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ImpAtom posted:I think you're remembering the victories a lot more than the defeats. The Earth and Fire books were absolutely full of losses. The first book was a little more mixed with stuff like the Earth Prison breakout and a general lighter tone. They weren't "full of" losses, they just featured some. Even in the final chapter you had the Avatar crew's final rapprochement with Zuko and the other prison break that finally stripped Azula of the last of her friends and stuff like that. And, again, because the protagonists were always acting from a position of weakness, losses and setbacks were generally a matter of them simply not having the strength or resources to accomplish something rather than having some objective in their grasp and then being blindsided and frustrated by a clever stratagem of the opponent's. I mean, that did happen, especially during the eclipse unless I'm not remembering events correctly, but that kind of thing was memorable for being so unusual. Meanwhile, for two whole books Korra was the powerful force that on paper should long ago have crushed all her weaker foes but in practice kept getting outplayed and surprised by plucky, determined underdogs. She didn't even get intermittent, filler episode wins because she was up against the big bad guys of each book pretty much from turn one, such that any definitive victory on her part would necessarily have precluded the entire rest of the season happening - just as Zuko immediately capturing or killing Aang would have.
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Jul 16, 2014 03:20
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Squidster posted:Sorry, I should have clarified I was talking about comicbook Batman or animated Batman, as Nolan's batman is basically his own thing. Well, the latest big Batman writer and one of the more optimistic ones ended his run with "Batman is a giant manbaby who lives in his parent's basement and is completely incapable of growing, enacting meaningful change or doing anything but fighting a war against enemies he'll never defeat." Which is why i think it's just an awkward example more than anything, because I do get what you're saying. I, however, don't really agree. A big part of TLA, at least in the second and third season, was that Aang was dealing with the consequences of his failures, including his initial decision to run away. He wasn't able to enact meaningful long-term change or have any significant victories because he lacked the ability to actually take the action required of him, and so the story was a long series of defeats. He had victories but they were usually small-scale and not anything that actually set back the Fire Nation plans. In many cases they accidentally aided them, such as giving them the blimps. Aang wasn't ready to be the Avatar and so he couldn't really have the victories he needed. He survived or in episodes like The Drill did stop plans but rarely did he actually built towards a greater victory. Ferrinus posted:Meanwhile, for two whole books Korra was the powerful force that on paper should long ago have crushed all her weaker foes but in practice kept getting outplayed and surprised by plucky, determined underdogs. She didn't even get intermittent, filler episode wins because she was up against the big bad guys of each book pretty much from turn one, such that any definitive victory on her part would necessarily have precluded the entire rest of the season happening - just as Zuko immediately capturing or killing Aang would have. But she wasn't. The Equalists were a significant and powerful army backed by one of the richest men in the city and her other enemy was one of the city council chairmen, both of whom had an incredibly powerful bending ability. Korra had nobody on her side but Tenzin, Mako and Bolin and eventually Lin and Asami. She had incredibly powerful bending power but she was outfunded and outnumbered. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 03:25 on Jul 16, 2014 |
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Jul 16, 2014 03:21
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Ferrinus posted:Meanwhile, for two whole books Korra was the powerful force that on paper should long ago have crushed all her weaker foes but in practice kept getting outplayed and surprised by plucky, determined underdogs. She didn't even get intermittent, filler episode wins because she was up against the big bad guys of each book pretty much from turn one, such that any definitive victory on her part would necessarily have precluded the entire rest of the season happening - just as Zuko immediately capturing or killing Aang would have. Two whole books of LoK is barely more than one book of TLA, though. And I'd argue that Korra was never the powerful force in her first two books. Book 1 consistently treated her as a child who still didn't know what was best for herself, let alone anyone else. People outside her immediate circle placed more responsibility on her, but she was never given any actual power or authority to do jack poo poo. Hell, even working with Tarlock he was the one who had the authority to arrest people and round up the Equalists. She was just a weapon he used to that end. Her Airbending failures could be seen as a reflection of that, she spent the entire season trying to find what she was missing so she could be a powerful force. Book 2 then continued to build on that, with her being forced to face even more poo poo she was functionally powerless to defeat. She's only a "powerful force" in the sense that she's the Avatar and a good fighter, but that's about it.
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Jul 16, 2014 03:29
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ImpAtom posted:But she wasn't. The Equalists were a significant and powerful army backed by one of the richest men in the city and her other enemy was one of the city council chairmen, both of whom had an incredibly powerful bending ability. Korra had nobody on her side but Tenzin, Mako and Bolin and eventually Lin. She had incredibly powerful bending power but she was outfunded and outnumbered. She was the freaking Avatar, mate. The whole world except for the evil anti-Bending insurrection was on her side. If either of her enemies had ever been straightforwardly revealed or captured or whatever that'd have been the end of it because there were powerful and legitimate authorities Korra could, on paper, appeal to. That's why she had to keep getting outwitted and blindsided, never straightforwardly defeating anyone but, what was it, I think like a small party of equalist martial artists in episode 1 or 2? Which brings me back to the point: until recently, in Book 3, Korra pretty much... doesn't win fights. It's weird, and you don't notice it at first because on paper she's a much more aggressive, martial Avatar than the last one we watched a cartoon about. But, on reflection, she keeps getting chumped - not just winning at a cost or overcoming a temporary obstacle but at the cost of some greater strategic objective, or whatever, but straight-out failing to definitively subdue or rebuff even her immediate, physical opponents. RyuujinBluez posted:Two whole books of LoK is barely more than one book of TLA, though. And I'd argue that Korra was never the powerful force in her first two books. Book 1 consistently treated her as a child who still didn't know what was best for herself, let alone anyone else. People outside her immediate circle placed more responsibility on her, but she was never given any actual power or authority to do jack poo poo. Hell, even working with Tarlock he was the one who had the authority to arrest people and round up the Equalists. She was just a weapon he used to that end. Her Airbending failures could be seen as a reflection of that, she spent the entire season trying to find what she was missing so she could be a powerful force. Book 2 then continued to build on that, with her being forced to face even more poo poo she was functionally powerless to defeat. She's the Avatar and a powerful fighter in a world that's largely united behind and supportive of the Avatar. In Book 2, she's actually a fully-realized Avatar, able to go SSJ at will. But... she just kept losing. Aang, much weaker and more timid for pretty much the entirety of his series (how far into TLA would he have to be in order to be able to go toe to toe with Korra? Maybe as far as Book 3), actually kicked a lot of butt, for all that he often failed to achieve greater strategic objectives, won at steep cost, or only won in a way that delayed his problems rather than eliminated them. Why? Like I said, my theory that it's because A) no time for filler episodes and B) TLA was about fugitives while LOK was about celebrities.
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Jul 16, 2014 03:33
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Ferrinus posted:She was the freaking Avatar, mate. The whole world except for the evil anti-Bending insurrection was on her side. If either of her enemies had ever been straightforwardly revealed or captured or whatever that'd have been the end of it because there were powerful and legitimate authorities Korra could, on paper, appeal to. That's why she had to keep getting outwitted and blindsided, never straightforwardly defeating anyone but, what was it, I think like a small party of equalist martial artists in episode 1 or 2?. How is this any different from Aang? Aang has all the authority of the Avatar and even got to pull it out sometimes but his enemies didn't care. Being The Avatar doesn't matter much when legitimate authorities are not capable of acting or are overwhelmed by the enemy. Ferrinus posted:Which brings me back to the point: until recently, in Book 3, Korra pretty much... doesn't win fights. It's weird, and you don't notice it at first because on paper she's a much more aggressive, martial Avatar than the last one we watched a cartoon about. But, on reflection, she keeps getting chumped - not just winning at a cost or overcoming a temporary obstacle but at the cost of some greater strategic objective, or whatever, but straight-out failing to definitively subdue or rebuff even her immediate, physical opponents. Korra wins a whole bunch of fights. She loses fights too but she wins multiple fights in the first episode. She has a relatively poor record against superpowered foes but so does Aang. Hell, it was Sokka who took out Sparky Sparky Boom Man. Aang has relatively few fights against high-end opponents that he wins on his own until... what, Ozai? ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 03:39 on Jul 16, 2014 |
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Jul 16, 2014 03:36
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ImpAtom posted:How is this any different from Aang? Aang has all the authority of the Avatar and even got to pull it out sometimes but his enemies didn't care. Being The Avatar doesn't matter much when legitimate authorities are not capable of acting or are overwhelmed by the enemy. The station of Avatar had authority... with a variety of scrappy rebel factions that were trying and failing to resist the awesome might of the Fire Nation war machine. Korra, meanwhile, was pretty much a government sanctioned superhero trying to put down a secret terrorist group. The Equalists pulled a bunch of warplanes out of their asses in the season 1 finale... because the entire might of the republic army was being called down on their heads, because Korra was an agent of, not an enemy of, the status quo. You actually have to wonder what Amon's endgame was because, what, he and his dudes and his one pet CEO are going to take on, like, the armies of the world? Good luck, friend. quote:Korra wins a whole bunch of fights. She loses fights too but she wins multiple fights in the first episode. That's where it ends, yes. They build her up as a cool badass fighter and then, well...
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Jul 16, 2014 03:41
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Ferrinus posted:The station of Avatar had authority... with a variety of scrappy rebel factions that were trying and failing to resist the awesome might of the Fire Nation war machine. Korra, meanwhile, was pretty much a government sanctioned superhero trying to put down a secret terrorist group. The Equalists pulled a bunch of warplanes out of their asses in the season 1 finale... because the entire might of the republic army was being called down on their heads, because Korra was an agent of, not an enemy of, the status quo. You actually have to wonder what Amon's endgame was because, what, he and his dudes and his one pet CEO are going to take on, like, the armies of the world? Good luck, friend. You keep ignoring Tarlock who was also the status quo and also her enemy and at least part of the season is her trying to stop him as well. That's what leads to the whole Bloodbending confrontation. One of Korra's reoccuring rivals/frustrations in Season 2 and 3 has been the President of Republic City! She tried to get help with the Water Tribe Civil War and was flat-out turned down by him! This idea that because she's the Avatar people will be at her beck and call isn't backed up in the series. Ferrinus posted:That's where it ends, yes. They build her up as a cool badass fighter and then, well... She wins fights throughout the series. You've even pointed out other times she's won in your own arguments. She loses them too but, again, Aang does the same thing. Korra gets overwhelmed and captured by the Equalists. Aang has the same thing happen with the Fire Nation and is only rescued when Zuko pulls the Blue Spirit thing. He's literally only saved by enemy infighting. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 03:46 on Jul 16, 2014 |
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Jul 16, 2014 03:43
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ImpAtom posted:Except Bugs Bunny doesn't win by running away and surviving. He wins by humiliating and degrading his foe and (relatively often) tricks them into injuring or killing themselves or entirely giving up the chase against him. Book 1 starred three kids with strictly amateurish levels of control over their only means of defense (bending) that were being pursued by a powerful if rogue element of a genocidal superpower. Escaping was always a victory. Not to say Book 1 was especially awesome: the constant repetition of the Roadrunner roadshow format did tip Zuko over into Dr. Claw territory pretty fast, and the only thing that saved most episodes from being out and out boring was the fantastic worldbuilding and character exploration for both heroes and villains. But one of the things I definitely did like about Book 1 was the slow but steady accumulation of underdog victories. Out of curiosity I went back and looked up all the times the Fire Nation and the Gaang clash in Book 1. Here's a running tally. FYI I went off of the episode descriptions on Wikipedia, if someone really wants to make an even more goonaliciousily detailed version or disagree with my scoring, please feel free. Episode 2: Gaang defeats Zuko, escapes. Gaang 1, Fire Nation 0. Episode 4: Zuko burns Kyoshi Island, but is drawn away. Draw. Gaang 2, Fire Nation 1. Episode 6: Heroes infiltrate villains’ prison and incite rioting. Gaang 3, FN 1. Episodes 7 & 8: Zhao attacks them twice, is defeated both times; heroes acquire valuable intelligence about villains’ hidden weakness. Gaang 4, FN 1. Episode 9: Heroes captured by villains and one-off villain group, escape with valuables. Gaang 5, FN 1. Episode 10: Fire Nation garrison incidentally destroyed during character development episode. Episode 13: Heroes become ill and are captured, are rescued by antihero villain and all are cured. Victory? Gaang 6, FN 1. Episode 15: Aang captured by mercenary, escapes with help of others. Gaang 7, FN 1. Episode 16: Zhao fights Aang; Aang escapes and Zhao burns his own ship instead. Gaang 8, FN 1. Episode 17: FN attacks Northern Air Temple, heroes successfully defend the temple. FN acquires new technologies from Temple. Draw. Gaang 9, FN 2. Episodes 19 & 20: FN attacks North Pole, Zhao kills Moon Spirit. Heroes replace Moon Spirit, kill Zhao, destroy entire FN fleet. Gaang 11, FN 3. Ain't Aang a stinker. Meanwhile, here's Book 1 of Korra. Episode 1: Korra is free! Defeats Triad gang members, and is promptly arrested. Korra 1, Triad 0? Episode 3: Abducted by Equalists! But escape. Which is what Amon wants??? Korra 0, Amon 0? Episode 4: Captured by Equalists! But released by Amon. ????? Korra 0, Amon 0? Episode 6: Amon wrecks stadium, de-bends pro-benders, gets away. Korra 0, Amon 1. Episode 7: Korra captured by Amon, escapes. Korra 1, Amon 1. Episode 8: Korra defeated by Tarrlock. Korra 0, Tarrlok 1. Episode 9: Tarrlok is de-bended, Korra escapes. Korra 2, Amon 2. Episode 10: Korra rescues Tenzin, Lin defeats Equalists, Lin is de-bended. Other miscellaneous battles. Korra 4, Amon 3. Episode 11: Bolin and Asami sabotage Equalist airbase, heroes’ fleet disabled by Equalist mines. Draw. Korra 4, Amon 4. Episode 12: Heroes captured, then rescued. Equalist bombers destroyed by Iroh. Amon unsuccessfully confronted as bender. Tenzin rescued. Korra de-bended. Amon airbended into sea, revealed as bender, commits suicide with Tarrlock. Korra and Lin re-bended. Korra TOTAL WIN, Amon Dead, Tarrlok Dead. (OK, Korra 9, Amon 6.) Korra's Book 1 is totally off-set by the lack of clarity of the villains' backstories and motives for the vast majority of the series, their lack of coherency — there are few actual confrontations with Amon, and loads of other forces like the Triad and Tarrlock running around — and Korra being on the other side of the asymmetrical warfears means that every move against Amon only plays further into his hand, mwahahahaha.  Half the time I didn't even know when to call something a win or not — sure, Korra escapes a lot, but Amon seems to want her to escape half the time to prove how awesome he is and instill fear in her. Then there's a sudden final burst at the very end where Amon is whupped so hard he literally kills himself. Aang's Book 1 might have been overly consistent in its escalation, but at least that was coherent, and fully built up to its season-ender in a way that made sense. The Gaang was also so frequently underpowered in comparison to the Evil Empire coming after them that their consistent wins always felt earned. Even in episodes where Korra wins, meanwhile, Amon is still plotting/gathering large crowds and demonstrating his power, and/or easily escaping Korra. An Avatar (and hero) is just more fun when they're on the run and standing up as one person against large entities, rather than vice versa and playing law and order. Other interesting stats: 8 non-hero/villain conflict character development episodes in Aang's Book 1, 2 in Korra's (and both of them were exclusively pro-bending episodes, which, while arguably character developing, also got boring fast). Aang's Book 1 character development episodes also very frequently included large portions of time devoted to development for the Fire Nation villains as well as the heroes, whereas Tarrlock's/Amon's development remained solely plot-bound and was put almost entirely in the last few episodes.  EDIT: Just to be clear about the match-ups, I ran them as separate match-ups for each villain. Korra confronting Tarrlok is a separate battle with its own score, because we had no clue until the very end that he's connected to Amon at all (and they don't seem to work at the same goals at all, from my recollection). Combed Thunderclap fucked around with this message at 04:01 on Jul 16, 2014 |
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Jul 16, 2014 03:45
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ImpAtom posted:You keep ignoring Tarlock who was also the status quo and also her enemy. When Tarlock defeated Korra he did it in the middle of the night, in secret, and then stole away with her body in his car without letting anyone else know what he'd done. This was because the entire world was on Korra's side and if he was discovered by the actual, non-corrupt authorities he'd just get arrested or shot or something. Come on, man. quote:She wins fights throughout the series. She loses them too but, again, Aang does the same thing. Korra gets overwhelmed and captured by the Equalists. Aang has the same thing happen with the Fire Nation and is only rescued when Zuko pulls the Blue Spirit thing. He's literally only saved by enemy infighting. Does she, though? Does she? Now, my friend who pointed this out to me watched Book 1 more recently than I did, so I'm going off a combination of his testimony and my memory, but I'm pretty sure she actually doesn't win fights throughout the series - that, past episode 1, Korra consistently finds that her enemies either beat her legitimately, start losing but get away from her, or start losing but then pull out a secret weapon and beat her.
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Jul 16, 2014 03:47
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Ferrinus posted:When Tarlock defeated Korra he did it in the middle of the night, in secret, and then stole away with her body in his car without letting anyone else know what he'd done. This was because the entire world was on Korra's side and if he was discovered by the actual, non-corrupt authorities he'd just get arrested or shot or something. Come on, man. Yeah, the Republic City president is so willing to do anything Korra asks. We've totally seen that. Now that Tarlock is gone she just has them at her beck and call. Ferrinus posted:Does she, though? Does she? Now, my friend who pointed this out to me watched Book 1 more recently than I did, so I'm going off a combination of his testimony and my memory, but I'm pretty sure she actually doesn't win fights throughout the series - that, past episode 1, Korra consistently finds that her enemies either beat her legitimately, start losing but get away from her, or start losing but then pull out a secret weapon and beat her. Yes, she does. And yes, enemies get away reasonably frequently but it isn't like Zhao or Zuko were enemy-of-the-weeks.
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Jul 16, 2014 03:50
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Ferrinus posted:The station of Avatar had authority... with a variety of scrappy rebel factions that were trying and failing to resist the awesome might of the Fire Nation war machine. Korra, meanwhile, was pretty much a government sanctioned superhero trying to put down a secret terrorist group. The Equalists pulled a bunch of warplanes out of their asses in the season 1 finale... because the entire might of the republic army was being called down on their heads, because Korra was an agent of, not an enemy of, the status quo. You actually have to wonder what Amon's endgame was because, what, he and his dudes and his one pet CEO are going to take on, like, the armies of the world? Good luck, friend. Din't the Republic Navy come because Korra specifically called General Iroh? Zuko's grandson? The guy who has ever reason to jump when the Avatar calls? If she'd called anyone else, there's no real indication that anyone would have cared. She's constantly jerked around, ignored, and then yelled at by the status quo authorities who couldn't give two runny shits that she's the Avatar beyond what using her can mean for them. She is a badass fighter, and I'd put money on Aang not being able to even go toe-to-toe with her until nearly adulthood. Then again, Korra doesn't seem all that fond of using more than one type of bending at a time, which I'm kind of disappointed in.
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Jul 16, 2014 03:50
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ImpAtom posted:Yeah, the Republic City president is so willing to do anything Korra asks. We've totally seen that. Now that Tarlock is gone she just has them at her beck and call. Are you getting flustered or something? That's not what I said. Korra isn't literally in charge of everything - but she's the Avatar. She's a celebrity/national hero/influential religious figure. She's on the side of the law and the legitimate ruling authority. If she's threatened, she can turn to the police and army and similar for protection. What higher authority could Aang turn to for recourse against the Fire Nation? quote:Yes, she does. And yes, enemies get away reasonably frequently but it isn't like Zhao or Zuko were enemy-of-the-weeks. They get away unreasonably frequently, in fact, because they get away all the time. Korra's Book 1 and Book 2 enemies bear the same relationship to her as Aang did to Zhao or Zuko. Korra's always there, powerful and relentless, but just... can't... seem... to catch that wabbit! RyuujinBlueZ posted:Din't the Republic Navy come because Korra specifically called General Iroh? Zuko's grandson? The guy who has ever reason to jump when the Avatar calls? If she'd called anyone else, there's no real indication that anyone would have cared. She's constantly jerked around, ignored, and then yelled at by the status quo authorities who couldn't give two runny shits that she's the Avatar beyond what using her can mean for them. Didn't they come because Republic City was under heavy attack by an increasingly powerful terrorist group, Korra completely aside? Korra definitely had pull with kid Iroh because of her history, but I assume that there'd be warships pulling into Republic City's harbor even if Korra didn't exist.
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Jul 16, 2014 03:56
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Ferrinus posted:Are you getting flustered or something? That's not what I said. No, I'm pointing out that this argument doesn't make sense. On paper Korra is the Avatar and people look like that. In actuality that isn't what happens. Only certain people respect the Avatar and they rarely happen to be the same people in power. Aang could pull out his Avatar status and sometimes it got "welcome to our village, Avatar, it is an honor" but other times it was ignored or taken advantage of or... well, Avatar Day but everyone agrees that episode sucks. Ferrinus posted:They get away unreasonably frequently, in fact, because they get away all the time. Korra's Book 1 and Book 2 enemies bear the same relationship to her as Aang did to Zhao or Zuko. Korra's always there, powerful and relentless, but just... can't... seem... to catch that wabbit! But they don't. You keep making this compaison but Bugs Bunny didn't have an army of local minions at his side. Again, Amon literally has an army of well-funded well-trained soldiers at his beck and call while Korra has her friends and a corrupt politician who isn't really on her side. Like you seem to be really stuck in this "Korra is the status quo" mindset but that is never how it is portrayed. Almost every single serious leader that Korra has encountered is her enemy or at least unfriendly to her. Even Lin although she eventually came around. She's doing better in Season 3 in that she has Zuko, her father and (possibly) Su on her side which is more than she had in Book 1 or 2. Korra is fighting to preserve stability but that isn't the same as being status-quo. Everything she's been involved in has involved a change to the status quo in fact. (A non-bender is President of Republic City and the entire Spirit Portal thing in Book 2.) Edit: hell, is there anyone in power friendly to Korra who isn't related to one of Aang's friends or one of her own family members? ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 04:08 on Jul 16, 2014 |
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Jul 16, 2014 04:01
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ImpAtom posted:No, I'm pointing out that this argument doesn't make sense. On paper Korra is the Avatar and people look like that. In actuality that isn't what happens. Only certain people respect the Avatar and they rarely happen to be the same people in power. Aang could pull out his Avatar status and sometimes it got "welcome to our village, Avatar, it is an honor" but other times it was ignored or taken advantage of or... well, Avatar Day but everyone agrees that episode sucks. Korra wants to defeat Amon. She keeps on trying to capture him, working with the police force, the City Council, and other representatives of organized power, but never quite makes it (and only defeats him by unmasking him as a bender in the final episode). The Fire Lord wants to defeat the Avatar. He keeps on trying to capture him, using the military, members of the royal family, and other representatives of organized power, but never quite makes it (and is then defeated by the Avatar). Lots of people in the Avatar universe go back and forth on cooperating with or working against the Avatar, and it's true that everyone in Korra's time seems to look at her as a nuisance rather than someone to help. But the story's dynamics made me feel like the above paragraph was true, and at the end of the day, how the audience feels is all that matters. You may very well feel differently, of course.
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Jul 16, 2014 04:07
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ImpAtom posted:No, I'm pointing out that this argument doesn't make sense. On paper Korra is the Avatar and people look like that. In actuality that isn't what happens. Only certain people respect the Avatar and they rarely happen to be the same people in power. Aang could pull out his Avatar status and sometimes it got "welcome to our village, Avatar, it is an honor" but other times it was ignored or taken advantage of or... well, Avatar Day but everyone agrees that episode sucks. "Only certain people" is actually "most people". Korra lives in a world that most likely reveres her and by default protects her. If Korra is threatened or kidnapped powerful forces will immediately swing into action to protect or rescue her, because unlike Aang she is allied to, not fugitive from, the forces that maintain the status quo. That some people personally dislike her or have varying opinions on her ability to design and implement policy isn't actually germane to this point. It's hard to put it more simply than I already have: Korra benefits from the status quo and fights to defend the status quo. Aang is threatened by the status quo and fights to overturn the status quo. That's why Korra vs. a recurring enemy is necessarily going to have a different dynamic from Aang vs. a recurring enemy - Korra is putting down insurgents, while Aang is rising up against oppressors. Since the insurgents are smaller, weaker, and more fragile than their opponents, the narrative requires them to be a lot more canny and resilient. quote:But they don't. You keep making this compaison but Bugs Bunny didn't have an army of local minions at his side. Again, Amon literally has an army of well-funded well-trained soldiers at his beck and call while Korra has her friends and a corrupt politician who isn't really on her side. Amon works in secret because he is the underdog in his particular conflict. Most of the world is against him, and he has fewer resources than does the world. That's why he's the one that skulks around in the shadows and relies on contingency and maneuver rather than brute force and numbers. quote:Like you seem to be really stuck in this "Korra is the status quo" mindset but that is never how it is portrayed. Almost every single serious leader that Korra has encountered is her enemy or at least unfriendly to her. Even Lin although she eventually came around. She's doing better in Season 3 in that she has Zuko, her father and (possibly) Su on her side which is more than she had in Book 1 or 2. Yes: pretty much everyone in power. Like, dude, Korra had the ear of the Republic City president all the way til the beginning of Book 3 when he finally got so fed up with her that he kicked her out. How come it took him that long? How many citizens do you think could just, like, go and find the president of the city and give them a piece of their mind? Make policy suggestions? Get rowdy when things aren't going their way? The people in power who are Korra's immediate friends and relatives - and that actually turns out to be a lot of them - go above and beyond this, to the extent that Korra can ask for and receive momentous favors, like of the "hey can I please borrow your army" variety. (That one failed, you'll recall, only because someone else with comparable authority called ahead and vetoed it - Korra only has informal, not official, authority). As Book 2 unfolds, you slowly realize that you're watching adventures of a super-powered princess, a wealthy industrialist, a movie star, and a cop. It's nuts. Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 04:17 on Jul 16, 2014 |
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Jul 16, 2014 04:09
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Ferrinus posted:It's hard to put it more simply than I already have: Korra benefits from the status quo and fights to defend the status quo. Aang is threatened by the status quo and fights to overturn the status quo. That's why Korra vs. a recurring enemy is necessarily going to have a different dynamic from Aang vs. a recurring enemy - Korra is putting down insurgents, while Aang is rising up against oppressors. Since the insurgents are smaller, weaker, and more fragile than their opponents, the narrative requires them to be a lot more canny and resilient. And you haven't actually managed to argue this point. Every single season has involved Korra leading to an overturning of the current status quo. By the end of Season 1, Republic City has completely different leadership. By the end of Season 2, the Spirit Portals have been left open and the worlds is irrevocably changed. Korra's fights change the status quo. Aang fights to return to the status quo. The end result of Aang's battle was a return to normality, or at least as was possible. Hell, part of Tenzin's conflict is that Aang drilled it into his head that he had to restore the Air Nomads to exactly how they were and they may be facing a world where that isn't possible anymore. Ferrinus posted:Like, dude, Korra had the ear of the Republic City president all the way til the beginning of Book 3 when he finally got so fed up with her that he kicked her out. How come it took him that long? How many citizens do you think could just, like, go and find the president of the city and give them a piece of their mind? Make policy suggestions? Get rowdy when things aren't going their way? No she didn't. He was having conflict with her from the very beginning and didn't recognize her requests or authority. It wasn't until Season 3 that he literally banished her from the city. He has been a conflict for her since the moment he was introduced. Like the first things he does in Season 2 are to turn down Korra's request for help with the Water Tribes (despite Varrick's fake bombing attempt to drum up support) and to talk to Mako to find out if Korra was planning anything behind his back and prevented Korra from taking the fleet. I'm not even saying he was wrong to do this (he wasn't) but he sure wasn't helping Korra out. He gave her lip service because she was the Avatar but he didn't work with her at all. Ferrinus posted:As Book 2 unfolds, you slowly realize that you're watching adventures of a super-powered princess, a wealthy industrialist, a movie star, and a cop. It's nuts. Avatar featured a super-powered chosen one monk, the two children of the leader of the Southern Water Tribe (and thus a prince and princess by your logic), a wealthy noble on the run from her family and a prince. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 04:26 on Jul 16, 2014 |
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Jul 16, 2014 04:19
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It's worth pointing out that the wealthy noble on the run has diddly squat to her name save her inordinate skill in martial arts, while the wealthy industrialist can literally pull planes, hotrod cars and massive dirigibles out of nowhere.
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Jul 16, 2014 04:28
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DrSunshine posted:It's worth pointing out that the wealthy noble on the run has diddly squat to her name save her inordinate skill in martial arts, while the wealthy industrialist can literally pull planes, hotrod cars and massive dirigibles out of nowhere. In Season 2 her entire business was failing and being co-oped by another businessman. The materials she had access to in the ending were all taken from the other businessman after he was revealed to be a villain.
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Jul 16, 2014 04:29
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ImpAtom posted:And you haven't actually managed to argue this point. Every single season has involved Korra leading to an overturning of the current status quo. By the end of Season 1, Republic City has completely different leadership. By the end of Season 2, the Spirit Portals have been left open and the worlds is irrevocably changed. Well, no. Republic City was Republic City - you know, with elections - before Korra got there. Opening the spirit portals wasn't Korra's idea, and in fact for the entire season she was fighting to stop the spirit portals from opening - only by being beaten or outmaneuvered was she forced to open the portals. Finally, at the end... she leaves the portals open, choosing not to change something she has the power to change! Even when she ostensibly brings upheaval it's through inaction - it's almost a deliberate joke on the writers' parts. Everything's fine at the beginnings of Book 1 and 2 of LOK, then goes wrong because of the intrusive, disruptive actions of the secret antagonists. In TLA things have long since gone wrong, such that oppression and strife are the status quo that the protagonists have to overturn. quote:No she didn't. He was having conflict with her from the very beginning and didn't recognize her requests or authority. It wasn't until Season 3 that he literally banished her from the city. He has been a conflict for her since the moment he was introduced. Like the first things he does in Season 2 are to turn down Korra's request for help with the Water Tribes (despite Varrick's fake bombing attempt to drum up support) and to talk to Mako to find out if Korra was planning anything behind his back and prevented Korra from taking the fleet. Korra's really annoying. Why did he put up with all her bullshit? Because she's the Avatar. She's inherently important. Powerful factions support and revere her. She's of immense metaphysical significance and holds the potential to wield cataclysmic, army-disintegrating magical power. She has to make an incredible nuisance of herself to lose the ability to just walk up to the local ruler and yammer on at him about whatever's on her mind. So she's finally, finally kicked out of Republic city, right, and where does she go? To the center of the Earth Kingdom. To see the queen. In person. Hmm.
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Jul 16, 2014 04:31
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Ferrinus posted:Well, no. Republic City was Republic City - you know, with elections - before Korra got there. Republic City has a Council beforehand. it was dissolved in the way of Season 1 for being unable to help the people which is why it has a President in Season 2. Ferrinus posted:Everything's fine at the beginnings of Book 1 and 2 of LOK, then goes wrong because of the intrusive, disruptive actions of the secret antagonists. In TLA things have long since gone wrong, such that oppression and strife are the status quo that the protagonists have to overturn. No it isn't. Tarlock isn't a 'secret antagonist' and he is portrayed as much of a problem as Amon. He was controlling the Council even before Amon was a thing. Ferrinus posted:Korra's really annoying. Why did he put up with all her bullshit? He "put up with her bullshit' in that he pretty much ignored her or worked against her and eventually kicked her out of the city. That might be more than a regular person gets but it is not revered and respected. Ferrinus posted:So she's finally, finally kicked out of Republic city, right, and where does she go? To the center of the Earth Kingdom. To see the queen. In person. Hmm. Who promptly ignored her, disrespected her, used her as an errand girl, lied to her and then tried to kill her. Korra's role as the Avatar is a thing that is respected on paper but very rarely respected by anyone in person with any amount of power. This happened to Aang too. The Avatar is an important but (at least in the post-100 year war) not very respected position. A bizarre amount of the actual help they get is nepotism. Hell, the big thing that made Zuko reconsider was discovering he was related to the previous Avatar, and Bumi was Aang's childhood friend. Korra gets more benefit from Avatar Nepotism than Aang does for certain, but that's a side effect of Aang's friends and family all being super-crazy talented and important people. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 04:45 on Jul 16, 2014 |
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Jul 16, 2014 04:40
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ImpAtom posted:Republic City has a Council beforehand. it was dissolved in the way of Season 1 for being unable to help the people which is why it has a President in Season 2. Yeah, but... Korra didn't do that. Korra isn't a political reformer. Book 1: Air wasn't about municipal policy. quote:No it isn't. Tarlock isn't a 'secret antagonist' and he is portrayed as much of a problem as Amon. He was controlling the Council even before Amon was a thing. And yet, when he actually heel turned and began to take direct villainous action (which isn't the same as just, like... disagreeing with Korra, or being mean) he did so in secret, under cover of night, and without tipping any of his fellows on the Council off as to what went down. That's because his actions were illegal, and made him a direct enemy of the ruling authority of the land, which was on Korra's side. quote:He "put up with her bullshit' in that he pretty much ignored her or worked against her and eventually kicked her out of the city. That might be more than a regular person gets but it is not revered and respected. Korra's role as the Avatar is a very important role. That's why she has the ear of presidents and queens. What happened when Aang showed up in Ba Sing Se and wanted to talk to the ruling monarch? Not what happened in Legend of Korra! That's because the troubles Korra suffers are troubles appropriate to a protagonist who's a renowned celebrity, as opposed to troubles appropriate to a protagonist who's a hunted fugitive. It seems like you're having a hard time answering the claim "Avatar Korra is on the side of the status quo" and so sneakily substituting the claim "Avatar Korra leads a charmed life and faces no opposition from elements of the status quo". But, of course, I said the first thing, not the second thing. In his time, the most powerful force in the land considered Aang a rebel and a fugitive. In her time, the most powerful forces in the land consider Korra the noble inheritor of a famous hero at best and an annoying little poo poo at worst, but a free individual deserving of personal sovereignty and the full protection of custom and the law in either case.
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Jul 16, 2014 04:56
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Ferrinus posted:Yeah, but... Korra didn't do that. Korra isn't a political reformer. Book 1: Air wasn't about municipal policy. Korra exposed Tarrlok (looked up his stupid name finally) and revealed his corruption. Ferrinus posted:Korra's role as the Avatar is a very important role. That's why she has the ear of presidents and queens. What happened when Aang showed up in Ba Sing Se and wanted to talk to the ruling monarch? Not what happened in Legend of Korra! That's because the troubles Korra suffers are troubles appropriate to a protagonist who's a renowned celebrity, as opposed to troubles appropriate to a protagonist who's a hunted fugitive. ... She was attacked by the Dai Li after finding out about their secret corruption despite getting a fairly straight-faced response? It doesn't seem very different to me, no. Ferrinus posted:It seems like you're having a hard time answering the claim "Avatar Korra is on the side of the status quo" and so sneakily substituting the claim "Avatar Korra leads a charmed life and faces no opposition from elements of the status quo". But, of course, I said the first thing, not the second thing. In his time, the most powerful force in the land considered Aang a rebel and a fugitive. In her time, the most powerful forces in the land consider Korra the noble inheritor of a famous hero at best and an annoying little poo poo at worst, but a free individual deserving of personal sovereignty and the full protection of custom and the law in either case. No, you're just randomly saying she's fighting for the status quo when that explicitly is not what she is doing. If she was fighting for the status quo then she wouldn't have confronted Tarlock and she would have closed the Spirit Portals. She made the concious decision not to close the portals and you're painting that as inaction instead of a choice when it explicitly was not. A choice not to do something to return things to status quo is still a choice. I'll be honest and say that I don't even disagree with what you're saying, I just don't think you're arguing what the actual show is showing. I think you're arguing this from the perspective of the expectations many people (myself included) had for the direction Korra Book 1 would go and where it didn't end up going, which (if it had) would have been a lot more active social reform and commentary. It wasn't and so in comparison Korra's actions look a lot more Status Quo-y. However the show itself is portraying Korra as someone who makes changes and alters the way the world works and not someone fighting for the status quo. It constantly puts her in conflict with people in power and the ones she trusts are often using her for their own damaging goals. At the end of each season she ends up being the cause of major status quo changes. You can argue the show is doing it poorly but the argument that Korra is the status quo or that it is the story of 'celebrities' (aside from Bolin's plotline) would involve a very different treatment of the characters than they're getting. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 05:09 on Jul 16, 2014 |
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Jul 16, 2014 05:00
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Aang stands on a street corner and shouts "I am the Avatar!" People show up to arrest or kill him. Korra stands on a stage and shouts "I am the Avatar! Listen to me!" People roll their eyes and ignore her. While Korra may not be the fanatic preserving fist of the status quo, she's vastly more accepted than Aang ever was, and vastly more comfortable with the state of the world. When she's unhappy, it's not because society is unjust, but because she's not at the top of the heap. It was never her goal to disrupt the world with Harmonic Convergence - it just sort of happened. She's not trying to overthrow an empire like Aang was. Korra is Agent Smith, Aang is Neo, and Azula is gently caress if I know. \/\/\/\/\/\/ No, stop weaseling and re-focussing. Prove she's not an avatar of the Status Quo and that she has meaningful intentions of changing the world. When confronted with suffering she develops noble motives, but by default she's a selfish character who tries to alternately pull rank or headbutt her way through the political system to get what she wants. That isn't bad storytelling or a bad character. Her negative traits are there to show her growth as a human being! Squidster fucked around with this message at 05:16 on Jul 16, 2014 |
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Jul 16, 2014 05:09
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Squidster posted:Aang stands on a street corner and shouts "I am the Avatar!" People show up to arrest or kill him. know. Or they go "welcome, Avatar" and show him respect and deference or ask for his help. (Or give us bullshit episodes like The Great Divide but again, another case of really bad episode.) Squidster posted:When she's unhappy, it's not because society is unjust, but because she's not at the top of the heap. Which is why she went to confront Tarrlok over what he was doing to non-benders? It's why she tried to give Kai a chance after he was arrested? If you don't like the character, that's cool. She's got a lot of problems, but arguing that she's only unhappy when she personally is suffering is silly and a direct contradiction to what happens in the show. Squidster posted:No, stop weaseling and re-focussing. Prove she's not an avatar of the Status Quo and that she has meaningful intentions of changing the world. When confronted with suffering she develops noble motives, but by default she's a selfish character who tries to alternately pull rank or headbutt her way through the political system to get what she wants. That isn't bad storytelling or a bad character. Her negative traits are there to show her growth as a human being! I have stated on multiple occasions how she has altered the status quo. Your response keeps being "it doesn't count!!" And yes, she has negative traits, but you're applying negative traits to her which devalue her actual character growth. You're flat-out saying her decision to keep the spirit portals open doesn't count when it is something she spends the entire first episode of Season 3 agonizing about her decision to do. The book is literally called Changes. Here is Korra's speech from the end of Season 2: quote:I've realized that even though we should learn from those who came before us, we must also forge our own path. So that is why I've decided to keep the portals open. Humans can now physically enter the Spirit World, and spirits will be free to roam our world. I will no longer be the bridge. Humans and spirits must learn to live together. My mission will always be to use Raava's light spirit to guide the world toward peace and balance. Harmonic Convergence has caused a shift in the planet's energy. I can feel it. Things will never be the same again. We're entering a New Age. She literally talks about forging a new path and her decision to keep the portals open. Arguing that this is not Korra, unquestioningly, deciding that the world needs to change and taking action towards that change (even if that action is simply not restoring the status quo) is straight-up ignoring her statement her. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 05:22 on Jul 16, 2014 |
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Jul 16, 2014 05:11
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ImpAtom posted:Korra exposed Tarrlok (looked up his stupid name finally) and revealed his corruption. Look at your own phrasing! She revealed corruption. Corruption of what? Well, of a basically just and admirable status quo. Again, I'm not saying Korra doesn't problems. I'm saying that Korra's problems are the kinds of problems that an inherently famous, influential, and powerful protagonist is likely to have. Many of the powerful political figures that Korra deals with are secretly antagonistic or outright evil. But that Korra deals with them at all, that she can just touch down in the center of the super-hierarchical Ba Sing Se and mouth off at the Earth Queen (unlike Aang, who started out in the poorest quarter of the city along with his friends and had to maneuver past all the walls and veils the barred the common man from the halls of true power), says something about who Korra is and where she's situated in the narrative. It's not Korra's fault that she's famous and important and has rich and important friends. It's just the hand she was dealt, is all, and she's playing it the best she can. quote:No, you're just randomly saying she's fighting for the status quo when that explicitly is not what she is doing. If she was fighting for the status quo then she wouldn't have confronted Tarlock and she would have closed the Spirit Portals. She made the concious decision not to close the portals and you're painting that as inaction instead of a choice when it explicitly was not. A choice not to do something to return things to status quo is still a choice. The status quo changes, sure, but it basically changes either by accident, or on its own, or in a way that it was sort of supposed to all along except for being held back by the bad people. Imagine a hypothetical Book 2 in which the entire world was wasting away, in which life and light and color were slowly draining out of the wild places because the very world was being starved of spiritual energy. Korra's desperate to save the world from a total desiccation of the soul, and meets the "Unaloq" guy who seems eager to help her to reconnect the spirit and material worlds... but, oh no! It turns out that, all along, he just wanted to merge with Vatu and attain dark power! After defeating him, Korra's faced with a choice: now that she's seen who dangerous spirits are when riled, should she reconnect the worlds completely, or simply let the world coast along on the temporary infusion of spirit energy it received during the finale? She decides: no, to prevent this problem from ever returning, the two worlds must be completely conjoined. That'd be quite different from a Book 2 in which Korra is endlessly reacting, constantly on the back foot as she defends against move after move from Unaloq, until at the very end it's like, huh, well, these things are open even though I didn't want them to be. I guess I'll keep them that way. Book 1 and 2 Korra are about defense and reaction. Things change for the better, but it's thanks to Korra's efforts to block and counter, not her direct revolutionary ambitions. Korra keeps the world safe while it changes, allows the world to change in ways she deems permissible, because she's well-situated within that world and indeed in a position of authority over it, even if that authority isn't infinite or universally respected.
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Jul 16, 2014 05:22
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Ferrinus posted:Look at your own phrasing! She revealed corruption. Corruption of what? Well, of a basically just and admirable status quo. What? No. Where the hell did you get that. The corruption was that the status quo was a problem. That is why it ended up changed. If it was just a corruption of a just and admirable status quo then the council wouldn't have been dissolved. Ferrinus posted:That'd be quite different from a Book 2 in which Korra is endlessly reacting, constantly on the back foot as she defends against move after move from Unaloq, until at the very end it's like, huh, well, these things are open even though I didn't want them to be. I guess I'll keep them that way. Why is making a choice not a valid action? I really don't get this. If Korra was worried about "defending" then she would have sealed the spirit portals which is demonstrably the easier and safer path and would have returned things to the status quo set up by Wan 10,000 years prior. She instead chose to leave them open and accept the consequences. Korra didn't open the portals but she made the decision to keep them open. She didn't just go "eh, well, whatever, too much effort." ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 05:28 on Jul 16, 2014 |
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Jul 16, 2014 05:24
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ImpAtom posted:What? No. Where the hell did you get that. The corruption was that the status quo was a problem. That is why it ended up changed. If it was just a corruption of a just and admirable status quo then the council wouldn't have been dissolved. Tarrlok was evil. The other councilors weren't. Republic city wasn't. The fundamental divide between benders and normies that the Equalists were supposedly up in arms about (in reality they were all duped by an evil guy and didn't have legitimate qualms) wasn't. There's just, this bad guy, and now we've gotten rid of him, thank goodness, so we can all proceed arm in arm into our bright future. This isn't about whether Republic City is ruled by a Council or a President. I'm telling you that the world of LOK is fundamentally friendly to Korra, while the world of TLA was fundamentally hostile to Aang. Both Korra and Aang want the world to be the best it can be, because they're both good people - but, because of the nature of the setting each character found themselves in, Korra does this by basically defending/correcting the world as she finds it (stopping crimes, defeating bad guys, etc) while Aang does this by fundamentally challenging and toppling the world as he finds it (instituting complete regime change in the world's most powerful nation). This is actually a pretty strong irony, since Korra is by nature aggressive and Aang is by nature passive. quote:Why is making a choice not a valid action? I really don't get this. If Korra was worried about "defending" then she would have sealed the spirit portals which is demonstrably the easier and safer path and would have returned things to the status quo set up by Wan 10,000 years prior. She instead chose to leave them open and accept the consequences. I'm not saying it's not "valid". What the hell makes an action invalid, anyway? I'm saying that it doesn't meaningfully contradict/undo/redeem the fundamentally reactionary nature of Korra in Book 2. Korra makes a choice, but it's because she's put into the position of having to make a choice. If Unaloq had never been born, would Korra have gone to find the portals and open them because it's like, a fundamental injustice that they're closed? I don't think so. Why it's a good thing for them to be one way or the other isn't really clear at all. I think there are interesting parallels to be drawn here between, of all things, the original Star Wars movies and the Star Wars prequels. In Episodes 4-6, the Jedi are on the run. In episodes 1-3, the Jedi are in full power. The first three movies make you wish there were more Jedi, but the three prequels that followed kind of serve to disillusion you with the Jedi as a group.
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Jul 16, 2014 05:35
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Do you know how sometimes in movies, an actor will turn to the director and ask "What's my motivation in this scene?" What would you say Korra's mission statement is in season 1 and 2? Is it 'make thing happen!' or 'make thing *not* happen?' That's proactive vs defensive. Acting vs reacting.
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Jul 16, 2014 05:37
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Ferrinus posted:Tarrlok was evil. The other councilors weren't. Republic city wasn't. The fundamental divide between benders and normies that the Equalists were supposedly up in arms about (in reality they were all duped by an evil guy and didn't have legitimate qualms) wasn't. There's just, this bad guy, and now we've gotten rid of him, thank goodness, so we can all proceed arm in arm into our bright future. The councilors were shown to be a problem because they were all benders. This is why they were replaced by a non-Bender President. There's even Word Of God on this from the creators although I do think it could and should have been better handled. Ferrinus posted:I'm not saying it's not "valid". What the hell makes an action invalid, anyway? I'm saying that it doesn't meaningfully contradict/undo/redeem the fundamentally reactionary nature of Korra in Book 2. Korra makes a choice, but it's because she's put into the position of having to make a choice. If Unaloq had never been born, would Korra have gone to find the portals and open them because it's like, a fundamental injustice that they're closed? I don't think so. Why it's a good thing for them to be one way or the other isn't really clear at all. The problem is that you seem to think that reacting to something suddenly makes it status quo, as if the only choices are Ardent Defend of the Status Quo or Violent Revolutionary, which isn't true in most forms of fiction. Most heroes, even ones with Chosen Destinies, are more reactive, but that doesn't mean they're not trying to change things. We don't know what Korra would have done if Unaloq wasn't born. The writing doesn't go there. Maybe she would have done something anyway because Dark Spirits would still have been a thing because of the upcoming Harmonic Convergence. Maybe she would have made the same decision or maybe she would have made a different one. If Korra had a different adventure that still involved a ton of spirit world stuff and finding out about the Avatar's history and so-on but had to actively make the decision to open the portals or not? Maybe she would have. It's impossible to say because it didn't happen. Squidster posted:What would you say Korra's mission statement is in season 1 and 2? Is it 'make thing happen!' or 'make thing *not* happen?' It would depend on the scene. She certainly was being proactive when, for example, she was trying to get the Republic Fleet to go assist with the war. Edit: Like, again, I don't disagree with you on this. I'd much prefer if Korra was a more proactive character when it came to spiritual matters instead of being far more reactive. However there's a significant difference between her not being that and her being this beloved defender of the status quo. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 05:49 on Jul 16, 2014 |
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Jul 16, 2014 05:40
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ImpAtom posted:The councilors were shown to be a problem because they were all benders. This is why they were replaced by a non-Bender President. There's even Word Of God on this from the creators although I do think it could and should have been better handled. I don't disagree. But, crucially, this is a problem that just sort of resolves itself as a consequence of Korra engaging in straightforward, automatic self-defense. It's not something that oppresses Korra or the other protagonists directly such that the protagonists set out to fix it themselves. quote:The problem is that you seem to think that reacting to something suddenly makes it status quo, as if the only choices are Ardent Defend of the Status Quo or Violent Revolutionary, which isn't true in most forms of fiction. I'm saying that reacting to something makes you reactionary, like, in the really literal sense. Korra responds, defends, counters, because that's just how the stories she's found herself in have tended to work. To this day I don't know why Korra left the spirit portals open, because I don't know what the actual consequences of them being closed or open were supposed to be, because I don't know what it was Korra actually wanted besides "stop Unaloq and/or Vatu from destroying various things I hold dear." I mean, this isn't Korra's fault. Aang, after all, was also technically practicing self defense - he pretty much had no choice to oppose the Fire Nation because the Fire Nation was after him, like it or not. (I guess he could've gone into hiding forever or something, but that's kind of flimsy) I don't think one character is somehow more cowardly or less virtuous than the other. It's just true that Korra is going to be innately more comfortable in her version of the setting than Aang was in his, and that influences the kind of stories the writers tell. Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 05:50 on Jul 16, 2014 |
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Jul 16, 2014 05:47
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ImpAtom posted:It would depend on the scene. She certainly was being proactive when, for example, she was trying to get the Republic Fleet to go assist with the war. It's only at the very end of things when someone pushes the choice into her hands and she decides to radically change her environment.
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Jul 16, 2014 05:47
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Ferrinus posted:I'm saying that reacting to something makes you reactionary, like, in the really literal sense. Korra responds, defends, counters, because that's just how the stories she's found herself in have tended to work. To this day I don't know why Korra left the spirit portals open, because I don't know what the actual consequences of them being closed or open were supposed to be, because I don't know what it was Korra actually wanted besides "stop Unaloq and/or Vatu from destroying various things I hold dear."l. Wan was able to interact and learn from the spirits. That is part of how he learned how to master Bending. Many other characters have shown to have positive or learning experiences from Spirits, including Iroh or Jinora. The reason why the humans and spirits were divided (according to Wan's flashback) was because the worst possible outcome would in fact be bloody and violent, but that was partially due to Vaatu's influence. The worlds being separated was not a natural state of things. It was something Wan did because of his own experiences, remember. There's a lot of arguments made in Season 2 that humans and spirits should be able to co-exist. Heck, Iroh literally lives in the spirit world now. The separation was unnatural in the interest of safety. Squidster posted:I'm talking about a broader sense of her seasonal goals, not moment to moment. In season 2, rogue spirits and civil war threaten a place she's quite fond of. She wants the bad things to Not Happen and her homelands status quo preserved. She wants it to be like it always was. She wants people to not die but that is not the same as wanting it Like It Always Was. She attempted to mediate the despite because she was trying to avoid an all-out conflict. Her homeland's status quo was "not an all-out bloody Civil War." She doesn't want it to be Like It Always Was, she wants it to not be a giant war which seems avoidable. I really can't agree with the idea that trying to avoid conflict is the same as wanting things to never change. There are unarguably times war is necessary and all that, but trying to avoid it when meditation seems possible is not avoiding potential change for the sake of keeping things the way they were. Once it became clear that she couldn't mediate (and her uncle was forcing the war), she went on prison-breaking army-gathering actions. Edit: Also, I just realized how much we've been arguing about this, and it's probably bloated the topic. Sorry. I'll drop it here or after your responses, whichever. I don't disagree with you and it probably isn't going to change each other's mind for me to keep this going. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 06:10 on Jul 16, 2014 |
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Jul 16, 2014 05:59
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ImpAtom posted:Wan was able to interact and learn from the spirits. That is part of how he learned how to master Bending. Many other characters have shown to have positive or learning experiences from Spirits, including Iroh or Jinora. The reason why the humans and spirits were divided (according to Wan's flashback) was because the worst possible outcome would in fact be bloody and violent, but that was partially due to Vaatu's influence. These are all good theories, but I don't know if Korra has thought of or believes any of them. Does Korra value things being "natural" over things being safe? I mean, I guess she does, and probably the return of the airbenders is due only to the portals remaining open, but at the time she made it Korra's decision, sudden, arbitrary, and wholly disconnected from the rest of her action in the season. Up until that very moment, Korra was bent on blocking and/or undoing Unaloq's plans. He's taken over the south pole, we've got unseat him! Oops he's consolidated his political and military power. He's opened a spirit portal, we've got to close it! Oops he forced us to open the second portal for him. He's going to merge with Vatu, we've got to stop his body and Vatu's body from physically colliding! Oops- Of course, as I've said, she sort of had to fail repeatedly or else the season wouldn't have reached its climax at all. It's just Korra's bad luck that she was dropped into a story that kind of required her to (poorly) play defense for 12.9 out of 13 episodes. Anyway, like I said, these are complaints I had about the past seasons that I don't have about this one, so good talk or w/e.
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Jul 16, 2014 06:17
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The Avatar's always been much more of a folk hero than he or she has ever been supported by the ruling authorities; that's been the case way back from Wan to Kyoshi to Roku to Aang and now to Korra. Aang's relationship with Zuko was probably close to an ideal situation, but I can't otherwise remember a single instance through five whole "seasons" of this series where a person of authority actually deferred to the Avatar's decisions if those decisions conflicted with their own goals. And it's not just the ruling class; even the citizenry only ever gives the Avatar the time of day so long as he or she doesn't step on their toes. It's one thing to pay lip service to the idea of a Chosen spiritual leader setting the world to rights, and quite another thing to actually come face to face with this so-called messiah and the reality sets in that he or she's just a person like anyone else...or, worse, just a kid. Being the Avatar gives Korra and Aang a lot of social advantages depending on context, but "People always do what you say" is absolutely not one of them. As far as Aang winning more fights than Korra...eh, I seem to recall Korra winning quite a number of fights and Aang losing a bunch as well, and maybe the overall ratio does favor Aang (if you care about that kind of thing)...but then, folks holding Aang and Korra to different standards is unfortunately old news by now. In any case, this book has been pretty great so far. I've been wanting to see a villainous airbender for a helluva long time and Zaheer is definitely delivering on that front. It actually occurs to me that there shouldn't be anything preventing him from bending, like, anime-style air blades that just cuts someone apart with the wind if he really wants to push airbending to its logical conclusion. I doubt we'll see someone cut apart on this show, but maybe we'll see him really cut loose with something like that.
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Jul 16, 2014 07:07
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So after seeing the past few episodes does this mean that spirit-walking is now considered an 'ultimate' form of airbending, like lightning, metalbending, and bloodbending are for fire, earth, and water? Also, have we seen the Northern Air Temple in this time period yet? Wasn't that the one that was taken over by the inventor and was being re-purposed even in Aang's time? It'll be pretty funny if Tenzin and crew show up looking for an ancient temple to revive a dead culture and actually find super-steampunk mountian city, with all the old Airbender crap destroyed decades ago. I'm digging the Evil-Gaang as villans but I'm interested in hearing their backstory. Did you notice that it quickly went from "They tried to kill baby Korra", to "they tried to kidnap baby Korra"? The show is certainly painting them as menacing even though so far all they have done is a little collateral damage breaking out of their respective prisons. At the last break they even chose to escape rather than trying to further hurt Zuko and crew.
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Jul 16, 2014 07:20
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BrianWilly posted:It actually occurs to me that there shouldn't be anything preventing him from bending, like, anime-style air blades that just cuts someone apart with the wind if he really wants to push airbending to its logical conclusion. I doubt we'll see someone cut apart on this show, but maybe we'll see him really cut loose with something like that. AIRBENDING SLICE!
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Jul 16, 2014 07:24
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BrianWilly posted:In any case, this book has been pretty great so far. I've been wanting to see a villainous airbender for a helluva long time and Zaheer is definitely delivering on that front. It actually occurs to me that there shouldn't be anything preventing him from bending, like, anime-style air blades that just cuts someone apart with the wind if he really wants to push airbending to its logical conclusion. I doubt we'll see someone cut apart on this show, but maybe we'll see him really cut loose with something like that.
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Jul 16, 2014 11:41
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King of Foolians posted:I'm digging the Evil-Gaang as villans but I'm interested in hearing their backstory. Did you notice that it quickly went from "They tried to kill baby Korra", to "they tried to kidnap baby Korra"? The show is certainly painting them as menacing even though so far all they have done is a little collateral damage breaking out of their respective prisons. At the last break they even chose to escape rather than trying to further hurt Zuko and crew. Well, they seemingly murdered at least a few guards and their leader seemed pretty gleeful about locking his captors in a cell and telling them to 'ration their food.' (Even if they pretty obviously could have escaped and had to of if people know about the breakout.) They might have a sympathetic backstory but I really don't think they've tried to limit damage. They ran from the fight because they'd completed their goal and there was no reason to fight three trained waterbenders and a Fire Lord when they clearly had bigger Korra-shaped fish to fry.
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Jul 16, 2014 11:46
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King of Foolians posted:AIRBENDING SLICE! I think you mean "GETSUGA TENSHOU!"  The impressive debate between ImpAtom and Ferrinus (bravo!) reminded me of something: weren't the spirit world and the material world supposed to be overlapping now? What's happened to all the spirits? Did we just drop the spirit thing after episode one, or what? Are there no spirits in Ba Sing Se?
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Jul 16, 2014 14:11
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DrSunshine posted:I think you mean "GETSUGA TENSHOU!" It seems to me that spirits congregate pretty heavily. They're drawn towards certain places, like Unavaatu's spirit vines. In the old series, spirits tended to like nature, so it makes sense that they would by and large avoid cities outside of specific instances like the vines.
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Jul 16, 2014 14:32
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