord when he and Kathy lived at 6381 Cherry Lane in Daytona North, the west Flagler County house where Kathy MacDonald was shot. MacDonald has “no restrictions that would require him to remain in the county” and that “he is under no obligation to report his whereabouts.” A recent city newsletter, which misspelled MacDonald’s name, said, “Police Officer Robert McDonald has decided to retire. We thank Bobby for his long tenure of service with our City and wish him the best going forward.” Campbell said Thursday that Bobby MacDonald was allowed to remain on paid leave the entire time because he was not charged with a crime. He earned $38,702 annually, which means he was paid nearly $58,000 over the past 18 months. He said the veteran officer worked for the city for 13 years “and several months” and is fully vested in his retirement plan. Note: he moved and didn't leave a forwarding address. And, from this link here: quote:A husband-and-wife team of Flagler County police officers was busted Wednesday on a variety of charges in separate criminal cases that include allegations of corruption, drug possession and theft. quote:John Murray is accused of illegally directing business either on his own or under his orders to Saxon’s Wrecker Service, which is owned by City Commissioner Jimmy Flynt. Murray’s actions led to Flynt’s “personal and financial benefit,” the affidavit said. Ex-Bunnell cop John Murray’s trial on six felony charges ended this morning in a plea agreement as Murray pleaded no contest to a charge of possessing more than 20 grams of marijuana. Five other charges were dropped. Flagler County Circuit Judge Raul Zambrano sentenced Murray to 18 months’ probation and 50 community service hours and $1,000 in court costs. Murray will not serve jail time, but he can no longer be a police officer. His wife got $500 in court costs and 12 months of probation. And finally, from here: Waaaaaaait for it, ooh here it is: quote:One of the undisputed facts is that Lisa Tanner had been arrested in March 2005 on bogus charges by Nathaniel Juratovac, then a Flagler Beach police officer whose romantic interests for her she’d rebuffed. Oh that guy. And what happened? quote:“Grim and shocking,” is how a grand jury summed up its reaction to Lisa Tanner’s treatment the night she was held in restraints, twice, at the Flagler County Jail five years ago, when she was 28. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgDtyJ-RO8o quote:“What wasn’t justified those three hours in the early morning of March 24, besides the arrest that started it all by a Flagler Beach police officer (whose conduct on the job has led to at least two lawsuits), was the violence and humiliation inflicted on her by her jailers. It should therefore surprise no one that a grand jury found her treatment at deputies’ hands ‘grim and shocking,’ and indicted two Flagler County sheriff’s deputies on various charges adding up to unnecessary force.”
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Jul 15, 2014 13:08
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ReV VAdAUL posted:Are people allowed to oppose nuclear war if they haven't personally been nuked? How about rape? 'you only heard about your sister getting raped eh? What a lame anecdote.' Are you allowed to support the CDC's efforts to prevent epidemics if you never even got SARS? If a restaurant has a zero health rating from the health board are you allowed avoid it you haven't gotten food poisoning yet? Etc etc. Are you really putting your complaints about the cops on the same level as nuclear weapons? Lol ok bub. Bring up the holocaust next.
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Jul 15, 2014 14:54
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I can't understand analogies. -Cole, 2014
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Jul 15, 2014 14:57
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Cole posted:Are you really putting your complaints about the cops on the same level as nuclear weapons? I'm waiting for an answer, Cole.
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Jul 15, 2014 15:34
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Cole posted:Are you really putting your complaints about the cops on the same level as nuclear weapons? True, it's a totally unfair comparison: As an American in 2014, I'm much more likely to be punched by a cop because he was feeling antsy that day than I am to be victimized by a nuclear weapon or a concentration camp. A Good Post.
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Jul 15, 2014 16:01
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Hey Cole, what is your comment on our run-ins with the cops that you solicited? Unless of course that was a poo poo and run.
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Jul 15, 2014 16:31
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DiscoMouse posted:Unless of course that was a poo poo and run. I think that's been pretty thoroughly proven by now.
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Jul 15, 2014 16:33
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Cole posted:Are you really putting your complaints about the cops on the same level as nuclear weapons? The question is whether people are allowed, in your opinion, to hold opinions about bad things that have not personally happened to them and if so under what criteria? I offered a range of examples and it is truly a shame you got tripped up by the first line. To give you the benefit of the doubt I mentioned nuclear war because while it is a thing nearly everyone is ardently opposed to in spite of the fact very few people have experienced it. The other examples then go on to list more common unpleasant scenarios that people oppose even if they haven't personally experienced them.
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Jul 15, 2014 16:34
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At least put some effort into your trolling god drat man.
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Jul 15, 2014 16:36
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Cole posted:You answered me with an "I saw." I think you have a personal stake in this, and you are not looking at things rationally.
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Jul 15, 2014 21:32
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Cole posted:So what terrible deeds have the police done to you guys specifically, or are all of your personal anecdote anti cop stories just "I saw" or "I heard"? I've been beaten by the police numerous times, and I've seen on duty cops physically, verbally and even sexually torture close friends of mine. Good enough?
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Jul 15, 2014 21:41
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Tias posted:I've been beaten by the police numerous times, and I've seen on duty cops physically, verbally and even sexually torture close friends of mine. Good enough? Jesus Tias, what sort of madness inspired them to do that?
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Jul 16, 2014 13:13
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Cole posted:You answered me with an "I saw." Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. Also, empathy is a thing. So can you shut up and/or kill yourself already? We shouldn't have to justify why we care about what happens to other people. It's the kind of request a sociopath would require.
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Jul 16, 2014 17:03
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I love how he totally ignored all the actual personal stories.
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Jul 16, 2014 17:23
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I wish you guys would quit responding to people who are obviously and blatantly trolling.
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Jul 16, 2014 18:59
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Network Pesci posted:I wish you guys would quit responding to people who are obviously and blatantly trolling. Well I'm trying to dig up the DoJ study where 61% of officers self-report seeing other officers participating in illegal activity in order to put an end to the 'bad apples' discussion, but I'm having trouble finding a proper citation.
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Jul 16, 2014 19:59
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