|
Lord Frisk posted:The weird unnecessary sex stuff turned me off to the system. I don't want to listen to my friends RP that stuff, and I don't want to RP NPCs doing anything like that with them. I hate to say it, but it soured me to the system. I don't see how it's unnecessary? Both AW and Monsterhearts deal with themes of sexuality and emotional conflict, and the actual act of sex is an important part of those narratives (and what those games were inspired by, for example Joss Whedon stuff.) You do know you don't have to play through it, right? You can just be like "let's find some place more private" and then they walk offstage, sex moves happen. That's all the game asks of you; it's perfectly happy doing it the same way as in Star Trek the original series from 1960.
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2014 21:33
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 21:04 |
|
|
Evil Mastermind posted:e: I feel like I just have to accept that like 90% of the people I want to give my money to are horrible in some way, shape, or form otherwise I'm pretty much done with the hobby altogether. I'm pretty sure that applies to life in general, though, not just elfgames. edit: Speaking of terrible people, you-know-who (the compulsive Googler) found my article on D&D5 and commented on it, arguing that he wasn't a stalker. Keep in mind, I never mentioned his name in this article and he found it anyway, and he's arguing against being a stalker. Irony isn't his strong suit, I fear. Spincut fucked around with this message at 21:36 on Jul 15, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2014 21:33
|
|
|
Lord Frisk posted:Gamma World is still $25-30, and is still a great "everything you need in one box" type of starter set. The core box doesn't have a long adventure or a ton of lore, but I really like the two expansions, not necessarily for "as written" adventures, but because of the fluff. if you think the sex moves in ApocWorld/MonsterHearts were telling you "ROLEPLAY YOUR SEXHAVING" then the problem is with you, not the system
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2014 21:33
|
|
|
Arivia posted:it's perfectly happy doing it the same way as in Star Trek the original series from 1960. But with a lot less vaseline
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2014 21:33
|
|
|
Evil Sagan posted:But with a lot less vaseline Between the battlebabe and the werewolf/sasquatch I feel like there's plenty of vaseline to go around in the Realm of the Sex Moves.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2014 21:35
|
|
|
Someone run AW so I can make Pavel Petel as a battlebabe.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2014 21:35
|
|
|
Spincut posted:I'm pretty sure that applies to life in general, though, not just elfgames. Oh, I know, it's just that I'm closer to the designers in elfgameland than pretty much everything else I'm a fan of.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2014 21:36
|
|
|
Alouicious posted:if you think the sex moves in ApocWorld/MonsterHearts were telling you "ROLEPLAY YOUR SEXHAVING" then the problem is with you, not the system I totally thought it was literal. I also thought my hand was forced. My woes upon reading that wretched tome! For now I must have fake sex with my friends. I just didn't think those rules were necessary. I see how they fit the fiction of Monsterhearts, but didn't see the need in AW.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2014 21:36
|
|
|
Arivia posted:I don't see how it's unnecessary? Both AW and Monsterhearts deal with themes of sexuality and emotional conflict, and the actual act of sex is an important part of those narratives (and what those games were inspired by, for example Joss Whedon stuff.) AW doesn't really deal with themes of sexuality, though, it deals with themes of scarcity and community and being "Mad Max: the TV series by Joss Wedon." The sex moves would have been way better as "spending downtime with someone" moves instead of explicitly sex moves. MH, on the other hand, absolutely justifies them, no questions asked.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2014 21:39
|
|
|
Lemon Curdistan posted:Yeah, that's the reason I'm interested in it. I'm at work right now so I can't give a long answer but Its simple while still offering a bit more choice than just "roll pilot vs pilot to see who wins" (though that is the core mechanic boiled down). The plane customization is great and the action is fast paced and pulpy. One mechanic I especially like is that the players, being Aces, might be shot down, but are automatically assumed to bail out just fine, that is unless specific circumstances dictate otherwise (such as bailing out above Azure's Murk) or the player specifically opts to "put their life on the line", which makes them fight better but are suddenly very mortal. I can talk more about it after work in 6 or so hours, if you have questions. That way I can glance through it and refresh my memory. Galaga Galaxian fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Jul 15, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2014 21:39
|
|
|
Lord Frisk posted:I totally thought it was literal. I also thought my hand was forced. My woes upon reading that wretched tome! For now I must have fake sex with my friends. The sex moves in AW are there to replicate the sex scene in Terminator - finding solace with each other (or conversely, horror) against the bleak apocalypse. It shows up a TON in any apocalyptic fiction, whether it's a Stephen King novel or the Road or whatever.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2014 21:39
|
|
|
SageNytell posted:I know that half my current group would immediately veto anything with 'sex moves' the second they become aware of it, no matter if it's a small part of the game or not. Definitely not an area my players want in our games. I also have a largely female group, so they've had some bad experiences in that regard in the past and I want them to feel comfortable. Apocalypse world doesn't need sex moves. If you deleted sex moves from the game, you aren't going to miss anything from the game. I've played in a few AW games here on the forums and while the sex moves are part of the game, I haven't seen them come up in the games I'm in. However, AW is known for its sex moves, so just removing them might not help the situation.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2014 21:41
|
|
|
Lemon Curdistan posted:AW doesn't really deal with themes of sexuality, though, it deals with themes of scarcity and community and being "Mad Max: the TV series by Joss Wedon." The sex moves would have been way better as "spending downtime with someone" moves instead of explicitly sex moves. I think it has sexuality and sex as a discourse in the game - the question of what is sexy comes up with the Battlebabe and the...Brainer's? sex move. It's not an explicit focus like it is with Monsterhearts, but it is there.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2014 21:42
|
|
|
also the skinner is basically a post-apocalyptic courtesan a lot of the time
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2014 22:02
|
|
|
General Ironicus posted:The Star Wars: Edge of the Empire beginner set? Everyone knows enough about Star Wars to be comfortable playing pretend. It's also incorrect to say someone has no way to get an explanation or demonstration if that person has internet access. On a similar note, Marvel Heroic is good at teaching people to play characters who different to themselves by saying "Look just pretend to be Spiderman"
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2014 22:16
|
|
|
Arivia posted:The sex moves in AW are there to replicate the sex scene in Terminator - finding solace with each other (or conversely, horror) against the bleak apocalypse. It shows up a TON in any apocalyptic fiction, whether it's a Stephen King novel or the Road or whatever. Huh, I'd never thought of it that way. I've never played AW even though I own it, and I have to say that I always thought that the sex moves were a much worse fit for that genre than they were for Monsterhearts. That said, in light of this post they now make a whole lot more sense. And I wouldn't call Monsterhearts sex moves "unnecessary" by any margin. I mean, I've played Monsterhearts a couple of times, and whenever PC on PC sexing happened it was basically "fade to black AND THEN THEY hosed let's find out what happened now." I mean, the fact that the sex moves exist doesn't automatically mean that people are going to turn the game into ERP straight away (although I'm 100% certain that some people out there are using both Apocalypse World and Monsterhearts for explicit ERP), but the fact that those moves exist does imply that "Sex is a thing that may be addressed in these games." But, you know, when you're playing a game that emulates fiction like Twilight and Buffy then awkward teenage sex and its consequences are already on the table. That poo poo just comes with the source material being emulated. I'm just glad the sex moves are on the scale of "after the sexing happens this stuff happens" rather than the sort of stuff you get in the Book of Carnal Knowledge.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2014 22:17
|
|
|
GURPS is objectively The Best Game but they don't sell a good beginner set for it, you just gotta jump in the shark tank and start deriving attributes and spending fractions of skill points.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2014 22:29
|
|
|
I feel like the sex moves take up a not ignorable part of the trifolds. There are basically four "functional" columns, and the sex move sits there taking up a fifth of one of those, as much as equipment or advancement depending on the playbook. I'm not necessarily saying it's a bad thing, and actually I think it could be very refreshing or reassuring for some people, an indication that its okay to bring up sex within the game. But I could also understand someone being hesitant and wondering if the game is meant to be creepy or something. Like I'm not sure if I, as a someone new to RPGs, would buy getting told "oh those don't matter, ignore them" if I brought them up at the start of a game. It would be almost neat if there was a progression of playbooks, like the first one doesn't even have the advances, and once you mark enough XP you get handed the broader playbook with maybe more in-depth moves specific to your playbook, some other random stuff, and then also the sex moves as sort of an aside. But that would probably come with its own issues, so I dunno.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2014 22:31
|
|
|
Swagger Dagger posted:GURPS is objectively The Best Game but they don't sell a good beginner set for it, you just gotta jump in the shark tank and start deriving attributes and spending fractions of skill points. You haven't had to use 1/2 points for 8 years
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2014 22:34
|
|
|
zachol posted:It would be almost neat if there was a progression of playbooks, like the first one doesn't even have the advances, and once you mark enough XP you get handed the broader playbook with maybe more in-depth moves specific to your playbook, some other random stuff, and then also the sex moves as sort of an aside. That seems like a lot of work just because some players might magnify the importance of sex in the game even when the person teaching them the game explains that it's not that prominent and can be removed entirely.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2014 22:34
|
|
|
I believe I have the longest history of running AW pbp on the forum, and at no point has a sex move ever come up (though a savvyhead did roll to seduce the juggernaut's armor) (I tell this story a lot) (I will continue to tell it)
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2014 22:36
|
|
|
I do agree the PbtA options are some of the easiest places to start, though the writing of AW itself would take some getting used to. That said, maybe Call of Cthulhu? The system isn't cutting edge by any means, but it is pretty easy to wrap your head around the base resolution system and there are a lot of good resources for it. There's a couple versions of the quick-start adventure available for free, too. I mean, it's pretty easy to say "we're going to explore this creepy haunted house" as an introduction, even if no one is really invested in the Cthulhu mythos. I'd certainly go with that over something like Pathfinder, which has several very high barriers to entry (the setting, the resolution, the system itself). World of Darkness is also not bad, since it's mostly "regular people deal with weird things" and the mechanics are much simpler than D20 systems. I believe you could still get the books via print-on-demand or used on Amazon without spending an insane amount. Personally I think using the real world as the starting setting simplifies things quite a bit, but it depends what they're interested in. Unless the group really, absolutely wants to do fantasy, I don't think either D&D or any of its off-shoots are strong places to start. They're pretty overwhelming and if you go online for help you run the risk of smacking into edition wars and other problems. I've also introduced people to RPGing with Paranoia with some success, but those aren't easy to find in print at the moment. Edit: One Roll Engine would work fine, too. Sionak fucked around with this message at 23:36 on Jul 15, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2014 22:36
|
|
|
Evil Sagan posted:That seems like a lot of work just because some players might magnify the importance of sex in the game even when the person teaching them the game explains that it's not that prominent and can be removed entirely. Well the idea would be that it would be sort of "hidden" among a bunch of other things, with the implication that it isn't quite as important.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2014 22:37
|
|
|
Captain Foo posted:I believe I have the longest history of running AW pbp on the forum, and at no point has a sex move ever come up (though a savvyhead did roll to seduce the juggernaut's armor) (I tell this story a lot) (I will continue to tell it) On the other hand our Monsterhearts PBP has been up for less than 2 weeks and sex moves have happened 3 separate times.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2014 22:42
|
|
|
So True Detective has me wanting to run something similar. Like a functional Delta Green. I'm leaning toward Unknown Armies, but, and bear with me, am I crazy for considering a major reskin of Torchbearer to get the conditions for tracking a slow descent into madness?
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2014 22:46
|
|
|
zachol posted:Well the idea would be that it would be sort of "hidden" among a bunch of other things, with the implication that it isn't quite as important. I get the idea. I'm saying it's silly to alter the formatting or advancement even slightly just because some people lose their heads as soon as the word "sex" shows up.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2014 22:52
|
|
|
Xiahou Dun posted:So True Detective has me wanting to run something similar. Like a functional Delta Green. What does Torchbearer do better than UA's Madness Meters?
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2014 22:52
|
|
|
Ratpick posted:Huh, I'd never thought of it that way. I've never played AW even though I own it, and I have to say that I always thought that the sex moves were a much worse fit for that genre than they were for Monsterhearts. That said, in light of this post they now make a whole lot more sense. To say nothing of having Mel Gibson and Tina Turner in the same movie.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2014 23:08
|
|
|
Evil Sagan posted:I get the idea. I'm saying it's silly to alter the formatting or advancement even slightly just because some people lose their heads as soon as the word "sex" shows up. Given this hobby's track record of how sex is dealt with I kind of understand that people's initial reaction to sex showing up in RPGs is a big NOPE. I mean, on one hand you have stuff like the Book of Carnal Knowledge with extremely mechanical and scarily in-depth rules for the act of sex, then you've got stuff like F.A.T.A.L. (and the less said about that the better), and you've also got games without any rules dedicated to sex but where the discussion of sex and sexuality comes off as completely wrong (i.e. Cthulhutech). So, with the usual suspects in how RPG-writing deals with sex being either "Roll for erectile dysfunction" or "Here's some extremely lurid and creepy flavortext for my RPG where sex is actually not an important part of the narrative" it's understandable that people would be squeamish about the inclusion of sex in RPGs. But the thing is, Apocalypse World and Monsterhearts both have sex moves, yet they fall into none of the above pitfalls: first of all, while the moves are mechanical constructs, they are not mechanics governing the act of sex, but the narrative and emotional consequences of sex. Secondly, neither books has walls and walls of text about how sexy their setting is and how everyone is really liberated sexually and sex sex sex. Neither game treats sex as a novelty, something worth writing paragraphs upon paragraphs about (unless you count Monsterhearts' "Queer Mechanics" section, which isn't really about sex but sexuality and gender identity), but something that can just be mentioned in passing and does not need to be elaborated upon. All that said, I won't judge anyone who doesn't want to play these games because of the sexual themes. I mean, RPGs are a social hobby, and for some people playing games where player characters constantly engage in seduction and sexytimes simply does not fit into their social contract, and that's completely okay. Even I won't play Monsterhearts with my standard D&D group, because I know it'd just be awkward. Fake edit: Having typed all that, I'm starting to feel like some bizarre tradgames version of that guy in the Senran Kagura thread constantly defending his anime titty ninja game as having a really deep plot and the fanservice being completely inconsequential to his liking the game.  mllaneza posted:To say nothing of having Mel Gibson and Tina Turner in the same movie. Oh god please don't remind me.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2014 23:20
|
|
|
Ratpick posted:Fake edit: Having typed all that, I'm starting to feel like some bizarre tradgames version of that guy in the Senran Kagura thread constantly defending his anime titty ninja game as having a really deep plot and the fanservice being completely inconsequential to his liking the game. The funny thing is that you just mentioned that AW and MH are good at avoiding that kind of pitfall
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2014 23:23
|
|
|
Ratpick posted:
No, you're using logic and not calling women whores while shrugging and going "MY EXPERIENCE IS" so you're lightyears away from Dark_Tizimice.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2014 23:24
|
|
|
Tollymain posted:The funny thing is that you just mentioned that AW and MH are good at avoiding that kind of pitfall Yeah, I think the point I was trying to make was more along the lines of "Look at this fucker on the internet defending these weird sex storygames." Like, I know they're not actually weird sex storygames, but in spite of everything I just wrote about how AW and MH don't discuss sex in deep and lurid detail I think a part of the general "No sex in elfgames" thought has stuck, to the extent where I feel self-conscious just defending the sexual content in those games. Mr. Maltose posted:No, you're using logic and not calling women whores while shrugging and going "MY EXPERIENCE IS" so you're lightyears away from Dark_Tizimice. Thanks to that thread I can't not read his name as Dark_Titsanime.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2014 23:32
|
|
|
Ratpick posted:Thanks to that thread I can't not read his name as Dark_Titsanime. More like Dork_Titsanime, if you wanna go the full extra mile.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2014 23:35
|
|
|
Fuego Fish posted:More like Dork_Titsanime, if you wanna go the full extra mile. He's not a dork, he's a fucker. Big difference.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2014 23:40
|
|
|
People are entitled to avoid any topic they want in an RPG. I understand why people would cast a wary eye towards the concept of a "Sex Move." I don't think altering the way playbook advancement is presented or how it works to coax people who are wary of that topic into playing and accepting the game makes sense. If the rules of the game don't sufficiently obfuscate the concept, or a friend's assurances don't dispell your concerns, then that's the point where it's time to just not play the game. Hiding stuff deeper into the bowels of the game... hell, inventing bowels wholesale simply so there is a place to hide it... is incredible overkill. e: besides, anything short of outright removing Sex Moves from the game would fail to keep people from discussing it anyway. Any game with something called "Sex Moves" is gonna be "the game with Sex Moves." 100 degrees Calcium fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Jul 15, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2014 23:41
|
|
|
Evil Sagan posted:Hiding stuff deeper into the bowels of the game... hell, inventing bowels wholesale simply so there is a place to hide it... is incredible overkill. And counterproductive to boot. If I were the kind of person who'd be turned off by that material, lord knows I wouldn't want it sprung on me three sessions in
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2014 23:43
|
|
|
Evil Sagan posted:People are entitled to avoid any topic they want in an RPG. I understand why people would cast a wary eye towards the concept of a "Sex Move." I don't think altering the way playbook advancement is presented or how it works to coax people who are wary of that topic into playing and accepting the game makes sense. If the rules of the game don't sufficiently obfuscate the concept, or a friend's assurances don't dispell your concerns, then that's the point where it's time to just not play the game. Hiding stuff deeper into the bowels of the game... hell, inventing bowels wholesale simply so there is a place to hide it... is incredible overkill. The best solution is to actually have people read the moves and realize it's not Cosmo's Top Ten Moves For Grappling School, but about how intimacy could change the relationship between two characters. There's a reason a Hardholder gives someone a gift, why a Faceless can show up to someone's side even if it makes no sense, why a Driver has to get out of Dodge, why a Battlebabe gets nothing and gives nothing. They reinforce the thematics of the playbook even if they never come up in play.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2014 23:44
|
|
|
Rasamune posted:And counterproductive to boot. If I were the kind of person who'd be turned off by that material, lord knows I wouldn't want it sprung on me three sessions in "Welcome to level 3." The DM turns on some bass-heavy dance music and removes his shirt to apply oil to his flabby chest. "We fight hard. We play hard."
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2014 23:45
|
|
|
Evil Sagan posted:"Welcome to level 3." The DM turns on some bass-heavy dance music and removes his shirt to apply oil to his flabby chest. "We fight hard. We play hard." Who knew that the E in BECMI actually stood for Erotic?
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2014 23:47
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 21:04 |
|
|
Arivia posted:On the other hand our Monsterhearts PBP has been up for less than 2 weeks and sex moves have happened 3 separate times. I just want to take a moment to clear up any misconceptions about our Monsterhearts campaign. It is a wholesome game about church-going teenagers and there are a lot of Bible verses. Together we learn lessons about life, love, faith, and loyalty.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2014 23:49
|
|