Bel_Canto posted:

Well, given some of the conversations about hymnody and liturgical music in this thread, we've got judgment of our own, haha.

itsjustdrew posted:

You know, I'm really starting to like A/T. It's more informative than I would have thought, most forums on the interwebs have constant faecal throwing at people who don't agree. But it's nice to see change and education at work, for the most part.

PantlessBadger posted:

Not to mention a few other areas (theology, preference for theologians, politics, other secular beliefs)...

Speaking of hymnody, though, does anyone know a good place to buy traditional hymns either set to chanting or organ? Preferably CoE or traditional British hymns from another Anglican national church, though really at this point I'm not being too picky as I can't seem to find anything.

Smoking Crow posted:

Congratulations?

Cythereal posted:

I didn't know there was an actual study about it, but I am very familiar with the facts it found. I remain an oddball - a scientifically literate, socially and theologically liberal Protestant in his mid-twenties who actually enjoys getting up early on Sundays to go to church.

Nothing to do but keep looking. It's just frustrating.

fade5 posted:

Oh, and here's a fun kicker: 22% of American Christians believe in reincarnation, despite reincarnation being incompatible with pretty much every major flavor of Christianity. Pick 5 Christians in America, one of them will believe in reincarnation. Hey, here's one right now, it's me.

fade5 posted:

Oh, and here's a fun kicker: 22% of American Christians believe in reincarnation, despite reincarnation being incompatible with pretty much every major flavor of Christianity. Pick five Christians in America, one of them will believe in reincarnation.

PrinceRandom posted:

Reincarnation? We are going all the way back to Judaism aren't we...

Also the distiction between Theism and Religion makes me sort of like the way the Eurobaramoter poll asks questions. Not about religion at all it's "Do you believe in God." "Do you believe in a spirit or life force." or "Do you not belive in gods, spirits or life forces."

Fun fact. Estonia has about 14% Theist but like 75% "spirit or life force" belief percentage.

I think just the word "God" rubs people the wrong way now-a-days.

Smoking Crow posted:

Congratulations?

Keromaru5 posted:

I don't know about buying, but this page by an Episcopalian liturgist I like has links to chant scores, chant tutorials, and chant settings for liturgies, including a Benedictine Psalterium in Latin (the link was dead, but I retrieved it on archive.org).

fade5 posted:

Oh, and here's a fun kicker: 22% of American Christians believe in reincarnation, despite reincarnation being incompatible with pretty much every major flavor of Christianity. Pick five Christians in America, one of them will believe in reincarnation. Hey, here's one right now, it's me.

Worthleast posted:

You can't say that and not give us some details.

I don't understand the appeal of it myself.

Arcsech posted:

I wonder if this is actually what it sounds like or if most of those just don't know the difference between the words "reincarnation" and "resurrection".

Jedi Knight Luigi posted:

Which confuses me. Why be Christian when all the religions of the world are just "different rivers to the same ocean, man"? I'm Christian because I think it's the most correct way, and that particular view of entry to the afterlife is what sets it apart from every other religion out there.

fade5 posted:

It's funny, my answer to this is "If you don't want to, there's no real reason." This was actually a really liberating realization to me, to realize that I didn't have to adhere to any particular belief system. Hell, right now I'm mulling over the idea of reincarnation and I've realized that it makes quite a bit of sense to me. I'm fairly sure that reincarnation is incompatible with pretty much every branch of Christianity, so that basically leaves my belief system without a name.

Numerical Anxiety posted:

Αποκαταστασις νυν! Origenism for the masses!

fade5 posted:

If I'm really, really wrong and my beliefs end up condemning me to hell, then I will willingly take my place there. "You believed the wrong thing, so you will be punished forever" is not the mark of a loving God, that's the mark of a petty, vengeful tyrant. I refuse to worship a petty, vengeful tyrant, those are a dime a dozen on earth if you want to live your life constantly afraid of something more powerful than you.

fade5 posted:

Basically reincarnation appeals to me because of the cyclical nature of it. The Earth itself follows a daily and yearly cycle, the seasons cycle, water cycles, weather cycles, and life itself cycles: plants sprout from soil, grow, live, and eventually die, and are then broken down by microbes to become soil from which other things can grow. Similarly, we're born, grow up, and have kids, who then grow up and have kids of their own and so on. It's possible even the universe itself is cyclical. Given all this, the idea that your soul is basically a "one run and done" sorta flies in the face of all that. If you want specifics, I don't profess to know how it works or what the rules are, I just know reincarnation or just the idea that souls cycle "seems right" to me.

Basically, my belief system is rather "squishy"; I operate on a system of whether something sounds or feels right to me. I first learned about Universalism from the previous thread, and it just hit me with this feeling of "yes, exactly, this sounds right". Hell, this is the Liturgical Christianity thread, you could call it a revelation, actually. A similar thing happened when I heard about reincarnation, it was a moment of "yes, this just feels right to me".

So, how do I reconcile all this together? I don't know, I fully admit I could be wrong. That's the other part my belief system, I don't proclaim to know if I'm right or not, it's just what I feel is right. I also believe in a kind and loving God, so even if I'm wrong, I know he'll understand and not hold it against me.

...

That enough details for you Worthleast? I've been kicking this around in head for a while, and I thought I might as well post my thoughts. If that was confusing to read, don't worry, it was a little confusing to me typing it out; I've never actually written all this down before.

Jedi Knight Luigi posted:

Willingly? I don't know that you'll have much choice in the matter either way when the time comes, friend.

Cythereal posted:

Keromaru5 posted:

I've always struggled with the idea of God's judgement (see my earlier post about the Last Judgement icon), which is why I'm always grateful I learned about Isaac of Syria when I did. I wish he were easier to find in translation (although I did eventually find a hard copy of an older translation on Lulu, and an ebook seems to have sprung up that reprints it with modernized English).

You have no idea how many times I've been tempted to dump quotes from Isaac's homilies whenever Jack Chick comes up in the Terrible Webcomics Megathread.

HEY GAL posted:

Torture isn't something to smirk and laugh about, dude.

St. Jerome posted:

To begin, then: Vercellae is a Ligurian town, situated not far from the base of the Alps, once important, but now sparsely peopled and fallen into decay. When the consular2 was holding his visitation there, a poor woman and her paramour were brought before him-the charge of adultery had been fastened upon them by the husband-and were both consigned to the penal horrors of a prison. Shortly after an attempt was made to elicit the truth by torture, and when the blood-stained hook smote the young man's livid flesh and tore furrows in his side, the unhappy wretch sought to avoid prolonged pain by a speedy death. Falsely accusing his own passions, he involved another in the charge; and it appeared that he was of all men the most miserable, and that his execution was just inasmuch as he had left to an innocent woman no means of self-defence. But the woman, stronger in virtue if weaker in sex, though her frame was stretched upon the rack, and though her hands, stained with the filth of the prison, were tied behind her, looked up to heaven with her eyes, which alone the torturer had been unable to bind, and while the tears rolled down her face, said: "Thou art witness, Lord Jesus, to whom nothing is hid, who triest the reins and the heart.3 Thou art witness that it is not to save my life that I deny this charge. I refuse to lie because to lie is sin. And as for you, unhappy man, if you are bent on hastening your death, why must you destroy not one innocent person, but two? I also, myself, desire to die. I desire to put off this hated body, but not as an adulteress. I offer my neck; I welcome the shining sword without fear; yet I will take my innocence with me. He does not die who is slain while purposing so to live."

4. The consular, who had been feasting his eyes upon the bloody spectacle, now, like a wild beast, which after once tasting blood always thirsts for it, ordered the torture to be doubled, and cruelly gnashing his teeth, threatened the executioner with like punishment if he failed to extort from the weaker sex a confession which a man's strength had not been able to keep back.

5. Send help, Lord Jesus. For this one creature of Thine every species of torture is devised. She is bound by the hair to a stake, her whole body is fixed more firmly than ever on the rack; fire is brought and applied to her feet; her sides quiver beneath the executioner's probe; even her breasts do not escape. Still the woman remains unshaken; and, triumphing in spirit over the pain of the body, enjoys the happiness of a good conscience, round which the tortures rage in vain.4 The cruel judge rises, overcome with passion. She still prays to God. Her limbs are wrenched from their sockets she only turns her eyes to heaven. Another confesses what is thought their common guilt. She, for the confessor's sake, denies the confession, and, in peril of her own life, clears one who is in peril of his.

6. Meantime she has but one thing to say "Beat me, burn me, tear me, if you will; I have not done it. If you will not believe my words, a day will come when this charge shall be carefully sifted. I have One who will judge me." Wearied out at last, the torturer sighed in response to her groans; nor could he find a spot on which to inflict a fresh wound. His cruelty overcome, he shuddered to see the body he had torn. Immediately the consular cried, in a fit of passion, "Why does it surprise you, bystanders, that a woman prefers torture to death? It takes two people, most assuredly, to commit adultery; and I think it more credible that a guilty woman should deny a sin than that an innocent young man should confess one."

7. Like sentence, accordingly, was passed on both, and the condemned pair were dragged to execution. The entire people poured out to see the sight; indeed, so closely were the gates thronged by the out-rushing crowd, that you might have fancied the city itself to be migrating. At the very first stroke of the sword the head of the hapless youth was cut off, and the headless trunk rolled over in its blood. Then came the woman's turn. She knelt down upon the ground, and the shining sword was lifted over her quivering neck. But though the headsman summoned all his strength into his bared arm, the moment it touched her flesh the fatal blade stopped short, and, lightly glancing over the skin, merely grazed it sufficiently to draw blood. The striker saw, with terror, his hand unnerved, and, amazed at his defeated skill and at his drooping sword, he whirled it aloft for another stroke. Again the blade fell forceless on the woman, sinking harmlessly on her neck, as though the steel feared to touch her. The enraged and panting officer, who had thrown open his cloak at the neck to give his full strength to the blow, shook to the ground the brooch which clasped the edges of his mantle, and not noticing this, began to poise his sword for a fresh stroke. "See," cried the woman, "a jewel has fallen from your shoulder. Pick up what you have earned by hard toil, that you may not lose it."

8. What, I ask, is the secret of such confidence as this? Death draws near, but it has no terrors for her. When smitten she exults, and the executioner turns pale. Her eyes see the brooch, they fail to see the sword. And, as if intrepidity in the presence of death were not enough, she confers a favor upon her cruel foe. And now the mysterious Power of the Trinity rendered even a third blow vain. The terrified soldier, no longer trusting the blade, proceeded to apply the point to her throat, in the idea that though it might not cut, the pressure of his hand might plunge it into her flesh. Marvel unheard of through all the ages! The sword bent back to the hilt, and in its defeat looked to its master, as if confessing its inability to slay.

9. Let me call to my aid the example of the three children,5 who, amid the cool, encircling fire, sang hymns,6 instead of weeping, and around whose turbans and holy hair the flames played harmlessly. Let me recall, too, the story of the blessed Daniel,7 in whose presence, though he was their natural prey, the lions crouched, with fawning tails and frightened mouths. Let Susannah also rise in the nobility of her faith before the thoughts of all; who, after she had been condemned by an unjust sentence, was saved through a youth inspired by the Holy Ghost. In both cases the Lord's mercy was alike shewn; for while Susannah was set free by the judge, so as not to die by the sword, this woman, though condemned by the judge, was acquitted by the sword.

MoraleHazard posted:

Good post and good link. I've had similar struggles, both with accepting God's mercy and accepting God's judgement. I got confirmed as an adult and picked St. Alphonsus de Ligouri as my confirmation saint. I knew nothing about the man, but saw that he was the patron of final perseverance. Considering myself a lousy Christian, I thought it a good choice. I've read some of his works, including an abridged version of his "Preparation for Death". It's written in a very old-school language with some elements of Catholic "fire and brimstone". But around the fire and brimstone there is this tenant of how often and readily God forgives and reader is exhorted to work hard in doing good and not throwing away God's mercy by repeatedly falling into the same sinful habits.

Spacewolf posted:

It was Martin Luther's primary issue, wasn't it?

Pellisworth posted:

Dude was also a vocal anti-Semite and passionate man for Christ and just couldn't understand why anyone would reject him

Pellisworth posted:

Dude was also a vocal anti-Semite

Jedi Knight Luigi posted:

Mo Tzu posted:

Did you just try to spin anti semitism. It's okay to like a dude with unfortunate views, but you shouldn't spin those views into a positive.

Lutha Mahtin posted:

Luigi belongs to a denomination that has literal position papers saying "Luther's anti-semitism is abhorrent and we don't agree with it"

Keromaru5 posted:

I actually just found out about Liguori last night. Turns out there's a newsletter called "Scrupulous Anonymous" inspired by him. Scrupulosity, I'm now realizing, may be my primary spiritual struggle. It knocked me out of the Catholic Church into the Episcopal, and it pretty much yanked me away from Orthodoxy lo those months ago when I got worried about my possible future as a fantasy writer. Even though I'm well aware of Orthodoxy's stance on legalism.

Jedi Knight Luigi posted:

See you in church on Sunday! (Lutha and I both live in Minneapolis and most certainly do not attend the same church)

Numerical Anxiety posted:

To be fair though, how many churchmen weren't in those days?

Mo Tzu posted:

Your favorite (Christian figure) is problematic.

HEY GAL posted:

St. Barbara didn't write anything down and therefore cannot be criticized for her opinions.

She is, however, also the patron saint of the Russian missile defense program.

Worthleast posted:

And is pictured holding her severed breasts on a plate.

HEY GAL posted:

No, she's the one with the exploding tower. Are you thinking of Agatha?