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Killer robot posted:I think the argument is that suggesting someone not voting with their group is some sort of race/sex/etc traitor is lovely, regardless of whether you use the term "uncle tom" or even whether they're picking a side harmful to their group. I mean, you can argue on the other side too, but the point is that the wording isn't important. You vote for something that's gonna make black kids starve or harder for the community to vote, yeah you're a traitor, also you can suck a dick/vagina. And I'm so glad to be talking about ANYTHING else than that wargames poo poo, that was the most brain deadening derail I've seen in a while, and it went foreeever.
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Jul 17, 2014 14:50
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Shageletic posted:You vote for something that's gonna make black kids starve or harder for the community to vote, yeah you're a traitor, also you can suck a dick/vagina. Did you listen to the talk? He gave several examples where liberal/Democrat policies that were meant to help the black community had the opposite effect, such as affirmative action reducing black graduation rates and the Congressional Black Caucus encouraging the 100-1 crack cocaine-powder cocaine arrest rate.
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Jul 17, 2014 14:59
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He's wrong?
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Jul 17, 2014 15:01
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Shageletic posted:He's wrong? He's supporting his statements with facts and historical data and you're going "nuh-uh" so... 
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Jul 17, 2014 15:04
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Amergin posted:He's supporting his statements with facts and historical data and you're going "nuh-uh" so... So bullshit. The CBC has been fighting the crack disaparity for literal decades. quote:Sharply rebuking the White House, the Congressional Black Caucus said today that President Clinton had not gone far enough in recommending to Congress that the Federal sentencing disparity between crack and powder cocaine be only reduced rather than eliminated. http://www.nytimes.com/1997/07/24/us/black-lawmakers-criticize-clinton-over-cocaine-sentencing.html And do I have to go into the affirmative action bullshit? Just google search, instead of listening to stupid guy on Cspan #30440
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Jul 17, 2014 15:07
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Shageletic posted:You vote for something that's gonna make black kids starve or harder for the community to vote, yeah you're a traitor, also you can suck a dick/vagina. If you aren't part of the group, calling someone a traitor to the group means you are claiming that as an outsider you know better about being a part of that group than the person who is part of it. Which is about as hosed up, condescending, and self congratulatory as it gets. Don't do it.
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Jul 17, 2014 15:27
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Fried Chicken posted:If you aren't part of the group, calling someone a traitor to the group means you are claiming that as an outsider you know better about being a part of that group than the person who is part of it. Which is about as hosed up, condescending, and self congratulatory as it gets. Don't do it. So as a non-Jew I can't make the claim that Group 13 were race traitors? Do go on....
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Jul 17, 2014 15:31
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Well, I'm black and I can definitively say that black republicans are uncle toms (because republicans really aren't the party that's out to help black people at all, in fact they're here to hinder us). Why concern troll, Fried Chicken, when Shag's not really that far off from the truth of the matter?
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Jul 17, 2014 15:31
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nutranurse posted:Well, I'm black and I can definitively say that black republicans are uncle toms (because republicans really aren't the party that's out to help black people at all, in fact they're here to hinder us). Why concern troll, Fried Chicken, when Shag's not really that far off from the truth of the matter? But the black guy on that C-Span interview is also black, so I have one black person saying they're not uncle Toms and another saying they are. What, as a white person, am I supposed to make of all this? 
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Jul 17, 2014 15:39
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Amergin posted:But the black guy on that C-Span interview is also black, so I have one black person saying they're not uncle Toms and another saying they are. Having one of these problems?  Split the difference? Some are Uncle Toms, some aren't?
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Jul 17, 2014 15:46
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Unzip and Attack posted:So as a non-Jew I can't make the claim that Group 13 were race traitors? Do go on.... Yeah, because it gets used to refer to people working to enact genocide and not as a glib blast for someone disagreeing politically. Wait, poo poo, that's exactly how it is used. And even then there's a difference between calling out someone's actions and using a racially defined term. nutranurse posted:Well, I'm black and I can definitively say that black republicans are uncle toms (because republicans really aren't the party that's out to help black people at all, in fact they're here to hinder us). Why concern troll, Fried Chicken, when Shag's not really that far off from the truth of the matter? It is concern trolling to call out supremacism now? Because that's what it is, the same attitude that "I'm better at being one of you than someone who is one of you". I can rail against everything Allen West says and does all day long, but as a white guy I do not get to claim that I know better about the experiences of being a black man then him. It's incredibly ignorant and bigoted to do so. Some slurs you don't get to use unless you are part of the group. "Uncle Tom" and the like are some of them. Fried Chicken fucked around with this message at 15:50 on Jul 17, 2014 |
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Jul 17, 2014 15:47
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If someone is a black republican they are either already rich, or trying to get rich off of wingnut welfare. There are no exceptions to this rule.
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Jul 17, 2014 15:52
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Amergin posted:Finally got around to listening to this interesting discussion on race. The guest made some good points on wanting equality in opportunities and circumstances to be equal rather than outcomes and had some interesting data and stats to back up his points. The problem is that people champion false fixes with 20 year payoffs that May or may not work to justify cutting the support that people are getting now. I'd happily see the phase out of race based admissions and hiring if we also successfully created an equitable opportunity environment through more evenly funded and staffed schools systems and the like. Race based admissions are only racist if you assume that everyone got to college on a level playing field.
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Jul 17, 2014 15:53
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Fried Chicken posted:Yeah, because it gets used to refer to people working to enact genocide and not as a glib blast for someone disagreeing politically. If you think the modern conservative movement's stances concerning minority rights can be described quaintly as mere "political disagreement" with those who, you know, think black people actually deserve voting rights, then I don't know what to tell you. My example was hyperbolic because your statement was made in absolute terms. There's nothing wrong with a white person saying that Allen West is actively working against the interests of African Americans. It's not even really an opinion, and giving that act a "glib" moniker isn't some atrocious supposition of behalf of white people.
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Jul 17, 2014 15:58
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Unzip and Attack posted:If you think the modern conservative movement's stances concerning minority rights can be described quaintly as mere "political disagreement" with those who, you know, think black people actually deserve voting rights, then I don't know what to tell you. My example was hyperbolic because your statement was made in absolute terms. There's nothing wrong with a white person saying that Allen West is actively working against the interests of African Americans. It's not even really an opinion, and giving that act a "glib" moniker isn't some atrocious supposition of behalf of white people. But the voting rights changes haven't reduce black voter turnout rates. They were supposedly going to affect minority voters more, but they don't seem to be.
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Jul 17, 2014 16:06
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Fried Chicken posted:If you aren't part of the group, calling someone a traitor to the group means you are claiming that as an outsider you know better about being a part of that group than the person who is part of it. Which is about as hosed up, condescending, and self congratulatory as it gets. Don't do it. But I am part of that group...? I personally wouldn't talk like that, but I understand if other people would. EDIT: ^^^ And that's b/c of virulent opposition and mammoth effort by voting right groups to make sure that people were informed about the changes. You don't say that its not raining just because you happen to be under a small umbrella. Shageletic fucked around with this message at 16:11 on Jul 17, 2014 |
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Jul 17, 2014 16:07
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Fried Chicken posted:Yeah, because it gets used to refer to people working to enact genocide and not as a glib blast for someone disagreeing politically. Wait, poo poo, that's exactly how it is used. And even then there's a difference between calling out someone's actions and using a racially defined term. Ah, but people on this forum are on the left of the political spectrum, so it's okay for them to use Uncle Tom all the loving time.
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Jul 17, 2014 16:08
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Amergin posted:But the voting rights changes haven't reduce black voter turnout rates. They were supposedly going to affect minority voters more, but they don't seem to be. Yes! Our racist loving with black people's right to vote got black people angry in the short term and didn't effect turnout, therefor you can't point out that we're loving with black people's right to vote!
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Jul 17, 2014 16:08
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mcmagic posted:Yes! Our racist loving with black people's right to vote got black people angry in the short term and didn't effect turnout, therefor you can't point out that we're loving with black people's right to vote! I mean obviously it's too early to tell, but if you predict something to happen and it doesn't happen, you can't just run around screaming "It hasn't happened, YET!" I mean unless you're talking about Iran nuking Israel.
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Jul 17, 2014 16:12
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Amergin posted:I mean obviously it's too early to tell, but if you predict something to happen and it doesn't happen, you can't just run around screaming "It hasn't happened, YET!" Would you like to argue that republicans all over the country AREN'T engaging in a despicable racist effort to deny black and brown people the right to vote or are you arguing that those efforts just aren't that effective?
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Jul 17, 2014 16:15
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Unzip and Attack posted:If you think the modern conservative movement's stances concerning minority rights can be described quaintly as mere "political disagreement" with those who, you know, think black people actually deserve voting rights, then I don't know what to tell you. quote:My example was hyperbolic because your statement was made in absolute terms. quote:There's nothing wrong with a white person saying that Allen West is actively working against the interests of African Americans. quote:It's not even really an opinion, and giving that act a "glib" moniker isn't some atrocious supposition of behalf of white people.  This is not loving complicated. If you aren't part of the group, you don't get to use slurs specific to the group, and you particularly don't get to use them if the context of "I'm a better X than you are, and I'm not even X" like "Uncle Tom" and the other proposals are. Fried Chicken fucked around with this message at 16:17 on Jul 17, 2014 |
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Jul 17, 2014 16:15
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Amergin posted:I mean obviously it's too early to tell, but if you predict something to happen and it doesn't happen, you can't just run around screaming "It hasn't happened, YET!" All the people warning about high inflation just around the corner would suggest that you're wrong.
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Jul 17, 2014 16:15
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Beamed posted:Ah, but people on this forum are on the left of the political spectrum, so it's okay for them to use Uncle Tom all the loving time. This guy gets it.
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Jul 17, 2014 16:16
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mcmagic posted:Would you like to argue that republicans all over the country AREN'T engaging in a despicable racist effort to deny black and brown people the right to vote or are you arguing that those efforts just aren't that effective? I'm saying that their impetus has nothing to do with race and everything to do with reducing fraud with very simple requirements. You need an ID to get a library book but requiring an ID to vote is somehow racist?
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Jul 17, 2014 16:21
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Amergin posted:I'm saying that their impetus has nothing to do with race and everything to do with reducing fraud with very simple requirements. You need an ID to get a library book but requiring an ID to vote is somehow racist? What fraud are you talking about? You do know that in-person voter fraud is virtually non existent right? I'm sure it has NOTHING to do with making it harder for people to vote who are more likely than not to vote against republicans and EVERYthing to do with the non existent, ineffective, imaginary crime of voter fraud.
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Jul 17, 2014 16:24
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Fried Chicken posted:If you think anything going on in this country is comparable with the treatment of those deemed undesirable in Nazi Germany you need to get your head out if your rear end. Even Joe Arpaio doesn't go that far. Lot of points to get to here. Let's go back to your original claim that I am addressing. "If you aren't part of the group, calling someone a traitor to the group means you are claiming that as an outsider you know better about being a part of that group than the person who is part of it. Which is about as hosed up, condescending, and self congratulatory as it gets. Don't do it." I'm not a fan of using terms like "Uncle Tom" and the like because as you said, those terms have racial baggage and aren't constructive. But that's not the point I was addressing. You claimed that unless you are a part of a group you absolutely cannot claim that anyone inside that group is a "traitor to the group". I pointed out why this is wrong by using the Jewish Nazi-collaborator example. I wasn't comparing African Americans to Jews in Poland and you know that. I was demonstrating how your claim, as worded, was dumb. But then you predictably took the easy strawman route followed by calling me a Freeper. Well played I suppose. Also bonus points for using the most racially loaded term in the English language to attack me while telling everyone else they shouldn't use racial terms to attack others. Unzip and Attack fucked around with this message at 16:32 on Jul 17, 2014 |
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Jul 17, 2014 16:26
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Amergin posted:I'm saying that their impetus has nothing to do with race and everything to do with reducing fraud with very simple requirements. You need an ID to get a library book but requiring an ID to vote is somehow racist? There is no fraud to reduce.
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Jul 17, 2014 16:30
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Akin being Akin http://www.mediaite.com/tv/todd-aki...pZqN7bBDhnSQwdV quote:ormer GOP senatorial candidate Todd Akin joined Daily Rundown host Chuck Todd for an uncomfortable interview Thursday morning, in which Akin defended his “legitimate rape” comments that arguably cost him a Senate seat two years ago. He should have called his book No Apologies from the way he is talking about this
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Jul 17, 2014 16:30
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FizFashizzle posted:There is no fraud to reduce. Point of fact: what little voter fraud there is is usually performed by Republican-leaning organizations. Google it, unless you think Google has a liberal bias. Even then, most of their fraud deals with petition stuffing and registration fraud. In reality, almost nobody is successful at voting illegally.
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Jul 17, 2014 16:35
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mcmagic posted:What fraud are you talking about? You do know that in-person voter fraud is virtually non existent right? I'm sure it has NOTHING to do with making it harder for people to vote who are more likely than not to vote against republicans and EVERYthing to do with the non existent, ineffective, imaginary crime of voter fraud. The very best face you can put on Republican voting legislation is they are enacting laws to fight a fake, non-existent problem because it allows them to talk about it a lot and create the false impression that voter fraud is a problem. This becomes part of their larger rhetorical strategy of presenting people who disagree with them politically as fundamentally dishonest, traitorous, and not true Americans. Also when they lose elections, they can pretend it was due to the Voter Fraud Problem, not to broad public disgust with theirown views, which turns losses into opportunities to get the base frothing again. The problem going with that relatively charitable interpretation is that the laws do have a marked tendency to target minority turnout and on various occasions Republican operatives and legislators have gone off-script to openly admit that this was exactly their aim.
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Jul 17, 2014 16:36
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Politician says a stupid thing about rape: Reset the clock folks!
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Jul 17, 2014 16:36
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Beamed posted:Ah, but people on this forum are on the left of the political spectrum, so it's okay for them to use Uncle Tom all the loving time.
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Jul 17, 2014 16:37
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CaptainCarrot posted:Has anyone actually used the term in this thread, rather than mentioning it? It is literally used everytime Allen West, Clarence Thomas, or Ben Carson say anything.
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Jul 17, 2014 16:38
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Unzip and Attack posted:Lot of points to get to here. Let's go back to your original claim that I am addressing. quote:I pointed out why this is wrong by using the Jewish Nazi-collaborator example. I wasn't comparing African Americans to Jews in Poland and you know that. I was demonstrating how your claim, as worded, was dumb. [Quite] But then you predictably took the easy strawman route followed by calling me a Freeper. Well played I suppose. Also bonus points for using the most racially loaded term in the English language to attack me while telling everyone else they shouldn't use racial terms to attack others.[/quote] Yes, how dare I point out that your whining about wanting to use identity slurs applies to all identity slurs.
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Jul 17, 2014 16:39
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Beamed posted:It is literally used everytime Allen West, Clarence Thomas, or Ben Carson say anything. Should be easy enough to find quotes then.
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Jul 17, 2014 16:40
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Beamed posted:It is literally used everytime Allen West, Clarence Thomas, or Ben Carson say anything. Then I'm sure finding an example won't be that hard, since Thomas was part of a controversial SC decision recently.
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Jul 17, 2014 16:40
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Beamed posted:It is literally used everytime Allen West, Clarence Thomas, or Ben Carson say anything. Can you cite some examples? I've been a pretty steady DD reader since before my reg date and I can think of maybe a handful of times i've seen the term used (and they were pretty extreme - think black politicians agreeing with crack vs cocaine sentencing). Definitely not in the last few years.
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Jul 17, 2014 16:40
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Fried Chicken posted:It is concern trolling to call out supremacism now? Because that's what it is, the same attitude that "I'm better at being one of you than someone who is one of you". Fried Chicken posted:I can rail against everything Allen West says and does all day long, but as a white guy I do not get to claim that I know better about the experiences of being a black man then him. It's incredibly ignorant and bigoted to do so. I wasn't talking about the use of the word Uncle Tom, heck, you yourself were just talking about Fried Chicken posted:calling someone a traitor to the group I don't care to police the white forumites of SA on whether or not they use the word Uncle Tom, because the white forumites of SA say way more racist things on the reg (and no one routinely gives a poo poo; I, for one, would love it if the mods policed things to make the forums more friendly towards minorities, but that's not the SA we have). I, however, will gladly use it and call a spade a spade or an Allen West an awful loving uncle tom. I just find it strange that pointing out how a person advocating/espousing political beliefs that actively harm members of their own already downtrodden race is a traitor to their own race is taken as a condescending and self congratulatory act. I would love it if more white people spoke up about how conservative beliefs harm minorities, regardless of the packaging around said toxic beliefs. Much better than when white people either don't give a poo poo or hold those beliefs themselves.
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Jul 17, 2014 16:41
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CaptainCarrot posted:Has anyone actually used the term in this thread, rather than mentioning it? This particular thread? I'd have to look. But it has been dropped in earlier iterations, usually talking about Tim Scott, Ben Carson, Herman Cain, Clarence Thomas, and Allen West.
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Jul 17, 2014 16:43
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Tigntink posted:Can you cite some examples? I've been a pretty steady DD reader since before my reg date and I can think of maybe a handful of times i've seen the term used (and they were pretty extreme - think black politicians agreeing with crack vs cocaine sentencing). Definitely not in the last few years. It was all over the place when the SCOTUS gutted the VRA dude.
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Jul 17, 2014 16:45
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